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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Lifter fund- Over budget!
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 01:13 PM
Okay guys....
Before we can go to another level with the lifter/cam testing its gonna take some contributions from some generous enthusiasts. We don't need any big contributions at all, even if I could get a dollar from everyone that we know needs these lifters from various forums that I visit it would probably be enough to finish up the testing and get the developments made. I know thousands of people are building or will be building these engines and they would all benefit from this testing and development. The one thing about the VW ? Porsche world that I have always been impressed with is our brotherhood and ability to help each other whether thats on the side of the road , despite the severity. Consider this as helping your brother off the side of the road before his engine dies!
I have spent 12,000 bucks of my own money (not including what the since July trying to get these issues resolved and thus far have seen some very odd trends as well as some barriers that we just can't get past without even more money needing to be spent on parts.
I originally thought that I would never be working on this for this long! We figured that no more than 3 months would be needed or no more than about 4-5 thousand bucks would be needed to get a solid answer.
We have even more tests planned and there is light at the end of the tunnel and finally we started seeing some positive results.
I never thought this would take this long or be this expensive. I don't have an unlimited budget and the cam/lifter manufacturers won't send us any more freebies (never got many in the first place).
I hate to give up at this point and I really refuse to, but its just hurting the wallet badly and taking away from other developments so much that I can't go further.
My goal is to create a cam and lifter arrangement that can be installed in any engine with the same integrity that was previously available with the Old Johnson lifters. In those days we could bolt any engine together with any spring tension, not even break the cam and lifters in any special way and get a guaranteed 100K+ miles from it. Even though we have worked through to the point where serious failures are not happening right away, we still are seeing too much wear and every time an engine is fired up the first time its like Russian Roulette!
Off the shelf, Web Cam and their lifters are still the best bet. Not perfect at this point but the best available.
I am not going to be happy until we get this resolved. Any help you can give us would be appreciated by the entire Type IV industry.
Our paypal address is info@massivetype4.com
(thats the corrected one I edited the addy)
I'll keep giving my time, but just can't keep spending money on cams and lifters.
Posted by: Brent Jan 6 2005, 01:42 PM
You accept Paypal? I'm good for a buck.
Posted by: Brent Jan 6 2005, 01:44 PM
Guess I should have read the whole post! 
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 6 2005, 02:14 PM
Awww..man...I just know some numbnuts is going to bust Jake's balls about this...If you never plan to build a T4 then STFU.
If you DO plan to build a T4 then you need to help Jake...a buck or two won't kill ya!!!
20 bucks sent buddy!
Jake BTW I will know if this guy is going to buy a shroud by Monday...I'll call you then bud.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 02:40 PM
Sounds good!
I DARE someone to bust my balls about this! If you are gonna do it I highly suggest you email it to me because I will do everything I can to embarass you in front of the board!
Be the one! ( I am not kidding)
Seriously I would have never wanted to do this and would not if I had a huge company. We can only write so much off before the book keeper cuts us off, at which point its all being tossed away. That point was quite a while back.
I only can spare so much money for development and right now we are having to spend a bit of that on coating R&D, Our MassIVe Heads and of course the 914 version of the DTM.
All of those things my business will benefit greatly from but lifters can only be sold for so much and right now I'd have to sell about 20 thousand bucks worth to get my investment back out of them!
That would take years.
Any help is appreciated.
Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jan 6 2005, 02:49 PM
Jake - i'm in. keep up the great work!
jbb
Posted by: aircooledboy Jan 6 2005, 02:53 PM
Pony up here kids. It is the least we can do for the invaluable input we get from Jake. 
Paypal Sent Jake. I might never build one of your engines (I hope that's not true), but I truly value the knowledge you share with us here. Consider it a small token of appreciation. 
Posted by: Root_Werks Jan 6 2005, 02:54 PM
$5 paypal'd to ya Jake. I am not even a type4 guy, but you do great work. 
Posted by: Cloudbuster Jan 6 2005, 03:02 PM
$$$ sent.
Posted by: Rhodes71/914 Jan 6 2005, 03:03 PM
Jake, I'm paypaling $5 to ya. Can't afford one of your engines now but someday I will be able to.
Sean
Posted by: buck toenges Jan 6 2005, 03:08 PM
You got $10.00 solid gold hoosier dollars coming your way from Indiana via paypal. I have a 3.2 6 cylinder but I want a Raby type IV for my next project,.... when ever that will be.
Hey Jake, why don't you make some sort of non-profit operation so I can write this off. 
Buck
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 6 2005, 03:22 PM
Jake,
No one else has mentioned this, but I tried paypaling you and the following was displayed:
*****************************
Payment Details
Pay To:
shrouds@aircooledtechnology.com
User Status:
This recipient is not yet registered. PayPal will send an email to the recipient explaining how to open an account and receive your transaction.
*****************************
Have you not opened the account yet, is it a glitch, or should I send anyway?
Posted by: one914racer Jan 6 2005, 03:30 PM
my paypal status says unclaimed
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 03:31 PM
Something is up with the paypal acct. We are working on it now!
Thanks!
If you sent us $$ already to that acct we have not gotten it due to the issue.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 03:39 PM
Okay!
Got it fixed, I had the wrong damn account listed- That one was deleted a while back!
I'm a nut...
The new one is info@massivetype4.com
That will do it!
Posted by: GWN7 Jan 6 2005, 03:44 PM
Change the account in the first post....
Posted by: James Adams Jan 6 2005, 03:45 PM
New address works fine!
Posted by: Jeff Bonanno Jan 6 2005, 03:46 PM
ok - cancelled the other one and re-sent! good luck Jake,
jbb
Posted by: Korijo Jan 6 2005, 03:54 PM
25.00 sent 
Posted by: buck toenges Jan 6 2005, 03:57 PM
Jake, My paypal notice said it went thru with the shroud address.
"This email confirms that you sent $10.00 USD to
shrouds@aircooledtechnology.com."
Buck 
Posted by: J P Stein Jan 6 2005, 04:02 PM
..If you never plan to build a T4 then STFU.
Pardon me, sir, but does that mean shut the fuck up?
Posted by: Rhodes71/914 Jan 6 2005, 04:08 PM
Canceled and changed address.
Sean
Posted by: Joseph Mills Jan 6 2005, 04:10 PM
Yeah, it's workin' fine now.
And thanks for all your efforts with TIV's and your contributions to the 914 forum.
Posted by: spunone Jan 6 2005, 04:27 PM
Jake what I don't get is why can't anybody copy the johnson lifter is it material or the way it's machined.Or maybe we can tract down an ex employee and squeeze the info out of him.Just thinking out loud 
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 04:39 PM
Nobody did it like Johnson!
BUT, the problem goes deeper than just the lifters.
BTW- If you never plan on building a T4 please don't contribute. A few guys have so far, but they may never get to benefit from it and while I appreciate it its not totally fair.
No payments have went through the shrouds account. It doesn't exist...
Thanks to all who have helped! We have about 250 bucks so far and that will get us quite a few test pieces processed.
Posted by: Stephane Jan 6 2005, 04:43 PM
Keep up the good work. Keep us informed 
Stephane
Posted by: type11969 Jan 6 2005, 05:09 PM
Jake-
Money sent and well spent, least I can do for all the information you have imparted to all of us here and on the stf. Looking forward to hearing the results.
-Chris
Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 6 2005, 05:36 PM
no paypal. do you have one of those boxes with a red flag on it? could you provide an adress?
kevin
Posted by: DJsRepS Jan 6 2005, 05:45 PM
Is the Johnson lifter a roller type? What are the tests being done? Would pic's be much trouble? A pic is worth a thousand words they say.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 06:27 PM
Read all about it here
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/research.htm
There are three different links you can follow from that page. Just read the headings and follow them..
One person contributed TWO HUNDRED bucks! WHEW!
All i was looking for was maybe 5 bucks!
My mailing address is:
Raby Enterprises Inc
Attn R&D
47 Raby Drive
Cleveland GA 30528
THANKS!
I'll post a tally later tonight!
Posted by: Ray Warren Jan 6 2005, 06:48 PM
Done
Keep up the good work.
Posted by: d7n7master Jan 6 2005, 06:53 PM
Hey Jake!!!
I won't give up - You don't give up!!!
You've come too far in support of OUR passion.
Would it be cool if I sent you a $100.00 check or money order for one of
your videos???
I 'effing hate paypal.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 06:56 PM
Sure!
Send it on in and I'll send you one of both of my videos for your gracious contribution!!!
Posted by: d7n7master Jan 6 2005, 06:59 PM
Jake. Pick your poison. Check or Moneyorder???
Thanks!!!
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 07:05 PM
Check is fine..
Posted by: URY914 Jan 6 2005, 07:06 PM
Jake,
You got my $10.00. I'll donate 10% of all my parts sales to the cause.
The info you have provided to us for free over the years is priceless.
I feel like a venture capitalist.
Paul
Posted by: Dominic Jan 6 2005, 07:08 PM
Jake,
I'll donate to the cause. Thanks for all of your research, time and efforts that you put into the type 4. 
When are you going to start taking deposits for the new 2.0L Rods???? I'm ready to shell out for that as well
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 07:10 PM
Don't know on the rods just yet... Keep watching for news..
Thanks for the help!
Looks like I'll be ordering more cams and lifters tomorrow!
Posted by: DuckRyder Jan 6 2005, 07:21 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 6 2005, 08:27 PM) |
| Read all about it here www.aircooledtechnology.com/research |
had to put the .htm on it.
http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/research.htm
Snail mail on the way, I'm peeved at paypal.
Posted by: d7n7master Jan 6 2005, 07:26 PM
Jake,
Done deal. I'll mail a check tomorrow. And here's to an end to the madness
Kick some developmental ASS!!!
BTW - a 3 month engineering development plan that changes material, geometry, or sometimes even processes generally takes close to one year at an aircraft company in Long Beach, Ca.
So cheer up! You no doubt have more engineering data in 3 mo's than we do in 6 mo's.
Rock On!
Posted by: rhodyguy Jan 6 2005, 08:02 PM
what we have in cheepness, we make up for with heart.
kevin
Posted by: soloracer Jan 6 2005, 08:16 PM
| QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 6 2005, 05:06 PM) |
| Jake, You got my $10.00. I'll donate 10% of all my parts sales to the cause. The info you have provided to us for free over the years is priceless. I feel like a venture capitalist. Paul |
If I send him $50 in your name will you send me the PORSCHE reflector? I'll even pay for shipping.....
Posted by: URY914 Jan 6 2005, 08:33 PM
| QUOTE (soloracer @ Jan 6 2005, 06:16 PM) | ||
If I send him $50 in your name will you send me the PORSCHE reflector? I'll even pay for shipping..... |
"PORSCHE reflector"
What?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Jan 6 2005, 08:50 PM
i guess we arent cheap bastards
Posted by: aircooledboy Jan 6 2005, 08:55 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Jan 6 2005, 08:50 PM) |
| i guess we arent cheap bastards |
No no, I'm still a cheap bastard. 
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 6 2005, 09:24 PM
But Cheap Bastards with a heart!!!
Actually the big contributor is a BUS enthusiast and I have built two engines for him...
LOL
Thanks guys, hopefully this will be enough to finish this testing up and get to the bottom of it all!
Posted by: soloracer Jan 6 2005, 10:04 PM
| QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 6 2005, 06:33 PM) | ||||
"PORSCHE reflector" What? |
Sorry, mistaken Identity. I think it might be SirAndy that I'm looking for. So what do you say sir? $50 contribution for a PORSCHE rear reflector?
Posted by: dinomium Jan 6 2005, 10:19 PM
Now if I could just pay for an engine kit a saw buck at a time...
Posted by: 9146986 Jan 6 2005, 10:45 PM
I don't think I'll build any type fours, so I guess I'm out of the loop.
A suggestion if I may? Instead of soliciting free donations, have you thought about pre-selling lifters? I mean if you are building a better part, won't there be a demand?
Just my .02. If my other business wasn't struggling right now I'd probably be a investor.
Posted by: bernbomb914 Jan 7 2005, 12:08 AM
I am paypaling you because I dont want to buy another set of ceramics. I hope the DTM is making progress
Bernie
Posted by: ablose58 Jan 7 2005, 12:33 AM
Hi, Jake, the check will be in the mail tommorrow best of luck on your R+D AL
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 7 2005, 12:45 AM
This isn't a solicitation!
It was actually an idea given to me buy a customer that added extra money on his invoice just to help fund the lifter research- Thats what gave me the idea. In the past I have had guys randomly send me money to buy dyno fuel for cooling system testing...
As for selling lifters beforehand:
Thats bad Karma. I only sell something once its all proven! What happens if I can't get the lifter issue worked out??? A few guys may be out a few bucks but atleast I don't have to caugh up thousands of bucks for a product I can't deliver.
Many times when a company does something like that they end up rushing through things half assed to get the orders filled...
There is nothing worse than a part or engine that is pre-paid...... As soon as its paid for guys lose their patience and thats no fun when everything HAS to be time consuming to do it right with these engines.
This way its simple.. If you want to help, help... If not don't worry about it.
I just got through swapping lifters in the cam spintron and if I was charging someone for this they would be broke!
To tell the truth- If it wasn't for ceramic lifters I would be totally out of business since there is nothing out there right now that will live as long as I advertise my engines to last except a ceramic.....
And to think that we are really the only engine shop that is even using them....... I have heard of shops losing 50 engines in one year! Hell in 2004 we only built 36 engines!
Lotta guys taking big risks everyday and don't even know it when they buy some mass produced engine from someone that don't give a damn..
Posted by: swood Jan 7 2005, 12:51 AM
I've made my contribution to R&D already by buying ceramics.
Posted by: Mark Henry Jan 7 2005, 07:18 AM
I just noticed the paypal mix-up (wrong email)...how do I cancell the first donation on paypal...I can't see it??!!
Posted by: aircooledboy Jan 7 2005, 09:11 AM
| QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Jan 7 2005, 07:18 AM) |
| I just noticed the paypal mix-up (wrong email)...how do I cancell the first donation on paypal...I can't see it??!! |
When I logged on to paypal, it took me right to a screen that showed the transfer was "unclaimed". If not, select the "my account" tab at the top, and it will take you to that screen. I clicked on that entry, and then selected the "cancel" box at the bottom. When I entered the new address, I got a new screen showing the old one cancelled, and new one as "completed".
Posted by: porsche914blue Jan 7 2005, 09:14 AM
I'm in for $10.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 7 2005, 11:44 AM
Thanks so much!!
We just broke 800 dollars in contributions!
This is amazing! every dollar helps.
Posted by: cnavarro Jan 7 2005, 12:08 PM
Hey Guys. Thanks for those who've donated and/or bought ceramics. There are two main issues- rotation and wear, although both are tied together, they have their separate issues. I've been working with Jake on this project, having lifters analyzed for material properties, heat treats, composition, etc, then determining whether heat treats were done properly, and if not, what should have been done differently. This is all without the help of lifter manufacturers! Another thing we're dealing with is rotation of lifters, and dialing in the proper rotation, to ensure long life. So far, we've tested every lifter available and are moving forward with testing various ways of resurfacing, case hardening, heat treating, nano-tech coatings, and other treatments. I'll be the first to cheer when we have an alternative to ceramics, since it's very hard to keep then in stock and have them delivered on schedule. Hopefully we're close to finding the light at the end of the tunnel! Thanks for your support!
Charles Navarro
LN Engineering
http://www.LNengineering.com
Aircooled Precision Performance
Posted by: John Jentz Jan 9 2005, 11:37 AM
Hey Jake, just put a check "in the mail". Well actually it'll be in the mail tomorrow. Thanks for the testing and thanks for all the info you share.
I'm not a cheap Bas***d, I'm just always broke!
Posted by: guywan914 Jan 9 2005, 04:56 PM
Jake count me in for a donation. Keep up the good work and the all important info you feed all of us. Check will be in the mail tomorrow.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 9 2005, 05:28 PM
Thanks so much guys!
Over the weekend the lifter fund surpassed ONE THOUSAND bucks!
Charles is taking part of it to buy some more various lifters and have them processed various ways..
I am buying some different camshafts from various places and also buying some different Billets to send to web and have ground with the same profiles for comparisons.
Thanks again!
Posted by: rdauenhauer Jan 9 2005, 05:36 PM
| QUOTE |
| Charles is taking part of it to buy some more various lifters and have them processed various ways.. |
Im assuming you guys have already applied cryo techniques ...w/o the desired result?
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 9 2005, 08:00 PM
They helped, but didn't solve the issue...
Posted by: ottox914 Jan 9 2005, 08:26 PM
Getting in on this mid stream, but what exactally IS the issue? Does it affect stockers or just the more highly modded motors?
Posted by: Britain Smith Jan 10 2005, 01:18 AM
I already have a set of ceramic's for my engine, but I will contribute to the cause because as a fellow engineer I understand what you are going through. Paypal is on the way.
BTW, when are the kits for the oil squirters going to be available?
-Britain
Posted by: DJsRepS Jan 10 2005, 05:37 AM
Ottox it would help any motor. Alot less friction on the cam and lifters = more hp and less wear on the cam = longer motor life even better mileage if thats what you want. But most of us just want to go faster for a longer time. And or with the friction thing licked it would lead to improved cam grinds and stronger springs bigger valves etc... From what Ive read I think that is where Jake is taking this research.
Posted by: watsonrx13 Jan 10 2005, 05:49 AM
Check's in the mail....$25....
Good luck with the development and thanks for supporting the teener world...
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 10 2005, 07:24 AM
The problems are effecting EVERY type of build from stock right up to full race.
For well over a year the ONLY lifters we have been using are ceramic because there was no proven lifter out there that we could run and KNOW that there would never be an isue.
After some shops lost 20+ engines a couple of manufacturers of lifters finally listened and changed their lifters. The days of having a cam and/lifter fail on start up are now way less likeley but we are still seeing accelerated wear that should not be present!
In July I built this machine http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/lifters.htm to test cams and lifters in a real world arrangement with all the variables present that would be inside an engine. This machine has really helped to show direct comparisons between different cam and lifter manufacturers as well as giving us the ability to see the effects that more or less spring tensions can have on an arrangement as well as trying different oils and different oil additives.
This is not fun, or cheap work! Thanks so much for the donations guys!
Posted by: banderson Jan 10 2005, 08:37 AM
Jake,
What ever happened to the Roller Lifters? Are they still an option.
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 10 2005, 08:55 AM
Being tested as we speak... In Two different engines.
Posted by: rhilgers Jan 10 2005, 01:05 PM
Paypal'd.
Figured I'd better...since Jake had so much fun with my engine, I know he will want to see it again someday and try the lifters out! ;-)
-Rich Hilgersom
Posted by: itsa914 Jan 12 2005, 09:06 AM
Paypal sent.
Posted by: Doug Leggins Jan 12 2005, 10:53 AM
Sent Paypal $
Posted by: Jake Raby Jan 12 2005, 10:58 AM
Sweet guys- SWEET!
Thanks so much..
All your money just got spent :-)
Posted by: aircooledboy Jan 12 2005, 12:03 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 12 2005, 10:58 AM) |
| Thanks so much.. All your money just got spent :-) |
Wow, was that weird.
For a second I thought my wife was communicating with me through Jake's screen name.
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