Out of the blue the wife gave me permission to spend a bunch of cash on the teener. I have the slightest idea what I did right or what she did wrong.
I have to check out the finances but I'd like to do a 6 conversion. I know diddly about the flat 6. I need some help.
My end goal is to basically have a street legal track car. I like the small high reving 6's but like I said I know nadda. The only thing that it has to have is carbs. I'm not into FI and ECU's.
What's my best engine choice? I'm about 1/4 way through the 911 performance handbook trying to educate myself. I can build an engine if thats my best option.
I should also ask the average conversion cost.
If I were doing what you are planning, I would build a short stroke 2.5 or 2.8.
Short stroke 2.5 is 2.7S Pistons and Cylinders with a 2.2 crank.
Short stroke 2.8 is a 3.0 Case (from 76 turbo or eurospec Carrera), and a 2.2 crank.
Build either with some hot cams and you get a bitchin high rev screamer of a motor.
Won't run for shit down low, but when it comes on the cams, look out!!!
Actually the rebuild cost is the same for a 2.2 as it is for a 3.2. The costs are the parts to convert the /4 into a /6. You have to buy a bunch of parts to do it. The engine is the smallest cost. BTDT!
I was he middle of doing paint and flairs on my teener when my wife said you should do the six conversion now. I put a 3.0 with headers and 964 cam. It pulled 200HP at the rear wheels. If thats not enough for you nothing will be. Also from what I read this is about the max for a 901. Keeping the 901 keeps your costs down and its a sweeter shifting tranny. I have an SC as a DD w/ a 915 so I feel I can directly compare the two boxes. The other day on a back road trip I got caught up in a corvette club event and had no problem hanging with the z06 guys/ ZR1s left everyone for dead.
I have already have a 911 front suspension with 3.5 spacing and A calipers.
Can I have you wife?
Really, I'd think twice about a built /4. It could be a lot easier and damn fun when its done
Parts list.
Oil tank.
Oil filter console.
Oil filter.
Oil filler neck.
Dipstick.
Oil filler cap.
Oil filter adapter rubber boot and snap ring.
Suction line from tank to coupler.
Oil line coupler.
Oil line from coupler to oil cooler.
Engine mounted oil cooler (modified or stock.. stock is more expensive)
Oil scavenge line from engine to tank (stock hard metal line is hard to find. Easy to get the 911 rubber line to replace it.)
Engine mount. (Recommend the Rich Johnson mount.)
Engine tin set.
Early 911 Flywheel, or aftermarket conversion flywheel. (To hook to 901 transmission)
Heat exchangers or headers (headers are cheaper, but no heat for interior)
911 muffler.
Either 40IDA3C Weber carbs and linkage or PMO Carbs and linkage.
914/6 throttle bellcrank, rod and cable bracket. plus 914/6 throttle cable.
You also have to modify the engine wiring harness to hook it to the car, cut the holes for the oil tank, remove the stock 4 cylinder motor mounts, and weld in the six cylinder motor mounts.
And if you are going to do this, you need to upgrade the brakes. I recommend the Boxster brake conversion. Unless you purchase some of the pricey billet hubs, this will more than likely require a 5 lug conversion. That means new wheels.
See where this can add up????
But you can also do the rootworks method and make some of your own tin etc.
I don't 100% agree that they all cost the same to rebuild, example is 2.2/2.4 heads can be had on ebay for $500 fully rebuilt, etc. There are deals if you take your time.
I'm serious about buying a whole 911, major part source and then part out the rest.
I can't do the donor deal. All my garage space is taken up. The HOA doesn't go for parts cars in the driveway.
I don't want to go too rootwerks either. About the only thing I'd consider is an alternate oil tank and mounting location. Is there any savings in it?
I did my conversion in my garage in Fontana, WI, just west of you about 30 miles. If you are interested, I do have some headers, a Quick-Six mounting bar, and a conversion flywheel (if you are using an engine larger than the 2.0 liter) that I had originally used when I did my conversion. I have since switched to a Rich Johnson mount and heat exchangers, so these were parts taken off of my original conversion.
I do get up there on occasion, so if I can provide any advice, please PM me.
I would go buy a book called "Porsche 911 Performance Handbook" by Bruce Anderson, then read it cover to cover.....twice. The motor is the single most expensive piece and can cause the most grief.
Take your time, do your research. With the economy being what it is, shopping is gud. I see a couple motors a week F/S in the Pelican 911 classifieds.....but be ready to jump. Good deals don't last long over there. As I've said elsewhere when I'm "on the hunt", I'll check there 3-4 times a day.
Personally, I think the 3.0L is the best production aircooled motor Porsche ever made.
in this economy you should save your money and pop in a 1911 or 2056. you wife will be impressed. maybe put some of those funds to your suspension and brakes - a new dress for your wife, then take her to a nice dinner and threatre.
talk to McMark - http://www.originalcustoms.com/engines.php
I would sell off what you have, combine that with the "Honey" Money, and buy either a Real 914-6 (HotRod or no) or an already completed -6 Conversion. If you do Due Diligence, you can buy alot of car right now. Plus you could drive it Now.
T.C.
I gotta jump on board with the big 4 bandwagon... mine is an estimated 140hp -4, with a light fywheel... and whoa nellie is it fun
you can do a jake kit for much less than your 10k price-tag, and get about 150-175+ hp. that and 5-lug conversion (under 1000, if you shop around) and you will be pretty happy
If you start down this rabbit hole, I suggest that you never total up the receipts. If you total them BEFORE you finish the six conversion, you will not finish it, ever. If you total it afterword, you will kick yourself every time you drive the car.
I did a rough off the cuff estimate on what I spent on my car.... I could have a new GT3 for what I currently have in it, and I have not finished it. I still have lots to do.
But the bottom line for me is that "I" built this car. Anyone with a healthy checkbook can go buy a GT3. There are a few people out there like me who can build a car like mine. And a new GT3 would be generic Porsche, and not an extension of my personality and desires.
Bottom line, what do YOU want to do.... Forget all the financial advice, forget the work involved, do you want to BUILD a 914/6??????? It is not a logical thing, it is an emotional thing. You have to want to do this, and want it bad enough so that the cost and effort is irrelevant.
hey...I'm just up the road from you (in brookfield). I'm in the middle of my conversion. I've got all my parts and ready for reassembly (probably this spring). I got an 84 911 with 65k miles and used it as a donor and parted the rest. So, outside of my labor/time i'm at about a break even. If I would have just purchased everything outright I'd probably have about 10k into it. Parting out took a long time but basically bought all of my parts.
Out of the blue the wife gave me permission to spend a bunch of cash on the teener. I have the slightest idea what I did right or what she did wrong.
Wow! Better strike while the iron is hot!
What a gal! I bet she mows the lawn too? Tell her there should be more gals like her...can I have her talk to my wife and do some convincing?
Be careful...Maybe it's a set up?
I don't want this to be another four vs six debate. I like them both. But when I dream about what the car will have when it's done, it's a six. The wife gave me permission so my dream is a bit closer to reality. She's pretty cool.
Anyhow, What I was really hoping for was some advice on engines. Similar to what Clay said in the second post. I like the small to medium cc screamers. Are there certain combo's that work the best? Anything I should stay away from?
good deal, man. then I'd listen to what clay said. he's one of the most knowledgeable 914'rs I know, and if I wanted to know how to do a -6 right, he'd be the first person I'd call.
I ran a 2.4 w/2.2S pistons and e cams. Match porting, webers, not much else. Plenty of torque on the street, was awesome for autoX. I had the original six, no flares with and 7" fuchs. At one autoX, I let the top time of the day driver (driving a highly modified no $ spared 911 with huge wheels & tires) take me for a fun run. With both of us in the car, he beat his top time of day by half a second. I eventually sold this car to a friend of mine who has raced it successfully in SCCA and PCA with many wins. Great combo, very reliable, streetable, not big $. You could add more cam but I was happy with the drivability of the "E" cams. hth
The fun of the whole thing is building it. I've built several. I have a vision and then run with it. I lost my ass on all but one. That one was bought by the Pesi Cola Bottling Co. I got tired of selling them when I was done. This time I promised myself I'd buy a car that I loved (914). Then I would go nuts and build my dream car. I don't want someone elses car. I don't want to wreck an original 6 nor do I have the cash for one. I want to build the car I have. A rust free 73 Zambesi (always loved that color). It was bent up but I straightened it out and I only need a couple of pieces to complete it. I have a 911 front suspension. I'm going 5 lug. I'm halfway there already. As mentioned in the first post, I have the 911 performance handbook. I'm reading it now. I was just hoping to get some instant gratification from the knowledgeable 6 guys here. I guess I was looking for a recipe. Using this block, with these pistons and this cam, will give you this.
Like I said. I know nada about the 6. I was hoping for a quick education.
Here is what I would do if I were going to build a small motor..
Start with a sand cast aluminum case (68 or older).
Get a 2.2S crank and rods.
2.7S pistons and cylinders.
2.7 S heads drilled for twin plug.
Turbo oil pump.
Do all the recommended case mods.
906 cams.
MFI with either high butterfly or slide valve stacks.
Twin plug distributor.
It would look something like this......
What you get is a 2.5 short stroke screamer that wont pull down low, but will really come on strong when you get it on the cams.....
Thanks. That's what I'm looking for. I like carbs but MFI works for me too. It's spendy but I'm somewhat familiar with it. I had an Alfa with it.
OK, Now I see that you are already committed to the Zambizi and have the suspension. Buy Larry's 3.2 and you a Big step forward. If you start a build on a motor, commit at least $10k. Larry's 3.2 will give you power and reliabilty. Have Dr Evil build your 901 and maybe have a spare
Have fun and thank your lucky stars that you have a wife like that.
T.C.
Brian,
Yep...i had a few diversions over the years. Last time I saw you I had the 911 donor and the 4 was still in the car. But now I have ALL the parts, engine is out and sold, the 911 was totally parted out (that alone took a good year...won't do that again!) and sold off...I'm now rounding 3rd base and heading for home!
I vote for a big /6. Moah power, yet reliable. And they come with all the perks of a modern FI system.
I get better fuel mileage in my 914 with the 3.6L than i get in my 2002 Jetta.
Andy
I guess I'm old school where induction is concerned. I understand carbs and MFI. You don't need a degree in electronics to tune or fix them. You just need to be mechanically inclined. Plus carbs or MFI are period correct for the vision I have for the car.
I did mine a few years ago. Yes the parts are expsnsive but if you look around you can find bargins. I used the Patrick bar and I have not had problems. I am running a 3.0 with 40mm PMO's. I had the dist recurved at I.A.E. in Detroit. Barry is great to work with. I also used a Patrick modified oil cooler with AN fitting. Stock oil tank. Runs great and is a lot of fun on the track. Next is bigger wheels and tires, hard to keep up with 205/50 15 in the corners.
Good luck
Van914
I'm about 7.5k deep into my conversion and almost completed. It has taken a complete year, patience, awesome finds, and every cash side job I could find but I'm nearly there.
Do it.
I'm going to do it. One year is out for me. I'm thinking more like 3 to 5 years. Until I get heat in the garage working in the winter is out of the question. Winter up here is at least 6 months long. Buying the furnace for the garage is taking a backseat to buying the 6. I gotta have my priorities.
I have a 2.8 Twin plug, recently finished. Nearly $20,000 invested in Build of engine.
Bang for the buck modern day: 3.2
If your old school MFI
My 2 cents. I am probably not a good example on how to do a six conversion because this is my first and I've never driven a 914 before diving in so warning right up front. I purchased a 75 roller with the plan to do as much as possible by myself to save money ( insert laughs here ) . On 12/1/2006 my chassis was delivered by the seller. No engine,transmission or wheels. But came with a fair amount of parts. I've never taken on a project like this but I am a DIYer in general. I had visions of creating a M471/GT clone. I wasn't even thinking about an engine for the first year other than I knew I was doing a six. So my theory was get the chassis as up to date as possible to handle whatever power I was going with. That meant front and rear suspension completely gone over and elephant racing poly bronze suspension bushings. Rear swing arms were boxed for strength. Front struts were replaced with 911 3 inch mounting ear for 911 M brake calipers front and rear. 20mm vented rotors front and rear with 911 ebrake. I added a 19mm master cylinder and a 19mm adjustable front sway bar. Stock 914 torsion bars with rear Koni shocks and 140 lb. springs. Every nut,bolt,washer ect. were cleaned up or replaced. So that took me thru the first year basically working weekends only. Then I turned to the body. I only was going to do this project if I went with metal flares it's the look I wanted. I was lucky enough to get in on the AA group buy of flares. Believe me lining up and then cutting off good body parts was a little un-nerving at first but once you're cutting keep going ! I welded the flares myself and it was a great learning experience. All that have seen these in person comment what a great job I did. I prepped and primed the flares and was done until final paint. I then directed my efforts on an engine and transmission. Found a pristine 901 tranny for $100.00 so that was checked off the list. Then found a 1978 911SC 3.0 in N.C. for a decent price ( $3000.00 ) and purchased that. I am familiar with the 3.0 because I have one in my SC. Very strong motor with few problems that makes good power and torque. Rich Johnson motor mount,throttle cable setup,oil cooler mods and I'm good to go. I am now in the final stretch of my 3 year resto and I've spent aprox. $25,000.00 so I am way over my original budget. But the pride I feel knowing I did it myself is priceless. Sorry for the long reply but my point is if you have the time and not too concerned about the money do the resto yourself. Good luck.
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