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Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 02:37 PM

You carbon fiber bigots out there are in denial, and living in the past. You call it "ricey", only because the manufacturers sell to the largest market, the ricers. But, you damn well know you'd opt for all the carbon fiber options you could get if you had the half mil. to spend on a Porsche Carrera GT. How can you call it "ricey", the whole damn dream car is full of carbon fiber. It happens to be a technological advancement, not some kind of fashion statement. Yeah, I think the stuff looks great. I'd love to get enough people together to convince rennspd.com to give me a good price on a pair of 916 bumpers, a pair of hoods, a rear wing, and to make molds for standard rocker panels, and a targa top. Maybe even some interior parts like dash top, bottom, face, doorpanels, center console, backpad. Stronger and lighter are two things you have to like. If you dont like the look, pad it or paint it. But, you can't look at a Porsche Carrera GT and make me believe you think it's "ricey". :finger2:

Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Sep 22 2004, 02:40 PM

dood - who is this aimed at? did i miss something?

Posted by: davidcalvin Sep 22 2004, 02:45 PM

Carbon fiber rocks. My racing bike is made of it. Its fast and its strong. Its a stiffer ride than my Ti Cinelli was.. but still totally worthwhile.

Who said it was ricey? What does ricey mean? Are you implying that asians invented carbon fiber?

.
.
.

The lure of Carbon Fiber components and structures is primarily due to their reduced weight, increased
tensile strength and deflection properties as compared to steel. Carbon fiber structures can be up to 75%
lighter than steel and 10 times as strong.
Brief Carbon Fiber History
The history of Carbon Fibers dates back to the end of the 19
th
century when Thomas Edison and Joseph Swan
invented a light bulb using carbon fiber obtained by carbonizing cotton and bamboo. This was the beginning
of the history of Carbon Fibers as we know them today.
Back around 1957 scientists invented carbon fibers from cotton and Rayon.
A few years later in 1961 carbon fibers were manufactured from polyacrylonitrile (PAN) in Osaka Japan
which was the beginning of “high performance” Carbon Fiber materials. It wasn’t until 1971 that small
amounts of PAN Carbon Fibers were being produced for sale to industry.
By 1973 the first Carbon Fiber fishing poles and golf club shafts were being developed. By the mid 1970’s
high performance Carbon Fiber yarns were being used in the aircraft industry. Many industries embraced the
invention of Carbon Fiber yarns and thus fiber/epoxy components. By the early 1990’s Carbon Fiber anilox
rolls were being experimented with.
Today Carbon Fibers anilox rolls made of carbon fibers and toughened epoxy resins are quite common.
Carbon fiber tubes are made up of millions of individual carbon fibers that are wound over a steel mandrel
while mixed with epoxy solutions which cure to form the finished Carbon Fiber tubing. The direction that the
fibers are wound along with the epoxy chemistry used is critical in producing the properly specified anilox
roll for a particular application. When one considers reduced weight, reduced cylinder bounce due to
deflection properties and increased harmonic resonant absorption properties, Carbon Fiber rolls become very
attractive. However, they come with a price and are not yet ready for all applications

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 02:46 PM

Not if you agree. But, I've found a lot of negative responses on the subject from other members.

Posted by: Demick Sep 22 2004, 02:58 PM

It's ricey when you use it just for looks and is serving no other real purpose.

It's ricey when it is slapped on in places it doesnt belong or doesn't match

It's ricey when it is used where another much cheaper material actually works far better.

It's ricey when it isn't even CF (just a sticker).

There are many great uses for CF. I don't think anyone thinks CF in and of itself is ricey in any way. Just the way some people use it.

Demick

Posted by: synthesisdv Sep 22 2004, 03:05 PM

I made my door panel from CF, my first CF project. Was easy cuz its just a flat piece. I have other composite projects planned but right now I need to get this lump running again. I like mixing modern materials and technology with old cars or buildings, the juxtapostion brings out the best in both.

Not sure why you care what some others may think of your ideas. Just carry your own flag and I'm sure the likeminded members will find you.


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Posted by: nebreitling Sep 22 2004, 03:07 PM

welcome to the f-ing board, bob!

:finger2: :finger2: :finger2:


i have a feeling you'll fit right in, as contentious as you come off.

nathan

(has a carbon fiber shift knob in his 914)

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 03:09 PM

So, you don't think it has any astetic value? I like the look. You're entitled to your opinion. The fact is, it's still lighter and stronger. So, there really isn't any application that could be considered "just for looks".

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 22 2004, 03:14 PM

well, if you like the "ricer look" ...

says he who has a CF 911 dash in his 914 ...
Andy

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 03:15 PM

Yeah, I'm just trying to rattle the cage, and beat the bushes. The only reason these parts aren't available at a reasonable price is because of the limited demand. If enough of us get together on this, we can create the demand.

Posted by: Jeroen Sep 22 2004, 03:17 PM

I don't think anyone here ever said anything bad about CF bodyparts (not as far as I can remember)
Actually, pretty much all places that make glass fiber parts can whip out the same parts in CF (at a premium price), no need for special molds...
Those parts are made in the same way as glass fiber parts though, and therefore are not much lighter or stronger...

So per definition, they are "rice". Not that I care... I think it looks cool

Still, it is in no way comparable to the CF frames of the Carrera GT or a bike or F1 parts etc.
Those are indeed stronger/lighter, but they are also manufactured completely different (bring mega $$$)

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 03:21 PM

Seen it. Beats cracked vinyl. I also like the looks of the stitched leather dashes. Some things are timeless. At $250, not much difference in price, but it probably weighes about half as much.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 03:24 PM

If made properly, (vacuum bagged) they are considerably stronger and lighter.

Posted by: Joe Ricard Sep 22 2004, 03:33 PM

I think I need CF dots on my doors and hood vs the white vinyl ones.

Damn Bob you sure can stir up the dander around here. have oa couple of these on me. And I'll have one too.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 03:42 PM

I just tried to, after looking at the more successfull threads, get as much participation as possible. Seems you have to be confrontational to get a large amount of views around here. Thanks, I will down one right now.

Posted by: anthony Sep 22 2004, 03:50 PM

For my dream 914 I've actually been thinking about a black 914-6, 3.2L engine, GT flares, carbon fiber front and rear hoods clear coated rather than painted.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 03:55 PM

I'd go for a 3.6 twin turbo. But, that's just me.

Posted by: Andy Sep 22 2004, 04:34 PM

You've given me the courage to cover my car in carbon fiber, and to put on the neon lights and then I'll go cruising and pick up high-school girls!





Yes, yes, I'm an ass, or so people keep telling me.

Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 04:36 PM

Huh?


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Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 04:36 PM

914


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Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 04:37 PM

914


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Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 04:38 PM

914


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Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 04:38 PM

914


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Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 04:39 PM

914


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Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 04:39 PM

914


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Posted by: SpecialK Sep 22 2004, 04:39 PM

Oh yeah!....A CF "fart can"!


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Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Sep 22 2004, 04:45 PM

siverson - wow, on that first shot the teener front boot looked see-through! thought i was looking at a partially cloaked 914...

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 04:46 PM

Looks sweet. Is that done with one layer carbon fiber, and the rest glass. Where from, how much?

Posted by: SpecialK Sep 22 2004, 04:47 PM

Actually, I'm doing the targa top in CF for purely aesthetic reasons...stuff looks kewl in the sunlight! Two layers 'will' have the added benefit of stiffening the roof so it stops pulsing from the air currents. If the roof turns out like I hope, I might do the sail panels and roll bar top (instead of vinyl) to match (definitely aesthetic). I think it'd look good surrounded by all of the chrome trim. .....yeah...and the rocker panels too...oops, forgot about the duck tail spoiler!

Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 05:09 PM

> Carrera GT

Sorry, there is a huge difference between how CF was used on the CGT and how most "ricers" use it.

> Looks sweet. Is that done with one layer carbon fiber, and the rest glass. Where from, how much?

It's all carbon fiber, done by GT Racing. Do you really care how much they were, because I'm sure you think they should be half that price? In most cases, you get what you pay for, and 914 folks never seem to quite get that, and that's why vendors don't cater towards the 914 market.

-Steve

(p.s. They were about $650 per lid. http://www.gt-racing.com/catalog/gtr914.htm)

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 05:14 PM

Wait, are we talking about the material? or the paint job. I saw a subaru with a carbon fiber trunk lid and an 8 ft spoiler. That is rice.

If you're getting cf panels, you better not have a stereo, air conditioner, an AUTO trans, or 4 matching race seats.

And for carbon fiber shift knobs... even the CGT uses a beachwood shift knob.

I think its universally known that carbon fiber is lighter and stronger in the right places, but ive seen some of the stupidist shit in carbon fiber.

The CF doesnt make a rice rocket, but it sure as hell makes it look worse.

Posted by: Demick Sep 22 2004, 05:18 PM

Well said Matt

Posted by: bernbomb914 Sep 22 2004, 05:35 PM

let me know if you do a targa top in CF. I would like a layer of Kevilar in it to make it stronger or is this nessary with new methods.

Bernie

Posted by: retrotech Sep 22 2004, 05:36 PM

Can anyone give an acurate weight difference between CF hood or trunk, compared to FG?

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 05:42 PM

Yeah, seen it. My only gripe with them is they charge $663 in carbon fiber, and $463 in fiberglass. Rennspeed charges $250 for their fiberglass versions, looks to be the same quality. The way I see it they should be able to offer a carbon fiber version for around $450, everything being equal. A $200 dollar difference would make a big difference to me.

Posted by: nebreitling Sep 22 2004, 05:48 PM

spoken like a true 914 owner

Posted by: spare time toys Sep 22 2004, 05:51 PM

We got some C/F just for reinforecment,not rice


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Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 05:59 PM

You might not see a whole lot of weight savings, but you could probably stand on it without it collapsing. A lot more strength, less flex, more durable. About 12 pounds instead of steel at about 40. I'm sure you wouldn't stand on it, but a steel hood will definitely dent if you do.

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 06:07 PM

This thread about carbon fiber has me thinking about drifter jay. What happened to him? He would be wailing on this thread saying CF makes cars fast and furious...

Posted by: vortrex Sep 22 2004, 06:16 PM

I don't see what the big deal is. if you like the look get it whether it is functional or not. all this talk of "you need to have this car for carbon fiber" is just plain stupid. yeah, I bet the avg 914 owner sputtering around leaving a trail of rust is going to call a 993 (4 seater, AC, stereo, etc) or equivalent car "ricey" with the CF package.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 06:27 PM

Sure, but wouldn't it be nice instead of having to go through the trouble of welding in new longitudinals, to epoxy carbon fiber longitudinals in that would weigh less, be stiffer, and NEVER rust? Or maybe just replace your rusty trunk panel?

Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 06:35 PM

>> My only gripe with them is they charge $663 in carbon fiber, and $463 in fiberglass. Rennspeed charges $250 for their fiberglass versions, looks to be the same quality. The way I see it they should be able to offer a carbon fiber version for around $450, everything being equal. A $200 dollar difference would make a big difference to me.

> spoken like a true 914 owner



Right, since they are both "914 shaped", both fiberglass, and their grainy PDF photos look the same, they must be the same thing. You usually get what you pay for.

You have a gripe with the price?!?! I would have never guessed.

-Steve

Posted by: Jeroen Sep 22 2004, 06:36 PM

Like I mentioned before, you can't use lay-up CF for anything structural
Nor can you "just epoxy" it together
It would also be a huge PITA if you ever got in a collision

Whadda ya think happens if a Carrera GT gets a good bang and the frame is cracked???
Whip out your wallet for a new frame, 'cause it's impossible to fix

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 06:36 PM

Kevlar is supposed to make it stronger. But is mostly used to keep it in one piece when failure does occur. They add the flexable strength of kevlar to avoid having the stiff carbon fibers from shattering. Best of both worlds, so to speak. Desirable for things like engine shrouds and door panels, where you wouldn't want pieces flying around from an impact. At least that's how I've heard it explained.

Posted by: nebreitling Sep 22 2004, 06:44 PM

do it. make a 914 cf frame for us.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 06:44 PM

There IS a lot of ridiculous carbon fiber usages. A targa top would be a great usage. You could have a stronger, stiffer, lighter roof. And, since it is so high on the vehicle, it would have a greater center of gravity benifit compared to, say, a set of rocker panels that sit below the car. Plus the fact it would be easier to take on and off.

Posted by: nebreitling Sep 22 2004, 06:46 PM

i want a cf windshield, and carpet. and some cf seatbelts. and tires, too.

Posted by: siverson Sep 22 2004, 06:54 PM

> do it. make a 914 cf frame for us.

And I want it at half the price of whatever you're asking.

(I can't believe I'm still participating in this thread.)

-Steve

Posted by: SpecialK Sep 22 2004, 07:21 PM

Sorry Jeroen, but that is how they do it. The plys are "clocked" on a 45 degree bias from the adjacent layers, and the strength requirements of the part determines the number of layers. If there are extreme tension and compression loads in a structure, they throw some unidirectional plys in the mix for added strength and stiffness. An AV8B Harrier (hovering jet...cool) wing is entirely made of carbon graphite, including the internal structrural supports. The only exception is the fitting where the outrigger wheels mount, and the flaps and ailerons attach.

Amazing stuff carbon graphite. Light, stiff as hell, and a real bitch to drill unless you have carbide spade drills. It'll dull a regular drill bit in nothing flat.

Posted by: Britain Smith Sep 22 2004, 07:43 PM

Hey Nathan...they do have Carbon Fiber rims now.

-Britain

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 07:48 PM

Wrong! Structural damage to a Carrera GT would be a lot easier to fix than a metal frame. First of all it wouldn't bend like a metal frame would, no straightening which would fatigue the metal. Second, if the frame had failures they would occur at the weakest points. It would just be a matter of cutting out the damaged area and bonding in a replacement. Also, if you formed something like a carbon fiber flare you could mold the attatchment lip downward, instead of outward like fiberglass and metal flares, mark your position, cut away the excess metal, then epoxy and pop-rivit the flare into place. No visible joint, just a seam. The biggest problem with fiberglass is that it flexes, causing the paint to flake off over time. A carbon fiber flare would be easier to repair than a metal one, but is stiff enough to hold a paint job, adds more to the stuctural stiffness than fiberglass, and weighs a lot less than metal.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 07:59 PM

Who wouldn't. The only way these things ever get cheaper is when more people express a desire to purchase them. If they were selling 50 a year instead of 5 you know the price would go down. If you go to a manufacturer and tell them you want to have them make a special order of 1 unit, it would of course be more than if you told him you wanted 10.

Posted by: Jeroen Sep 22 2004, 08:27 PM

Yeah, I know... what I meant is that you can't just lay it up like you would with f/g
It's not just a matter of mixing up some resin and brush it over a couple of layers of CF

The frames/monocoques of a Carrera GT or F1 car or ... are cured in an autoclave
Big f-ing expensive expensive tooling and equipment.

And you CAN'T fix a structure like that by just patching it up (like a f/g bodypanel)
If a F1 car crashes and the monocoque is damaged, it's a write off...

But what do I know... go a head, buy a couple of yards of CF and a couple of gallons of resin and build a 914 tub
How hard can it be

Posted by: Jeroen Sep 22 2004, 08:37 PM

Man... you have no idea what you blurting 'bout
You're hilarious

Posted by: neo914-6 Sep 22 2004, 08:37 PM

Just saw a "Rides" episode on Lamborghini. Do you know what their latest bodies are made almost entirely of? Their competition the Enzo is also built of CF. These of course are half million dollar cars and the methods and tools (autoclave) are not like your average fiberglass layup methods. I believe there will come a time when it will be easier to produce and lower the costs...

Poor aesthetics is SEPARATE to age, country, or economic status. I've seen an "ugly" version of almost EVERY car.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 08:39 PM

Yes, that's how it's done. Then it's sealed in a plastic bag, put under a vacuum to both fully impregnate the fabric, and squeeze out excess resin , and kept at temperature for a slow cure. Autoclave? That's used for steam sterilization of medical instuments. It's more like heat lamps, or in the case of a large item, like the Carrera GT a paint drying room. You know, the one Earl Schieb used on your car.

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 08:42 PM

If you simply cut out the bad section of the chassis and "patch in" a new piece of cf, you're going to have a weak spot where the two ends meet. Think about it structuraly. When you weld a piece of metal, you make two pieces of metal one by literally melting the metal together. However you cant "bond" carbon sheets to eachother, your only using the resin to bond from carbon to carbon.

In an area with little or no structural integrity (like a shift knob ) you can make bonded cf look okay, but when you're talking about the chassis of a cgt, they utilize every ounce of carbon fiber on that chassis, and messing with that would dimish the stiffness.

And carbon fiber is expensive because of the materials cost. I know from experience. The costs dont go down that much if you bulk order something. You're not going to get a $500 dollar hood for $100 because you order a bunch of them... manufacturoring and materials cost a lot.

Hey bob, you act like you're an authority on carbon fiber. How do you know so much about this stuff?

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 22 2004, 09:08 PM

Hey Bob,

I wouldn't mess with Jeroen if I were you. Your looking for an ass wippin! Your entering into a contest you won't win. Jeroen is one of the most intellegent people I've met. Specially when it comes to all things Porsche. He's wrecked nicer stuff than you'll ever own. BTW: Carbon used as an appearence add on is rice! Carbon used like the photos shown here lend a useful purpose. If it lends no real benifit other than it looks cool to YOU it's rice. put it on your Honda doood Duh!

Posted by: morphenspectra Sep 22 2004, 09:12 PM

bieng a cetified composites specialist.im getting alot of laughs out of some peoples ideas about carbon fiber.
a lot of parts on the market made of carbon fiber for cars are really for looks."parts i said " not cars.
from the seats at mcdonalds to helicopter blades.i have built the molds and designed the product.cf is great stuff if used correctly.oh btw you cant "patch" carbon fiber items and retain the strength.you have weakend the structure or "matrix" of the item.
and i am a expert in composites

Posted by: jkeyzer Sep 22 2004, 09:18 PM

CF will stop being rice when someone has the guts to paint over it and not leave the CF pattern showing.

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 09:25 PM

[quote=bob91403,Sep 22 2004, 06:39 PM] [QUOTE=Jeroen,Sep 22 2004, 06:27 PM] Autoclave? That's used for steam sterilization of medical instuments. It's more like heat lamps, or in the case of a large item, like the Carrera GT a paint drying room. You know, the one Earl Schieb used on your car. [/quote]
Hmm, I think our resident douchebag doesnt know what an autoclave is. Now you're getting personal. I reccomend you get another user name and dont be such an expert.

I even did a google search for you, buddy.

http://www.usafa.af.mil/dfem/facilities/myweb/auto_clave.htm

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 09:26 PM

I know that an "autoclave" is just a pressurised oven. And yes, it is joined that way. What, you think some magical elves weave these things on a spinning wheel? The parts are hand laid into molds, or wrapped around foam, the same way fiberglass is. The parts are bonded with either cast joints or wrapped with cross oriented layers, the same way fiberglass is. The only difference is the parts need to be cured under pressure, either in an "autoclave" or vacuum bag, and cured at temperature. It's not that complicated. It doesn't take a lot of pressue or temperature. The equipment is not that expensive to buy. I'm sure you'd be suprised, if you look in to it. I bet even you'd find it affordable. Anyone who wants to start producing a product would find out I'm right. And, who the hell said anything about a $500 part for a $100? Don't go making up things I never said. I said, if one company can do carbon fiber instead of fiberglass for a $200 difference. Then, another company with the same molds should be able to do carbon fiber, instead of fiberglass for the same $200 difference. $450 instead of $650. "If you wish to avoid looking ignorant, it is best to remain quiet, rather than opening your mouth and removing all doubt".

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 22 2004, 09:33 PM

dude, you're obviously confusing "Carbon Fiber" with "Carbon Fiber" ...

Andy

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 09:36 PM

are you for real?

Are you a CGT tech? Have you seen an autoclave? Because where I work, there are two. I know how much one costs. I know what they do.

I cant believe you're saying this after every says you're wrong. Just admit defeat.

Im sure porsche uses plastic bags and shop vacs to make their $450g supercar...

All I was saying with the price thing is that you're overestimating buying in bulk. It doesnt save that much because cf is so damn expensive. Honduh hoods are still friggen expensive.

So, what year is your 914? Lets see pics. I want to see what a self proclaimed CGT expert drives to work.

Posted by: nebreitling Sep 22 2004, 09:40 PM

i'm lmfao here.... it's too good -- stop! stop!

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 09:44 PM

Yes, but, if the item is made in parts, that are joined. You only have to replace the section that is damaged. Obviously a "monocoque" frame is only one piece so yes, if damaged it must be replaced. As far as patching, it can be patched, and yes, it won't have the structural strength it used to. But for example a crack in a fender flare could be patched and repainted easier than a dented fender. I don't know where someone got the idea that I, at any time, suggested somebody make a carbon fiber frame for a 914. I never did. I only pointed out the advantages of the material. And, that if there was a greater demand, pricing would be lower. I am somewhat knowlegable regarding composite materials and their methods of production. I never said I was an expert. Ask me something about photography. Now that I'm an expert at.

Posted by: Aaron Cox Sep 22 2004, 09:48 PM

omg..lmao

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 09:51 PM

...obviously not.

I think you need to put down the and sleep it off. Tomorrow morning come in, read your posts, and edit your posts so we all look like dumbasses arguing about the same thing.

Okay, I dont think anybody argued if you have two seperate pieces of carbon fiber that are joined by epoxy, and somehow one piece falls off, you cant rejoin it. Is there a "foot in your mouth" simley?

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 22 2004, 09:52 PM

this is just like ceramics, you can make a clay pot out of it or ceramic lifters for a high quality engine, both are ceramics, but they're lightyears apart in terms of production.

the CF you see for a fender flare or a hood is not to be mistaken with the CF used for components like auto/bike/airplane frames and such.

two completely different beasts ...
Andy

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 10:08 PM

You don't need an autoclave to make carbon fiber parts. And no, it's not just a plastic bag and a shop vac. I don't know why you morons continue to misquote me and make shit up that I never said. The plastic bags are specialized material, the vacuum pump, for someone who wants to make small parts, starts at about $300 bucks. For a manufacturer who already has the equipment, production cost difference for one material compared to another companys material costs should be about the same. I drive a '73 Olympic blue 2.0 . I'll post a picture after I've taken one. I don't carry one in my wallet like you do.

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 10:19 PM

misquote? I wouldnt do such a thing.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 22 2004, 10:25 PM

i think what they are trying to tell you is that your reference to "strength" as a reason for home-made CF parts such as fenders and hoods is misleading ...

the superior strength of CF parts used for car/bike/airplane frames is mostly due to the completely different production procedures used.
jeroen was referring to just that when he said you don't just lay up CF cloth with resin to make a CF-Car-sub-frame.

i would not buy a CF hood for my car thinking it'll give the car more strength ...
Andy

Posted by: Kevin@ojai.net Sep 22 2004, 10:44 PM

I don't know, CF stuff can be pretty damn strong... If designed and built correctly...

Posted by: Mueller Sep 22 2004, 10:46 PM

actually, the CGT parts that are put in the autoclave are put into aluminum foil bags for curing


the reason for the cost difference between a CF bumper and regular 'glass bumper is really for the material and the extra labor involved......CF is harder to work with, it takes more care while handleing and laying out to keep it "looking correct".....

since most fiberglass going to be painted, who cares what direction the fibers go, with CF, it's a huge factory
(it does not have to be, but since the chances the person will want to leave it exposed, more care must be taken)


just a quick cost comparison:

CF matting (real stuff, not cosmetic CF) is about $2.50 per sq ft

fiberglass is about .25 cents per sq ft

i think the reason a lot of people think CF is joke is just like Demick mentioned, it being put places or used for the "wrong" purpose.......but if you really think about it, how many of us have spent money on "useless" wood cosmetics for our cars interior or fell in love with the birdseye maple in a jag or mecedes (now it's plastic looking wood )

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 10:47 PM

The strength is from both pressure and temperature during curing. Yes, for complex shapes such as car frames an autoclave becomes neccesary. But for simple shapes such as a targa top, flares, hoods (they make those in two pieces, top and bottom), anything that can be bagged and have a full surface vacuum pulled on it, can be cured to a similar strength. I know a guy who made one of the first "monocoque" bicycle frames with vaccum bagging. He made a right and left hand mold from plaster of paris. He hand laid the carbon fiber into the molds, and then vacuum bagged the whole thing. He used a space heater for curing. After separating the two sides, he epoxied them together, then added a metal rear triagle. Not truly "monocoque", but quite strong. Just what magical "completely different production procedures" are you refering to?

Posted by: Mueller Sep 22 2004, 10:48 PM

has anyone made a CF casket yet???

Posted by: rick 918-S Sep 22 2004, 10:53 PM

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 11:02 PM

You;

And your contradiction;


Again, you;

And your contradiction



Go home.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 11:02 PM

What I said was, "If one company makes a part in fiberglass or carbon fiber, for a difference of $200. And, another company offers the same part in fiberglass, and does carbon fiber parts as well, they should be able to do the same part in carbon fiber for the same $200 difference. Understand? Your price on carbon fiber material is pretty accurate. How about $1.50/sq. ft. Check out ebay item #2490813121. Granted thats just the starting price, but it looks like a pretty good deal to me.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 11:08 PM

Hey, I don't mind telling you I'm no expert on the subject. I'm just discussing the topic based on what I know. I don't know why everyone wants to go off on a different tangent. Go back to the original posting, maybe you'll see you're way off topic.

Posted by: Kevin@ojai.net Sep 22 2004, 11:21 PM

Does this count?

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 11:26 PM

The topic started with you coming out from left field and telling everyone they're stupid and have no taste. Tangent? We're talking about classy sports cars on this board (and beer), and you bring up rice rockets. And I think carbon fiber is detestable. I think the carbon accents on the cgt interior are without taste. But thats me. Porsche has a much better reputation, and has made a helluva lot more money then me, so I think they're right. You are pissed at the world for some unknown reason and to take it out, you get a car for purists, join a forum, and bash their stereotypes. If you cared to look at the people on this board, you'll find a lot of really diverse people on here that come from all backgrounds with different tastes. But unfortunatly you have your opinions about who we are, and frankly, you can go to hell if you dont like us.

Posted by: Mueller Sep 22 2004, 11:33 PM

from the few ads I've seen for compainies selling the same item (bumper, hoods etc...), the price difference is about $200 more for the CF part........I'm guessing the companies you've seen with a higher differential just think/know they can charge more and get away with it

this comes down to "pleasing" the customer.....when spending that kind of money, little cosmetic items mean a lot to some people..they might feel they are getting their monies worth if the cup holder is made from CF instead of plastic/aluminum

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 11:36 PM

Who's getting personal? I never said "shop vac", yes I simplified when I said "plastic bag", but it is essentially just that. An autoclave is a pressurized oven. Most commonly used, with steam to produce the pressure, to sterilize medical instruments. Look it up. There is more than one kind. And again, you don't need an autoclave to make carbon fiber parts. Misquote me, no you'd never do that. You have and you have taken things out of context. Glad you know so much about it. It's been quite informative discussing it with you. Lighten up, go back to the beginning of the thread, and please forgive any misconceptions I might have had.

Posted by: SirAndy Sep 22 2004, 11:40 PM

like, they didn't use a to make the Carrera GT frame ...

Andy

Posted by: davidcalvin Sep 22 2004, 11:42 PM

I would say that by using the term "bigot" you were getting personal. That's a pretty personal statement and accusation to make.

On the topic of beer... I am drinking a gooser from Austria right now and, boy oh boy is it goin down goooood.

Carbon bifer? Wassss that anyways?

Posted by: MattR Sep 22 2004, 11:54 PM

No beer for me. I cant get drunk when Im pissed, or I break stuff. lol.

So, you come on a forum as a newb, call us bigots, tell us we have no taste and dont know anything, and argue with us saying you know better until page 4, then you have a change of heart and are trying to be a nice guy now. And, these are not misconceptions, they are contradictions. With a misconception, you admit to being wrong. With these claims, you simply changed them as the conversation went on to make yourself sound less stupid.

And douchebag is a medical term

This gives me a headache. Or was that the rolling rock from last night

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 22 2004, 11:54 PM

Hey, chill dude. I read some previous threads on the subject, and found a lot of negative crap about the material. My intent was never to insult anyone. I do respect your opinion. I'm sure you would have no problem with a functional, reasonably priced, carbon fiber part. You'd just paint it. I have only observed others getting a lot of attention to their postings by being confrontational. Sorry if the actions of others have mislead me. I apologise if I hurt your feelings. I certainly don't think there could be a 914 owner that I would consider anything but intelligent or tastefull. They chose the best damn car a hard earned dollar could buy. I hope you get yours off the blocks soon. I'm sure you'll smile a lot more when you get your first taste. Mine has been down with a slipping clutch for a couple of months now. Should be back up after Christmas when I can afford the parts. By the way, what's up with your car?

Posted by: davidcalvin Sep 23 2004, 12:00 AM

I dunno about his car. But mine is in the shop because its got an oil leak in the "oil cooler" the size of a mount-rushmore nostril. Its gaping. Its wide. And its leaking oil like a strainer without the strainer.

so I can drive my new wonder-toy until Monday. Please, you can all join me in my grief. I love that little thing and I have only had it a few days.

Posted by: MattR Sep 23 2004, 12:12 AM

word... olive branch...

alright, i'll bite because i like talking about my car.

rebuilt my engine (2056cc, cam, heads), 911 suspension and 5 lug conversion, and school.

I'd say my biggest beef with carbon fiber in MOST applications is the functionality of it. I know race cars need every oz of stiffness they can get and can always shed weight, but for anything but a PURE race car, its all for looks or bragging rights. Honestly, you could shed more weight if you took out your stereo, carpet, sound deadening, retractable seatbelts, glass, hinges, and various other things. Now, unfortunatly carbon fiber is a symbol (ricers) if not used properly, and what it stands for pisses me off.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 23 2004, 12:20 AM

What, did the guy who sold it to you do, put a cork in it. Sounds like a pre-existing condition. I paid a little too much for my olympic blue '73 2.0, considering all the work I had to have done, but, I had the money back then. It was sitting in a garage for thirteen years when I bought it. New shocks, spring, rotors, pads, 19mm mastercylinder, SS brake lines, rear trunk mounts, battery tray, of course, fuel lines , muffler, tires, electronic ignition, several annoying little electical failures, now a new clutch, interior pretty good, needs a paint job. On the good side the compression test showed it was well maintained, 130,000 miles and the engine tested like new. Clutch and paint, and it will be concours ready. I really don't think I'll bastardize it with carbon fiber parts. I just wanted to see how others felt about the material, and why? What's yours like.

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 23 2004, 12:27 AM

I dig. But, again what's up with your ride? I'm in the S.F. Valley, and am driving a crappy Volkswagon Fox 'til I have the money to get my clutch parts. Irvine ain't that far, if you need an extra pair of hands dude. Let me know, I'll bring a sixer. School?

Posted by: MattR Sep 23 2004, 12:41 AM

Thanks for the offer. Its cool to see that even though we have differing opinions and have squabbled online you're still willing to lend a hand. I guess its kind of the brotherhood of 914 owners.

I actually live in Pasadena, but go to school at UC Irvine (mechanical engineering). Im hoping to finish it up this weekend if I get home. I need to just bolt up the front suspension (now that I finially have wheels and tires), and take care of a few things left on the engine and bolt it in. Now Im waiting for carbs, but once I get those I will hopefull be able to fire it up. After its tuned Im going to take the engine back out and repaint dark seal gray and maybe do some interior work. Im hoping to have a finished 914 by christmas *fingers crossed*.

Sixer?

Posted by: bob91403 Sep 23 2004, 12:53 AM

Mechanical engineering? Props to you! Sixer, ya know, beer. Seal gray, nice choice. What year? And, what made you decide to switch to five lug? What springs did you go with? My top rated porsche mechanic suggested 140lb. springs, when I told him to put in 165lb. progressive, he just smiled and said good choice. It's a little harder on your ass on a bumpy road, but man is it tight! Like sitting on a skateboard.

Posted by: Lawrence Sep 23 2004, 04:43 AM

Your first comment is your most compelling... but I'd like to add one. (though I'm not done wading through this thread)

CF is ricey when it's used in an application that, during impact, will splinter and cause potential injury to a driver or passenger.

-Rusty

Posted by: Lawrence Sep 23 2004, 04:55 AM

I did a google search... but I can't read ricer.

-Rusty

Posted by: SteveSr Sep 23 2004, 05:16 AM

Before there was CF there was FIBERGLASS!! and no one thought it was ricey! Hell,ricey wasn't even a term back then! I say there is nothing wrong with saving weight!!!

SteveSr

Posted by: Mark Henry Sep 23 2004, 07:11 AM

The CF look is OK, but it doesn't give me major wood. Maybe your buddies will wack off all over your CF parts...but the chicks could care less.

Although I want my ride to look good, I'd rather put my coin in the car than on it.


BTW fixing CF is not easy...or cheap. There is a CGT over on 6speeed.com that has a minor pop on the rear end...if you call something like $160,000. worth minor!

Posted by: Lawrence Oct 8 2004, 09:10 PM

I can't even imagine that kind of repair costs.

Well.. unless it was a tank or something.

-Rusty

Posted by: bernbomb914 Oct 8 2004, 11:50 PM

I would still like a CF targa top that I could paint YELLOW so it would be easier to take off and store. there is nothing ricer about that, just better fuction I dont understand why there is such a heated argument about carbon fiber. or is it some people trying to impress us with there expertize?

Bernie