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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Possibly got robbed
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 5 2012, 01:07 PM
I didnt want to screw up my build thread with my anger. 
Building a 2056. Took the engine case, crank, rods, flywheel, cylinders to the local machinest. 2 months later I finally get everything back and pay the man what was agreed. The work that was performed:
jugs were bored out to 96mm
case was cleaned and check for straightness and bearings pressed in
flywheel was cleaned polished
crank was polished etc. with rods rebuilt with new bushings (custom) made by machinest and assembled with new bearings supplied by myself.
again... crank was fully lubbed and assembled ready to go in.
finally everything was balanced and returned to me.
FAST FOREWARD
I drop off the engine components to Tony @ Translog GT and ask him to assemble the longblock. 
I didnt want to Fudge anything up. And I have great repect for Tony and his buss.
Tony calls me today and tells me that the crank was absolutly unusable. He tells me that one or more bolts on the flywheel end were sheerd off and the end was all buggerd up. He cant believe that someone would perform the work that has already been done to this crank. He mentiond a pin also, I really dont know exactly what he is talking about until I see it first hand. He said he will try to shoot me a few pics today, either way I will be picking up my crank and calling the machine shop.
I am angry, but still not sure if I am at fault here. I took the engine apart myself, and dropped the components off myself. I told the machine shop to do the work, and I am not expierenced at engine building. This is my first build !
I just threw away hundreds of dollars and 2 months of my build
WHAT do you guys have to say>>>>>>>>>>
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
p.s. I am calling the machine shop now.
Posted by: hot_shoe914 Mar 5 2012, 01:13 PM
I didnt want to screw up my build thread with my anger.
Building a 2056. Took the engine case, crank, rods, flywheel, cylinders to the local machinest. 2 months later I finally get everything back and pay the man what was agreed. The work that was performed:
jugs were bored out to 96mm
case was cleaned and check for straightness and bearings pressed in
flywheel was cleaned polished
crank was polished etc. with rods rebuilt with new bushings (custom) made by machinest and assembled with new bearings supplied by myself.
again... crank was fully lubbed and assembled ready to go in.
finally everything was balanced and returned to me.
FAST FOREWARD
I drop off the engine components to Tony @ Translog GT and ask him to assemble the longblock.
I didnt want to Fudge anything up. And I have great repect for Tony and his buss.Tony calls me today and tells me that the crank was absolutly unusable. He tells me that one or more bolts on the flywheel end were sheerd off and the end was all buggerd up. He cant believe that someone would perform the work that has already been done to this crank. He mentiond a pin also, I really dont know exactly what he is talking about until I see it first hand. He said he will try to shoot me a few pics today, either way I will be picking up my crank and calling the machine shop.
I am angry, but still not sure if I am at fault here. I took the engine apart myself, and dropped the components off myself. I told the machine shop to do the work, and I am not expierenced at engine building. This is my first build !
I just threw away hundreds of dollars and 2 months of my build
WHAT do you guys have to say>>>>>>>>>>
p.s. I am calling the machine shop now.
I say if you need a crank let me know and I will hook you up.
Posted by: PeeGreen 914 Mar 5 2012, 01:36 PM
Sounds like a bad deal. I hope the machine shop will step up to the plate.
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 5 2012, 02:00 PM
Ummm....bearings don't "press" in, you have to press a little bit with your thumbs on the center main and the number 2 you need to heat the gears to slip them on.
The custom rod bushings, did you modify for 22mm pins? 24mm pin (stock) bushings are available...
The crank should have never passed visual inspection if your guy is right.
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 5 2012, 02:34 PM
...He tells me that one or more bolts on the flywheel end were sheerd off and the end was all buggerd up. He cant believe that someone would perform the work that has already been done to this crank. He mentiond a pin also, I really dont know exactly what he is talking about until I see it first hand. ....
When you took the engine apart did you notice anything odd about the flywheel bolts?
That almost sounds like the bolts were in (no flywheel) and the crank was dropped.
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 5 2012, 05:53 PM
still have not seen it, i will be picking it up tommorow. I did however give Tony the phone number of the machine shop. Tony didnt get a chance to call me back before he left today but.... the machinest just called me 1 min ago.
"Joe I talked to Tony and he explained to me that it looked like the flywheel had come off at some point or another. The pin was sheered off and needs to be drilled out. The surface also needs to be machined down and you will need to make up the difference with some shims. I just assumed it came off of a running motor cause thats what you said, so I never checked the other end there. If you bring it to me tommorow i will have to put it all apart again and do the work for you. I want to make it right, and Tony said that would be satisfactory."
I guess this is the best way to proceed. 
He is willing to make it right. I will need to talk to Tony first to get his opinion. And YES you guys will get pictures
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 5 2012, 06:05 PM
oh yeah...
Thank you Hoteshoe and Vacca Rabite
Posted by: saigon71 Mar 5 2012, 06:44 PM
Bummer you had to deal with the extra hassle...but it looks like the guy is standing behind his work. Looks like things will work out and you will be 
soon!
Posted by: Smitty911 Mar 5 2012, 06:49 PM
oh yeah...
Thank you Hoteshoe and Vacca Rabite
Wow, you got lucky. I had purchased two (2) Ford 360FI for my F-250. The machine shop - Superior Automotive. Figured there would be enough good parts to make one tight motor.
This clown doctor (featured in Hot Rod magizine), machined the block, align honed, decked etc. etc. etc. a cracked block (unrepairable), gave me back rebuilt connecting rods (still not trued), Remanufactured the Both heads, for $1,100 with all the used parts (PAW had a pair with all new parts for $750), etc. etc. etc.
Than when I said something about it, said I was attempting to scam him out of parts and money.
Glad he is making it right.
Smitty
Posted by: jmill Mar 5 2012, 06:54 PM
Having Tony call the guy was a good choice. Engine builders go to machine shops. A bad word from Tony could cost this guy lots of business from other engine builders. On a side note, if you took him some buggered up stuff and told him what to do with it you esentially got what you paid for. The fact he didn't mention the other issues with your crank is questionable.
Posted by: scotty b Mar 5 2012, 06:56 PM
A REAL machine shop would have chedcked EVERYTING themselves vs.relying on the customers word. The shop is resposible for the fix, and if they try and charge you any extra $$ they are b.s. in my book. A shop should NEVER go on the customers word alone. We are the "professionals" and you are not ( no offense intended ) You guys rely on us to find the issues, notify you of them and then correct them ( if approved ) this machine shop, IMHO, is neglegent in at least 2 of those situations 
Posted by: hot_shoe914 Mar 5 2012, 08:26 PM
Joe is a professional too, just in a different field.
Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 5 2012, 09:21 PM
A REAL machine shop would have chedcked EVERYTING themselves vs.relying on the customers word. The shop is resposible for the fix, and if they try and charge you any extra $$ they are b.s. in my book. A shop should NEVER go on the customers word alone. We are the "professionals" and you are not ( no offense intended ) You guys rely on us to find the issues, notify you of them and then correct them ( if approved ) this machine shop, IMHO, is neglegent in at least 2 of those situations
completely
Posted by: sean_v8_914 Mar 5 2012, 09:48 PM
I agree with scotty b
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Mar 5 2012, 09:50 PM
I'm bummed about this. This is a shop that I have used in the past with great effect, and let Joe know about him. He did the short block stuff for my 350 and is well known known in our area as a good machinist and a stand up guy.
I am glad he is goin to make it right, but feel bad for giving the reccomendation. Just let me know if you end up needing my other 2.0 crank. It's yours for the asking.
Zach
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 6 2012, 12:32 PM
Just dropped the crank back to the machine shop
The pics I Promissed, here it is fresh from the machine shop 
Posted by: stugray Mar 6 2012, 12:45 PM
Just so I understand:
"He tells me that one or more bolts on the flywheel end were sheerd off and the end was all buggerd up"
AND
"finally everything was balanced and returned to me."
So this guy works miracles if he ASSEMBLED that crank to flywheel and BALANCED IT FOR YOU without noticing the damage???
Give me a break!
Stu
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 6 2012, 12:56 PM
Just so I understand:
"He tells me that one or more bolts on the flywheel end were sheerd off and the end was all buggerd up"
AND
"finally everything was balanced and returned to me."
So this guy works miracles if he ASSEMBLED that crank to flywheel and BALANCED IT FOR YOU without noticing the damage???
Give me a break!
Stu
The engine builder told me it was F#$% up, i wasnt exactly sure how. Today I saw it first hand and now i understand, only the pin was sheered off, but the end of the crank looks like it fell off of a moving truck
Posted by: jmill Mar 6 2012, 01:06 PM
Yeah, it looks bad. Stevie Wonder can see that it's hosed up. The benefit of doubt I extended for the machine shop only goes so far.
Posted by: Jake Raby Mar 6 2012, 02:12 PM
Looks like medieval tools and procedures were used to carry out that work. I wouldn't let that shop work on a Briggs and Stratton for me!
We did a round of machine work a few weeks ago and had a real bitch of a time with the cores and parts that were supplied. I was trying to open up more of our services to those doing their own work but it proved to be a PITA because someone complained about the price even after he had agreed to it up front.
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 6 2012, 02:22 PM
Yeah, it looks bad. Stevie Wonder can see that it's hosed up. The benefit of doubt I extended for the machine shop only goes so far.
Agreed, that doesn't even pass visual inspection. Why would someone work on that?
Posted by: stugray Mar 6 2012, 02:34 PM
"Will you please come and look at my damage with me sir?
If we look together maybe some magic will happen.
This is horri- feel this! This even feels damaged!
Do you have tools, can you fix this right now?
This is horribly- this feels so horribly damaged.
Even if I was blind I would know this is horribly damaged,
by the way it feels."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58j_ZbpiCjM
Stu
Posted by: gothspeed Mar 6 2012, 04:08 PM
I have seen crank journals weld repaired, remachined then nitrided for not too much money ........ could not the same process be used on that end?
Posted by: carr914 Mar 6 2012, 06:13 PM
Why, just start again with a better one & a different machinest 
Posted by: r_towle Mar 6 2012, 07:25 PM
Looks like it sat in the water and got rusty...then sandblasted.
rich
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Mar 6 2012, 08:14 PM
Joe, is there corresponding damage on the flywheel where it connects, or did you get a new flywheel?
I don't understand how this damage could have happened and the flywheel still ran true.
Zach
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 6 2012, 08:28 PM
Joe, is there corresponding damage on the flywheel where it connects, or did you get a new flywheel?
I don't understand how this damage could have happened and the flywheel still ran true.
Zach
Tony said the flywheel was fine, it is the original one resurfaced. I drove this car every day for more than 2 years with this crank.
Your guess is as good as mine
Posted by: infraredcalvin Mar 6 2012, 09:45 PM
I used to take pics of all angles and scribe a mark in a hidden spot to be sure I got my part back. Once had a shop call me about the "hidden" mark and if I wanted buffed out... At least he examined the part well enough to find my mark...
Posted by: aircooledtechguy Mar 6 2012, 11:08 PM
Looks like it sat in the water and got rusty...then sandblasted.
rich
It doesn't look like tool marks. It looks like pitting over a long time.Just a wild guess: I would bet this is NOT the crank you dropped off, but possibly is the flywheel you dropped off. Maybe is was switched (intentionally or UN-intentionally) with another customers POS crank core. I would recommend approaching this as if an honest mistake was made and allow them to make it right. I can tell you from experience that your attitude will make a big difference on how you are treated in the end. All people are capable of making a mistake, it's how they take care of that mistake that separates the good vendor from the bad. This could be just a simple error (grabbing the wrong crank). Give the guy the opportunity to make it right before accusing him of screwing you.
That aught to be a fun one to set end-play on. . .
Posted by: firstknight13 Mar 7 2012, 01:53 AM
Looks like it sat in the water and got rusty...then sandblasted.
rich
i agree 100 % with rich....we've all seen this first hand i'm sure...no brainer
Posted by: firstknight13 Mar 7 2012, 01:55 AM
Joe, is there corresponding damage on the flywheel where it connects, or did you get a new flywheel?
I don't understand how this damage could have happened and the flywheel still ran true.
Zach
they were both equally rotted and so it took away an equal amount....
Posted by: Woody Mar 7 2012, 07:54 AM
It doesn't look like rust to me. It looks like galling, most likely from loose or missing flywheel bolts. Maybe at one point in that engines life the bolts backed out and the flywheel spun on the crank and then the bolts were just put back in. Just a theory.
Posted by: gothspeed Mar 7 2012, 09:25 AM
Why, just start again with a better one & a different machinest
......... my guess it would be less expensive to fix than to buy another crank and have everything redone. The fix can be just as good and possibly even more reliable as one would have a fresh surface. but it was just an idea and not intended for people that have a lot extra money
Also as aircooledguy mentioned, the crank may not even be the same one that was dropped off. unless it was tagged/marked as soon as it was delivered, it could have been grabbed by mistake or??
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 7 2012, 02:59 PM
Still waiting to hear back from the machine shop
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 7 2012, 05:14 PM
Machine guy called,
basically said that he did what I asked him to do, and he would make it right but I have to wait until next week because he is swampped.
And
He goes on to say that the flywheel must be pretty messed up also.
I dont have the flywheel because its sitting in tonys shop. WTF WTF WTF
now I will call Tony tommorow and ask him to inspect the flywheel closer. On the other hand Tony has a pretty good idea of engine building, I can only assume he checked the flywheel good after seeing the condition of my crank.
Im gonna step outide
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 8 2012, 10:13 AM
You couldn't pay me to run that crank. I would get another one and start with a fresh feeling of confidence. Nothing worse than doubting whether or not the work or part will last the life of the engine.
Posted by: Dave_Darling Mar 8 2012, 11:22 AM
But Rick, the crank always lasts the life of the engine. Because when the crank goes, the engine is gone. 
(Yes, I agree with the "use a different crank" people.)
--DD
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 8 2012, 01:30 PM
If he has to replace the crank how is that going to be now considered a balanced assembly?
I'd say the crank is your responsibility to replace it, but the machinist should never have balanced it in that condition and demanded a better crank right from the start. If the crank is replaced than the whole assembly fan, crank, fly and PP will need to be rebalanced.
A proper balance is each part balanced separately and then the rotating assembly is bolted together and balanced again. The bolts/washers will be needed for this part of the job. (BTW I balance the fly and PP bolts/washers so that the order is not important.)
I'd be asking if this was done.
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 12 2012, 09:21 AM
Machine guy called.....
The crank is ready.
I will be picking it up tommorow. Pics will also be tommorow 
Now that the crank has been repaired... should I have everything balanced again?
I did thank him very much for workin things out with me. It pays to be polite
Posted by: Mark Henry Mar 12 2012, 09:36 AM
Please post pics of the repaired crank.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Mar 12 2012, 10:16 AM
I would love to hear how he thought the crank got buggered in the first place.
Zach
Posted by: worn Mar 12 2012, 10:22 AM
From my look at the pix it seems like mostly rust damage connected to destruction of the roll pin when disassembling. I too wonder what the fly wheel looks like. I would guess a mirror image.
If there was enough land left surfaced at three points around the crank the flywheel would sit fairly true and might balance. I wonder though if that one would at full bolt torque. I also assume that the roll pin is there for positioning, so how can you attach the flywheel for balancing without the roll pin.
I agree that something is wrong and a new crank might be the path of wisdom. However, if the crank is turned true and the fly wheel surface is also checked out the shim solution ought to work. As long as the machinist takes the trouble to get the flywheel centered and true.
Just a guess - the machine shop doesn't do a lot of work with these engines?
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Mar 12 2012, 11:15 AM
If Tony (Translog) says that the repair will work, then it will work. If he did not think it would work then he would say so, and refuse the work (just as he refused to continue the work when he first saw the crank). He has too much of a rep around this area to take a chance on it not working.
Posted by: gothspeed Mar 12 2012, 12:02 PM
Please post pics of the repaired crank.
+914 ...........
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 12 2012, 12:15 PM
Please post pics of the repaired crank.
+914 ...........
Thats easy... who dosnt have a hundred pictures of their 914??
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 13 2012, 09:14 AM
PICTURES
Look good to everybody?? I am ready to drive this car
Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 13 2012, 10:36 AM
Did he say how much material was removed?
As long as there's enough free play to use at least one adjustment shim it will be ok.
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 13 2012, 05:37 PM
Did he say how much material was removed?
As long as there's enough free play to use at least one adjustment shim it will be ok.
He did not say how much was removed, but he did say it was very little. Tony got it today and he said it should be fine.
It wont be long now
Posted by: gothspeed Mar 13 2012, 05:46 PM
Well if it were me I would buy it if it was an le or not, if the price was right
Looks good
!!
Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 13 2012, 06:10 PM
The only thing I can think of is that you may need to shim the ball post on your transmission to bring the pivot point of the throw out bearing out .
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 14 2012, 10:26 AM
The only thing I can think of is that you may need to shim the ball post on your transmission to bring the pivot point of the throw out bearing out .
Mike,
How will I know if this needs to be done?
Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 14 2012, 10:53 AM
I would bet it does and it is not a problem to do it and not exactly need it. Just put another washer under the pivot ball, and seal the threads of the stud of the pivot ball with teflon as two washers will not keep the oil in.
Posted by: rwilner Mar 14 2012, 03:37 PM
The only thing I can think of is that you may need to shim the ball post on your transmission to bring the pivot point of the throw out bearing out .
Mike,
How will I know if this needs to be done?
If your clutch arm hits the trans case before the clutch is released and the cable cant go any tighter without the clutch slipping, you need another washer. I think this is typical for a resurfaced flywheel.
I had to do this in my car -- put an extra washer under the TO arm pivot ball.
Posted by: Dr Evil Mar 14 2012, 03:59 PM
Wow, that is like what I was talking about 
Shimming is not usually an issue even if it is not necessary. Not shimming will suck because you need to pull the tranz back off to then shim it.
Posted by: gothspeed Mar 14 2012, 05:34 PM
From what I understand, shimming for the 'end play' should make up for whatever material was removed and would put the flywheel in the same position as if the crank were not surfaced .........
Posted by: cwpeden Mar 14 2012, 06:33 PM
From what I understand, shimming for the 'end play' should make up for whatever material was removed and would put the flywheel in the same position as if the crank were not surfaced .........
Ditto, If anything he will need to use more shim to make up for lost material..
Posted by: Racer Chris Mar 15 2012, 03:06 AM
Ditto, If anything he will need to use more shim to make up for lost material..
Less shim, not more.
The end play shims go between the flywheel and main bearing thrust surface.
The machining done to remove the gouges moved the flywheel closer to the bearing.
The flywheel moved forward by the amount of material removed, thus the possible need to shim the clutch fork ball - same as if the flywheel was resurfaced.
Like Dr Evil said.
Tony at Translog will take care of the end play shims. Joe needs to determine if the clutch fork ball needs an extra washer.
Posted by: RFoulds Mar 15 2012, 11:05 AM
Lesson learned: Take engine assembly to engine builder. Let HIM disassemble, evaluate, send parts to machinist, and re-assemble.
I wasted so much time and money trying to do all that myself too. Now all I will do is pull engine and tranny, seperate the two, and deliver it to engiine shop.
Posted by: jsayre914 Mar 15 2012, 11:51 AM
Machine guy told me he removed 15 thousandths (,015)
he said it was about the thickness of 3 pieces of paper
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