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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Why aren't 914's worth more $$$?
Posted by: 74porsche914 Mar 10 2012, 08:37 PM
Just been wondering why 914's aren't worth more moolah. In my opinion there a lot more practical then british sport cars and other sports cars from the period. Is it because there always in the shadow of the 911? Really I'm grateful there affordable or I would not own one!
Posted by: 74porsche914 Mar 10 2012, 08:39 PM
Not planin on selling mine so price really doesn't matter. Just curious.
Posted by: scotty b Mar 10 2012, 08:41 PM
mass produced, poorly maintained, costly to restore when compared to finished value.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: porschefile2010 Mar 10 2012, 08:44 PM
Interesting question. I think their day will come but right now the collectors are into the 356's. When that supply dries up at sensible money I think attention will turn to 914's although there will always be the VW hangup which will ensure they never get to 356 status unless it's a 914/6. Like you say though. Cheap fun as long as you can do a lot of the work yourself.
Posted by: timofly Mar 10 2012, 08:51 PM
mass produced, poorly maintained, costly to restore when compared to finished value.
Posted by: billh1963 Mar 10 2012, 09:16 PM
mass produced, poorly maintained, costly to restore when compared to finished value.
Ouch....but true.
Posted by: c12croft Mar 10 2012, 09:39 PM
Just been wondering why 914's aren't worth more moolah. In my opinion there a lot more practical then british sport cars and other sports cars from the period. Is it because there always in the shadow of the 911? Really I'm grateful there affordable or I would not own one!
My 2 cents:
- Off design profile for a Porsche or even a car of that era ("oh that boxy one?")
- Sparten interior
- VW parts interchange
- Low first cost
Posted by: MikeSpraggi Mar 10 2012, 10:12 PM
That is a good question. For me, I went into this not caring about if or when they appreciate. It was very affordable fun, and still is. Not planning on selling mine, but I agree the VW stigma may always hold the value down compared to what 914 enthusiasts think it should be. Also, they were mass produced as an entry level car with "anemic performance" I believe it was said in a car magazine's review.
I had parked my teener in front of the door to one of the rest stops on I-95 between DC and New York. Two late twenty early thirtyish guys were coming out of the door and saw my car. One says to the other "That's Volkswagen's idea of what a Porsche should be". There's the stigma, after all of these years! 
Posted by: larryM Mar 10 2012, 10:16 PM
same question comes up regularly on the British forums too
1. see answer above - mass produced etc
- maybe our great grandkids will cash in on the thing if we pass it along wrapped in visqueen
2. the 914 cars appeal mostly to a demographic that is gettin' on in age, and never had much moola to spend on hobby cars and still doesn't - if we'd had the money, we'd had a 911
914s were never really "highly sought after" when new
- they are tedious to work on, were made before rust-proofing was important, and were comparative slugs in the road test comparisons of the day against similarly priced sportscars - "adequate" is the best that most magazines could say
- the VW stigma is mostly a shibboleth we've perpetuated in our own circles to cover up the uninspired acceptance of the 914 since its debut - the PCA 911 crowd still mostly looks askance at us, but that's only an in-Porsche-house artifact irrelevant to the larger sportscar market of comparative alternatives
3. a modern sportscar - Miata for example - runs circles around 'em in every measureable way - parts are cheap & everywhere - just like they were for 914s & MGs 15-20 yrs ago, - $2500 miatas have A/C & heat that works, no oily smells, a top you can manipulate from the driver seat, 25-30 mpg on regular, 25-50% more horsepower - etc etc -
AND the girlfriend or wife will agree to ride and BE SEEN in it,
- cheap newer used sportscars, & ricer coupes, appeal to the younger demographic that is just coming into hobby money, - and also to the daily commuter & college kid population that wants a combo of open-air fun and reliable utility - and they are welcome at friday nite drifting events - no entry fees - lots of FUN FUN FUN
- and cheap newer used sportscars are attractive to old guys like me who just want all above "daily driving fun" and no hassles - take a look at the average Miata Club owner and weekend tourer with the wife in the passenger seat - gray hair & retired - auto maintenance means writing a $35 check at the SpeedyLube once every 10,000 miles and passing smog every 2 yrs
- yes, most of us old grays in Miatas could afford to own several 914s, 240Zs, MGs or Alfas instead of one Miata or MR2 or Honda - - but why?
(ah, maybe I know the answer - we gotta have several 914s & MGs just to have one that will run on the day we want to use it)
DISCLOSURE - I own a 914/6-GT since 1976, a 99 Miata, a 63 MGB racer/street legal, a Manx and 2 Hondas - I have owned at least 10 914s and as many MGs, 3 XK Jaguars, several Triumphs, 3 911s, and a host of other sometimes drivable sportscars
most days i grab the Miata keys
- .
Posted by: struckn Mar 10 2012, 10:24 PM
That is a good question. For me, I went into this not caring about if or when they appreciate. It was very affordable fun, and still is. Not planning on selling mine, but I agree the VW stigma may always hold the value down compared to what 914 enthusiasts think it should be. Also, they were mass produced as an entry level car with "anemic performance" I believe it was said in a car magazine's review.
I had parked my teener in front of the door to one of the rest stops on I-95 between DC and New York. Two late twenty early thirtyish guys were coming out of the door and saw my car. One says to the other "That's Volkswagen's idea of what a Porsche should be". There's the stigma, after all of these years!
I think that if you compair the resale cost difference between a 914-4 verses a 914-6 the VW Stigma appears to be directed more towards the flat 4 engine then the car it's self. Personally I don't care I'm having too much fun just driving mine to worry about what it's worth.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 10 2012, 10:45 PM
Many of these cars are driver quality. They are nice but used. Many of the cars we see in our classifieds are nice maintained drivers. The top quality cars with nicer than average paint, clean, clean interiors and solid no rust cars (maybe had surface rust that was properly repaired) are commanding good prices. The 6's will always from here on bring top dollar but I think the cream of the crop 4's are doing well. If you want to sell any car for top dollar you need to make it stand out from the rest.
Posted by: dgw Mar 10 2012, 10:45 PM
" the PCA 911 crowd still mostly looks askance at us"
This is bullshit and its time for folks on this forum to put this one in the dustbin.
Posted by: Prospectfarms Mar 10 2012, 11:03 PM
I think that if you compair the resale cost difference between a 914-4 verses a 914-6 the VW Stigma appears to be directed more towards the flat 4 engine then the car it's self....
Posted by: RickS Mar 10 2012, 11:14 PM
Perceived as an entry level car, with a bunch of cheap VW parts, lacking power compared to the 911s, a totally spartan interior, and shaped pretty much like a fridge which fell over and mass produced. Did I miss anything?
Posted by: carr914 Mar 11 2012, 05:31 AM
Some Good Points
Remember the OP mentioned British Cars. MGs & TRs got abused, were poorly maintained etc as well.
I have to mostly agree with Rick about most 914s if restored are done to "Driver" level, which while a good buy, is not the "Concours" Money Level. Even then 914 Concours cars are not following the big upward path - yet?( did you see the results on the 911s @ Goodings)
Posted by: Prospectfarms Mar 11 2012, 07:40 AM
Hang on. Some of those reasons sounds like "begging the question" to me. Wouldn't the quality of restorations be a result of the market price, i.e., the relatively low return on the investment, and not the other way around?
Aesthetics and performance is another dubious reason: Some are old enough to remember when 356 was a "bathtub" porsche. (also underpowered). It took a convergence of factors over quite a few years for those cars to become so desirable. Most importantly, I think, were age, No. produced, and James Dean.
I'd like to compare apples with apples. MG comes to mind, and cars like the once ubiquitous MGB, etc. I don't follow that kind of thing closely but it seems to me that if the prices of "british midlands group" sports cars from the 1970's have exceeded 914 it is only fairly recently. Many of these cars were so poorly designed and built (in my opinion, no offense, please) that their survival ratio might be pretty low -- thus scarce.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 11 2012, 08:54 AM
I have never made a dime on a brit car. My experience with them is the owners don't value them. I mean they seem to sell nice cars cheap because they have to or no one would buy them. I had a Cali rust free 59 MGA with a fresh interior, nice paint and trim and a fresh bored out 5 main engine. I had no interest when selling that car above
$ 8000.00. Sad.. Same with Beetles. I have one of the most solid 66 Bugs from Cali I have ever seen. I know the history. I painted the car for the P.O. 16 years ago. Tried to sell it, no interest at $ 6000.00. There are too many patch up rust buckets that look good on the surface selling cheap.
There is no money to be made restoring cars and selling them in this market. If your doing it, do it because you like to not as an investment. Just have fun with it. The market will come around in time.
Posted by: Prospectfarms Mar 11 2012, 09:11 AM
I have never made a dime on a brit car. My experience with them is the owners don't value them. I mean they seem to sell nice cars cheap because they have to or no one would buy them. I had a Cali rust free 59 MGA with a fresh interior, nice paint and trim and a fresh bored out 5 main engine. I had no interest when selling that car above
$ 8000.00. Sad.. Same with Beetles. I have one of the most solid 66 Bugs from Cali I have ever seen. I know the history. I painted the car for the P.O. 16 years ago. Tried to sell it, no interest at $ 6000.00. There are too many patch up rust buckets that look good on the surface selling cheap.
There is no money to be made restoring cars and selling them in this market. If your doing it, do it because you like to not as an investment. Just have fun with it. The market will come around in time.
Similar experiences and I agree with your conclusions, possibly excepting a special model that you luck into buying below market. That's true for anything though.
What I think we're saying is that 914 is not particularly underpriced given its original value, No. produced, and vintage. Yes?
Posted by: J P Stein Mar 11 2012, 09:29 AM
I concur with the $2500 Miata bit. If I ever buy/build another 2 seater that is gonna be it......why? CHEEP PARTS, a decent engine/trans and a rust resistant no slop chassis.
Posted by: Germancar-Junkie Mar 11 2012, 09:46 AM
IMHO we are living in the "Barrett Jackson" era. It is rare to find any vehicle that was actually driven that is worth a fraction of the climate-controlled garage-kept specimens. Teeners are at a significant disadvantage considering their mixed heritage and rust prone components.
In all honesty, how many people do you know that have ever gotten ALL their money back out of a restoration? Buy high, sell low is my motto. 
I would much rather drive my pieces of 
and have a blast than to dust it off every Sunday only to turn out the garage light and wave goodbye to it until the next Sunday. 
Posted by: damesandhotrods Mar 11 2012, 11:20 AM
The 914 was expensive, it was always saddled with the I want the -6 for the -4 price. There were plenty of MGBs TR-4s et-al available on the used market, so there were more I had one, my uncle had one and all of that. I think what hurt the value was the 240-260-280z series. The other way to increase used car value is having it in a movie or tv show, which wasn’t a success either.
Posted by: unpolire Mar 11 2012, 11:50 AM
Well said and I fully agree. Values will climb as more and more cars are sacrificed to repair others. Rust has taken its toll as well. Most cars are heading to Holland and Germany where their long-term collectibility due to their relative rarity is recognized. If they had all been 6-cylinders, the stigma would have been gone. It's a great "modern" design with outstanding balance lacking only 100-200 hp to be superlative. Disclaimer: I am a serious collector with tens of marques from Italy, the US, and Germany, and the 914 is the lowest-powered of the group, but I appreciate its neat concept and acceptance of modern upgrades in powerplants and chassis refinements. Thanks, Porsche!
Many of these cars are driver quality. They are nice but used. Many of the cars we see in our classifieds are nice maintained drivers. The top quality cars with nicer than average paint, clean, clean interiors and solid no rust cars (maybe had surface rust that was properly repaired) are commanding good prices. The 6's will always from here on bring top dollar but I think the cream of the crop 4's are doing well. If you want to sell any car for top dollar you need to make it stand out from the rest.
Posted by: porschefile2010 Mar 11 2012, 12:06 PM
I agree unpolire. There is a little bit of magic with the 914. I'm no collector, but I have a 930LE and a daily drive 944S2. But the 914 I can do all the work myself. It has technology I can understand and deal with in my own garage. I enjoy the journey working on the 914 as much as the destination.
I would like to think that in ten years time the 914 will become a cult car like the Beetle. Looking at the various forums the process is well under way and will accelerate as more are scrapped and more are brought up to driven and well maintained standard.
Posted by: davesprinkle Mar 11 2012, 05:33 PM
" the PCA 911 crowd still mostly looks askance at us"
This is bullshit and its time for folks on this forum to put this one in the dustbin.
I can't speak for the legitimacy of the alleged PCA bias against 914s, but Heckmann-Thiemann service in Portland, OR wouldn't put a wrench on my car. "We don't work on 914s," the guy said. When I pointed out that it had the same suspension as the long-nose 911 on one side of it and the same engine as the bus on the other side, he asked me to leave.
First time I'd ever seen first-hand evidence of the rumored anti-914 prejudice. Surprised the hell out of me.
The BMW shop down the road had no such reservations, though...
Posted by: MikeSpraggi Mar 11 2012, 05:36 PM
That is a good question. For me, I went into this not caring about if or when they appreciate. It was very affordable fun, and still is. Not planning on selling mine, but I agree the VW stigma may always hold the value down compared to what 914 enthusiasts think it should be. Also, they were mass produced as an entry level car with "anemic performance" I believe it was said in a car magazine's review.
I had parked my teener in front of the door to one of the rest stops on I-95 between DC and New York. Two late twenty early thirtyish guys were coming out of the door and saw my car. One says to the other "That's Volkswagen's idea of what a Porsche should be". There's the stigma, after all of these years!
I think that if you compair the resale cost difference between a 914-4 verses a 914-6 the VW Stigma appears to be directed more towards the flat 4 engine then the car it's self. Personally I don't care I'm having too much fun just driving mine to worry about what it's worth.
Point is, the average person doesn't even know about the existence of the 914/6 to distunguish it from it's /4 sibling. Then you will find "some" car enthusiasts that may know about the /4's vs. the /6's. Those that do know understand the pricing and thus dictate how much these cars will actually be purchased for.
Again for me, it's not about the value or perceived value. I just like these cars. I like that people have to ask what is it, that they are "underdogs" on the track, that they are quirky looking, that they have a parentage "issue" and any other thing that makes these cars what they are.
By the way, I had a bunch of wise cracks (all in fun) made about my /4 when I started PCA DE events .... not one wise crack since I've had the /6 at the events, in fact many, many compliments. So /4 or /6, the 911 crowd knows this is family and is not going away.
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 11 2012, 05:55 PM
DISCLOSURE - I own ... a Manx
.
Posted by: RickS Mar 11 2012, 05:57 PM
" the PCA 911 crowd still mostly looks askance at us"
This is bullshit and its time for folks on this forum to put this one in the dustbin.
I can't speak for the legitimacy of the alleged PCA bias against 914s, but Heckmann-Thiemann service in Portland, OR wouldn't put a wrench on my car. "We don't work on 914s," the guy said. When I pointed out that it had the same suspension as the long-nose 911 on one side of it and the same engine as the bus on the other side, he asked me to leave.
First time I'd ever seen first-hand evidence of the rumored anti-914 prejudice. Surprised the hell out of me.
The BMW shop down the road had no such reservations, though...
Don't feel bad about the dealership not working on 914s, they won't touch air cooled 911s either. The techs don't know or understand the technology, or where to plug in the diagnositic.
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Mar 11 2012, 07:55 PM
[quote name='74porsche914' date='Mar 10 2012, 06:37 PM' post='1643245']
Just been wondering why 914's aren't worth more moolah.
The fact that many 914 owners themselves show so little regard for the "as-built" configuration of the car certainly does not help matters. A person looking to expand a modest "collection" would see so many seriously modified from OEM 914s that he would think that there must not be anything of serious value to the car. Our dispassionate "collector" would see Subie and all manner of other engines replacing the OEM item. Stock, narrow body chassis' have come under a significant assortment of modifications, from subtle to moderate to outrageous. If our would-be "investor", "collector", or nostalga driven baby boomer was going to spend some significant dollars, why would he think a 914 would be worthwhile when he has seen so many, so modified, so heavily. And before the counterpoint of "people really like my car", remember, our theoretical "collector" doesn't recall 914s looking the way your car does, "back in the day".
Our 914s are not 289 Cobras, '63 split-windows, Tri-power GTOs, E-types, and of course decent examples of cars like that are not being modified.
But when nice, original MG-As, A-H 3000s, TR-4/6s are bringing some crazy money, our hypothetical "collector" may turn his nose up at our 914s, thinking to himself "Those cars can't be worth much, everybodys' swapping engines and cutting the bodywork up"
Paul
Posted by: RobW Mar 11 2012, 08:04 PM
The early 70s was an odd time for cars. Even for 911s.
The 914 continues to have an odd following. I don't get why a 914/6 as rare as it is goes for $35M+. Have you driven a stock 2.0 914/6?
You look at a 2002 911 today and get a ton of technology for $25-30M. Its hard to think a /4 will ever get there, but I could be very wrong.
The fact is, every 914 owner I meet loves to drive. Period. I could care less about the value... my widow can figure that out.
Posted by: shuie Mar 11 2012, 08:39 PM
Worth more than what?
It's all relative.
Posted by: damesandhotrods Mar 11 2012, 09:49 PM
" the PCA 911 crowd still mostly looks askance at us"
This is bullshit and its time for folks on this forum to put this one in the dustbin.
I can't speak for the legitimacy of the alleged PCA bias against 914s, but Heckmann-Thiemann service in Portland, OR wouldn't put a wrench on my car. "We don't work on 914s," the guy said. When I pointed out that it had the same suspension as the long-nose 911 on one side of it and the same engine as the bus on the other side, he asked me to leave.
First time I'd ever seen first-hand evidence of the rumored anti-914 prejudice. Surprised the hell out of me.
The BMW shop down the road had no such reservations, though...
After my Type 3 VW experiences with Heckmann and Thiemann, you and your 914 might be better off.
When I needed a new alternator, Marque Motors wouldn’t touch a 914 either.
Posted by: RobW Mar 12 2012, 12:59 AM
" the PCA 911 crowd still mostly looks askance at us"
This is bullshit and its time for folks on this forum to put this one in the dustbin.
I can't speak for the legitimacy of the alleged PCA bias against 914s, but Heckmann-Thiemann service in Portland, OR wouldn't put a wrench on my car. "We don't work on 914s," the guy said. When I pointed out that it had the same suspension as the long-nose 911 on one side of it and the same engine as the bus on the other side, he asked me to leave.
First time I'd ever seen first-hand evidence of the rumored anti-914 prejudice. Surprised the hell out of me.
The BMW shop down the road had no such reservations, though...
I used to get the same at local Pca events. Turned it around. If the didn't like 914s I would have nothing in common. Even when they liked my 993.
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 12 2012, 05:36 AM
But when nice, original MG-As, A-H 3000s, TR-4/6s are bringing some crazy money, our hypothetical "collector" may turn his nose up at our 914s, thinking to himself "Those cars can't be worth much, everybodys' swapping engines and cutting the bodywork up"
Yeah, but that's a specious argument. People modify 914's because they respond well to the modifications and they're cheap, so nothing lost. If they were fetching XKE or MGA prices the're be less modifying going on, but they're not fetching those prices.
The original question was why 914's aren't worth more. The answer is that they're worth what they're worth. If they were worth more people would pay more, but they don't. What you're doing is confusing appreciation with value. The zen observation is what they're worth to other people is irrelevant, what is it worth to you? And from the materialistic point of view I'd add that you didn't pay much for it when you bought it, so is it really a problem that you don't get much for it when you sell it? And in between screw it, go drive it and congratulate yourself for the fine decision you made and the great deal you got.
Posted by: Nozzle Mar 12 2012, 07:39 AM
I remember reading some time ago in a Hemmings article IIRC that as a general rule, cars that were loved in their day are usually just as loved as collector cars and command prices accordingly. I can't think of too many exceptions to that rule. 914s had mixed reactions in their day and I think still do. Just read the comments on bringatrailer.com when a 914 is posted.
I'm thinking that most folks on this forum that were around when they were new probably feel the same way today about 914s as they did back in the day. I know I do. The 914 plastic model I built when I was twelve was red, the one in my garage is yellow and I'm proud of them both. 
Posted by: carr914 Mar 12 2012, 07:49 AM
[quote name='1970 Neun vierzehn' date='Mar 11 2012, 09:55 PM' post='1643817']
[quote name='74porsche914' date='Mar 10 2012, 06:37 PM' post='1643245']
Just been wondering why 914's aren't worth more moolah.
The fact that many 914 owners themselves show so little regard for the "as-built" configuration of the car certainly does not help matters. A person looking to expand a modest "collection" would see so many seriously modified from OEM 914s that he would think that there must not be anything of serious value to the car. Our dispassionate "collector" would see Subie and all manner of other engines replacing the OEM item. Stock, narrow body chassis' have come under a significant assortment of modifications, from subtle to moderate to outrageous. If our would-be "investor", "collector", or nostalga driven baby boomer was going to spend some significant dollars, why would he think a 914 would be worthwhile when he has seen so many, so modified, so heavily. And before the counterpoint of "people really like my car", remember, our theoretical "collector" doesn't recall 914s looking the way your car does, "back in the day".
Our 914s are not 289 Cobras, '63 split-windows, Tri-power GTOs, E-types, and of course decent examples of cars like that are not being modified.
But when nice, original MG-As, A-H 3000s, TR-4/6s are bringing some crazy money, our hypothetical "collector" may turn his nose up at our 914s, thinking to himself "Those cars can't be worth much, everybodys' swapping engines and cutting the bodywork up"
Paul
[/quote]
I don't know about you, but when I was growing up in the 70's, every single car I saw was modified, especially Corvettes. American Iron was being jacked-up high as a kite in the Rear end and don't get me going on 911's - how many hack slope-noses, extended rear flare, blinged-out cars P-Cars
[quote name='RobW' date='Mar 11 2012, 10:04 PM' post='1643830']
The early 70s was an odd time for cars. Even for 911s.
The 914 continues to have an odd following. I don't get why a 914/6 as rare as it is goes for $35M+. Have you driven a stock 2.0 914/6?
You look at a 2002 911 today and get a ton of technology for $25-30M. Its hard to think a /4 will ever get there, but I could be very wrong.
[/quote]
The reason a 2002 911 is so cheap ( & I have seen a bunch way below your price) is the IMS Failures & accompanning engine failures. Even the cars with the Raby IMS fix can't shake the stigma of a Bad Design
Posted by: flippa Mar 12 2012, 08:06 AM
The 914 continues to have an odd following.
that must be why there are a bunch of odd people around here. 
Posted by: reharvey Mar 12 2012, 08:18 AM
These cars have been my hobby for 20 + years. I've scraped 2 and rebuilt 5. The low price for these cars and the parts to rebuild them is what got me started in this hobby. Now I wish they were worth a little more because it's getting time to sell of my heard but it's been a lot of fun having these cars around. Seems to me the prices have risen in the last few years. Maybe there's still hope.
Posted by: mrholland2 Mar 12 2012, 08:57 AM
Sooo, "they" don't like the 4 cyl 914 but "they" do like the butt-ass ugly 4 cyl 912? (Sorry, I just think that early 911/912 body style is horrid).
I am baffled at the "VW" stigma since REAL Porsches and VWs are air cooled. (Yes, I think all the water cooled cars are fake VWs and fake Porsches).
I drove mine Saturday (it was nice and my car isn't ready for below 50 degree weather with me behind the wheel yet) and it flat out can SCOOT. Some dippy kid in a fairly new BMW couldn't keep up in a straight, much less a curvy, road. Maybe I just know how to drive and he doesn't?
I bought my car last summer and I've seen prices creep up since then. I think we are on the cusp.
Posted by: billh1963 Mar 12 2012, 09:08 AM
When I first bought mine car (and subsequent cars) I also thought we were on the cusp. Now, I'm not so sure.
I think really nice cars will continue to see normal appreciation (don't forget that true inflation is 8%); however, there will not be meteoric rise in appreciation. In all honesty, there is no driving force behind it.
Few, if any, aspired to a 914. If you lusted for a Porsche, it was a 911 you coveted. Cars that have skyrocketed were the ones people wanted but couldn't afford.
The high cost of gas, parts prices, etc. will continue to be a drag on the bottom end of the collector car market....which is where these cars sit.
I'm not saying that they aren't worth fixing...because they are. They certainly aren't depreciating. The idea that you will buy one and do a quick "cleanup" and flip it for big bucks just isn't realistic. Your best best is to buy one for the long term. You will never get rich off of it; however, you will get driving pleasure from it while you have it and will hold your own when you sell it later.
Posted by: rjames Mar 12 2012, 10:08 AM
" the PCA 911 crowd still mostly looks askance at us"
This is bullshit and its time for folks on this forum to put this one in the dustbin.
I can't speak for the legitimacy of the alleged PCA bias against 914s, but Heckmann-Thiemann service in Portland, OR wouldn't put a wrench on my car. "We don't work on 914s," the guy said. When I pointed out that it had the same suspension as the long-nose 911 on one side of it and the same engine as the bus on the other side, he asked me to leave.
First time I'd ever seen first-hand evidence of the rumored anti-914 prejudice. Surprised the hell out of me.
The BMW shop down the road had no such reservations, though...
Before realizing I could do most if not all of the work on my 914 myself, I also heard the "We don't work on these cars" from both a privately owned Porsche garage and a VW dealership. The work I had requested was simply to check the fuel pressure.
I used to like the look of the Miatas, that is until they were as common as Camrys. At 6'2" I can't even fit into one unless I want to position my kneecaps somewhere near my molars. In my 914 I have to move the seat up a notch and my head still clears the roof by a couple of inches.
Posted by: euro911 Mar 12 2012, 11:15 AM
It's obvious there's a valid appreciation for the 914s uniqueness, based on the number of people on this and other 914 boards.
I really didn't like the boxy look of 914s when they first hit the market. I have to say that my original perceptions were also formed by the mainstream Porsche crowd's view that 914s were just a bastard step-child. I too, liked 356s and 911s more (as well as 550s, 904s, etc.), but then I actually drove a 914 in '73 and started feeling differently about them.
I've noted price increases over the past few years. Maybe not the big bucks that other classics fetch, but we've all seen some nice examples command significant money, in both drive train configurations.
I also think it's just a matter of time ... as the supply of good stock specimens dwindle and more are scrapped to rebuild others, I believe we'll see prices start to increase significantly, just like 912s.
Posted by: Scott S Mar 12 2012, 11:33 AM
"Few, if any, aspired to a 914. If you lusted for a Porsche, it was a 911 you coveted. Cars that have skyrocketed were the ones people wanted but couldn't afford."
There is no market for these cars. I would be willing to be that the members of our webpage family make up 95% - maybe even 99% - of the market for these cars. And while there are definitely exceptions, for the most part we are looking for a deal. Everytime a nice car comes up for sale with a larger asking price, there is almost always a discussion pointing out what is wrong with the car and why it is over priced.
A GT with history will always sell fast and for big money. The sixes obviously do better, but personally (like what is quoted above) if given the option between concours 914-6 and a very nice 911 long nose driver, I would absolutely go for the long nose - and I love 914's.
The -4's will always be an also ran to most folks outside of this community.
I dont forsee the average values ever remotely reaching the levels of the 356 or the 911 until we (the 914 community) are willing to pay that kind of money for a car.
Yes, yes - I know - we have seen some cars sell for decent money. But that thought process is backwards. In the 911 and 356 circles the cars have consistantly strong selling prices - the odd balls are not the ones that go for big money, they are the ones that sell for cheap.
Love them for what they are. I sure do. I want a real GT - hopefully someday. I also really want a V8! 
Posted by: porschefile2010 Mar 12 2012, 01:10 PM
Nice to see a very clean 74' 1.8 for sale over on Samba at $14.5k. If it's as good as it looks he might just get it too.
We are definately seeing a split between keeping cars absolutely original with owners hoping for appreciation and major peformance improvements where the car loses it's originality.
Personally I'm in the originality camp, and achieving a good original car can cost but also be very satisfying.
I can also understand why people stick more power, suspension and brakes in them as they are a perfect platform for it. Porsche tried to do that back in 1970 but it was too expensive.
Each to their own. Whichever way you look at it they are a great little car.
Posted by: mepstein Mar 12 2012, 01:13 PM
Many are worth more in parts than trying to restore. The cost of restoring a rusted body kiils it for many cars.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 12 2012, 05:49 PM
The Next Question ( while somewhat related) is a what point would we have "jumped the shark"?. I mean at what Dollar Point are we going to be satisfied, but yet not lose enthuists?. There comes a point where they won't be an "affordable" Classic. Don't we kind of see this here already, where people would love to have a "-6", but may never be able to pull out the cheese unless they find one in a Barn
Posted by: DBCooper Mar 12 2012, 06:28 PM
That's a good point. If 914's appreciate like some people hope then not many of the CSOB's who currently frequent this place would still be here.
Posted by: Scott S Mar 12 2012, 09:59 PM
"... at what point would we have "jumped the shark""
I hope they never do. I hope the cars stay cheap. This site and this group of people is why I come here. I get to play Porsche with real car guys that I enjoy. There is very little/none of the common problems that are usually asscciated with a prestige brand. There are plenty of other models/marques/web pages/clubs that a person can go to argue about what direction screw heads should be pointed or to be chastized for modifying a car or asking a "dumb" question. Go to a Jag club meeting. I would rather brand myself with a soldering iron. No thanks.
There is something different about folks who like 914's, regardless of their back ground. I love that. 
Posted by: larryM Mar 13 2012, 12:29 AM
Great discussion!
- I agree with the comment below - I fear we are our own market - and a small one at best - most of us have a need to sell the 914 we have before we can get the something else
I do see fellows who already own a 911 deciding to get a 914 for a father-son project, or as a time-trial car for themselves or a family member - 914's are acknowledged even by 911 guys as one of the best PCA track cars you can field - even if one is less than enamored of the styling - outside of PCA the 914's acceptance is a different matter
in that - the PORSCHE MYSTIQUE is a powerful factor - the Porsche Club is a superb social network that few other car clubs can rival - and fortunately PCA is large enuf to accomodate all kinds of events and diversity of interests
PCA comraderie and events opportunity is the main thing that has kept me from selling my own 914 (tho i've been caught saying i'd trade it in a heartbeat for a Tiptronic Boxster S) - owning anything PORSCHE means we get to be in the best car club there is - (at least for as long as the older 911 & 356 guys keep doing all the club work)
- at general "all-makes" vintage car shows and cruises I find my 914 is an attraction to little kids & to lots of folks who "had one in college"
- y'all will find that a night at a local cruise, or a week at Hot August Nights or other car events, will be filled with many admirers and long conversations about the 914 they once had,
(little kids think our 914s are cute - like toys, like they popped out of a crackerjack or happy meal box)
you'll also be regaled with stories about the one they have in the backyard or barn and are "gonna restore someday", or "put in a six"
or the 914-4 that the brother-in-law spent $10,000 on flares, paint & upholstery, but can't get it to run or pass SMOG or some such problem and it's not registred - - "and would you know anybody who wants to buy it????"
(the answer is "yes, but expect to get back only about 30% of the "investment"") -
(i have luckily gotten back as much as 50% of the cash i've sunk into a "restored car") ( on the other hand i have actually made money on 914/6's and 911's i have bought & parted out instead of fixing - you'd think i'd get the message)
(we can't talk about the contributed labor in the "investment" - tho i often see that as part of the value pitch on cars i look at)
- as the lady of the house points out - "that car is just a hobby - think of it as a trip to London, or a night at the slot machines - the money is gone" -
regarding the VW myth -
I meet lots of young guys at these local cruise events who have one of those non-running basketcase 914s in the backyard, usually inherited by abandonment
- they want to know about finding parts, engines, etc (I am always happy to freely give info on sources & prices, and I often offer to look at their projects and give help & advice, and I tout the benefits of PCA) - and they are generally delighted to learn they can find VW parts to get on the road, and of course make it fast, dreaming of how great a car they are going to have one day by the sweat of their labor and minimal cost -
- I hear only an occasional snide "VW" catcall from some teenager who loves flaming tailpipes low-riders and doesn't even own a car yet, who is nevertheless trying to amuse his entourage
There is no market for these cars. I would be willing to be that the members of our webpage family make up 95% - maybe even 99% - of the market for these cars. And while there are definitely exceptions, for the most part we are looking for a deal. Everytime a nice car comes up for sale with a larger asking price, there is almost always a discussion pointing out what is wrong with the car and why it is over priced.
Posted by: Woody Mar 13 2012, 06:30 AM
I happen to work at one of those dealerships that wont touch a 914. As a matter of fact, we won't hardly touch anything older than 90 unless it is in great shape. This is not because we don't know how, it is because we are way too busy with the new cars and there are cheaper alternatives locally that I can highly recommend. I have actually worked on a 914 that was brought through the dealership by our used car department. I replaced a throttle cable and syncronized the carbs. It was a rare occurance.
Our dealership charges $135 an hour, how many of ya'll would be willing to pay that for even a simple oil change or valve adjust?
Posted by: SchwarzHorse Mar 13 2012, 08:31 AM
A current market guage: Black original '73 with 1.7L for over $10,000.00, so far. Watch for yourself and aspire:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=160758039807&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT
Posted by: billh1963 Mar 13 2012, 09:34 AM
A current market guage: Black original '73 with 1.7L for over $10,000.00, so far. Watch for yourself and aspire:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/?cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649&item=160758039807&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWAX%3AIT
Of course, you never know how much shill bidding is occuring as well.
Posted by: Sea Dragon 914 Mar 13 2012, 09:36 AM
I've been driving 914's for almost 30 years. I remember in high school in the late 70's and early 80's that 914s had a bad reputation. As others mentioned, they were not considered "real Porsches" unless they had a six. I remember going to early Porsche events (back when Riverside International was around if any of you remember) and seeing tee shirts that had 914 that said real Porsches with the highlighted "6".
Back in the day in SoCal, 914's were more associated with VW's by the younger group. When I was in high school (and probably before and since), the coveted cars were the muscle cars or the exotics. Driving around in my dad's 76 Triumph Spitfire got a lot of attention because it was cute. That car was a gutless pos that was always in the shop.
When I got my first 914, my friends asked why I got that and didn't spend a little more to get a real Porsche like a 912 or 924. I remember getting my doors blown off by a few of my friends' muscle cars, bugs, ghias and even a modified mini truck with a V6 in it. Funny thing was they smoked me in the straight line and when we drove from San Bernardino to my parent's cabin in Arrowhead or vice versa, I have my stuff out of the car and be relaxing before they arrived. They used to say that my ugly "VW" was gutless in the straight line and couldn't believe what it could do in the twisties. They also said it was a pretty ugly car and couldn't tell if I was coming or going since it was so boxy.
The other thing about the 914s was that they are a pain to work on and expensive if you pay someone else to work on them. Body work sucked because of the unit body construction (is that what it was called). If you dinged a fender, you couldn't just unbolt it to replace it.
Anyway, I've loved the cars and have owned one since 1983 (might have been 1984). I don't know why I didn't get a 911 or something else. They just felt right to me. Of course sometime I kick myself for buying my first 74 2.0 instead of the Jag XKE or the 64 Corvette convertible. 
Posted by: avidfanjpl Mar 13 2012, 10:37 AM
There are a lot of very valid points here. I think the car is increasing in value for good ones, with Steve Gaglione's being 2 of the top one's anywhere.
I think that the phenomena has to do with time and appreciation by a group of people that are making more money, and that DO NOT have the 356 appreciation, simply because of their current age and their 1970-1990 youthful experiences. I have owned 6 since 1975. And now I own a 1987 Carrera. Again, youthful lusts come home to roost!
I just finished sorting my 1972 914-6 conversion AX car, and my 1973 914-2.0 mechanically, and unless someone comes along and throws money at me, I will hold Orangina for the decade coming to see how it fares.
No, I don't expect to make money, but if you don't need the money, especially right away, and you like driving it a couple of days a month, you can enjoy it and not lose money.
I think that the style is still so unique that it will always turn heads and elicit college roommate comments, as does mine.
But, until that wave of 356's gets firmly cemented into history and air-conditioned collections, the 914 must wait.
Check out that very interesting article in Hemmings this month. I just got it from a bud in SW FL and it is exactly what is happening. 356's are sky high, and 914's are getting more credible every year that passes.
We are not crazy for loving the style.
John
Posted by: larryM Mar 13 2012, 03:01 PM
see this long parallel value thread on the Early S Registry -
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forums/showthread.php?64798-Porsche-914-6-collectability
I have seen several recent posts here saying y'all have spent $5K or so just on your paint jobs, after ya personallly did hundreds of hours of prep & fixit
in yesterday's MGDriver - DIY article on a complete color change strip-repaint - " it costs $2000 in materials and $10,000 in labor at current shop rates" -
"If you are a True Believer, keep your eye on the prize and understand that, although your own passion might be great, others won't necessarily share it. " (~ Isaac Seliger )
[quote name='DBCooper' date='Mar 12 2012, 03:36 AM' post='1644068']
[/quote]
The original question was why 914's aren't worth more. The answer is that they're worth what they're worth. If they were worth more people would pay more, but they don't. ...... you didn't pay much for it when you bought it, so is it really a problem that you don't get much for it when you sell it? [/quote]
Posted by: billh1963 Mar 13 2012, 04:39 PM
In the end, the biggest winners will be those who buy the car because they like it and drive it as often as possible. Lots of people have tried to predict the market and lost. I look back at the people who bought TR8's, TR6's, DeLoreans, etc. and put them away.... expecting the big increase that never came.
Buy the car you like, enjoy it as often as possble, keep it well maintained and don't worry about it! You may be sitting on a goldmine....but, even if you aren't you won't lose money.
Posted by: struckn Mar 13 2012, 07:29 PM
Reality check!
....when you bought yours, if the price was two or three times higher then what you paid would you have still bought it? Probibly not and you would not be having so much fun having one now.
....If your 914's value jumps to twice or three times it's current value would you still drive it with out a higher degree of fear that you might ding it or park it somewhere that there was a risk of theft or damage....i.e. Wal-Mart parking lot?
.....Would you drive it as often, or only on special occasions, events, or never at all.
.....If you lost you 914, hopefully not, would you feel like a large part of your retirement investment just went up in smoke, or no college fund for your kids?
Posted by: larryM Apr 5 2012, 11:36 AM
check this op-ed by Martin Swig
http://www.sportscardigest.com/collector-cars-as-investments/
.
Posted by: poorsche914 Apr 5 2012, 11:58 AM
I find it interesting that he actually mentioned the 914 in a short list of cars:
"Much later, MGBs, Mustangs, Camaros, 914s, GTVs and 240Zs were important to us. And now that we have some money, we’re only too happy to write a big check to buy a memory."
Posted by: Scott S Apr 5 2012, 12:26 PM
And now that we have some money, we’re only too happy to write a big check to buy a memory.
I stand by my beleif that a 914 is a long way from being viewed as a true collector car to those who are not part of the 914 community.
- however -
your post did just remind me that I seriously tossed around the idea of dropping 12k+ on a mint green 1978 VW Rabbit a few years ago! Those were great days!!
Posted by: Dustin Apr 5 2012, 01:09 PM
I remember the first time I ever saw one of these cars. I was about 8 years old. It passed us on the freeway as I was in the back seat of my dad's Oldsmobile. I said something like wow what kinda car is that. My dad told me it was a Porsche. I said it sounds like a bug. He said well, it has a Volkswagen engine. I thought they were cool ever since that day.
Prices for these cars are going up for examples in good condition. Here's a 76 2.0 that looks stock to me that sold for 17k. While this car is totally clean, this isn't a prime example. Everybody really wants 73s and 74s.
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=41.1&aid=443&pop=0
Heres a 1.8 that sold for 17k too. Again not a prime example.
http://www.barrett-jackson.com/application/onlinesubmission/lotdetails.aspx?ln=623.1&aid=403&pop=0
Nearly all of the 914s that I see for sale are rotting or have been chopped up. This does mean there parts are available and deals to be had. Remember though, for collectors the most important things are condition and originality. Cars that are not as designed by VW/Porsche are never going to be near the top of the value curve.
A connection with Volkswagen isn't a bad thing these days. Volkswagen has a huge following.
Posted by: 65tuxedo Apr 5 2012, 01:27 PM
When I decided that I wanted a 914, I did not find them to be cheap anywhere. Searched Craigslist and Ebay for a while before finding one that was what I wanted. Paid more than it cost new probably.
I intend to sell it for more. Been enjoying owning and selling fun cars for 45 years, so my intention is not just a wish or a guess.
Maybe everyone on these 914 boards should raise their prices!!If we control 99% of the cars as suggested, we could also control the prices.
Just saying...
Posted by: mepstein Apr 5 2012, 01:35 PM
"If we control 99% of the cars as suggested, we could also control the prices."
If we make up the majority of the sellers then it follows that we also make up the majority of the buyers. So it's doubtful that we are going to be fooled by our own pricing scheme.
Posted by: gothspeed Apr 5 2012, 04:45 PM
"If we control 99% of the cars as suggested, we could also control the prices."
If we make up the majority of the sellers then it follows that we also make up the majority of the buyers. So it's doubtful that we are going to be fooled by our own pricing scheme.
+1 .......... lol ...........
...........
Posted by: Laura-4-Lyfe Apr 5 2012, 07:44 PM
Summer, 1998
I am 19 and I am bored with my 280z. We had been together for three years at this point and I was young and restless. I needed something new. The search began. After a month, which is an interminable amount of time when you are at this age, I narrow my choices down to three.
First up is a 1974 914. It is orange and looking back on it now a bit of a hack job. In my eyes she is beautiful. She is the German princess bringing giant steins of beer which I have been dreaming about since I was 15. Sun faded orange paint wrapped around a cracked desert interior. I could see all the businessmen I remember from growing up in LA driving this car. I wanted to be one of them.
Choice two is a 1965 El Camino. This is Detroit Steel at its finest. She is sporting a 350 with a three speed transmission. The shifter is on the column and I have to dig the owner’s manual out of the glove box to figure out where the gears are. It was a test drive for the ages. This is the kind of car my dad would be proud of.
The third runner up was a slightly younger girl from the UK. She was a 1980 British racing green Triumph TR7. I could only imagine all of the pretty rich girls flocking to me as I pulled up to school in this beauty. She had a tan convertible top and a tan interior. Everything looked mint. I could only hope a fraction of the British class this car offered would rub off on me. I wanted to be James Bond.
Each of these cars were for sale for the same princely sum of 3000 hard earned American dollars. After an agonizing week of beach volleyball and booze I came to a decision. I took my money and I purchased the El Camino.
Looking back on everything now this was the right decision. There was no way I would have been able to keep either of the other cars on the road through college. The El Camino not only made it through college but is still with me to this day. How this happened? I can not say. I was not very nice to the poor girl. But I regretted not purchasing that 914. It haunted my dreams. The few I would see on the road would taunt me. I swear their drivers would sneer at me. They knew what I had given up.
Fast forward to October of last year. The stars aligned and almost 14 years later I purchased a 1971 914 - 4. I still walk into my garage and I am surprised it is there. This has been my dream car since I let that one go back in 1998. I do not care how much it is worth.
Posted by: 65tuxedo Apr 5 2012, 10:19 PM
The "scheme" wouldn't affect us. It would only make a diff to newcomers. Maybe we aren't that hard to fool.
Posted by: larryM Apr 5 2012, 11:21 PM
. yep - hope and thrill spring eternal;
i migrated to the 914 via VW bugs, then Corvairs,
then - one day in 1976 my bro said he wanted to import and sell his "special" 914-6 so he could buy a 230SL
one ride - i fell in love - i still own it
- i started racing it in 1992 - then made it "PCA show eligible" in 2005
it is still a thrilling experience to zoom around the mountain roads, revel in the full-chat of the webers at 7200, and feel glued to the 2-lane blacktop beneath
great thrills and satisfaction - except i don't often do it anymore
- 2 hrs in that Scheel seat is about all i can handle - no more enduros for this aging human chassis
meanwhile i've appreciated sojurns with another dozen 914's, spent thousands, and learned too much that is somewhat irrelevant to anything modern
i have driven a Boxster tiptronic - i think i couuld swap in a heartbeat
Posted by: scotty b Apr 6 2012, 12:07 AM
"If we control 99% of the cars as suggested, we could also control the prices."
If we make up the majority of the sellers then it follows that we also make up the majority of the buyers. So it's doubtful that we are going to be fooled by our own pricing scheme.
Oh no you don't. How dare you try and bring logic into this discussion
Posted by: unpolire Apr 6 2012, 03:58 AM
yep - hope and thrill spring eternal;
i have driven a Boxster tiptronic - i think i could swap in a heartbeat
A friend had a rental car company with unusual cars like an Aston Martin Lagonda, Series Land Rovers, BMW Cabrios, and Boxsters. Rented a Boxster 5-speed for a date night. My wife always hated our 1971 914-4. The Boxster was everything I thought that the 914 could have been. Wife loved it. The new Boxster "S" is probably perfect. Our 15-year old has selected the 1972 914-4 for his first car, passing over a BMW 633CSi, Alfa Romeo Spider Veloce, or Mazda RX-7 Convertible already in the driveway. Says a lot!
Posted by: rwilner Apr 6 2012, 07:17 AM
Here's why I bought a 914--
I've always owned fun cars since I could drive. I got married and traded my GTI VR6 for a honda accord 5 speed.
Driving the accord was like driving a toaster.
My wife knew I couldn't stand it and we talked about getting a fun car as a DD. I looked at audis, BMWs, used late model 911s (way too impractical no matter how hard Porsche pushes "Porsche Everyday." I couldn't fit a set of golf clubs in an 03 911 without major contortions.)
I found a 914 and paid for it in cash about 25% of what it would have cost to trade in the accord for a BMW, and I kept the accord. As a bonus, I get to work on the car, which I discovered I enjoy almost as much as driving it. What I spend in parts equals the difference in maintenance and insurance I would have had to pay if I had bought the higher priced german car.
Everyone justifies the purchase differently, this worked for us...getting the 914 was actually the most economical way for me to satisfy my need for a fun car.
When (if) it comes time to sell, I'm sure I'll be able to get at least what I paid for it.
Posted by: carr914 Apr 6 2012, 09:01 AM
Summer, 1998
I am 19 and I am bored with my 280z. We had been together for three years at this point and I was young and restless. I needed something new. The search began. After a month, which is an interminable amount of time when you are at this age, I narrow my choices down to three.
First up is a 1974 914. It is orange and looking back on it now a bit of a hack job. In my eyes she is beautiful. She is the German princess bringing giant steins of beer which I have been dreaming about since I was 15. Sun faded orange paint wrapped around a cracked desert interior. I could see all the businessmen I remember from growing up in LA driving this car. I wanted to be one of them.
Choice two is a 1965 El Camino. This is Detroit Steel at its finest. She is sporting a 350 with a three speed transmission. The shifter is on the column and I have to dig the owner’s manual out of the glove box to figure out where the gears are. It was a test drive for the ages. This is the kind of car my dad would be proud of.
The third runner up was a slightly younger girl from the UK. She was a 1980 British racing green Triumph TR7. I could only imagine all of the pretty rich girls flocking to me as I pulled up to school in this beauty. She had a tan convertible top and a tan interior. Everything looked mint. I could only hope a fraction of the British class this car offered would rub off on me. I wanted to be James Bond.
Each of these cars were for sale for the same princely sum of 3000 hard earned American dollars. After an agonizing week of beach volleyball and booze I came to a decision. I took my money and I purchased the El Camino.
Looking back on everything now this was the right decision. There was no way I would have been able to keep either of the other cars on the road through college. The El Camino not only made it through college but is still with me to this day. How this happened? I can not say. I was not very nice to the poor girl. But I regretted not purchasing that 914. It haunted my dreams. The few I would see on the road would taunt me. I swear their drivers would sneer at me. They knew what I had given up.
Fast forward to October of last year. The stars aligned and almost 14 years later I purchased a 1971 914 - 4. I still walk into my garage and I am surprised it is there. This has been my dream car since I let that one go back in 1998. I do not care how much it is worth.
AND
Posted by: william1764 Apr 6 2012, 12:31 PM
" the PCA 911 crowd still mostly looks askance at us"
This is bullshit and its time for folks on this forum to put this one in the dustbin.
Posted by: Laura-4-Lyfe Apr 6 2012, 04:02 PM
AND
Thanks for the welcome. These are the only two pictures I have at the moment.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 6 2012, 04:59 PM
The early 70s was an odd time for cars. Even for 911s.
The 914 continues to have an odd following. I don't get why a 914/6 as rare as it is goes for $35M+. Have you driven a stock 2.0 914/6?
You look at a 2002 911 today and get a ton of technology for $25-30M. Its hard to think a /4 will ever get there, but I could be very wrong.
The fact is, every 914 owner I meet loves to drive. Period. I could care less about the value... my widow can figure that out.
It's that "rev forever sound" of the six. Nothing beats the sound of an early 911 motor. It's its own sound & nothing else (vintage compares...OKI, maybe a four cam).
Posted by: mepstein Apr 6 2012, 05:25 PM
The fours are really a gateway drug to the six's.
My one ride in a 3.2 was like putting a needle in my arm.
Posted by: sbsix Apr 6 2012, 05:37 PM
Pat, you hit the nail on the head. I first heard that air cooled 6 sound when I was 16 and it still gives me the same thrill almost 45 years later. It's the combination intake/mechanical/exhaust sound mix that brings out a smile every time.
Posted by: 74porsche914 Apr 6 2012, 06:39 PM
Wow! Haven't looked at this thread I started lately and really got some good entertainment. Thanks 914 World!
Posted by: Pat Garvey Apr 6 2012, 07:08 PM
I haven't had a rant in a while......
Why are 914 values lower than they should be? Several reasons, but not what everyone would think.
When I bought my 72 it cost me nearly a half years' wage. It was boxy, underpowered, and not cheap. After driving the TR6, which roasted mt feet, and being in a 6 month wait line for a 240Z (which arrived in the wrong color!) I made the committment to the 914. It was serious fun, and still is. I still own it.
That being said, here are the reasons why I feel the 914 fails to appreciate. Many of you will not like what I have to say.
The value of vintage cars (any) is determined by the desire to own one, demographics (including age of the buyer), and the condition of the car and its originality. Buyers today consider them an investment (NOT INCLIDING THIS FORUM), and expect to reap a profit at some time.
Modifications, for the most part, are detrimental to the value of the car, unless specifically condoned or performed by the factory. Ex:, a factory applied M471 package, or the factory parts supplied to a dealer for installation is OK, so long as it is documented.
As I said earlier, many of you will not be happy with what I have to say here, but it partially explains the lack of appreciation of the 914. Some examples, in no particular order.....
Six conversions - does the VIN/COA support it?
Carbs on a four - is it a euro version, with VIN/COA to match?
Shaved front side markers - see above.
Suby motors? Why?
GT converted bodywork?
These are just a few of the irreversible changes that will destroy collectability of the 914.
Raby motor, Interior changes, wheels, stereo systems can all be reversed, but when you make changes that cannot be reversed you've destroyed the 914's collectablility, and its associated sale value.
I don't know what the numbers of survivors is, be I'd be that it isn't higher than 60% of the original numbers produced (sixes excluded). That leaves about 65,000 (at best) 914-4s in the world. Those are low production numbers, and should produce higher resale values. Except.....too many have been modified beyond redemption. A four with working/intact FI is potentially collectible. A four with carbs and the FI system long gone is not. A six with a 2.0, or even an upgrade to a 2.2/2.4 is collectible. A six with a 3.2/3.6 is lost.
So, before I end my rant, and arouse the wrath of others, here is why the value of 914's does not raise in my opinion - the car lends itself to modification. Not a bad thing to the modifier who could care less about value, but a detriment to the collectability. I, as an original owner of an unmodified 914 don't care. My values will continue to rise. I also applaud those who've spent the bucks to make what they want a 914 to be - just think you've missed an opportunity.
Rant over.
Pat
Posted by: unpolire Apr 6 2012, 10:06 PM
"Why are 914 values lower than they should be? Several reasons, but not what everyone would think.
The value of vintage cars (any) is determined by the desire to own one, demographics (including age of the buyer), and the condition of the car and its originality. Buyers today consider them an investment (NOT INCLIDING THIS FORUM), and expect to reap a profit at some time."
Modifications, for the most part, are detrimental to the value of the car, unless specifically condoned or performed by the factory. Ex:, a factory applied M471 package, or the factory parts supplied to a dealer for installation is OK, so long as it is documented."
Pat
I tip my hand here, as a serious collector with more cars than I dare whisper (lest there be gasps of disbelief), by agreeing with Pat, on not just 914s in general, but ALL classic cars. I struggle with correcting every car I buy back to its original state when manufactured, unless there were important manufacturer upgrades or recalls. I am happy to see so many incredible engineers, designers, fabricators, and tinkerers doing amazing things to 914s, many of which would be lost to the crusher if not for this forum's incredible resourcefulness. So those happily saved personal masterpieces, every one, that have escaped the ravages of time, neglect, and rust, make me smile. I will keep original cars intact, as I could never be a dismantler, and have expended tens of thousands restoring cars that my professionals just shake their heads at, because preservation is my calling. IF I find a 914 missing its major components or with steel flares already attached, I will finish it as if the factory had continued production, rather than pass it by or see it crushed like so many in years past. I'm for the best of both worlds!
Posted by: carr914 Apr 7 2012, 07:28 AM
Some good points Pat, but a argument could be made that 356 "Outlaws" are Collectable. I also see a market for 914-6 Conversions after the Economy comes back.
Posted by: DBCooper Apr 7 2012, 09:20 AM
Pat, why so dour? Can I make an observation? You're assuming that an important reason to own one of these cars is appreciation, with a bonus of some polite late afternoon pleasure driving ("oh my, not too fast now, dear") with the wife. I point out, once again, that there are other better reasons to own a car. I don't WANT an MGA, no matter what the ROI. Nor a 356 or gold bullion, for that matter. I own a 914 for fun, and no other reason. And quite frankly I'd consider any car restricted to 165 tires to be too boring for consideration, and an upgrade to 185's is way short of a walk on the wild side.
If you don't understand the idea of a Subaru motor ("why?") I can explain. It's exciting. Some people like to ride screaming roller coasters. Other people prefer polite conversation in front of the TV. When I want to blow off some steam, get a few thrills, your car wouldn't deliver. Mine does. The best ROI I've ever found. Well, short of roller coasters.
And once again I say that the resale value of 914's is NOT low, it's exactly what people, buyers and sellers, have agreed that it should be. You bought it for not much so why do you complain when you sell it for not much? If you didn't have any fun in between that may be a terrible deal, but if you had fun it was excellent, and the more fun the better the deal. So what's the problem? Stop polishing the thing all day and go have some fun!
Edit: Let me point out one other thing, Pat. You say "These are just a few of the irreversible changes that will destroy collectability of the 914." That's not true. It may affect the collectability of THAT 914, but not 914's a whole. If anything someone taking a car out of the collector's market will increase the value of all remaining cars. Right? So I've done you a favor and increased the value of your car, meaning I deserve a little thanks, don't you think? A little 'keep up the good work'?
Edit #2: You're also assuming that a Subaru motor is an irreversible modification. It's not. The only metal removed from the car is to add the radiator, and putting that back to original is LESS work than typical 914 rust repair. Rust repair that will also diminish originality. My car could be put back to stock quite easily, but who wants that? That's crazy talk.
.
Posted by: J P Stein Apr 7 2012, 10:00 AM
The short version is that when they were new....all of em'....they were ugly & slow.
That is not nessarly my view but that of the market place.
Take a 70 Dodge Road Runner, clone a Hemi (or several other cars) and you may make a profit upon sale.
Take a 70 914/6, clone a GT and you'll get your wallet burnt.
This is the actual world beyond 914World.
Posted by: unpolire Apr 7 2012, 11:27 AM
Some good points Pat, but a argument could be made that 356 "Outlaws" are Collectable. I also see a market for 914-6 Conversions after the Economy comes back.
Oh my. I never knew what a "356 Outlaw" was until I searched after this post. http://outlawcoupe.truspeed.com/
The one in the link has a 914 motor! I have one of the last 356C built. Cannot imagine, with their rising value, why anyone would radically modify a real one. I thought those cars were all fiberglass clones!
I think there will always be a market for 914-6 conversions because they seem to be insanely fast! By the way, the only cars I have ever bought thinking ROI were last model year Cadillac convertibles. Cars that I went to lunch in during college are now $200K+! All of my other vehicles were passion purchases, or "saves," like the complete Alfa Spider I saw hooked on a tow truck heading for the scrap yard because it needed a fuel pump and the owner had no space to fix it! We are not all doctors in formed investment pools: I drive my cars!
Posted by: DBCooper Apr 7 2012, 11:52 AM
Politely, or with malice? All the cars, or just some?
If you drive hell for leather in the cars that were designed for that then kudos.
.
Posted by: ThePaintedMan Apr 7 2012, 02:39 PM
2. the 914 cars appeal mostly to a demographic that is gettin' on in age, and never had much moola to spend on hobby cars and still doesn't - if we'd had the money, we'd had a 911
While I agree that most guys my age think the car is ugly, it no doubt turns heads. After having the car running for little over a week, I have not gotten out of it to go to class without someone saying "cool car man!" A lot of kids these days prefer something *different* now that all cars are basically jelly-beans. I even went to the local car show on Thursday with the car basically in primer black and I think I got more attention than most of the hot-rods. Its quirky, its slow, but its different. It almost makes me want to keep it in primer - not too many rat-rod black Porsches around
Posted by: carr914 Apr 7 2012, 02:55 PM
George did you go to the Quaker Steak & Lube? I need to get back over there.
And Pat, you are wrong about the Demographics too. I can't tell you how many kids play Forza & other games that have a 914 that think they are cool. My son would love to have a 914-6 instead of his Honda, but he has no mechanical skills even though I gave him a Snap-On Box full of Tools
Posted by: unpolire Apr 7 2012, 03:09 PM
I have never made a dime on a brit car. My experience with them is the owners don't value them. I mean they seem to sell nice cars cheap because they have to or no one would buy them. I had a Cali rust free 59 MGA with a fresh interior, nice paint and trim and a fresh bored out 5 main engine. I had no interest when selling that car above
$ 8000.00. Sad.. Same with Beetles. I have one of the most solid 66 Bugs from Cali I have ever seen. I know the history. I painted the car for the P.O. 16 years ago. Tried to sell it, no interest at $ 6000.00. There are too many patch up rust buckets that look good on the surface selling cheap.
There is no money to be made restoring cars and selling them in this market. If your doing it, do it because you like to not as an investment. Just have fun with it. The market will come around in time.
The key is not selling them, period. Although E-type and DB5 owners have done very well. Only way collecting has worked for me is that I bought them at a great or fair price and have enjoyed owning and driving them for up to 25 years. Classic cars have outperformed the stock market, so I just lucked out on paper. Cars that I bought for $5K in the 1980's are now worth $60K+, and I have not done a thing. Most owners here are not selling and I bought my 914 out of a garage, where it had been parked for years, only when the PO was selling the house and needed the garage empty. To paraphrase Warren Buffet, the best time to sell ... is never!
Posted by: Dustin Apr 7 2012, 03:19 PM
The shorter the observer the better these cars look. From the right angles they look sweet. Most cars aren't worth looking at these days. Most great cars have bad some angles. They also look better with the tops off.
The top on the chopped featured car is hot. The camera is nearly on the ground too.
Posted by: Niche Mar 20 2013, 11:51 AM
As a new 914 owner, I found this thread interesting. Bumping it to see if any of you have seen any changes within the 914 market over the last year?
Posted by: rmital Mar 20 2013, 12:11 PM
As a new 914 owner, I found this thread interesting. Bumping it to see if any of you have seen any changes within the 914 market over the last year?
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=205535
Posted by: billh1963 Mar 20 2013, 12:22 PM
As a new 914 owner, I found this thread interesting. Bumping it to see if any of you have seen any changes within the 914 market over the last year?
There are changes...look at the link posted this morning:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=206455
Posted by: jhora Mar 20 2013, 01:36 PM
here you go....prices are up for nice ones
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Excellent-Condition-Low-Mileage-/140937376602?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item20d085b35a
Posted by: green914 Mar 20 2013, 02:31 PM
I go to a lot of the car shows in the Reno and Carson Valley area every year, and I find one thing that all the owners share when it comes to their cars - they spent far more $ on them than they could ever sell them for. My sons kid me that when I die they will bury me in my 914. Mines not for sale, so I guess the $ value is not important. I'm shopping for another 914 at this time, so I'm glad the prices are still low.
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