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Posted by: WLD419 Nov 24 2013, 08:46 AM

Here's a few pic's of my planned conversion to twin plug with a Pauter cam , &
either MSII or MegaJolt with edis4 x 2 for ignition, Bill D.

Posted by: RobW Nov 24 2013, 08:54 AM

You rock.

Posted by: Kirmizi Nov 24 2013, 08:54 AM

Posted by: kid914 Nov 24 2013, 08:56 AM

Posted by: Maltese Falcon Nov 24 2013, 12:03 PM

Nice machining , twin plugs rock !
More pictures as availble please.
Marty

Posted by: 396 Nov 24 2013, 02:51 PM

Wow, congrats!

Posted by: r_towle Nov 24 2013, 03:02 PM

Any flow bench work done on the heads?
How did the numbers look?

Posted by: Woody Nov 24 2013, 04:30 PM

This is what I'm talking about. what compression are you shooting for?

Posted by: barefoot Nov 24 2013, 04:56 PM

If I read your calipers correctly you have a very large step increase in port size from outlet of intake manifolds to head port inlets, not a good aero flow path.
Whats the thinking here ???

Posted by: WLD419 Nov 24 2013, 05:46 PM

Thank you for the compliments & kudos ,

Rich , I don't have any flow numbers , I ported these heads myself (budget build)
I had Jorge at EMW do the twin plugs for me , I did the chamber work & cut the .060
step in the cylinder seating area ( trying to get a better seal , 103mm bore ) I had
Len ( HAM ) cut the valve seats on his Serdi machine ,

Woody , the compression will about 11 to 1 with a .032 deck machined into the head chamber area ,

Barefoot , that's a picture of the intake manifold before porting & after porting , 33mm before & 40mm after , & 50mm where the 48mm throttle bodies bolt on ,

Thanks again guys Bill D.

few more pic's

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 24 2013, 05:59 PM

Twin plug engines LOVE cylinder pressure! I always back up a few degrees on duration and start at 11:1 CR with the tightest deck possible. So far thats been good for 274HP from 2.8 liters on 91 octane. That engine had .025" deck.

You'll find that timing the engine is very, very far removed from your previous attempts and that it will optimize much leaner than it used to.

Posted by: WLD419 Nov 24 2013, 06:41 PM

Thanks Jake for chiming in , these are those vintage heads I picked up last year on your e-bay site , wow .025 deck is a little to close for me , the timing I've read & been told will be less ,they say as much as 6-8 degrees less , this twin plug stuff is all new to me
but its time for a change on this motor ( 3yrs + running on this version) , I'd be happy with 200hp at wheels , 15 more than I have now , thanks Bill D.

Posted by: WLD419 Nov 24 2013, 06:48 PM

I'm hoping this cam will be ok , it was ground way before I decided to try twin plugs Bill D.

Posted by: gothspeed Nov 24 2013, 07:01 PM

AWESOME!!!!

What EDIS modules are those? Part numbers?

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 24 2013, 07:17 PM

The cam is a little long for what I'd choose, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Start timing around 22*BTDC full advance to be safe, at 11:1 it shouldn't optimize at more than 24*, if it does, well, then you'll have conclusive evidence that the cam was too long :-)

Glad to see the old heads getting some new life, those are several generations of vintage :-)

What you'll find with twin plugs isn't so much more WOT power on the dyno and bigger numbers, but mostly insane throttle response and unreal torque gains below 4K RPM, especially with the larger bore size that needs all the help with flame propagation that it can get.

Posted by: WLD419 Nov 24 2013, 07:32 PM

Cool , thank you very much , Bill D.

Posted by: gothspeed Nov 24 2013, 09:08 PM

What valve spring arrangement will be used on these? ......

Are any of these valves Ti?

Posted by: WLD419 Nov 25 2013, 05:10 AM

The modules I picked up from the bone yard out of a couple of ford escorts , I'm leaning towards megajolt ignition with edis4 x 2 with Mario's crankfire gear & bracket for vr sensor ,
I'm already running EFI , CB performance quicktune (older version w/o ignition )

I'll be running CB performance's vw650 dual springs , I have a set in the heads I'm running right now with titanium retainers with .560 lift ,

stainless valves with Ti retainers ,
thanks Bill D.

Posted by: jimkelly Nov 25 2013, 08:41 AM

http://thedubshop.net/

would dual plug be worth any extra HP on an otherwise stock engine?

does emw have a website?

carry on : )

Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 25 2013, 08:53 AM

Jake posted in another twin plug thread that the twin plug worked best on large displacement engines. I would assume that would have to with the added volume of charge and the increased chamber area for the charge to expand. But I'm no expert.

Posted by: FourBlades Nov 25 2013, 09:33 AM

You are always doing something cool to your engine.

It was great seeing you again this year at the Ramble.

John

Posted by: McMark Nov 25 2013, 10:41 AM

Awesome Build!

I love MicroSquirt Ignition drivers built in, fuel and ignition for four cylinders, small, waterproof. I'm gushing now...

Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 25 2013, 11:56 AM

emw = European Motor Works.... add a dot com and your good to go.

Posted by: gothspeed Nov 25 2013, 11:35 PM

awesome!!! Thanks for the info! It is great to see such cool mods actually being done!

What kind of carbs or efi will be used?

Posted by: WLD419 Nov 26 2013, 07:14 PM

Posted by: WLD419 Nov 26 2013, 08:16 PM

Here's some pic's of the pistons I'll be using ,some oldschool Aria's 103mm I picked up on the samba last year ( collecting parts for awhile ) price was right ,
they didn't have grooves for the clips so I made some Teflon buttons (ptfe, McMaster) , thanks for looking Bill D.

Posted by: gothspeed Nov 27 2013, 12:39 AM

Wow!!! Great pics !!!! I like the 'air cooled' spark plug wires too !!

With that awesome 911 style cooling system, I have to ask, what kind of tin/shroud is needed for this configuration? Is this cooling setup totally custom or just 'some' of it .... with the balance available from whom? .......

Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 27 2013, 09:19 AM

Correction: Large BORE engines, even a 2.0 thats a short stroke, large bore could benefit greatly from twin plugs, just like the same bore on a 3.1L beast :-) Thats because the dwell time for flame propagation matters so much more with large bores. Having two plugs on opposite sides of the chamber allow for two flame fronts that meet in the center of the chamber rather than a single flame front that has to burn across the chamber more slowly.

I find that most large bore single plug engines require 32-34* BTDC timing to optimize, while the same heads and cam when used on a smaller (96mm) bore will optimize at 26-28* BTDC. This screams efficiency because the same (105-107mm) bore size with twin plugs will optimize with 22-24*BTDC timing as a twin plug engine.

Any engine that we build thats over a 102mm bore gets twin plugs, as standard. And a roller camshaft :-)

When it gets interesting is adding more dwell time to one plug more than the other and then firing one plug before the other, or splitting the timing up between the two plugs by a couple of degrees. It will make your head spin, but the torque scale on the dyno will twist even further. Thats how I built a 249HP, 2.8L engine that still averaged 35 MPG running at 80 MPH.

Posted by: gothspeed Nov 29 2013, 01:36 AM

What cylinder head cores were used to create this awesome configuration? 1.7 or 1.8?

Posted by: WLD419 Nov 30 2013, 09:16 AM

It's an old (11+ yrs.) BB (Bernie Bergmann) off road system with a few internal mods done to help equal the temperature closer to each other . I never got around to putting sheet metal trim ( needs to be custom ) so far it's been good to me ,I tried those deflector piece's under the car , but in my case it made it worse , maybe if I put the sheet metal trim on & sealed the engine compartment , it may work ( more work in the future ) , thanks Bill D.

Posted by: gothspeed Nov 30 2013, 10:02 PM

Post more pics of this engine Bill!!!

Posted by: dfelz Nov 30 2013, 10:20 PM

+1!

Was there a build thread from that engine? I would love to see more details and pictures.

Posted by: wndsrfr Dec 1 2013, 09:36 AM

Beautiful set up--love the velocity stacks--old school "Pornsche".

WATCH OUT during assembly of the fuel rails & injectors that you don't leave out the little clips that retain the injectors into the rail. Mine were left out such that the only thing holding it all together was the screw from underneath pushing the rail down onto the injectors. Screw worked loose, engine started misfiring at VIR on back straight, found fuel spraying copiously from driver's side rail and the hell hole under the relay box FULL of fuel because a stray 10mm tin screw was blocking the drain hole and the fuel had even seeped through into the carpeting on the left side of the driver's seat. Anyone with the CB injector rails please take note! BTW, I'm a fan of SFI rated fire suits now...

Posted by: gothspeed Dec 2 2013, 04:44 PM

in the hope more pics will be posted ..............

Posted by: WLD419 Dec 2 2013, 07:02 PM

You brought up a good point , if I didn't have clips ,( which I did) I wouldn't have known , as for the screws I have a lock washer & thread locker on it , thank you for the heads up ,

The velocity stacks I had in the back of the shed ( they came with 48 dells I bought off the samba ) I found them looking for something else & I thought , I liked the look so I bought some screens from Bill's Racing , Thank you Bill D.
here's a link
http://www.bbrfilters.com/apps/webstore/

Posted by: WLD419 Dec 2 2013, 07:26 PM

Here's a few pic's sorry these are older , I promise to take lots of pic's when I do the twin plug change , Thanks you guys Bill D. , I hope you like

Posted by: carr914 Dec 2 2013, 07:30 PM

That is some 4 Cylinder Porn right there!

Posted by: gothspeed Dec 2 2013, 10:14 PM

Totally freakin' awesome!!!!

Posted by: Mueller Oct 21 2016, 01:24 PM

Bumping an old thread while looking for info....

how is this beast running?