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Posted by: Tom_T Feb 24 2010, 09:33 PM

Motor Trend on-line had an article in Sept. 2008 about a possible return of the 914, which I came across last year ......

Now that the dust has apparently settled from the VW vs. Porsche corporate control battle, with VW in control - one must wonder if this design study will now come to market??

OKAY - UPDATE - And to be clear - I'm also asking which styling concept you like, both or neither - as well as if you'd possibly buy one if it came about??

But you gotta love Sir Andy's brevity as you read on this thread: "No" (to the will they question only).

If you look at the blue version - it clearly has the VW roundel on the front.
However, the gold & more 914-like concept sketch has what appears to be or could be the shield shaped Porsche Crest on the front deck!

Full article at:
http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0809_future_vw_porsche_914/index.html

Concept Sketches at: - these are also linked at the full article above

GOLD 914 Targa Roadster - http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0809_future_vw_porsche_914/photo_01.html

BLUE VW Targa Coupe - http://www.motortrend.com/future/future_vehicles/112_0809_future_vw_porsche_914/photo_02.html


~ Personally, I prefer this styling concept myself!



A guy named Hans L. on here who is involved with the 914-6 resto shop up in Camarillo, also works/worked his "regular day job" at the VW-Audi Design Center in Santa Monica CA, doing such design concepts for them.

Maybe he can enlighten us all????


Cheers!
Tom
///////

Posted by: Dr. Roger Feb 24 2010, 10:44 PM

I'll take one.... IN YELLOW!!

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 24 2010, 10:49 PM

First car hits it out of the park! I'll take one!

Posted by: montoya 73 2.0 Feb 24 2010, 11:00 PM

I'd take one if the numbers were in the 30ish!

Posted by: jcambo7 Feb 25 2010, 12:14 AM

I like the yellow concept. Just a thought though. Does anyone think that a new era 914 would make the old 914 value go up or down?

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:14 AM

Hard to say, since other collectibility & economy issues come into play.

If the 911/912 series has anything to reflect on what might happen though, the older 60's & 2nd gen 70's 911's have held up well with the later series of 911-ish models coming out every so often since the 80's to present. If that's any indicator, then the original 914s should hold up pretty well.

Plus all those years of denigrating the 914 as "not a real Porsche" tended to have more seen as disposable, so their numbers have diminished perhaps faster that the comparable 911/912 series (relative to total production for each).

It looks like everybody so far shares my taste with the gold/yellow version which is closer to a 914's styling.

If VW is smart, they'll do the blue one as a vW "new Sirocco" or something under their badge, with the gold/yellow one as purely a Porsche badged vehicle.

With the Boxters climbing so high in price now, they probably need a more basic entry level Porsche for the new entrants, as well as for us old school simple sports cars lovers!

I could see this with a flat H-4 & H-6, but would really like to see them shed the weight of water-cooled - & get back to basics with an air/oil-cooled motor line-up again! Also with a true clutched 5 or 6/7 speed stick & no other "helper tech" on them.

Geez - has everybody in the new cars today forgotten how to drive now!!?? I mean most new cars from mid-range up & the silly-utes do everything but wipe your @$$ for you! ...stability control, i-drive ~ no ~ it-drive, PDK (push de Klutch) auto-matic double-clutch for you, drive-by-wire (oh there's a good one - source it from Toyota - NOT), need I drone on!!??

I wish Hans Lupine would weigh in here & tell us if this might be in the line-up soon!!??

Posted by: johannes Feb 25 2010, 06:16 AM

Porsche builts 100 000 cars a year. They don't need an entry level car that will ruin their margins and image. The Boxster IS the 914 sucessor. Every time an executive from Porsche was interviewed he said that there will never be a model cheaper than the Boxster.

Posted by: zymurgist Feb 25 2010, 06:23 AM

I like the yellow one a lot, but the door handles just don't work for me. If you're going with 914 styling cues, you gotta have the door handles.

Posted by: carr914 Feb 25 2010, 07:05 AM

I don't know. I think they have figured out Rust Prevention, which would ruin the whole concept.

Posted by: carr914 Feb 25 2010, 07:07 AM

I don't think it would change much. People wondered the same thing when the new Beetle came out.

T.C.

Posted by: '73-914kid Feb 25 2010, 07:57 AM

Here's an idea then. If Porsche wants to improve their image, drop the boxster. I know I will get flamed for this, as many of you have boxsters, but why not go back to older, simpler times. Make the 914 the "new" boxster. I see way too many boxsters on the road here Vista alone, and they have little character. This new 914 concept has lots of character.

When you look at how many cars are produced, vs. how many are sold in a dealership here in the states, I think they need a cheaper entry level car again.

My worthless 2cents

Posted by: detoxcowboy Feb 25 2010, 09:52 AM

I agree, the Boxster is the "Chicks" "Porsche" at least in So. Cal. where I have heard it called that a few times.. I hope they leave the 914 the 914 and just create a new bastard "peoples porsche" volksporsche. Retro, Old School re interpreted is good for neither the new or the vintage..

Posted by: Jon Fernandes Feb 25 2010, 10:09 AM

They already have a new Scirroco out, at least they were selling them in Portugal last summer when I was there, took some pics at a VW dealer. I'll look for em.

Posted by: zymurgist Feb 25 2010, 10:15 AM

That's what they used to call the 914, back in the day.

Posted by: johannes Feb 25 2010, 10:44 AM

They are speaking of having the Boxter and Cayman available with 4 cylinder engines. This is to achieve lower Co2 emissions and have lower prices without investing in a new car.

Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 25 2010, 11:00 AM

The new Mini didn't hurt the old Mini and it wasn't even built by a British car company.

I'd say more interest in our old version= price holds even in a down market and slight up tick when the economy surges. And yes, Priced in the high 25 mid 30K would sell a bunch!

Posted by: RobW Feb 25 2010, 11:09 AM

I agree... the gold one would be a sale for me. The styling is much more 914 minded. I would want the 200 HP version. The problem with any "new" platform is that it needs to be independent of the 911 flagship. Hence you end up with a sedan and an SUV far earlier than what "WE" want.

I could see Porsche moving 100,000 to 200,000 new 914s for $30-$35M, but what would happen to the Boxster, and potentially the 911... that's why I think you'll never see it.

With one exception... you will need a platform for electric / hybrid technology....

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:28 PM

Johannes - I have to humbly disagree on that point. Compared to our venerable 914s, the Boxster is a bloated 3000 lb. water cooled & relatively taller monster, loaded with the modern "comfort extras". Even Porsche recognized that & offered the "stripped down" Boxter Speedster this year (with a useless top).

Look at the Mazda Miata's success - it is the mass produced Lotus Elan of these days, & the "experts" said it wouldn't do well when it came out - boy were they wrong!

IMHO - there is room in the marketplace for a Porsche made competitor to the Miata, BMW Z4, Honda 2000 - but in the small, unloaded mid-engined variety such as this concept study.

This Gold/Yellow concept is much lower slung (read lower CG - center of gravity) which looks to be 2/3's or 3/4's the size & wheelbase of the Boxster, which would be a return to the go-kcart like handling of our beloved Teeners! Closer to the sixe of the current sports car competitors noted above, as well as the Lotus Elan & our 914s.

If Porsche fits-out & markets this right as a no nonsense fun sports car, then it will sell very well, because there are a lot more buyers out there who would buy a 914-ish sports car, if they didn't have to worry so much about NOS parts, rust, people who know how to service them, etc., etc. They're looking for a reliable but fun daily driver or 2nd car for fun, which they don't need to get a "914 PhD" to keep up.

Market segmentation is THE name of the game today - & a game which Porsche plays well - as seen by a 4-door Porsche & SUV in the line-up today! Who'd have thunk 20 years ago that Porsche would EVER build those!?

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:30 PM

Gotta have those fine & slick flush 914 recessed handles!!!!
... but they could strengthen the weak points up from our 914's ones!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:31 PM

I read this earlier on my am quick check & you just killed me!!!!!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:36 PM

... in part!

The Boxster/Cayman has it's place, now that price-wise & equipment loading has it up to be the Mid-Range Porsche today.

But they absolutely need a new back to basics K.I.S.S. Porsche for sports car enthusiasts whole do not want nor need the thrills, as well as those who don't want a mortgage-sized monthly payment for a DD sports car.

BTW - I was Uni Class of `70 down your way! We played Vista HS when we were still in the old Avocado CIF League in the late 60's! Long A** bus rides up there for games in the pre-I-5 days though!!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:41 PM

My guess is that Porsche could produce a no frill 4 cyl. version in the $30k +/- range, with the higher hp/torque 4 7 6 ranging up to the Boxter/Cayman start range - once BS options are added on.

But guys & gals, most of us over a 3-5 year period are spending almost that much keeping our venerable 914's running, restored & looking purdy - once you add in all the tools & garage goodies & equipment, &/or outside shop costs!!

I don't think it's a leap to get one of these as your workhorse DD, & use the classic 914 on weekends & FUN!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:43 PM

In fact TC - for all makes & types of vehicles - they've found that the "Retro styling" sells VERY well with both the Baby Boomers like me & younger buyers!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:48 PM

Sorry Joe - but I have to disagree on not doing a GOOD Retro design "new 914" - as I'd probably get one for my DD!!

As TC said - the original Bug collector craze was not hurt, and in fact it renewed interest in collecting the humble Bugs! Look at what they sell for in good condition today - & I recall billboards for them when I was in HS in San Diego in the late `60's advertised for $600, then $800 new!!!!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:50 PM

Well then, maybe Gen.2 New Scirocco or something else, since the Blue one definitely does NOT have the styling ques to be the "New Ghia"!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 02:56 PM

Yeah, but that was those jealous Tail-dragger folks who were tired of paying more & then getting beat in the curves by 914s!!!!

Actually, they were a "Chicks" Porsche in SoCal for an entirely different reason, since they were Babe Magnets & you could "share shifts" with a gal on your center seat/cushion!

Detox knows that, cuz he told me it still attracts the Gals today!
... but I'm long married now & cannot say!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 03:00 PM

Well then, they'd better figure out how to really lighten up those hogs to have enough zip with a 4!

That was also an interim move, since they were cash strapped trying to take over VW. With that reversed now & VW having the capital to invest in new product lines, you can probably expect Porsche's design studio to start churning out several concepts - some of which will surely hit the market to expand their "new order" product line. - IMHO

Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 25 2010, 03:11 PM

In answer to the original question: No. Porsche does not need it, nor do they want it. They want to keep their Boxster as the base/entry level model, because it is nicely profitable for them. They don't want to steal sales from that line with a new line that they would have to invest (probably) billions in, only to have lower profit margins.

We are unlikely to see anything truly 914-like from VW either, as pure sports cars are not their thing. It is possible that Audi might be able to market such a car, but not that likely because they are about "luxury" more than performance.

I think the Elise is about as close to a 914 as we'll see for a long time to come...

--DD

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 03:15 PM

... on the EV/Hybrid platform options, which Porsche will also try to offer in the Boxster/Cayman & 911 series,
................... as evidenced by the pending release of the Hybrid 911 GT3 (#??) announced by them this month.

As for the Boxster conflict - I don't see it as a market strategy nor segmentation problem, because:

1. - This 914 Redux at $30-50k for various levels of models & engines
2. - Boxster/Cayman is $50-80k now for that range & "s" versions
3. - 911 etc. are $80 or $100k & up now IIRC
4. - someone posted the 928 Redux here a while back which they say will top the 911 prices, alongside the 4 door Pano's
5. - then the SUV for the wife to drive the kids to school off to the side!

BTW folks - Porsche has already gone on record in the past, that they want a new more basic Porsche to slot in below the Boxster/Caymen series - so the question it what will it look like, drive like, power plants, equipment & options fitment??

Maybe after we get more postings on here, I'll forward the link to the PCNA & PAG CEO's to get them thinking!?

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 03:19 PM

Well Dave, I've stated my contrary opinions & whys.

But - just suppose they did offer this or something very similar - would you & the other naysayers have an interest in it??

Posted by: wayne1234 Feb 25 2010, 03:41 PM

I hate to say it but I think it looks alot like a 2000-2005 Toyota mr2. but I kinda like those also

Posted by: MDG Feb 25 2010, 03:45 PM

If you look at pictures of the Scirocco, you'll see where the person that did this concept took their cues from. And the new Scirocco has been out there for awhile - just not in North America. I think for VW, this is their new 914/Ghia



As for Porsche, look at the price point of a 914-6 and a 911 when they were new. As the costs increased over the decades the 914, keeping pace with the 911, would be priced right where the Boxster/Cayman is now.
As I said the last time these two drawings came up, Porsche is making the 'new' 914 and has been for some time.

It's just not the one that a lot of 'original' 914 owners were hoping for. There is no chance Porsche is ever going to completely re-invent themselves and start building a no frills Miata type car. They never have - they aren't going to start.

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 03:47 PM

Wayne - Hey there in chilly Brooklyn IN!!!

If that was the MR2 that looked like the "pocket Ferrari" - then it was their best styling of all for that model & I loved it!!!!!

However, they could've & should've picked a better nomenclature for that than "MR2", because that was something my generation said to others as a cut-down (slam) - meaning that person was a "Mental Retard Too" - & that comes to mind every time I see MR2!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 03:56 PM

Beg to differ Mike - but the 356, 911/912 & 914 were no frills but well engineered & excellent performing sports cars. Today you HAVE to have AC, 30 disc CDs with 18 speakers-tweeters-woofers-boomers, seat fanny-warmers, defrost everything (even in SoCal), double-clutch help, stabilization control & bad driver assistance, etc. in Porsches & other upper price point cars.

Most of these add-ons are there to justify ever escalating prices - as happened in the housing market over the 2000's with the McMansions (maybe more prevalent here in SoCal). Even the homebuilders have gotten smart & are now building & selling more plain vanilla homes at a lower price point in this "new economy"! Expect the same in autos & everything for awhile!

Thanx for the Pic! These 2 studies were done by VW's design group, & IIRC that guy I mentioned on here - Hans Lupine had a hand in this Sirocco design, as well as another concept which VW showed at the 09 NY or similar Auto Show.

Great debate & discussion though everyone! I'm enjoying hearing all the opinions!

Posted by: zymurgist Feb 25 2010, 03:56 PM

I thought the Toyota MR2 Spyder was about as close as you could get to a 914. Lightweight, mid engine, under $25K, and topless. Apparently Toyota didn't sell all that many, since it went away while the Miata soldiers on (getting bigger and heavier in its middle age).

The Elise is awesome, but for its price I'll take a Corvette and have all that torque.

Posted by: jhadler Feb 25 2010, 04:19 PM

The MR-Spyder suffered from a few conceptual flaws that doomed it before it even sold a single car.

1) NO trunk. That's right, there was a storage compartment in the front of the car that was about the size of a case of beer. And then a space behind the seat large enough for a gym bag or a brief case. - this - was a huge shortcoming for the car, probably the worst.

2) The car looked like a Pokemon character.

The following points I learned by co-driving an MR-Spyder to Nationals the first year they were eligible. These would have been invisible to the average joe car buyer. But were possible deal-breakers for someone wanting a cone-carver.

3) Mac struts all the way around. Cheap yes. superior handling? Debatable. It's not like that was new approach for the MR2...

4) Poorly baffled gas tank, would starve through sweepers at less than 1/3 tank.


I personally liked it. Had a really nice motor, very nimble and very light (lighter than the miatas it was competing against). But I think the lack of storage space doomed it in the open market.

-Josh2

Posted by: MDG Feb 25 2010, 04:35 PM

Right. But that's not my point. The cars you mentioned may be 'no frills' by todays standard. Not so much when they were new.

But my point has nothing to do with that; it's COST I'm talking about. A new 914-6 was priced uncomfortably close to a 911. It was never (1970's pricing) a $2500.00 car. In fact, all the other models you mentioned were also pricey in their day.

What I am saying is Porsche is not about to change their tune and make a $30k car, or going back to 1970, a $1,850.00 914-6.

They are making it now. It's called a Cayman. If that thing had come with a targa top, and the Boxster hadn't come at all, every auto journalist in the world would have gone, 'Huh, Porsche made a new 914-6.'

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 04:42 PM

Thanx for the input on the MR2 Josh.

I think you're referring to the Mk3 Spyder, whereas I was referring to the pocket Ferrari Mk2 version of 1990-99+/- below - with the one in the top-left inset being the stock config.:




However, I do not know if it had any better trunk nor stowage space than the current gen. MR2 Spyders??

Ergo - one of the bennies of our beloved 914s! I used to pack gear & clothes for 2 for 2 week camping trips, skiing, bicycling, etc. with mine back in the day! A definite advantage to having F&R trunks totaling 16 CF!

Posted by: jhadler Feb 25 2010, 04:48 PM

I co-drove a turbo MR-2 as well. It was a nice car, but I think the 4 mac struts hampered it's performance more on the Mk2 than it did on the Spyder. Maybe because of the weight, maybe the geometry was different.

The turbo was a kick ass fast car drive with very minimal tweaks. I found it was less nimble though, partly because of the weight, and partly because it was softly sprung. But it was a nice car, had a good feel, and the motor could deliver some substantial punch with nary a complaint if you asked it to. Nice looks too. Had that watered-down-ferrari-carved-from-a-bar-of-soap look to it.

At least it had a trunk...

-Josh2

Posted by: jhadler Feb 25 2010, 04:50 PM

Regarding the above Mk-2 pics...

Who in their right mind would plumb an intercooler all the way up to the front of the nose???

-Josh2

Posted by: agentblr Feb 25 2010, 04:58 PM

The 4 zilinder entry model is coming. Look no further than the 86-88 924S. The 944/951 become bloated and expensive and Porsche knew they were losing market share. Funny because the current economy is mirroring that time period today. I doubt we will see an H4...probably a federlized version of the Audi S3 260hp 2.0T motor.

Posted by: johannes Feb 25 2010, 05:44 PM

Totally agree with you. They don't need it and they don't want it. And they don't know how to be competitive on that entry level segment. For now ! ...
They could change their mind and strategy if a drastic change occured on the car market and oil price ... And that is not an option to exclude.

Posted by: Jon Fernandes Feb 25 2010, 05:51 PM

That's a photoshop job, very skilled at that.

Posted by: zymurgist Feb 25 2010, 05:54 PM

True... one of the greatest things about the 914 is the phenomenal amount of storage space available. I still managed to fill both trunks and had to have help opening the front trunk when I arrived at the ECC and again when I got home last year, though. (Guess I don't travel light.)

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 05:58 PM

Mike - Cayman is waaaay too expensive for the market segment which Porsche needs to captue early & young. How many 20-somethings & early 30's buyers do you know who can pop for a $60-80k +/- Cayman/Boxster today!!?? I'd venture to say not many, but easily a heck of a lot for $30-60k +/- IMHO.

And I'm not speaking relative "frills vs. no frills" then & today, as relativism doesn't always work as a justification in product design - even though the marketing gurus will try to "sell" folks that way!

I'm saying to go back to a more basic fun sports car as an option in the PAG line-up. Porsche has done that with almost every generation: 356 Speedster, 912/912E & the 914, 928/944/968, Boxster & now Boxster Speedster, & who knows what next!!??

Moreover, the 356 & 911/912/930 series of that 60's-80's era were hand built sports cars, whereas all Porsches are ALL assembly line built today - as the 914/4 & 928/944/968 were in their day.

Even the first base Boxster started initially in the price-point range we're talking about here for a 6 at $40-50k+/- ~ but as with the 911/912 & 924/944/968 series ~ price creep comes in & now you have $61k for the "new stripped down 2800 lb. Speedster" - up to almost $100k for the loaded BoxsterS/CaymanS ~ just where the 911 series was just a few years ago! Top half of 5-figures is a non-starter for most young professionals etc. wanting to enter the market with a Porsche as their "first dream car."

So Porsche has again "lost" that crucial initial entry Porsche buyer $30-$60k window, and salaries are frozen or dropping in this economy - NOT ever rising. Every maker needs to keep those new buyers coming in the door, in order to build brand loyalty early on, and used Porsches just won't cut it in that market segment for most of the masses.

Let's face it - we're ALL borderline insane on 914world with our inane 914 Luv! .... but most everyday buyers aren't like us, & they want a DD Porsche that they can afford & depend upon running without much fussing, and the younger & more frugal ones want it in the mid-5-figure price range!

I do understand where you're coming from on the cost premise, but have a different take on it. First - you're comparing 914-6 with a Retro-914-4 price range of $30-40k, whereas more likely the hot 4-turbo &/or 6 would be in the next bracket(s) of $40-50k & $50-60k respectively.

The problem was that Porsche tried to semi-hand build the 914-6 like the 911's of the day, when they really needed a mass production price to keep the price under the hand built 911T especially, as well as for more differentiation of what you get for the money of 914-6 vs. 911T. Clearly less than 10% didn't give an appropriate spread, & that was wiped out after you added some options to the 914-6 price.

And on that topic, marketing-wise they "screwed the pooch" by marketing it as some blend of VW-Porsche, rather than as they did here in the USA as just a Porsche! I'd venture to say that - had Porsche sent 6 drive-trains to Karmann for assembly line builds of both 4s & 6s at a cost savings - but marketed it as a "pure Porsche" (albeit with VW components & assembly assistance) - that it MAY NOT have had the identity crisis in the market, & would definitely had a better price difference between the 911s. Of course without Mr. Peabody's time machine, we'll never know for sure!

Also, from an econometric analysis perspective - you have to take out of your comparison above - the Dollar vs. Mark exchange rate gyrations of the 1970's - resulting from before they took the currencies off the gold standard & the wild fluctuations afterward while the currency markets settled; as well as the 70's 1st & 2nd Oil Crisis induced inflation (just as the recent one in `08 jacked up all prices - not just fuel costs).

Additionally, new materials & production methods today mitigate some of the manufacturing costs of cars today - so it's not a straight line doubling of costs per decade sort of regression calculation. It would be a better analysis to look at the new Boxster Speedster at $61k ~ & analyze where costs would be saved by further cuts, a smaller & lighter platform (body & chassis), & a smaller displacement high-output motor(s).

The question is really whether Porsche could build a 2/3's scale Boxster - as in the sketch for $30-40k in a basic sporty 4 banger, & $40-60K for increased output power plants, hybrids, EVs, etc., & still attract enough buyers in that price-point range worldwide (40-60% in the US), to make back their investment & a respectable profit margin - but NOT a high end Porsche profit margin.

BMW, Jag, etc. have all got lower margin cars to capture these buyers early - not just to make huge profits now - but also to build a pipeline of future move-up buyers who will pop for the $100+k & ever growing Boxster/Cayman bill, & then will pay more for 911 series cars over the years - IF they keep them satisfied as customers. The name of that game is brand loyalty, as Toyota is struggling with now. BTW - it took Audi a decade to recover from their similar mishandling of their version of the runaway acceleration problem in the 70's-80's.

VW sees that entry buyer capture problem, and the product differentiation between a VW sports sedan, an Audi TT/etc., & a range of Porsche products - vs. their top-top end Bentley & Bugatti top of the pyramid niche products which have absolutely no entry strategy for their exclusive limited production products. So you're absolutely right on them not doing a VW nor an Audi 914-Redux, but I think (& hope) that the jury is still out for one in the offing from Porsche.

And please do keep in mind that we're just having a discussion here, and I'm not trying to disparage you nor anyone else in any way for differing opinions!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 06:25 PM

Another big problem with all cars today is the ever increasing safety/crash protection, emissions, dumb-proofing, etc. requirements of the US DOT & their EU & other counterparts, all of which adds weight (even over the 69-76 914 MYs).

Add that to AC, power windows, mirrors & seats, super audio systems power assist to steering & brakes, seat fanny warmers, & other luxury items - then you have a significant weight gain ...

... which drives engineering to add yet more structural weight to carry it & keep it from throwing the car all over the place around corners/etc.!

Pretty soon they'll make them put in 360 degree airbags so we'll all look like "Bubble Boy" from that movie!

Posted by: kwales Feb 25 2010, 06:58 PM

It's marketing crap creep that ruins sportcars.

I shudder when I think of the sleek Datsun 240Z that turned into the bloated 300ZX. Complete with a frickin useless easily confused digital compass.

I'm not holding my breath for a 914 replacement. It's all about manipulation of the public by the release of press packages from time to time. The purpose to the sales and marketeers is to throw their "brands" in front of the public and to genrerate a little "excitement" for thier "brands".

Nothing to do with cars, all about 'branding".

Posted by: SirAndy Feb 25 2010, 07:15 PM

No

Posted by: MDG Feb 25 2010, 07:18 PM

As far as VWs plans, who knows. My opinion is the current GTI and Scirocco satisfies their sporty car desires. Both models blend in as part of the overall line-up and their styling draws the 20-30 year olds as well as the ricer crowd.

With Porsche, the Boxster Spyder you call up is a perfect case in point for their mindset. To create a more 'basic, fun sports car' as you put it, they took a Boxster S, stripped it of all the modern conveniences they could get away with, including the freakin' roof which they replaced with some kind of odd toupee. All to save weight and get back to the essence of their sports car roots.
End product:
weight savings - minimal
performance gain - marginal
Price? In Canada a Spyder lists for $700 more than an Boxster S. You have to admire their moxy - give 'em less and charge 'em more!

meh, just don't see them getting hyped about making a $30-40-50k car. It's not their way.

Posted by: carr914 Feb 25 2010, 08:33 PM

Look at the size of a Boxster vs an earlier 911 & 914.



The other thing about Porsche and market segments - the Boxster & Cayman share the same segment.

I would buy a 914 Redux if it was $25-35k. I don't care if it is a Porsche or VW. I think they could make a tidy profit if production costs are kept in check. Look at the VW R32 - they go like stink, have a cult following and have maintained their value very well. I passed on a brand new one that I could have gotten a good deal on because I didn't think they would have resell value.

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 08:35 PM

Yeah Mike - I love that half-fast pup tent they call a top.

I haven't compared the $61k price tag in the PCA Pando article I was reading, but nobody can accuse Porsche marketing of lack cajones to rape & pillage!

I was actually more interested in gauging a level of interest in the size & type & styling as illustrated in their concept sketch from this group of Teener fans than debating whether they would.

But the lively discussion has been interesting nonetheless!

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 08:37 PM

Thanx for making the size point visually TC!

In fact, this gold/yellow styling concept may even be a shorter overall length &/or wheelbase, although it's hard to tell from the sketch.






Attached image(s)

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 08:51 PM

But I'm SURE this one has a shorter wheelbase & length!



Plus they could probably get the costs way down on this with pedal power!

Posted by: GeorgeRud Feb 25 2010, 09:25 PM

It's interesting that Porsche may be forced to get a higher mileage model to be able to sell cars in this country (thanks to our government pinheads), as they have to increase their MPG figures every couple of years, and can't do it with the current models.

If a small, light model with an efficient engine (ie 914) could be added to their range, it would help get their fleet average up where they need it. Also, hybrid or diesel engines in the Cayanne and Panamera would also serve a similar purpose.

Maybe the concept isn't as crazy as it seems.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Feb 25 2010, 09:29 PM

An interest? Yes. Would I buy one? Not at this point. I like my 914 for fun, and my CRX for everyday.




Not relative to the other cars available at the time. Even the 356 Speedster was more luxurious than its Brit-car counterparts, with a top that was actually slightly useful and cut down on wind noise. The 356 Carrera 2 was very expensive and luxurious at the time. And the 911 was looked at with utter shock at the time by the 356 Faithful, because it was large and overweight and cost about double what the 356 did.

Even the 914-4 was expensive in its day; I think you could buy a new Vette in 1970 for what a 914-4 was running.

--DD

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 09:54 PM

Yeah but Dave, as Brit car buddies of mine used to say: "You need at least 2 MGs [or whatever] - 1 to drive while the other is in the shop!"

Yup - Vette was about the same price back when I got my 73 2L in 75, as my Uncle reminded me (he had a 58 Vette since 60)! I was in Jr High when a neighbor in San Diego traded in his 62 356 for the "new" 911, & recall the rousing debate he, my Dad & Uncle had bout the relative merits & prices of the two vs. the Vette!

I agree with all your points above on the 356 & 911 series, but certainly Porsche or any sports car today could be built more for driving & less for creature comforts which would go a long way towards smaller size, weight & cost/price.

One thing for sure - history repeats itself, and as another posted above - this recession has an eerie resemblance to the 928/944/968 era, as well as to some others!

Posted by: Krank Feb 25 2010, 10:12 PM

Yeah, and your regular wage was less than a buck/hr

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 25 2010, 10:18 PM

Minimum wage in California was $1.75 then, but I was lucky & made $2.25 then in High School!

and coffee or a large Coke was 2 bits!

I wuz there

Posted by: johannes Feb 26 2010, 08:30 AM

Boxster / Cayman cannot be that smaller than a 911 because they share a lot of parts .... same doors ...

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 26 2010, 09:23 AM

as much as I like both of these drawings, I agree, porsche would not produce a sub-40k car. but if they did... I'd seriously have to think about it

but at the same time, I don't think I could afford to have that AND a 914... so I think that I would have to decline buying the new one... at least until they get cheap on the used car market

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 26 2010, 09:26 AM

Johannes -

TC was showing the older 1970's 911 in that photo - the contemporary to our 914s - which was smaller than the later & current 911s. The entire Porsche line-up has grown longer & taller with a higher-up center of gravity - as well as about 1/3 heavier - over the years since the 1970's, which all have design & engineering implications to carry the added weight & keep them good handling sports cars.

Posted by: MDG Feb 26 2010, 09:37 AM

Round numbers:
1975 930: L - 169" vs. Boxster 172" / 930 H - 52" vs. 51" / 930 W - 70" vs. 71"
930 - 2660lbs vs. 2945lbs

The big difference in the length and weight has more to do with the required safety measures these days. This is why we have big front/rear overhangs on all these cars now.

I'd be interested if they made one too. But I think it's a pipe dream.

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 26 2010, 09:59 AM

Thanx for the specs comparison Mike.

I think if you go back to the 70-72 911s - you shed a couple of more inches in length & down to around 2300-2400 lbs. without the big bumpers/shock mountings, door side-impact bracing - as was the case with the pre-75-76 914s size & weight diffs.

Just looking at the gold/yellow sketch one - in relation to the Driver's head size - I'm guessing it's about the Miata or Lotus Elise/Tesla roadster size - a bit smaller than our 914s IIRC. But I'm just using my Architectural perspective skills to "eye-ball" on that.

Smaller = lighter & less goodies/options = lighter, & both help save cost, weight, materials, complications, etc. - so maybe they can still meet today's DOT requirements as they have on the Miata & Elise within that small package.

While IMHO they should be building a model in that price-point for the marketing strategy reasons I've stated, base on Porsche's past actions - I' have to agree with you that it's a much longer shot than I'd like to see!!!!

Posted by: carr914 Feb 26 2010, 10:28 AM

There was a comment on another site that said that Porsche has to better their MPG for the fleet of cars as the US regs state that Manufactures must get better mileage.

There are 2 ways to achieve this;

#1 Hybrid/Diesel for the Cayenne/Panomera.

#2 Lightweight entry level car that sells in numbers.

Certainly people remember the Honda CRX - lightweight, no frills (roll-up windows, etc) that got like 57 MPG. They sold alot those things, they even made a decent racecar ( I drove one in Showroom Stock)

T.C.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 26 2010, 10:38 AM

last I heard about that was they were putting a ton of research into one cheap hybrid/diesel that would meet the quota for the entire market(no doubt a VW label, not porsche) for europe market only, and allow them to keep the other cars the same. I do think a diesel cayenne is possible too. from what I understand they will be able to lump all of their cars together and as long as the averages are above the standard, they can have a few sports cars/gas guzzlers. maybe a TDI boxster?

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 26 2010, 11:03 AM

Another way is the hybrid 911 & Boxster/Cayman lines - as evidenced by the 911 GT3 Hybrid racer "testbed" just announced, plus there was some 4 EV-motors-at-the-wheels concept that they were working on for application to any vehicle in the line-up (Boxster may have been the test platform IIRC).

In all probability it will be a CAFE strategy encompassing several or all of the strategies noted, because they can easily drop an engine or at-the-wheel-motor EV into any body/platform.
Let's hope that your #2 with something close to this 914-ish concept is in that mix!

TC - we used to call the CRX - "the Cracks!"
My kids inherited the more basic 88 Civic Hatchback DX from one of their uncles, & even that basic engined one is pretty peppy! My son got about 32 mpg in town while learning to drive the 5-speed stick (whacka-whacka-whacka-stall !! ), & 52 mpg on the freeway OC to San Diego!

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 26 2010, 11:05 AM

I love the CRX, it was a beats in Gran Turismo 2 on PS2 also

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 26 2010, 11:10 AM

Wayne - IIRC each mfgr needs to meet their own fleet CAFE standard for the US, & those fleet mpg averages are going up again soon, plus they're talking about jacking it even more than the current "next step" within the "Green & Sustainability" law working through Congress as we speak (it may end up close to what the EU has in coming years for standards).

Ergo, Porsche still has to do something here in the US - plus their are some corporate-wide Enviro Responsibility standards which the EU is imposing from-soup-to-nuts on the mfg process, products & recycling of production waste & old products after their lifespan - so maybe Porsche branded Coke cans are in the future!!??

Posted by: carr914 Feb 26 2010, 11:35 AM

Porsche already has a Hybrid they are working on - it's very similar to the F1 KERS system AND there has been developement on a Diesel that will go in the Cayenne.

But I want a lightweight new 914 - I think a TDI would be cool

T.C.

Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 26 2010, 11:40 AM

the power they are getting in VW TDIs I think would make a great, lightweight car while remaining economical.

Posted by: Tom_T Feb 26 2010, 11:40 AM

I'd go for the flat boxer 4 or 6 - maybe multi-fuel?? or hybrid, or even an EV for the 914-Redux if they get the batteries & range figured out.

I even considered taking a 914 roller & doing one of those EV conversions out there as a fun DD project after my 73 2L resto was done - but then sanity set in!!!!

Posted by: johannes Feb 26 2010, 12:26 PM

Diesel and Hybrid Cayenne are already for sale ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iLQrrOPLesU

Hybrid and maybe diesel Panamera will follow for sure...
Let's wait for the 4 cylinder Boxster/Cayman they are working on ...

Job done ! ... 911 can live in peace

Posted by: Tom_T Mar 3 2010, 03:09 AM

As Johannes posted on another topic here in the Garage - Porsche released the 918 Hybrid - which you can see at this link below that I got from the PCA local OCR (may be the same as Johannes - or similar but in English if his is from Euro Land).

http://www.insideline.com/porsche/porsche-918-spyder-hybrid-2010-geneva-auto-show.html

I do NOT like the overworked styling on this 918, & much prefer the Gold/Yellow design concept which I pisted initially on this topic. Everyone's tastes are different, but I think the designers on this 918 Hybrid are just working way to hard to make the car look Sci-Fi - rather than creating a timeless design as in the tru Porsche tradition since the early days.

As for Johannes continuing defense of the realm for 911/997 & Boxster/Cayman - I personally feel that the stable needs shaking up with a small - tight - little go-cart for the shear fun of it. Johannes, you & others who feel threatened by a new 914 can stick with the taildraggers & new bloated middies, but I'll still push for the 914 Redux! Allow others room for our differing preferences too!

Best!
Tom
///////

Posted by: Tom_T Mar 18 2010, 08:31 PM

Relative to these 2 above quoted earlier responses from Johannes & RobW about what are apparently well overstated Porsche sales/production figures - I was just reading in the most recent Panorama last night about Porsche's USA sales for 2009 & 2008 - and was frankly surprised at how small of a number it was - particularly for the Boxters & Caymans!

US Vehicles: . . . . . 2009 MY: . . . . . . 2008 MY: . . . . . . Yr-to-Yr Chg:
All Makers: . . . 10,431,509 . . . . . . 13,245,718 . . . . . . - 21.2%
Porsche: . . . . . . . . 19,696 . . . . . . . . . .26,035 . . . . . . - 24.3%
911: . . . . . . . . . . . . 6,839 . . . . . . . . . . .8,320 e . . . . . - 17.8%
Cayenne: . . . . . . . . 7,735 . . . . . . . . . .11,210 e . . . . . - 31.0%
Boxster: . . . . . . . . . 1,909 . . . . . . . . . .2,978 e . . . . . - 35.9%
Cayman:. . . . . . . . . 1,966 . . . . . . . . . .3,510 e . . . . . - 44.0%

IIRC - the USA is now about 40% of their total world sales, so I'm extrapolating that the world totals for 2009 & 2008 were about:

Porsche Total: 20,000 - 26,000 +/- USA / 0.60 = 33,400 - 43,400 +/- worldwide ~ not 100,000

Boxster+Cayman: 4,000 - 5,500 +/- USA / 0.60 = 6,700 - 9,200 +/- worldwide ~ not 100-200,000

IIRC - Our original 914's best sales year was 1973 MY & they built & sold well north of 27,500 1.7's & 2.0's that year (about 3/4's & 1/4 respectively) - with 60% being in the USA - or +/- 16,500 1973 MY 914's here in the USA - which is 3 to 4 times the meager 4,000 - 5,500 Boxters+Caymans sold in the USA in 2009 & 2008!

IMHO - they could easily equal or better their profits on the Boxters/Caymans - by selling 20,000+ units of a nice, small, lightweight & simplified entry level or specialty/preference spec "Retro New 914" Porsche, as in this model concept below v- even if it had less than half the profit margin per unit as the Boxters/Caymans!

.... Plus those 20,000+ units would bring down their USA CAFE & Euro equivalent overal Fleet MPG ratings - so why not!!??




..... I'm still game!
..... & waiting impatiently!