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Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 01:25 PM

anybody heard of a V-TEC conversion for the 914. KEP could probably come up with an adapter if he doesn't have one already. but, will a front drive motor work with a rear drive tranny? does the crankshaft spin in the same direction? anyone hear of any other front drive engine conversions? my 914 deserves more power than i can afford to get out of my type 4 motor. for the cost of nickies and upright cooling and head work, etc. i could have a turbo vtec setup.

fire away...

Posted by: dlo914 Dec 15 2004, 01:41 PM

ricer

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 15 2004, 01:45 PM

Many fwd engines do spin in the right direction, but Hondas are weird, and a lot of them spin the wrong way. This can still be fixed. One can use a 915 gearbox w/o flipping the diff, or you can flip the diff on a 914 gearbox.

The next step is figuring out if the engine will even clear everything in the engine bay. Some inline fours are too long to fit w/o lots of cutting. The turbo Soob engines fit well, and make lots of power.

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 15 2004, 01:47 PM

Blasphemizer!!! You'll roast in 914 hell for it!

Now that being said, there is (was?) a kit at KEP for such a swap, but you will have to get a 911 tranny, or flip the ring gear as the 4cyl Hon-duhs turn the other way (they're just funny that way). If you want more HP for less $$ and you want something unique that will enrage the purists, I have a corvair engine that will bolt up with less modification I have it rigged to turn the right way and to put out 170-180hp.

What do you figure a V-Tech conversion would cost? Always double that amount.

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 15 2004, 01:52 PM

Buy muellers engine adapter and all. Vr6

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 15 2004, 01:59 PM

Muellers selling the VR6!? What happened?

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 15 2004, 02:09 PM

Check the Classifieds

FS: '74 chassis, w/cage and sorted suspension bunch of pictures Mueller

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 02:09 PM

i thought a v-tec conversion would enrage the purists enough? guess i was wrong.
i like the v-tec cause its got a billion hop-up parts and lately i've been drooling over variable valve timing engines.

Posted by: soloracer Dec 15 2004, 02:18 PM

A billion and one "bling bling - makah no power" parts you mean. I don't count turbo's as a special "hop up part" for a Honda because you can turbo any car. Most of the Honda stuff is relegated to bolt on headers, intakes, etc. If you are going to go turbo with an engine transplant stick to a motor that was turbo'd to begin with. Perhaps a 3SGTE from Toyota. I actually bought one for my 914 but sold it when I got my 20b. As for the whole Vtec thing - highly overated in my opinion. All you get is a little power surge in a small part of your powerband. Mostly marketing hype.

Posted by: Cloudbuster Dec 15 2004, 02:26 PM

It seems the money that isn't being figured is the conversion materials. Motor to motor a (stock) T4 sucks cost and power-wise against a V-TEC, but if you figure all the $$$ and time spent on installing said V-TEC, you'd be equal with a built T4, for less effort. Then there's the whole down-time component of converting to a different motor. blah, blah, blah...

Posted by: SLITS Dec 15 2004, 02:27 PM

Sell your 14, buy a Honda and be happy!

True sports cars were about handling as opposed to horsepower.

Posted by: Mueller Dec 15 2004, 02:41 PM

yep...VR6 engine and adapter are for sale ....175 hp stock and you keep the car German powered (I'm going with a 2316 Type IV)

as said before, the 4 banger hondas turn the wrong direction (the V6 go the correct way), you are on your own for motor mounts and how to wire it up to your car to get it running...about the only thing you can use knowledge wise from other swaps is how to do the cooling (complete kits or Mickey Mouse Engineering )

Posted by: soloracer Dec 15 2004, 02:48 PM

That's too bad. I was hoping to see the VR6 install thread. The only Honda motor that I know of that goes the right direction is out of the S2000. But for the price of one of those you would be better off with a Porsche 6.

Posted by: Mueller Dec 15 2004, 02:53 PM

I'm a little disappointed as well, but the more I thought about it, the VR6 engine swap would just be a novelty with no real value except bragging rights perhaps??

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 15 2004, 02:55 PM

Balderdash...... tell it to Ferrari.

That was a line promougated by old European (mostly English) car fanatics who had (via tax laws) no horsepower to speak of.
Oddly enuff, most all of these wankers worked real hard to get more power into these shitboxes.

Horsepower is now and will always be.....glorius.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 03:16 PM

VR6 = $$$. i'm leaning towards the honda because i have a few "hook-ups" for parts and engines. i agree with the bling bling parts, but the fact is that there is a wide selection of parts to choose from, and not all of it is bling bling. i don't think the v-tec is hype, its just a different way of squeezing horsepower out of a small engine. i'd probably wouldn't even go the turbo route if i got the v-tec, i'm just saying that to get a similar amount of power out of the type 4, i could have a turbo motor that would be smokin' that expensive type 4.

the motor mounts is something that would be a challenge though. and i was thinking about the 3sgte motor too. but, that 3sgte isn't all that cheap or easy to come by either. maybe an sr20det?

oh i feel so ricer. shame on me.

Posted by: soloracer Dec 15 2004, 03:32 PM

You have to remember it's not just peak numbers that count. That is something that the Honda crowd has been sold on for years. Making 200 hp over 200 rpm is not useful for anything other than bragging rights. Take a look at the new Celica. A friend of mine bought one and it's a dog until the varible valve timing kicks in. He has to shift almost immediately after it hits though and then he's back out of his powerband. A stock 140 hp 13b RX7 from 1987 stayed with him all the way through the gears even though his car is advertised to have "190 hp".

I bought my 3SGTE for $1100 and sold it for $1300. They aren't that hard to find. A nissan engine would be nice - a member here has a Maxima engine in his 914. They make power the old fashioned way - displacement or forced induction.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 03:44 PM

i wouldn't mind having the nissan motor, but again, cost and availability for me are the issues. it would probably be simpler to mount a RWD motor, but like i said i have good resources for the honda stuff. and i don't mind wringing my motor silly in order to make power. did you have any ideas on mounting the mr2 motor? i do work at a toyota dealer, so the 3sgte might not be that bad of an idea either.

anyone want to buy a 2.0 type4 with complete fi and alot of new parts? lemme know.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 15 2004, 03:45 PM

Sung to the tune of "Ice Ice Baby" by Vanilla Ice.


"Rice Rice Baby...... Rice Rice Baby"


Don't be a rice boy... if you gotta go conversion, go for the mega-HP. Put a 502 Chebbie Rat motor with a blower in a 914! Now that would be "overkill".....

Posted by: tat2dphreak Dec 15 2004, 03:51 PM

I think:

Posted by: Brett W Dec 15 2004, 03:58 PM

Clay,
For all that hatred of rice, you must have had your 914 smoked by some "ricer" in a civic.

I agree with JP. Horsepower rules. If you don't have it you are just another toy car that should be in the slow lane.

Honda makes some good stuff. They were the first manufacture to make the 100hp/litre mark and have a reliable daily driver. Plus you can make them handle great. I have seen many a turbo and non turbo civic with enough power to walk away from most 911s and 914-6s. Boy that will really piss off some of the Porsch owners. Built right I have seen a few that could out handle some 911s and 914s. You can build a lot of power inexpensively with Honda parts. There is a huge aftermarket for them as well. I have seen street driven 200-600hp civics. So what if they are wrong wheel drive and the engine is in front of the driver.

The Civic, Focus, Corolla, Celica, Golf, GT are the new tri-year Chevies, Novas, Lemans, Darts, etc. Like it or not they are the future.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 15 2004, 04:07 PM

I don't hate Japanese tuner cars. I hate riceboy POSEURS who slap stickers and fart cans on their cars and think that they can smoke a Viper when they don't know the proper way to install their lug nuts.

I know a lot of Japanese cars that can smoke a 914. That's not the point. I will rag a poseur in a 914 or 911 who puts a bunch of race look junk on the outside of a stock car.

Fastest car I ever drove was a Honda. It was a Honda 600 (read tiny little car with 2 cylinder, air cooled 600cc motor cycle engine). The owner bought it from a guy who transplanted an 1100 Hurrincane motor into it. 70 MPH and it could lay waste to a Corvette with ease. Even had a sequecial shifter.

I don't hate Japanese cars. I hate the Poseurs they attract.

Posted by: Mueller Dec 15 2004, 04:09 PM

, you can pick them up in good shape and running from $500 (what I paid) to $1000 all day long



I'm not trying to be an ass, but if you have to ask questions like that, then a swap like this is not for you, there are no part numbers to go by...test fitting and fabrication is going to be required....do some research and find pictures of other swaps, this will give you a general idea of how to do it......

the adapter plate and flywheel is going to cost $500 no matter what engine swap you decide on.....unless you very creative and have access to the machining to do so and even then, it's still going to cost some money as long as you do everything correct the first time.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 04:45 PM

why does everybody have to rain on my parade? don't blame honda/toyota/nissan for all the ricer crap that's out there. i have no problem putting a jap motor with reliable horsepower in my 914. the only problem is how it will fit...

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 04:51 PM

i'm fully aware that some(maybe alot) of fabrication will be required. thankfully my dad's a great machinist and my bro's a super welder. if we put our heads together we could probably figure something out. but that's not to say that i mind pirating some or all of someone elses good idea i'll fess up that it wasn't my idea if someone asks me. i'll give credit where it is due.

Posted by: Mueller Dec 15 2004, 05:01 PM

just about anything will fit....Chevy V8s are installed into 914s on almost a weekly basis...the "biggest" engine I've seen in a 914 is a 928 engine, after that one, the rest are a piece of cake....so yes, your honda/toyota engine will fit (stay away from the straight 6's from toyota, too long unless you want to cut the firewall)

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 15 2004, 05:07 PM

You yourself said "fire away" in your opening post. You didn't expect anti-ricer flames? Hey, you started it...

Nothing wrong with a Jap motor in the 914. The VTEC may not be the best Jap motor to go with. Lots of other Jap engines spin in the correct direction, and can make more power than you can reasonably use w/o spending big money on gearboxes, and are known to clear the engine bay. If you're in to trying something new, then go for it, but don't expect much help, as no one else will know anything specific to tell you. Fitting any alternate engine is going to require fabrication of parts you simply cannot buy. You won't be able to buy an exhaust for a VTEC or most other engines that will work in a 914. You won't be able to buy an engine mount for these things. Both will need to be made up custom. The fact that turbo kits are available for the VTEC is rendered moot by the fact that you're not mounting it in a Honda. The exhaust will still have to be done up custom.

In short, what you're proposing is a fairly big deal, and the fact that you can get special pricing on some internal engine parts isn't going to do much about that. If you can weld and fabricate, then stop talking and start doing. No one else can help much, as no one else has done what you're trying to do. If you can't weld or fabricate, you'll need to learn or open your wallet wide.

This isn't raining on your parade, this is being realistic. If you really want to do it, then do it. I'm sure many of us would be very pleased to see the final product and would like to hear about how you did it. Ground-breaking is expensive, though.

Read your PMs.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 05:12 PM

my co-worker has a twin turbo supra running 20psi of boost. all i can say is

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 05:18 PM

the fabrication and welding shouldn't be a problem, but since family members are doing it, it may take a while(sighhhhh). i just hope my old man doesn't retire before i get a chance to start on such a project. if he does, then i'll have to make friends with the local machine shop. and i don't mind the ricer flames, i'm not a ricer. i just don't like having to face the truth...that no matter what, my dreams will take time and money to realize. i hate the real world! :finger2: anyone know the nubers to the winning lottery ticket? i'll give you a high-five for it!

Posted by: Mueller Dec 15 2004, 05:28 PM

cash works wonders with making friends

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM

back to the subject at hand, i've seen some subaru, v8, v6, rotary conversions, but no inline 4 conversions. i don't think anyone on the board has one. anybody seen one before?

Posted by: ! Dec 15 2004, 05:32 PM

When ya do the swap....don't forget the fart can.....

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 15 2004, 05:37 PM

Start a spread sheet on the Costs,
engine
adapter
and so on

I was thinking that economically , I bet that the VR6 set up is priced right , and is different.
Thats .002 cents please

Posted by: Mueller Dec 15 2004, 05:37 PM

yep....4 cylinder dodge/chrysler turbo motor has been done.........for the cost and time involved, there are better choices than a 4 banger motor and the fact that there are a few kits for V8s and V6's, so that is why there are more....

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 15 2004, 05:38 PM

A couple points here...

First, Honda's version of the "which cam do you want now?" is called VTEC. V-TECH is a manufacturer of http://www.vtechphones.com/vtechui/index.cfm.

Note that Honda was the first one to come out with a mechanism to switch cam profiles on the fly, and that other companies like Toyota and even Porsche (Variocam-Plus) have emulated them.

Second, the K-series engines (S2000, the modern Civic) all turn the "standard" direction. Older B-, D-, and H-series engines all turn the "wrong" way.

Third, the only engine swaps you will find off-the-shelf parts to bolt together for are the 911 engine swaps and the small-block Shebby swaps. Anything else will involve measuring, fabrication, hair-pulling, trial and error, and repeat all of that until you start to go crazy. And it may very well be worth it, if you're proud of the results.

Finally, most of the Honda engines have reasonable power curves. The typical recipie seems to be to take a four-banger motor with an OK power band that idles fine and is pretty flexible, and to keep that setup for low-RPM operation. Then for high RPMs, they switch over to the cam lobes with lots of lift and duration--which helps make high power. Even at lower RPMs, they're not too bad. Especially in a lightweight car.

The Celica and S2000 are evidently the worst of the lot for being gutless when on the low-RPM cam. From my readings, the Celica is a whole lot worse than the RSX Type-S in this respect, and may even be worse than the S2K! Imagine that, an engine with less "flexibility" than the S2K?? (One comparo article I read said that the Celica's motor "out-Hondas Honda".) Most of the Honda mills tend to be decent or at least half-decent at low revs, and really very good indeed at high revs. You could do much worse than to put an RSX Type-S motor into your 914... But those are pretty spendy motors, because all the guys with regular (current-model) Civics want them for engine swaps...

A B-series, like a B18C1 (Integra GS-R) could be nice. Something on the order of 150 lb-ft of torque and 180 HP should help a lightweight 914 get out of its own way. But again, it may be more $$ than you would like to spend because lots of Civic drivers want to swap a GS-R motor into their car. And remember, the B-series spins the "wrong way".

And on and on it goes.


...And yes, my other car is a Honda!!

--DD

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 06:19 PM

thanks for the tips dave. i'm thinking that the only hard part of the swap is going to be the motor mounts. i'd probably use one of those v8 radiator kits and a kep adapter and flywheel. i'm pretty sure my bro can help weld up an exhaust and brackets and stuff. i'm still wondering if a RWD motor would be easier as far as the motor mounts go.

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 15 2004, 06:39 PM

IIRC, the engine mounting points on many fwd engines assume that the transaxle is used for some of the mounting. There's nearly always a mount at the nose of the engine, where the timing belt is located; and another mount on the "front" of the engine (side that faces front when mounted in an fwd car). The "rear" mount (side that faces the firewall) is often on the transaxle, so there's nothing to bolt to if you remove the transaxle.

You might be able to ignore that and simply use the "nose" mount on the 914 firewall, relying on the mounts at the gearbox tail to take up the lateral forces. This is basically what the orignal 914/6 mounting system does. If that works, then the engine mount might not be all that bad. This frees up a lot of space on the sides for exhaust and intake.

The chief difficulty I see with this mounting system would be that most inline fours shake a good deal, a lot more than the flat six does. All of that shaking would be transmitted through the geabox to the rear mounts, which will probably have a significantly shorter life than with a flat four or six.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 06:41 PM

noway, gotta have DUAL fart cans!

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 07:36 PM

so maybe i could weld up some kind of mount at the firewall and then maybe some tube steel from the side of the engine compartment to the mount on the "front" of the
motor. hmmmm. i need to go look at some honda motors.

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 15 2004, 08:52 PM

The D- and I believe B-series motors mount thus:

There is a left-side mount that goes in the middle of the timing belt. (Yeah, you have to remove one mount to replace the t-belt. And you gotta do that every 60K miles.)

There is a right-side mount on the end of the transmission.

There is a front mount from the transmission onto the forward crossmember.

There is a rear mount from the transmission onto the rear crossmember.

I just did a transmission swap on the CRX last Sunday, so this is fresh in my mind....

--DD

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 15 2004, 09:12 PM

So, there are NO engine mounts on the engine itself other than the "front" mount through the timing belt. I suspect this isn't uncommon practice on other fwd cars, either.

It's purely speculation on my part about the shaking causing any long-term problems with the 914 gearbox mounts. Seems plausible, but it may amount to nothing. It could also rip the mounts out in a 100 miles. No telling until some sucker tries it...

Posted by: monkei Dec 15 2004, 09:16 PM

maybe a 911, i've never heard of a honda outhandling a well built 914. and i doubt i will.....

the only japanese motor id consider giving up PCA membership for would be an STI Subaru motor. something like 280lbft of torque and around 300hp, imagine hooking that up to a built 915 gearbox...

ive been thinking about potential powerplants: 928 motor? too heavy for AX. Chevy? hell no! 2316cc turbotype4? not enough longevity and too much money!! porsche 6? i wish i was rich enough.

i would totally love to do a twin turbo typeiv of a reasonable displacement (2056-2316) but i dont know exactly how im going to build the heads to handle lots of boost pressure. anybody know of any companies that do individual heads per cylinder (4 heads, 2v per)? ive spent some time looking at the heads and block on a type iv and it looks like it will certainly be a hell of a challenge to do a twin turbo typeIV right. ive heard that beveling head/mating surface to fit in each other and running the motor rich to form a carbon seal to hold high head pressure.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 10:32 PM

i have to go to pick n pull to look for a tail light for my corolla anyways on sunday. i'm gonna take a long hard look at some honda motors and think about them while i dig through my hell hole on monday. just one mount on the motor side sounds kind of flimsy to me. maybe there are some areas on the honda motor that could recieve a mount. i'll have to take a look.

and about the ring and pinion in the 901, is it as easy as i dont think it is to "flip" in order to work with the honda motors rotation. i have a feeling there's some machine work involved, or something.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 10:35 PM

i think you just answered your own question.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 15 2004, 10:36 PM

that sounds like a "dare"!

Posted by: Brett W Dec 15 2004, 10:49 PM

Get a reverse rotation camshaft and spin the motor backwards. There problem solved. Really dropping one of the B20s or H22s should make a nice little street motor. Slap a turbo there and run 400+ and you would have a really ass kicker. Grab whole front clip and engine wiring harness. You would have to do some minor work and it should wire right in. Get either Uberdata, AEM or Hondata and hand tweak the computer for your application. Buy a set of headers and just run it like the factory did and route it out the drivers side of the motor, straight out the back.

You should not have any more headaches than these other people that do conversions.

The 928 motor weighs more than a cast iron small block engine. Not worth it. the Scubby motor would be really neat. Forget building a turbo T4, RIGHT. Until there are some better heads it is not worth it.

Posted by: Mr.C Dec 15 2004, 11:43 PM

All this talk about power and handling with Hondas, lets just see for ourselves. I'll take this engine as a swap anyday. He can keep the brakes though. Watch and see. http://cs.widener.edu/%7Eepanek/Watkins%20Glen%20Sept%2027th.mpg

Posted by: soloracer Dec 16 2004, 01:03 AM

Brett: I don't know what part of the world you live in but around here I don't know of a single 400 hp honda let alone 600 hp. I would think such a car would be extremely rare and extremely expensive to build. I stand by the claim that bang for the buck a honda engine is NOT the way to go to get big horsepower. As Dave mentioned the factory has done a lot with the engines in stock form and getting any more from them means going forced induction. If you are going forced induction you might as well start with an engine that has more potential. A reliable turbocharged honda engine is expensive to put together in a honda let alone graft into a 914. Any cost savings he might get from his connections will be ate up by the number of modifications he will need to get decent power from his engine. IE: Buy a vtec motor and turbocharge it or just buy a 3sgte? For the vtec motor you will need to buy the turbo, wastegate, manifold, engine management system and probably change the injector sizes for beginners. And then you have all the headaches of tuning and trying to keep the engine from blowing itself up. For the 3sgte you use the stock ecu and turn up the boost a little - maybe change the injectors or increase fuel pressure if needed. Which do you think would be the better choice?

I used to own a Honda Prelude and it was a nice car but only after I bought my 944 turbo did I find out that the Honda was gutless. On top of that the mods that most people "get hooked up with" are things like exhausts, headers, intakes, etc. and these for the most part give only minimal gains. A guy I ran with in Solo 1 found out that the Mugen header on his Type R actually cost him a few hundreths of a second a lap. He did better with the stock system.

Posted by: Mueller Dec 16 2004, 01:12 AM

okay...here is the drivers side* of a 4 banger honda motor
the 2 red circles are towards the front of the engine, a mount can be made to bolt there and go forward, this in turn would mate to a mount that you have bolted/welded to the firewall





*once motor turned 90° in the correct orientation


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mueller Dec 16 2004, 01:18 AM

now if you look at the other side of the engine, the blue circles are the factory motor mounts if you removed that , the 2 red circles have bosses that can be used to mount the motor.....pretty simple if you ask me

if space permitted, you could always fabricate a mount that ties the the "drivers side" of the engine to the factory mount (in blue) and hang the motor off the front of the engine....this is sorta how it is done on Boxsters and factory 914/6 engines (even some 914 /6 conversions with much bigger engines)


Attached image(s)

Posted by: Mueller Dec 16 2004, 01:20 AM

oh yea...the discussion of 400hp Honda engines DOES NOT belong here......period, the guy is on a dirt cheap budget so the idea of getting that much power is totally irrelevant right now in my opinion...let's stick to the thread

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 16 2004, 02:11 AM

How much for your 2.0 4 youre taking out out of the car ?burnout:

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 16 2004, 03:59 AM

You aren't looking in the right place.

From the SCCA AX Nationals:
D Prepared Honda Civic .......93.974
No 914s of any ilk have listed times in the Sports Car results.
To have a listed time, you have to trophy.
The guy (BMW) that beat Fordahl (914) in F Prepared last year won again this year in 93.952.
Fordahl ran a GT3 in ASP: 96.468.....3rd place.
These a cumulative times for 2 courses.


A honda car is a gud place for a Honda motor.

Posted by: scott thacher Dec 16 2004, 08:25 AM

personally a suby motor is just about bolt in, kep has the wiring stuff it you want to do it your self or small car can do the wiring for you. there is a motor mount you can buy, the adapter has been around for ever. also there are about 500 suby motors pushing vanagons ( type IV factory), that is a hell of a knowledge base.

heck the suby motor is even based on porsche and vw designes

Posted by: Brett W Dec 16 2004, 09:23 AM

Not bad for a full street car. I see he suffers from the common problem of broken wheel bearings. Sure has good pull though. Even though he has aftermarket calipers he didn't bother to do anything about the little dinky rotors. Brakes are one thing the Germans now how to do right. I can't tell you how many times I wished I had the teener brakes on my civic. NEED MORE BRAKE.



I'll be happy to start another thread to show your ignorance. HP is never cheap. I don't care what you build. Isn't the 3SGTE the engine in the MR2. I hear it likes to pop head gaskets and connecting rods when you crank the boost up?



OK that is like comparing a Honda 100 mini bike to a Suzuki GSXR 1000. Apples to oranges. What year Prelude? Maybe 200hp pushing a 2800lb car. Yeah driving a tank will feel gutless. I can assure you My stock Civic Si with 105hp is just as much fun as a stock 2.0 914. They weigh about the same, performance is comparable, the civic may be a touch faster in a straight line, but it makes a great daily driver and I can haul some shit in it as well.

If you want to see a civc out handle a 911 or 914 look at many of the Solo 2 classes. JP hit that one on the head.

I agree on the Subby. Drop in for cheap.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 16 2004, 11:55 AM

mueller, great job on the pics! you just happened to have a honda motor laying around? looks like with the right brackets and a modified engine mount bar or a custom one, mounting that engine to the red circle holes wouldn't be too hard. maybe the stock bar would work, just custom mounts and a custom oil pan. hmm. this is starting to look a little more promising.

i'm still not sure how hard flipping the ring and pinion will be.

again, mueller, nice job on the pics. whats the engine code for that one?

Posted by: soloracer Dec 16 2004, 03:01 PM

Brett,

I'm hardly as "ignorant" as you suggest - just as I'm sure your ego won't lead you to believe you are the definitive source of all engine knowledge. In your original post you were throwing out some big numbers from Honda engines like they were common place. If our friend is interested in getting a reliable, under 200 hp engine and will keep it stock then by all means get the Honda. However, it sounds like a big reason for his getting the Honda is he is hooked up with an aftermarket parts supplier. This line of thinking seems to me like he is choosing the motor more for performance than for reliability. In my opinion the reason he gave (aftermarket parts supplier) is a really poor reason to go with the Honda engine because most of the aftermarket engine bolt on stuff for Honda's is geared towards the ricer and has limited power potential for what you pay. Additionally, which someone else brought up, a lot of the parts are car specific - not engine specific - and may not fit in a 914.

My suggestion was to start with something that had more potential for the same money. In response to your "HP is never cheap" comment I would like to note that HP is cheaper in some engines than others. Case in point is the Type IV engine. It costs big dollars to get more out of it. Now take a good ol' chevy 350 and drop the same amount of money in it and you'll see much larger gains.

As for my Prelude it was a 1990 SR - 140 hp stock. I went around the track here with an instructor in a Honda Civic Si and it was a blast. I then had him drive my Prelude and we were able to keep up with another instructor in an M3 through the corners which blew me away. Of course on the straights we got dusted pretty bad. The point is the Honda can be fun to drive like you say. However, most of the "ricer" guys aren't going to drive at the track like you do. Most "ricers" are poseurs - a large percentage of which are Honda guys - who bolt shit on and think they are now comparable to a corvette, viper, M3, 911, etc. They also spout of the virtues of V-TEC like it's a the end all be all. Honda has done a good job of marketing their product quoting some impressive power figures but what people don't pay attention to is that peak HP is not the answer. Having the most useable horsepower and torque through the broadest powerband is more important. Who cares if the engine spikes to 200 hp for a span of 200 rpm if the for the previous 4500 rpm it's below 130? Muellers VR6 swap make more sense to me than the Honda.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 16 2004, 03:25 PM

the reasons i'm opting for honda power:

1. reliability.
2. i have a line on COMPLETE motors and tuning resources at a very reasonable price.
3. a multitude of aftermarket parts to choose from at a good price also.
4. more power than my type 4 at a lower cost(for the engine).
5. i like the variable valve timing thing, hype or no hype.
6. i miss my rx-7, and i have the need for a motor that i can rev the shit out of without
breaking(at least not breaking right away).

whether or not these are good reasons is a matter of personal opinion. i don't really plan on maxing this motor out. a few simple hardware/software mods is all i'm looking for at first. i'm just finally figuring out that i'm never gonna get the power i want out of my type 4 without breaking my bank. the honda may break me at first, but in the long run i think i'll enjoy it more.

Posted by: J P Stein Dec 16 2004, 03:47 PM

For me, this all boils down to.....Whatcha gonna do with it when it's "done"?

Go on drives? Park it in a lot & open the engine lid?
Blow off ricers on the street? Brag that ya built it?
Post pics on the net? Ask a whole bunch of money for it on Ebay? AX? Race? Rally?

I love hot rods & the idea of hot rods, but for me they are not, in themselves, the endgame.

Posted by: Sammy Dec 16 2004, 03:54 PM

Shame on all of you.
A porsche engine should be left completely stock as the good doctor intended. No modifications, no engine swaps. It should be just as it left the factory

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 16 2004, 04:04 PM

Sammy :
Lets see here you had a 914 V-8 and have an SC with a Turbo

I do agree this is really
Keep the Honda a Honda If you want power reliabilty the chev V-8 unlimited for the 914 chassis from iron to alloy, carb to inj.
Buy your performance parts everyplace.
Thats 2 more cents . whats your budget ?

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 16 2004, 04:13 PM

I don't know if anyone has thought of this......

Spinning a 901 backwards will cause all sorts of weird failures. The transmission was designed to spin in one direction. Even if you flip the ring and pinion, the input and pinion shafts spin the same way. When you put a reverse rotation engine in with a 901, you spin all the innards in reverse. Therefore the oiling may not work, and the thrust bearings will be loaded in the opposite direction from the way they were designed. The thrust blocks and brake bands in the syncros were designed wth a particualr spin direction.

Quote from the factory manual " Due to its slanted tab, the thrust block exerts a pressure, through its longer end, against the inner face of the syncronizing ring. "

This implies that the syncros are designed to run in one direction only.

And when you spin the trans the other direction, the helical cut pinion gear climbs up the ring gear in the opposite direction. Therefore it will push against the back of the intermediate plate, instead of pulling against the front of it. That means that all the power of the engine is pushing against the bearing retainer plate. Yes, I know this happens in reverse, but you dont' run for hours at 3K rpm in reverse. At best you may get to 500 rpm on the pinion shaft for a minute or two when in reverse.

And last but not least, your speedo is driven off the pinion shaft, so it's going to run backwards, counting down the miles, instead of counting them up.


I am not trying to rain on your parade, but I think that you are inviting failure if you reverse the rotation of a 901 gearbox.

Posted by: andys Dec 16 2004, 04:22 PM

In one of my conversations with the senior Mr. Hobert Kennedy (of KEP adapters), he was quite sold on the best motor for a 914 swap was the Nissan 300ZX V6. Makes for a very nicely balanced power package, he said, and doesn't destroy transaxles. I think it is 195HP in NA form, with lots of performance upgrades available outside of the turbo or twin turbo versions. Motors are plentiful, and prices are reasonable. Just passing along some info.

Andy

Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Dec 16 2004, 04:33 PM

I think the nissan engine would be one of the best all around engines for a 914. I really like what Chris has done with his. Just seems like it would be a nice useable car with great power.

Bob

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 16 2004, 04:38 PM

The 901 used on the early 911 are the same box with a flipped R&P. No problems and has been many times since. Even ask Jake who accedentally did it.

Posted by: soloracer Dec 16 2004, 04:39 PM

I also spoke to Hobart when I ordered my adapter and clutch kit. Very helpful man. He also said the subaru was a good match and I almost went that route - specifically the 3.3 out the SVX. There is someone here with a nissan v6 in their car and they also have a website. Looks like a really nice conversion.

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 16 2004, 04:57 PM

Sure, all of those early 911s driving around with 901s that spin in the opposite direction are failing constantly. Porsche finally dope-slapped themselves and realized they'd designed the gearbox to go the OTHER way, so they flipped the R&P and put the engine in front of it for the 914. Someone vaguely remembered the first 356 was this way, and someone just reversed the plan before they went into production.

They went ahead and designed the 915 to spin the right way for the 911s, solving that problem, though some idiots keep flipping the R&P and putting them in 914s.

Some people just never learn...

Posted by: mattillac Dec 16 2004, 05:07 PM

the fact that the 901 may fail when run "reverse" sounds possible. anybody have any long term experience with a flipped 901?

Posted by: mattillac Dec 16 2004, 05:10 PM

uhhhhh, what! is that possible? i've never heard of that before. or am i just getting my chain yanked. please don't play with my emotions.

Posted by: Mueller Dec 16 2004, 05:14 PM

no, that is not my engine...I refuse to own a honda (but I have no problem owning a Hyundai, go figure, hahahahaha)

pictures came from eBay.....I hope you are good with electricals, cause you are going to need it with that install...the "hard" parts such as mounts are easy, the electrical gets much more "interesting"

Posted by: Sammy Dec 16 2004, 05:25 PM

Steve Malm had a 300ZX powered 914, heck of a car.
It wouldn't burn the tires like a V8 but ran like a clock and had plenty of power.
I bet he still regrets selling it.

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 16 2004, 05:29 PM

Dude you want to put a Japanese engine in a German car.
Get used to the Emotional Roller Coaster.
It will be exciting

The chev corvair prob most common cause runs backwards too.

Posted by: Dr Evil Dec 16 2004, 05:30 PM

The corvair is easy to reverse and cheap to rebuild as well. Not like the Hon-Duh.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 16 2004, 05:36 PM

i have no desire to take out my air cooled engine just to put in another air cooled engine. i didn't know reversing an engine was an option. how do you go about doing it?

i thought about the 300zx motor before, but i'd kind of like to keep the number of cylinders to a minimum. i've also seen those cars have overheating problems on more than one occasion. but, how well those engines were taken care of is questionable.
that would be a sweet motor though, and a good excuse to have a dual exhaust.

Posted by: lapuwali Dec 16 2004, 06:00 PM

First, my little rant about the gearbox was sarcasm, for those who didn't get it. Flipping the R&P causes no problems, because the 914 runs a 901 with the R&P flipped itself.

As for reversing the spin direction of the engine, it's possible, but there's a good chance it won't work. First you'll need to get some backwards running VTEC cams made up. Good luck on that. I suspect most cam places will look at you like you have three heads when you ask for it. Second, most modern engines have offset wrist pins to reduce the thrust loading on one wall of the cylinder while the crank and rod are driving the piston on the upstroke. This only works one way. You'd need to reverse the pistons in the bores, at least, to get this to work while the crank is rotating in the opposite direction. There's also a good chance the cam drive won't work when spun backwards, either. There are some engines (primarily Italian) with toothed belt cam drives that will skip teeth if you turn the engine over backwards BY HAND, let alone actually drive it that way.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 16 2004, 06:07 PM

what exactly is involved in flipping the r/p? just flip it around, or are alterations to other parts of the gearbox in order?

Posted by: Dave_Darling Dec 16 2004, 06:41 PM

James, flipping the R&P only changes the direction of rotation of the output shafts. It does nothing to the rotation of the input shaft and the pinion shaft. If you have an engine that spins the other way, both of those shafts will be spinning backwards.

So it may actually be the case that running the input shaft of the transmission backwards will reduce its life or will make it work very strangely.


I suggest side-stepping all of this backwards-running stuff. Get a K-series motor that spins the correct direction. 160 HP @ 6500 RPM ; 141 lb-ft @ 4000 RPM for the lower-powered version. I believe (but don't know for a fact) that the 200 HP (@7800 RPM) version still has 141 lb-ft @ 4000, but the torque peak is 143 lb-ft @7000.

Or, heck--get yourself a Nissan SR20DET. It's a force-fed monster of a motor!!

--DD

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 16 2004, 07:23 PM

Honda CRX + Chev V-8 Grassroots motorsports this month


Attached thumbnail(s)

Posted by: monkei Dec 16 2004, 08:25 PM

so what im gathering here is that an wrx sti motor spins the correct direction for a 901 but will require flipping/reorienting of something to get that motor to work with a 915 gearbox? or because the 915 has to be slung opposite from in a 911 to work in a 914 it would work with no crazy crap like flipping ring&pinion? dont mean to hijack, all this tranny talk has brought up some questions......

Posted by: ! Dec 16 2004, 08:27 PM

There are TWO 901 transmissions.....one for the 914 mid engine and one for the 911 ass dragger......one turns one way, the other turns the "other" way.....because they are mid engine and ass draggers.....

Posted by: Mueller Dec 16 2004, 08:31 PM

for a "normal" engine spinning the conventional direction...any use of a transmission previously installed tin a 911 will require the ring and pinion flip...unless you run the transmission upside down...of course that is another story and if you have ask how, don't bother doing the swap, it's not for you

Posted by: mattillac Dec 16 2004, 11:47 PM

still wondering if flipping the ring and pinion will require any tranny mods.

the SR20DET is a pretty tempting option. but boost is something i have zero experience with. then again, i've never done an engine swap either. anyone got a line on JDM nissan motors?

as far as engine electronics go, i would like to think it's as easy as making sure that i have a complete fi system and just making sure everything is wired to where it needs to go on the engine, add power and go....sorry. i drifted off into dream land again

Posted by: Mueller Dec 17 2004, 12:06 AM

I don't think you have to "modify" anything to do the "flip", however, you need to ensure that the teeth mesh up correctly.....I've taken apart a bad 914 transmission and that is about my experiance with them, you might need special tools to do it correct so it might not be something that can be done in a day while sitting on the workbench

so have they made crack legal in vallejo???

it's possible, but it'll be tough, there is another member here that put an Audi 1.8T motor into his 914 and is running the factory Audi brain, as long as you can get some documents on the Honda stuff it shouldn't be too bad, luckly there are tons of websites for them so there has to be someone that knows the wiring to the ECU and motor.

so yes, you know it can be done, when are you going to pick up and engine and start????

Posted by: bondo Dec 17 2004, 12:22 AM

http://www.hudsonimports.com/vteccobra.mpg

Brace yourself before watching this one

Posted by: ClayPerrine Dec 17 2004, 07:40 AM

Flipping the ring and pinion in a 901 is not a difficult task if you have the correct tools. But it is tedious if you don't have experience.

Here's the thing to remember... IF YOU USE A 914 TRANSMISSION, YOU DO NOT HAVE TO FLIP THE RING AND PINION."

Flipping the ring and pinion has absolutely no effect on the direction the input shaft of the transmission spins. It just reverses the direction the output flanges spin.

Every engine built by Porsche or VW spins the same way. Therefore, all of the parts in the transmission were designed to accept stresses from the proper rotation direction. Yes, you can flip the ring and pinion, and hook a motor that spins the other direction to it. But It will probably break. And if it doesn't, It will be very hard to shift, the gears will grind, and the life of the gearbox will be reduced signifigantly. Think about this, we have vendors out there that make billett intermediate plates for the 901 because of wear problems when spun in the correct direction.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 17 2004, 09:57 AM

cracks never been legal in vallejo. but, it's cheap and easy to get, so why not?? gotta get past january, then i should have the extra money to start collecting the parts.
time to start looking at some v8 and subby conversions and check out their cooling systems.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 17 2004, 06:38 PM

so from what i've gathered, it seems that i can get my wheels to turn the correct way, but i'll still be spinning my tranny internals in reverse. not something i want to do. i'd rather not go to all the trouble of doing the swap and then bust my tranny. even if it doesn't bust the tranny, it's not something i want in the back of my mind. especially when spinning that vtec motor up high. oh well.

i had always considered the subby conversion. seems like a mo' betta way to go. but getting my hands on a complete turbo motor with ecu and all probably aint gonna be as cheap as i could get the honda stuff for. time to check ebay/craigslist.

Posted by: soloracer Dec 17 2004, 08:30 PM

If you are looking for a suby engine (twin turbo) there was one for sale somewhere with the adapter plates for a 901 or 915 transmission. I think I posted about it here a while back. I can't remember if it was a classifieds section somewhere or on e-bay.

Posted by: mattillac Dec 18 2004, 12:30 AM

found some ej20 engines on ebay for a decent price, but they dont come with the complete ecu. i should probably just save up my pennies for some wrecked donor car and just buy the whole thing. then i'll know everything is there. that would be easier i think. just pick and choose what i need and take it off.

Posted by: sixnotfour Dec 18 2004, 12:52 AM

OR ,
It turns the right direction,

[QUOTE]was thinking that economically , I bet that the VR6 set up is priced right , and is different.
Thats .002 cents please

Posted by: Mueller Dec 18 2004, 01:01 AM

[quote=sixnotfour,Dec 17 2004, 11:52 PM] OR ,
It turns the right direction,

[QUOTE]was thinking that economically , I bet that the VR6 set up is priced right , and is different.
Thats .002 cents please [/quote]
"they" might even throw in free shipping for you