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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Handling
Posted by: -P- Aug 7 2003, 03:28 PM
I'm ready to dive into improving the handling of my car. I will be 90% street driven, but by no means a daily driver so I dont care about ride quality. It's all about performance
Here is what I have planned so far:
- Weltmeister 19mm or 22mm Front bar (Can anyone let me know if I need the 22mm)
- PP 165lb rear springs
- Koni's all around, adjustable if I can get them.
- No rear sway
- New rims and tires, probably 5 lug fuchs with 195/60's on them.
Posted by: Lawrence914-6 Aug 7 2003, 03:37 PM
Once you're done: Align and corner balance.
-Rusty 
(has no idea what his spring rate is)
Posted by: Scott Carlberg Aug 7 2003, 05:04 PM
165lb rear springs? are those the Progressive springs?
Tires: 205/50-15
I WANT a front bar! 
Posted by: -P- Aug 7 2003, 06:14 PM
Tires: 205/50-15
I WANT a front bar!
Yeah, anyone have any experience with them?
Posted by: campbellcj Aug 7 2003, 07:38 PM
If you want to keep the ride fairly "civilized" but improve the performance over stock pretty dramatically, the 19mm front swaybar and 140lb rear springs are a good combo.
Definitely lower the car and get a -good- alignment.
Also of course the tire choice makes a HUGE difference.
Posted by: URY914 Aug 7 2003, 07:43 PM
Back when my car was a street car, the two items with the biggest effect was a front sway bar and wheels/tires. I agree, the 19 mm and 140 lb springs with 205's will be like night and day.
You won't believe the difference over a stock car.
Paul
Posted by: -P- Aug 7 2003, 07:47 PM
Does the front spring rate make that much of a difference? Everyone always seems to speak of the rears. I'll order the 19mm and 140lb rears. Thanks for the info guys. I only wish these damn riveria's would take something larger. This way I could keep the tires and swap when I do a 5 lug conversion w/fuchs, that is unless i get 16's. I can barely fit my pinky between the tire and fender. The offset seems all wrong.
Posted by: Rob Ways Aug 7 2003, 07:48 PM
I like a rear swaybar. I use them with 140 lb rear springs and they work great together. The front swaybar is a toss up. The bigger is a better choice for future use, but the ride is stiff. I'd also consider a weld in roll bar. Be sure to weld not bolt. The stiffness makes the car fun IMO.
You're doing the right thing- get lots of opinions and plan it the way that works for you.
Posted by: URY914 Aug 7 2003, 08:03 PM
cavwpguy,
Sorry to disagree but you are the first person ever to say run a rear bar and the front bar is a toss up. Your car must oversteer like crazy. Mine did when I ran front and a rear bars and I took the rear bar out. And now I can't give the thing away.
Front bar, no rear bar: no question.
Paul
Posted by: seanery Aug 7 2003, 08:07 PM
URY,
If you're giving it away, I'll take a rear bar! 
Posted by: redshift Aug 7 2003, 08:10 PM
I like big bars, Bilstein spo'ts, and rear bars.
I do like 'em! I really do!
I don't remember what spring I like, but it's not the ones I have...
M
Posted by: campbellcj Aug 7 2003, 08:11 PM
I actually ran a stock rear bar on my previous 914 (73 2.0) and found it pretty well balanced.
I had to pull the bar off my current car immediately, however, because I could not keep the inside rear tire on the ground. The main difference is a fairly tired stock 2.0 D-Jet engine, versus a significantly more powerful one and a significantly lightened and stiffened (caged) car.
I plan to do a bit of testing with the rear bar again, once the LSD is installed. But with a handful of exceptions, virtually nobody I've talked to runs rear swaybars on these cars, even with LSD's. The general rule seems to be to keep the front suspension as stiiff as possible and leave the rear relatively soft.
I still have some testing to do with rear springs too.
Posted by: Rob Ways Aug 7 2003, 11:19 PM
Sorry to disagree but you are the first person ever to say run a rear bar and the front bar is a toss up. Your car must oversteer like crazy. Mine did when I ran front and a rear bars and I took the rear bar out. And now I can't give the thing away.
Front bar, no rear bar: no question.
Paul
I should clarify. When I say the front bar is a toss up, I mean 19mm vs 22mm, not to be or not to be. The larger the better for performance but drivability becomes an issue. With the rear stock sway bar, I AX with it. Others in my class don't. I keep all four on the ground. Others don't. It's not all the rear swaybar, but I'm convinced it helps. If a person has one connected already, at least try it out. I heard often to get rid of it over and over, just like I heard that 19MM front sway bars were for AXs.
I've heard that with a Q diff or 165 lb springs and up, disconnect it like you say.
All this is just my experience so far. I also think a good roll bar cage, welded in, is worthwhile as well.
Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 7 2003, 11:24 PM
Sorry to disagree but you are the first person ever to say run a rear bar and the front bar is a toss up. Your car must oversteer like crazy. Mine did when I ran front and a rear bars and I took the rear bar out. And now I can't give the thing away.
You will quickly find that your 19mm is maxed out when you really start to drive the car. I ONLY recommend the 22 now. Its a waste of time buy the 19mm and end up with it set on full stiff 6 months after learning the car. Buy the 22mm and set it in the middle to start off. It will give you room to "adjust".
Paul, I have been driving CaVW's car for 4-5 days now... it is ROCK solid with this setup (I installed it).. I'm going with larger sway bars in the front to compensate for lack of torsion bars (CaVW has stock bars) Once we install a larger torsion bars.. my adjustability range changes... so start off with a larger bar (more range of adjustment) We really like the cars to be a little softer sprung and run a big front bar and a rear bar. You wont see Rob's car lifting a tire..ever.
B
Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 7 2003, 11:25 PM
Oh.. I need some adjustable drop links for Rob's rear bar.. this would give me even more adjustability to the suspension setup.
B
Posted by: Britain Smith Aug 8 2003, 12:28 AM
Dominic had some adjustable drop links for sale at the Carlsen swap meet.
-Britain
Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 8 2003, 12:38 AM
They where for a STOCK 914 front bar.
B
Posted by: Britain Smith Aug 8 2003, 01:01 AM
I do not remember...might have been for a weltimester.
-Britain
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 8 2003, 01:21 AM
I use'ta keep all 4 on the ground also. "Things" change.
Bruce has some video & pics for me.....from the last AX. Be nice and I'll share 
Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 8 2003, 01:29 AM
ULF still carrying a wheel ?? or did you type that wrong ??
B
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 8 2003, 01:39 AM
I'm told it still carries the wheel......but guys are prolly trying to psych me 
....wouldn't surprise me none, tho. It's got just about the right amount of oversteer. Maybe it looks like a WOO sprinter....sideways & waving
I'm hoping to get a good look from the pics/vids.
Posted by: Brad Roberts Aug 8 2003, 01:40 AM
Did you watch it when the other guy drove it ??
B
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 8 2003, 01:45 AM
2 other guys drove it.....but , nope, I was in the staging lanes directing traffic....the 9eleben guys love me talkin' drity at em ' in the staging lanes 
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 8 2003, 02:04 AM
Hay, I forgot to tell youz guys.
On the 16 & 17 the last SCCA AXs are running.
I'm 2 points down of that effin' 240Z for the FP crown.
I haven't beat him in the dry yet.....pray for rain . I can whip him like a dog in the street in the wet.
Posted by: URY914 Aug 8 2003, 05:11 AM
I stand corrected. 
It sounded from his post he wasn't running a front bar.
Paul
Posted by: Demick Aug 8 2003, 10:13 AM
Here are my recommendations:
Wheels: As long as you are planning to convert to 5 lug, and the car is 90+% street driven, get 16x6 wheels and put 205/50-16 or 205/55-16 tires on it. The car will handle great, and you will thank yourself every day you drive the car on the freeway and don't have to do 4000 rpm to keep up with traffic. They also look better. If you get serious about competing in autocross or track events, then you'll be getting a second set of wheels with sticky tires anyway - and for those you will want 205/50-15. This will end up giving you the best of both worlds.
If you autocross, I would recommend the 19mm front sway bar with 140 lb rear springs. I think this softer setup helps for autocross unless the surface at your venue is very smooth, grippy, and consistent (but most places aren't).
For track, you will want to go stiffer, like 22mm front sway bar and 180 lbs rear springs. You'll also want to beef up your front torsion bars. But I'm no track expert - there are better people to take advise from for track setups.
But for autocross or track, read the rule books first, and figure out where you want to run, and then begin making changes. If you don't, you will kick yourself later.
Just my .02
Demick
Posted by: -P- Aug 8 2003, 12:35 PM
Wheels: As long as you are planning to convert to 5 lug, and the car is 90+% street driven, get 16x6 wheels and put 205/50-16 or 205/55-16 tires on it. The car will handle great, and you will thank yourself every day you drive the car on the freeway and don't have to do 4000 rpm to keep up with traffic. They also look better. If you get serious about competing in autocross or track events, then you'll be getting a second set of wheels with sticky tires anyway - and for those you will want 205/50-15. This will end up giving you the best of both worlds.
If you autocross, I would recommend the 19mm front sway bar with 140 lb rear springs. I think this softer setup helps for autocross unless the surface at your venue is very smooth, grippy, and consistent (but most places aren't).
For track, you will want to go stiffer, like 22mm front sway bar and 180 lbs rear springs. You'll also want to beef up your front torsion bars. But I'm no track expert - there are better people to take advise from for track setups.
But for autocross or track, read the rule books first, and figure out where you want to run, and then begin making changes. If you don't, you will kick yourself later.
Just my .02
Demick
Good info, thanks for sharing.
Posted by: J P Stein Aug 8 2003, 02:42 PM
Got a look at the videos today. All 4 seem to be planted.....not that I really care. Our venues are rough. There has to be some compliance in the suspension...I worked hard at getting compliance out of the chassis.
My "winter project"(s) are gonna be revalving the skocks & maybe getting some weight off the car.....gotta weigh it first. Minimum weight is 2100 lbs for my class/engine size.
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