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Posted by: Villemi Dec 25 2021, 09:21 AM

Hello,

We know on our D -Jetronic harness some male connectors 2,3,4,5 ways with female connectors with female pins inside.

https://servimg.com/view/11738604/1921

Do you know female connectors with male pins inside. ?


I need your help because I want to use on my 914 Porsche a 123 ignition distributor.
For the OEM distributor I have a 3 ways female connector and for the harness 3ways male connector
I'd like to make a little harness with a 3 ways male on one side and 3 ways female connector on the other side
It's easy to find male connectors with female pins but I don't find female connector with male pins.

Do you know where I can find these parts ?

The advantage of this little harness is if I have problems with the 123 ignition distributor I can use my OEM one without harness modification.

Can you help me please ?

PS: what is the item number of these D-Jetronic connectors ?

Best regards

Michel

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Dec 25 2021, 10:06 AM

I have never seen these or used them but I think they would work.

AMP 928931-1

But this does not solve other issues for our weather exposed engine bays.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Dec 25 2021, 11:23 AM

A concern with using the 123 dizzy with DJet (which I support) is this connection at the ‘trigger points’. The stock trigger points configuration is a male connector housing on the harness into a female housing on the trigger points on the dizzy. The rubber boot provides critical functions - it covers the connection holding the housings together, waterproofing/dirtproofing the connection, protecting the exposed wires from heat degradation and providing strain relief to the wires.

123 provides the two wires needed emanating out of the dizzy body, but does not address the functional electrical connectivity concerns. It’s easy enough to install heat shrink tubing over the exposed wires but how about the connection to the harness? I think it needs either a custom molded make terminal connection just like the factory mounted to the dizzy, or at least a new 2 piece connector housing (male/female), with mating quick disconnect terminals and some way to waterproof/dirt proof the connection. For the second option it would be good if the terminals on the existing FI harness could simply be re-inserted into the new housing without needed to cut or modify the factory FI harness.

Posted by: Villemi Dec 25 2021, 03:31 PM

I began a 3D prototype drawing this evening

https://servimg.com/view/11738604/1922

I continue tomorrow

I need some male pins items that I could put in the connector please

Posted by: adolimpio Dec 27 2021, 08:36 PM

I'd love to see a solution.

https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Splice-Terminals-connector-insulated/dp/B01MQ2VUGC/ref=sr_1_4?crid=CVAQDBL89QIE&keywords=2.8+mm+male+spade+connectors&qid=1640658836&sprefix=2.8+mm+male+spade+connectors%2Caps%2C95&sr=8-4

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 17 2024, 04:14 PM

Necro-thread revival alert!

I've been thinking about this a bit - anyone have any ideas as to obtaining a 3-pin male connector so one could insert the 123 Distributor pins and get a good, solid long-term answer for the install?

Posted by: windforfun Jun 17 2024, 06:41 PM

"Necro-thread revival alert!"

Is this a bad thing?

Be alert, we need more lerts.

Posted by: GregAmy Jun 18 2024, 06:40 AM

Why not convert it to a crimp-on Deutsch-type connector? When I built the wiring harness for my Microsquirt conversion (see sig), I used these on everything:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07L9XNFGG

Those are available in much larger quantities (for example, there's a 152-piece set).

I much prefer the true Deutsch barrel connectors but these are much more affordable, and they require standard hand wiring tools,

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 18 2024, 09:04 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=15565 - that can always be done, sure - but I'm trying to not cut factory wiring. Not really sure why since I know I'm not going back. This isn't a concours car - heck, it was originally a 1.8 so it's not even the original engine.

Maybe you're right.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 18 2024, 09:12 AM

While these connectors have some good features, me no likey them for a weather-exposed, hot engine bay environment.

Heat and fluid contamination kills exposed wiring. A short section of the wires are exposed where they enter the connector housing and heat shrink on the harness, and each entering wire has no stress relief at the entry point. Its a vulnerable condition susceptible to wiring degradation.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 18 2024, 01:09 PM

Gotta disagree with this. Deutche connectors are 100% acceptable. This style of connector is widely used in automotive wiring by all OEM’s and has hundreds of milllions of miles proving out its durability and acceptability. I’m taking about all kinds of shaker table, laboratory, and real world on-road testing backed up by known warranty costs and field failure rates.

The individual wires ARE strain relieved by the pins. There is a crimp to establish electrical contact. Behind that crimp is a second set of “wings” that roll around the wire insulation - acting as a strain relief to the electrical crimp and supports the wire as it exits the connector body.

Trying to make an additional strain relief out of heat shrink causes nothing but endless trouble. The heat shrink “strain relief” then causes the pins to break or to be pulled on by the added weight of all the heat shrink on the wiring and results in pins being pulled out of the connector body at best or intermittent electrical connections which are the the worst since intermittent issues are terrible to troubleshoot.

When I did DoD work, we could not get this through the heads of some that just don’t understand automotive wiring, or those that don’t appreciate how much development, testing, and validation have gone into modern automotive wiring over the past 50 years. The defense company I worked for actually lost that contract due to the multitude of issues the program had related to wiring. 100% of which were self created by people that thought they were doing the right thing by adding “strain relief” and refused to understand how these connectors are designed to function.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 18 2024, 01:18 PM

Strain relief for individual pin circled in green.

the other style of Deutche cannon plug connector pin shown on right. These style pins have no strain relief but will be supported by the connector and/or a strain relief boot as it exits the multi-wire body (usually 25+ wires). These style “mil-spec” connectors are stupid expensive and still are not without their own problems.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 18 2024, 01:21 PM

Having said all that about modern wiring, to you for developing something to interface with our 50+ year old 914 wiring and ancient Molex style connections and simple spade terminals.

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 18 2024, 01:51 PM

Yeah - unfortunately, the OP on this thread hasn't logged in in 14 months...

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 18 2024, 02:02 PM

Doh - all the more reason to just go to a Deutche connector.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 19 2024, 07:22 AM

To clarify my concerns,

* No strain relief. Understood the strain relief provision at the point of the wire to the wire terminal which is concealed within the housing, no issue. The location of concern is where the wire to the free-hanging connector enters the housing. The connector design provides no strain relief here as does the boot on the D-Jet and L-jet harnesses. Movement of the wires over time as they deflect relative to the housing creates a fulcrum and stress concentration and ultimately a failure. Its a weakness of this connector design for long term durability in my experience.

* Exposed wires where the wires enter the housing. The housing design allows no provision to protect the short section of exposed wires from where the harness casing ends and where they enter the housing, from heat and fluid contamination in the engine bay as does the boot on the D-Jet and L-jet harnesses. Both of which will ultimately cause a failure in my experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQs7EPzDOak

These two failure modes are the majority of the engine bay wiring harness failures I see from examining thousands of older, worn out engine bay harnesses with presumably gazillions of billions of miles on them collectively (creative huh ) This Deutche style of connector provides a good sealed connection (although its a complicated multipart connector), but its interface with the wiring on the harness is not resolved for long term serviceability in a weather-exposed engine bay environment. If you ask me, I think there need something like a silicone boot between the connector housing and the harness cable.


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Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:01 AM

With all due respect, opinion doesn’t matter.

Thousands upon thousands of engineering man hours have been spent engineering wiring harness designs and automotive connectors to ensure high reliability. All the OEMs have their own laboratory facilities with vibration shaker tables and environmental test cells for proving out durability both at component and vehicle level. This isn’t guess work or opinion.

Typical 4 post shaker used to validate at whole vehicle level in addition to on-road durability testing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0tPGOYFIfw?si=H2FBd_t7E8Z7Iok3


Likewise there are independent third parties that are continually doing competitive teardowns and engineering analysis on all OEM’s designs. If there are better engineering designs that result in higher durability, you can be sure those designs will be further evaluated by the OEM’s and then propagated.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-98gpXbcrXU?si=j7wIYpHljAjXLBZ9


I’m going to post some under hood photos from four different OEMs varying across 20 years of production and with one vehicle that is 30+ years on-road and without issues related to wiring harness or this style of connectors. All these connections are exposed to high temps and potential fluid contamination.

I will also post a couple photos where a full boot is used as you propose. In the cases where a full boot is used, I’ll point out why it was used and the caveats that go with that execution.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:06 AM

1997 Toyota Camry

The Japanese have an incredible record of reliability and durability.

Note: fuel injectors wiring that is on backside of the engine and exposed to plenty of heat.

Note the alternator does have a plastic cap / boot over it to ensure that nothing is accidentally shorted to that high current terminal.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:11 AM

Oxygen sensor - wires potted in sensor but no boot or strain relief required.

Note: emissions systems are mandated to be warranted by OEM 10 years, 100k miles. Emissions systems are not places that OEMs scrimp on due to the warranty risk as well as risk of widespread compliance recalls.

Likewise, this is a very hot location.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:20 AM

2012 BMW - 148k miles
Note the varying use - standard connections on non-emissions, non safety components.

There is a boot used on the EGR cooler. An emissions related component. The throttle stepper motor also has a boot because the throttle motor is a safety component. When a boot like this is used, the wiring must be secured nearby to ensure the boot isn’t supporting the wiring which will tend to cause intermittent connectivity issues and/or pin pullout. The wiring for the throttle motor is secured at the locations of the orange arrows to help mitigate those risks.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:24 AM

2012 BMW ABS module - safety component

Gets a hard back shell due to tight bend radius on a large bundle of wires that could otherwise not make that bend without stressing the pins.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:26 AM

1992 Mazda B2600 - 178k miles

Distributor - no work, no go. You can be sure the Japanese would have used a more robust connector if it was necessary.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:31 AM

2009 Jeep Wranger. 90k miles.

Again - plastic cap used over alternator B+ for short protection



Lots of connectors including large multipin that use standard weather pack, Deutche type connectors.

These are all under hood but the same connectors are also used in the underbody in wet locations subject to water fording requirements

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:39 AM

These are just 4 random OEMs that happen to be sitting around. I’ll challenge anyone to go take a look under hood at their daily driver and see what is under hood and then ask yourself, how many failures have you had that were related to these types of automotive connectors.

Will there be someone that has had a failure? Without a doubt. However, there are in excess of 15 million cars sold annually with these types of connectors. A minuscule failure of 1 per 10,000 cars would be a HUGE issue that the industry would be forced to address. Fortunately the failure rate of these connectors is well below that level.

It used to be part of my day job to pour over 3rd party reliability data (JD power, Consumer Reports, other OEM warranty data) and competitive teardowns. What I can tell you is that wiring connector failure doesn’t even come into the top twenty problems.

Cut wiring due to improper repairs - yeah that happens. What rarely happens is having a connector fail of its own accord due to improper strain relief, excessive vibration causing wire fatigue, pin pullout, thermal degradation, etc.

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 19 2024, 11:50 AM

@http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showuser=104

No offense is meant by this post. I think the wiring you do and the service you provide to the community is unparalleled.

My only intent is to provide more background on how much development has gone into improving the degree of wiring reliability since our beloved 914s were built.

You do an awesome job of keeping these archaic cars on the road. In fact I wish more people would just break down and buy your harnesses. At this stage in their lifecycle, many 914s are so unreliable due to the state of their wiring and your harness work fixes that major problem.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 19 2024, 12:21 PM

It’s all good…your insight is valued here by all, including me. We all want these cars to last for generations into the future and when new solutions to the problems we encounter are better, they are worth considering. We can only consider them if we are aware of them.

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 19 2024, 12:32 PM

Agreed - and it's appreciated all the time that is taken to answer some of these questions. The 123 connection is important - i mean..aren't they all? But some are more equal than others.

I've already had one of these two friction-only connections come undone on its own but that was right after initial installation before I buttoned it all up. Still - I need a permanent solution. Input here is great.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jun 20 2024, 01:47 PM

Seems to be LOTS of replies to this thread, but no one seems to see the forest for the trees.

That connector is on the old D-Jet trigger points. It would seem that salvaging the connector off a junk set of trigger points would be a simple solution.

Or am I missing something here?????

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 20 2024, 04:13 PM

Correct - but it's molded funny, no? Strange angle...

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 21 2024, 06:38 AM

Seems reasonable . . . But

Pulling this connector off a set of triggger points, soldering 123 dizzy leads to it, and then having non-locking spade connections and rubber boot on this isn’t going to be anywhere near as robust as converting to a Deutche connector.

Posted by: ClayPerrine Jun 21 2024, 07:10 AM

I don't have a 123 distributor, but I could see taking it apart and adding this to the side of it instead of just having wires come out of it.

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 21 2024, 12:10 PM

Sent a note to these folks - we'll see if they have a solution
https://www.djetparts.com/?lang=en

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 21 2024, 01:53 PM

Honestly that isn’t a terrible idea . . . It’s sort of a shame how crude the 123 is with respect to how the wires exit the dizzy body.

Given 123’s aren’t cheap it would be wonderful to see them with a OEM style connection for those that don’t want to cut up their OEM wiring to use the 123. This would be true for other high end OEMs they support (jaguar, Aston, etc). I do have sympathy for them with respect to how much complexity this would add for them.

Not having one myself to look at, I’ve got to imagine it would be some careful mill work to even have the potential of being a modification that would work. And that’s assuming there is space inside and away from the electronics.

Nothing is ever easy!

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 22 2024, 10:09 AM

Just got this reply from d-jetparts (info@repro-parts.de)
====
Good morning Brian,

I am sorry, but I do not have any items to fit your idea.
Just got the „female“ plug in store.
I suggest a 3D printed part for this with inglued contacts.?!
Or do you want to buy a hundreds of these, so I could make a mould for this and start production?

Greetings.

Mit den besten Grüßen / best regards
Robert Eissler

Posted by: Superhawk996 Jun 22 2024, 11:47 AM

Forward to the 123 dizzy folks

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 22 2024, 02:29 PM

I am onto a possible solution, will post again when I have details.

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 23 2024, 10:07 AM

Very good, Jeff.
I just wonder what the dozens and dozens of people who have gotten these thru the multiple group buys here have done about this connection. Maybe just jamming them in the F connector is good enough and this is much ado about nothing. Just seems to me that it's yet another important connection (aren't they all, really?) that deserves better.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 23 2024, 02:44 PM

OK, I have found some factory parts that I think will work for this, adding some heat shrink to the exposed wires on the 123.

No modification needed to the FI harness or its connector, it will be plug N play.

Parts ordered, will post photos of the mock-up assembly when they arrive in about a week.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 23 2024, 02:51 PM

This has been an issue for some time.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=318153&st=124

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 26 2024, 09:53 PM

The parts I ordered arrived, see mockup below.

The new housing and male wire terminals are standard items and available.

The 3-pole male housing on all D-Jet FI harnesses for the trigger points, simply inserts into this new female housing with its retention clips, which will attach to the 123. The boot on the FI harness slips over the mating joint to make a relatively weathertight connection. Plug N Play.

I figure the 2 wires on the 123 could be individually wrapped with heat shrink for 2 inches where they enter the new housing on the side of the connection facing the 123, and then combined into a slightly larger single casing piece for the few inches the branch needs to get back into the 123. This casing provides protection from heat, fluids and added strain relief (in addition to the strain relief located at the terminals).

The metal fitting on the 123 where the two wires emanate, appears to be a compression fitting with a rubber gasket around the wires but someone please confirm. If that's true it may be possible to insert the outer casing under this compression nut (or possibly on the outside of it with a heat shrink collar) for a secure connection. To minimize fracturing this short branch at the compression fitting, maybe the branch gets wrapped in an outer stainless steel braided sleeve to up under that compression nut (or over it with a heat shrink collar) to make it more durable.

Comments?


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Posted by: fiacra Jun 26 2024, 10:40 PM

That looks like an elegant solution! I'm happy to bring you my NIB 123 distributor to try this out on if you don't already have one to play with.

Posted by: JeffBowlsby Jun 27 2024, 04:09 PM

Sounds good Broheen, contact me directly and we'll work something out.

Anyone else interested in this solution?

Posted by: gonzo54 Jun 27 2024, 04:37 PM

Jeff, when you come up with the tried and tested connector I would like to purchase one for my 123 Bluetooth

Thanks for your R&D

Posted by: FlacaProductions Jun 27 2024, 08:13 PM

THIS is what I was looking for!!

Posted by: Jim C Jun 28 2024, 06:37 AM

I'm interested.