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Posted by: chunger Nov 18 2004, 03:31 AM

Hello,

Christmas is around the corner, and I was wondering if you guys could point me to a good entry level helmet I could ask for for Christmas and possibly a good vendor to buy from.

-'Chung

Posted by: ChrisReale Nov 18 2004, 03:34 AM

For AX, just go to a motorcycle shop and get a snell 2000 rated helmet. If you are doing track stuff, I would spend more money and get a proper road racing Bell or Simpson.
http://www.ogracing.com

Posted by: synthesisdv Nov 18 2004, 06:49 AM

Do you have a "budget" head? Spend some $$ and get a good SA rated helmet that fits right. Stick with the big names. Also, some brands fit different peoples heads better, so find out if you have a simpson head or a bell head, etc.

If you get a MA rated helmet it will be fine for AX but if you ever want to venture onto the track, you'll have to buy another helmet that is SA rated, that wouldn't be too cost effective.

Posted by: mudfoot76 Nov 18 2004, 07:16 AM

A helmet is too important to go cheap on. Get one with an SA2000 rating (it will be good for 10 years!) that fits you right. Go to a shop and try the different ones on. Open face? Closed face? Do you plan to wear a balaclava underneath? I wasn't aware that AX allowed M-rated helmets, but if you ever plan on running in DE, they all require the SA rating.

Posted by: Part Pricer Nov 18 2004, 07:39 AM

If you don't need one right away, I would personally wait until the Snell 2005 rated helmets hit the market. That would give you a 10 year life span as most organizations allow current + 1 prior for helmets (meaning... next year you may need to have either a 2000 or 2005 rated helmet).

One other thing to be concerned with when looking at helmets is that the SCCA is looking at restircting the use of full-face helmets in airbag-equipped vehicles. So, if you think that you may be in an airbag-equipped car in an event in the next ten years, you may want to wait until the SCCA releases their more restrictive language.

http://www.scca.com/_Filelibrary/File/AirbagAdvisory.pdf

Posted by: ArtechnikA Nov 18 2004, 07:56 AM

what i've heard (and someone please point me to a definitive source if i am wrong...) is that Snell releases its certifications on a 5-year period, and that they do so near the end (or beginning) of the Snell Memorial Foundation fiscal year - which is near the end of the calendar year. IOW - the Snell 2005 Standards will be published late in 2005 and new helmets with the 2005 certification will start reaching the market in mid-2006.

this is consistent with my own experience trying to buy a conforming SA helmet. even as late as May 2000 there were no SA2000 helmets to be had from any source. i have a SA1995 as a result...

oh well - it'll be a good base for airbrush design exercises when it's obsolete...

BTW - i got a G-Force forced-air SA-2000 for Joy and the price was quite reasonable. although there is the additional hassle factor with forced-air ventilation, i really recommend it for a closed car in the sunbelt if it's at all workable for you. if my SA95 gets rendered obsolete before the SA05's are available (something the sanctioning bodies say they won't do, but...) i'll probably get a G-Force for myself as well.

and remember as always - the Snell certifications are minimum standards, and helmets are graded Pass/Fail only. so - there MAY still be quality differentiations even among the rated helmets. i've read the standards (the link to the Snell site was posted here the last time we had a helmet thread...) and i am satisfied with a minimum-standard-conforming SA helmet. i track a 911 with a Targa bar *and* a cross-braced roll bar ...

and despite its slight additional cost, i think the SA-rating is worth having *especially* in a closed car - FIRE BAD!

Posted by: Qarl Nov 18 2004, 08:14 AM

Don't skimp.

Would you buy budget seat belts, or budget rebuilt calipers on a racer car?

Try some on first, buy on fit and safety vs price.

Posted by: VegasRacer Nov 18 2004, 09:44 AM

All of the previous posters have given good information. I have checked with several suppliers and it will be another year before the SA2005's are available.

There are some good deals on-line, but you gotta try one on to see how it fits. http://www.helmetcity.com/page/HC/CTGY/autosnellsa in Oakland sells most of the popular brands. They might be a good place to start shopping.

Posted by: dwillouby Nov 18 2004, 09:50 AM

I have told people" If you have a 10 dollar head buy a 10 dollar helmet".
My brother took my advice. He later crashed his dragbike at over 100 mph at about 1/2 track. He slid through the lights at 60mph. Helmet (and leathers) saved his life.
Buy the best you can afford.
David

Posted by: boxerboy Nov 18 2004, 01:18 PM

Ok, I'm going to show my age here, but when the first wave of Jap bikes hit the USA back in the 60's and really cheap helmets appeared all over, I remember a Bell helmet ad in one of the bike mags that said "If you've got a $5 head... buy a $5 helmet... if not, buy a Bell.

The prices may be different today, but the sentiment is still spot on.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Nov 18 2004, 01:34 PM

part of the problem (and confusion) is that there are far more options available now.
and there are "super-premium" products available.

we also tell people "buy the lightest helmet you can afford."

(all this is in the context of a helmet that meets the sanctioning body's requirements, of course...)

other things being equal, among Snell-SA-rated helmets, carbon fiber will be lighter than Kevlar which will be lighter than fiberglass, and that's pretty much how the prices run, too. the "pro-level" stuff, suitable for Indy cars pulling 3+ lateral g's in the corners plus whatever the banking adds, will be light - and expensive. (pros have sponsors, contingency money, and endorsement contracts...) Kevlar is probably the lightest consumer-grade helmet most of us can afford. if you can afford a top-of-the-line Simpson in carbon fiber, great !

but most of us have to consider the full package, and a top-of-the-line CF Simpson is right around $1000. if an equivalently rated Kevlar helmet is a few ounces heavier and $500 less, i can think about replacing my belts every year instead of every three, for instance ...

Posted by: chunger Nov 18 2004, 01:44 PM

Thanks for the replies... . I should go check out helmet city in oakland so I can become a helmet head.

I figured there are a wide variety of things involved in helmets that determine price and may or may not effect strength/fit. For instance, you can use really expensive processes and materials to make a helmet very light w/ same strength at mabe double the price, but I won't need that

Or stuck it in a 5,000,000 wind tunnel to shave .02 off drag coeficient on an open racer. . . just want to know what to look for.

So, seems the concensus is stick w/ major brand. . . Bell, Simpson. . . get fire rated one, and get the one that fits best.

-'Chung

Posted by: chunger Nov 18 2004, 01:49 PM

I won't enter into the debate about what dollar value to put on my head I have lots of surgeon cousins, and they tell me all the time how many head trauma people they see because they become organ donors. . . so I wear a good helmet when snowboarding, riding a bike, and certainly will invest in a suitable car helmet

mabe I should have posted this as a poll question:

How much do you think 'Chung's head is worth?

-'Chung

Posted by: ArtechnikA Nov 18 2004, 02:05 PM

guess it'd depend on if you were a tissue match or not :-) ...

Posted by: Sammy Nov 18 2004, 03:36 PM

Caution, another urban myth ready to be challenged!

Spending a whole bunch of money on a big name brand is.... well it is expensive.
You can get just as much quality and protection with a G-force SA2000 helmet and save some money for something else.
If the helmet is for automobile use, get an SA2000, if it is strictly for motorcycle use, get an M2000. That's what they are made for and are not identical in design or construction.
SA2000 uses kevlar weave and nomex lining and is designed to protect against multiple impacts and also fire.

No one, and I mean no one, will ever be able to convince me that a Bell or Simpson will protect my knoggin any better than an identically rated G-force. For all I know they could be made in the same factory.
The only reason to buy a more expensive helmet is if the more expensive one fits your haid better. You really should try several on before making the decision, everyone's haid is different.

That saying "if you have a $5 head, buy a $5 helmet" (or whatever the dollar figures were) was written and distributed by marketing people to help sell expensive helmets and is pure BS IMO and I refuse to be brainwashed by marketing hype.
They wouldn't distort the truth, would they?

Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 18 2004, 03:42 PM

I bought a Scorpion (chinese) Full face Motorcycle helmet Snell and DOT approved. the entire lining comes out for washing and drying. If you ever sat in grid waiting to run and it's 95 hundred degrees outside. You may want to wash the insides before the next event.

Posted by: theol00 Nov 18 2004, 04:02 PM

BELL Helmets closeout - good deals

go to the the www.bellhelmets.com and look for closeouts

http://www.genuineaccessories.com/Closeout/closeout.htm

Posted by: scooter311 Nov 18 2004, 04:04 PM

Been buyin noodle buckets for a while - don't forget either that if your noggin' takes a floggin, you may have to junk it and buy another. The foam / cell liner gets impacted, and can no longer protect your melon. I have a really nice Bell that I've had for a while, and the foam finally gave out - time to buy another..... It conforms to your head when new, and once it's crushed, even a little, it will fit a little worse and wont' have the impact protection any more.
I have a Shoei VFX as well - you can find lots of good deals on top dollar helmets after the new year, distributors will sell then real cheap once the new models come out. It was a 450 dollar helmet, I bought it at closeout for 179 bucks. I'll never pay full price for a top-name, but the cheepo ones are in most cases poorly made.

Cheers!
Jeff

Posted by: TimT Nov 18 2004, 04:30 PM

well its all good advice... but also get one that fits well.. try a few on, different brand helemets fit differently

the removable liner is a definite must.

I also recommend a full face helmet. Even though my cars are closed I drive with the visor down. I have been hit by errant pebbles, faces full of dust, rubber tire snots etc... I dont want any of those things contacting my eyes, or skin when I pulling at 130 or so..

Posted by: Dave_Darling Nov 18 2004, 05:22 PM

A few points from my perspective:

First, Chung's local PCA does allow M-rated helmets for both Driver's Ed and Time Trial. (As well as for autocross.) Things may very well be different if you go outside of Zone 7 PCA, Chung, but as long as you just play here you're fine with M.

Second, as of a few years ago there were precisely two different tests that the helmets went through to get an SA-rating over an M rating. One was testing that the liner was fire-resistant. The other was a drop test onto a cylinder--a simulated roll-bar hit. This is in addition to the "ledge" hits, the point-impact hits, and so on and so forth. I believe it would be very difficult to design a helmet that would pass the other impact tests, and also fail the roll-bar hit test... And I know that some manufacturers have used a single shell design, with different liners for M- and SA-rating. And if it ever gets to the point where it matters if my helmet liner is fireproof or not, I am probably not surviving anyway.

Third, any hard hit on the helmet turns it into a paperweight. The foam inside is a one-time-use kind of thing, and the shell is a one-time-stressed kind of thing. Bounce your head off the pavement while wearing the helmet, get a new helmet. Ditto for the roll bar or what have you--if you hit hard, new helmet time.

Fourth, someone posted on the Pelican BBS (either Racing or 914) that the new -05 helmets are slated to start coming out in October of 2005. They said they got that from the Snell Foundation website.

Fifth, fit is vital. Try on a whole bunch of different helmets--that's why it is important to go shopping in person. Hopefully there is a good salesperson there to help you out. My GF and I went to Wine Country Motorsports (I told her she'd pay a 25% premium for that, but she wanted to go there!) and the guys there were very knowledgeable and just great to work with.

...I personally have a head that ain't worth that much. I have a <$100 open-face M-rated helmet. It is nice and lightweight, and I can wear my glasses with it very easily. I have found that I have real difficulty putting on my glasses when wearing a full-face helmet. (Damn round face of mine...) There is a pretty good chance that I will get a full-face helmet anyway if and when I get back on the Big Track for real, but for a while I will be quite happy to use my heap-a cheap-a helmet.

--DD

Posted by: ArtechnikA Nov 18 2004, 06:41 PM

the http://www.smf.org/stds.html

the standards are here; check 'em out for yourself...

Posted by: trekkor Nov 18 2004, 09:50 PM

I picked up a nice Pyrotect ( Bell ) open face SA2000 helmet at Wine Country Motorsports at Infineon Raceway early this year. Very comfortable and reasonably priced.
They even gave me a 10% 914club discount.

I don't remember the exact price

Seems like around $150?

KT


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Posted by: PatW Nov 18 2004, 10:25 PM

I like helmets from Arai. knocked my noggin a few times good enough.. Had a 5$ helmet once, then and had a big get-off on my motorcycle. I had a headache for a week.. Never again.. This is what I usually wear whenever I'm doing autocross or karts.


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Posted by: Dr Evil Nov 19 2004, 12:19 AM

I use a HJC $60 helpmet when I ride my motorcycle and have been hit twice with it on. Worked like a charm. I do need to get e new one. You are supposed to replace them when they are "used" in their intended manner. Make sure not to use a plastic alloy helmet. They are cheapert, but what you want is polycarbonate (bullet proof).
HTH

Posted by: scooter311 Nov 19 2004, 07:59 AM

Dave your killin' me!

" ...I personally have a head that ain't worth that much. "



Thumbs up on Arai as well


I like a lot of the HJC stuff lately

Full face helmets are best in all cases - hard to eat a cheeseburger with a straw

Posted by: larryp Nov 19 2004, 08:45 AM

Everyone has told you the facts; you simply cannot pick a helmet online or by recommendation, you have to try it on. You will see that they all have slightly different shapes, since our heads do. When you try them on in the store, once you find one you think you like, you should wear it for a LONG while to make sure it has no pressure points. The last thing you need is a headache that pops up from wearing it too long. There are lots of great helmets out there: AGV, Shuberth, Bell, Simpson, Arai, Shoei, etc. I have owned several dozen and go through the process each time.

Head shape pretty much is consistent within brands (to a degree a few manufacturers change shape, slightly, from model to model but even that is very little). Determine the brand that fits your head the best and then buy the lightest helmet that brand offers you are willing to pay for.

IMO

Posted by: itsa914 Nov 19 2004, 08:55 AM

Just one more. I like my Bieffe, fits well for my melon plus the nice big opening makes it easy to get my glasses on.
Cost about $275, if I remember correctly.


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Posted by: ArtechnikA Nov 19 2004, 09:35 AM

exactly why they're -not- best in ALL cases. this is the current firestorm in SCCA and i expect it will flow down and out to everyone else in time, hopefuly in time to influence buying decisions for the coming season...

http://scca.org/_Filelibrary/File/AirbagAdvisory.pdf

the salient portion is: " In a crash with airbag deployment, contact with the chin area of a full-face helmet can be so powerful ‘that the risk of fractures to the jaw cannot be ruled out. "

i don't expect to be tracking the Subarus, even in an AX but ya never know - there's not a lot of competition in the 3000-lb AWD station wagon classes ...

this issue probably doesn't affect most of us with "vintage" competition cars but i know we have many instructors among us who are called upon to drive and right-seat airbag cars, and for those times, an open-face helmet may prove to be the best thing.

once again, we see that stuff put in our cars to save us from ourselves is actually more dangerous than the conditions we are to be saved from ...

Posted by: Part Pricer Nov 19 2004, 09:46 AM

Thanks. I pointed that out in my earlier post in this thread, but no one seemed to notice.

Of course my 914 doesn't have airbags. But, I'm also an instructor and I'm often in the passenger seat of new vehicles. I have an open-face helmet primarily so the people I'm instructing can hear me. Now, it looks like it was also a smart decision based upon the SCCA advisory.

I just received this today. It originated from Ford.

Posted by: ArtechnikA Nov 19 2004, 09:58 AM

i knew i read it somewhere - sorry about the duplicate post ...

and yet - moments ago on the RennList Racing list, was posted this:

"
We've been watching this item for about a week now, and it apears that the SCCA jumped the gun on this info... the safety concern originated from a test of an F1 airbag system, not a street car system. Our sources close to the SCCA say to basically disregard this warning. Street car airbags are aimed at the chest area, whereas an F1 or similar lay-back positioned racer it would be aimed at the chin
"

so now - who knows... i'm keeping the notice in my newsletter, because it fits so well into an odd shaped hole on my page, and i'm way beyond deadline ;-) ...

Posted by: scott thacher Nov 19 2004, 10:08 AM

hay slits maybe you need to contact the scca and pca and get em to approve the helmet you wear on the short bus, why buy another