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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ porsche 6, or 914 4
Posted by: ModPR3 Feb 22 2006, 11:41 AM
i want to replace the engine in my 914 and am confussed by my choices. i thought of the subaru or chevy v8 conversion and i dont think thats for me. im looking at a rebuilt 2.4 6 conversion from motor meister or a built 4 motor of equal hp, which is 170 hp. jake at aircooledtechnology seems to be very busy so i was wondering if any of you knew how much a 914 type 4 motor would cost to build at that hp level.
Posted by: Mueller Feb 22 2006, 11:46 AM
the /4 will cost about the same as the /6 kit I'm guessing, give or take a couple grand depending on options.....
niether method will be cheap....
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 22 2006, 11:47 AM
Oh no....Here we go again! (Do a search on this)
Have you sent me an email, I am very busy as always but as of this morning have replied to all emails in all our in boxes.
A few months ago i changed my 914 engine program and posted the changes here, here is an excerpt from that post that should give you tons of info.
Now, keep in mind that with our new head developments these engines have both gained 15HP (the 2316 is now close to 200HP) and the price has not gone up at all from what I have posted here.
Okay... I finally finished it! I have made it as simple as I can! Here are TWO engine possibilities as standard units for 914 applications. Both are engines I have uesd as base engines for years to complete their custom derivatives and both have been assembled dozens of times, thoroughly tested and I know their tuning specs by heart- this is the ONLY way I was able to do these so standardized...... I'm not happy about making a turn back to the dark side and offering something that doesn't have all the best included, but I figure it may be time for something here to be easier and faster for a change since I forgot what thats like!
Now I will say that if you think these prices are too much- please keep your soup cooler shut! If you think that some rice burning engine can be done cheaper- you are right, but you can also keep your sewer closed and go fill the tank with rice and drive away... If you think you can install a cast iron slug in the car that came from Detroit cheaper- You are right as well, but you can also and of course if you think the Porsche six cylinder is magical and can be done cheaper than this, well go start another thread to argue that point- oh, and while you are in the process!!!These engines are offered for those who still appreciate the simplicity of the TIV and want to bolt an engine in their car that it came with, instead of using a torch, sawzall and welder to do the job...... Now to the serious things since I have effectively ruffled all the feathers of the die hard converts that will hate it when they get passed by this regular old TIV engine!!!
This is simple- You only have two choices- the rest are now all NLA, or available in engine kit form only. No more custom engines, and no options will be added that are not listed specifically.. I won't even make an exception for the Virgin Mary, or God himself!
All engines available as “Turn key” complete units- No long block assemblies available. My work is worthless unless I can tune it as it will be run in your car. All prices based on customer providing complete 2 liter core. The only price increase over the stated prices will be for cracked cases, or cases that require replacement, of for heads that are severely cracked, or that have been damaged by sloppy rebuilds. Those charges will not exceed 750.00, even in the worst case scenario.
All engines WILL BE built from the customer’s core that was sent to us. We have no “core bank” as those most of the time end up giving the customer someone else’s left over’s, that are not as good as their own. I build your engine from your core, right down to the sheet metal and case- any case is acceptable, from 1.7- 2.0, no matter the year. Core charge for customers that do not have a core is 1,000.00
All engines also come with powder coated engine tin, unless the customer opts for the 914 DTM.
So here it is.. Its what you all wanted - The first standardized engines I have offered since October of 2,000. Do not think that this engine is mass produced, or less than any other engine I have ever offered. What I have done is standardized the combination and assembly and even the options so 914 owners will know what my possibility engine cost. This particular engine is the exacting what Flat VW has in his 914, the original owner of that car, Brian Miller, loved the engine more so than driving his boxster! It’s reliable and needs no more maintenance than a stock engine and maintenance intervals are still the same as stock as well.
I will not be accepting orders for this engine until Mid January when my schedule is down to less than a 5 month wait.
The prices listed are the absolute least that they will ever be. I will retain these prices through March15th 2006 and then reassess the costs and update as necessary.
2056cc- NLA - Two versions available as engine kits (one for stock FI and one for programmable FI/ carbs)
2270cc “C” (earlier version of the “2270 Performer” prior to further development)
96X78.4mm
150BHP@ 6,000 RPM
160 lb/ft TQ @ 3,500 RPM
Engine redline @ 7,000 RPM
Fuel requirement- 91 octane
Induction- priced with new 44mm IDF carbs. Not compatible with Stock EFI. Programmable fuel injection, optional for this engine, based on stock plenum/runners or individual runner T/Bs for engines using the 914 DTM. Individual runners not available for this engine without the 914 DTM.
Note about carbs- If the customer has their own carbs, they will not be utilized- sell them on Ebay and I’ll include brand new ones! Carbs can create a variable in the pricing and that’s not a possibility. I also do not fancy used, old carbs that give me a fit on the dyno and need repairs. The engine is priced with New Webers and matching linkage.
Exhaust- Not included, works well with heater boxes and a Bursch or Triad and also with Kerry Hunter header or the Tangerine Racing header.
Cooling system- Stock 914 system included in base price- 914 DTM optional. Stock tins all powdercoated gloss black as standard equipment and all fasteners upgraded to stainless steel to prevent corrosion.
Ignition- priced with Mallory Uni-lite as standard equipment
Crankshaft- RAT 2036
Conn. Rods- Rat 3032 H Beam with TI small end
Camshaft and lifters- RAT 9502 cam with matching CONVENTIONAL lifters. Composite lifters are an option.
Flywheel- Customers unit resurfaced and balanced- Lightening optional
Pressure plate and clutch- New Sachs units. These must be included to facilitate proper and thoroughly indexed engine balancing. Keep in mind that this is NOT cheap and is normally never included in turnkey engine packages.
Cylinders and pistons- RAT 6312 kit with bored cylinders and KB pistons in 96mm. NICKIES NOT AN OPTION FOR THIS ENGINE
Cylinder heads- This can be done one of two ways. The price of the engine is not impacted by the route that is chosen.
If customer has 2.0 914 core with 2 Liter heads
- The 2.0 heads will be absolutely rebuilt and ported (stage1 street) to our specs. Spark plug holes will be welded to receive 12mm spark plugs if any chambers are found to be cracked. Heads upgraded to dual valve springs with our SI valve upgrade. Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install- 2.0 914 heads are the only heads we rebuild and if they were available new ewe would not even rebuild them.
If customer has a 1.7/ 1.8 engine with 1.7/1.8 heads
- New cylinder head castings will be utilized and taken to our Rat 7436 combination. These heads have the same flow characteristics as the 2.0 cylinder heads, but feature the standard 1.7/1.8 spark plug location, so the customer’s sheet metal will still be correct. These heads feature similar performance to an engine with the 2.0 914 OEM castings - 5% on average due to the spark plug location and chamber differences. These heads are fully ported and feature all upgraded seats, valves, dual springs and etc as the 2.0 casting heads. We basically rebuild a brand new head and then Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install. These heads being brand new are a huge plus for reliability/longevity and are worth the slight power loss if you have a 1.7/1.8 core engine. I do not rebuild any heads other than the 2.0 heads because they are so rare and NLA new.
The price of the engine will not be impacted by which route you go- This is because the rebuilt heads take the same amount of labor to rebuild as the new heads cost us to purchase- This further simplifies pricing as well.
Valve train- Manton chromoly pushrods, 1.7 rockers modified for REAL 911 adjusters, heavy duty 8mm rocker studs and solid rocker spacers are standard equipment as well. This makes for a valve train that is “over built” for this engine, and that’s a VERY good thing… and it’s a standard here.
Labor/ processes-
-Standard stroker assembly= Rat engine manual not included nor available, engine spec sheet included only. Engine receives street level assembly tolerances only.(4,000 Labor value)
- Balancing= Intermediate balance included .05 Oz.In. Tolerance. (175.00 VALUE) (Race balance not available)
- Dyno tuning= Standard dyno session only (500.00 Value). A total of 4 hours allotted for complete process for carbureted engines. This will include a minimum of one power pull and a dyno graph will be supplied with the engine. (EFI equipped engines have their extra dyno time added into the cost of the EFI arrangement)
Price of standard engine, as specified above= 9,850.00 (1K of that is carbs alone)
Optional items- These prices are UPGRADES meaning the cost is on top of the proposed prices.
Ceramic lifters+ 600.00
Lightened flywheel+ 125.00
914 DTM+ 1250.00
Programmable EFI+ 2,800 (full kit, all you buy is hoses and fittings to install and price includes dyno tuning)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------end of engine choice 1
2316cc “B mod”
96X80mm
170BHP@ 6,500 RPM
170 lb/ft TQ @ 4,000 RPM
Engine redline @ 7,300 RPM
Fuel requirement- 91 octane
Induction- priced with new 44mm IDF carbs. Not compatible with Stock EFI. Programmable fuel injection, optional for this engine, based on stock plenum/runners or individual runner T/Bs for engines using the 914 DTM. Individual runners not available for this engine without the 914 DTM.
Note about carbs- If the customer has their own carbs, they will not be utilized- sell them on Ebay and I’ll include brand new ones! Carbs can create a variable in the pricing and that’s not a possibility. I also do not fancy used, old carbs that give me a fit on the dyno and need repairs. The engine is priced with New Webers and matching linkage.
Exhaust- Not included, HEATER BOXES NOT COMPATIBLE Kerry Hunter header or the Tangerine Racing header required. Euro race header is not adequate for this engine, nor is the triad or Bursch
Cooling system- Stock 914 system included in base price- 914 DTM optional. Stock tins all powdercoated gloss black as standard equipment and all fasteners upgraded to stainless steel to prevent corrosion.
Ignition- priced with Mallory Uni-lite as standard equipment
Crankshaft- RAT 2040
Conn. Rods- Rat 3038 H Beam with TI small end
Camshaft and lifters- RAT 9520 cam with matching CONVENTIONAL lifters. Composite lifters are an option.
Flywheel- Customers unit resurfaced and balanced- Lightening optional
Pressure plate and clutch- New Sachs pressure plate with Gold series 6 puck clutch disc to hold the added power from this beastly engine. These must be included to facilitate proper and thoroughly indexed engine balancing. Keep in mind that this is NOT cheap and is normally never included in turnkey engine packages.
Cylinders and pistons- RAT 6312 kit with bored cylinders and KB pistons in 96mm. NICKIES NOT AN OPTION FOR THIS ENGINE. Forged JE pistons optional for engines that see more track time than street time.
Cylinder heads- This can be done one of two ways. The price of the engine is not impacted by the route that is chosen.
If customer has 2.0 914 core with 2 Liter heads
- The 2.0 heads will be absolutely rebuilt and ported (stage2 street) to our specs. Spark plug holes will be welded to receive 12mm spark plugs if any chambers are found to be cracked. Heads upgraded to dual valve springs with our SI valve upgrade. Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install- 2.0 914 heads are the only heads we rebuild and if they were available new ewe would not even rebuild them.
If customer has a 1.7/ 1.8 engine with 1.7/1.8 heads
- New cylinder head castings will be utilized and taken to our Rat 7442 combination. These heads have the same flow characteristics as the 2.0 cylinder heads, but feature the standard 1.7/1.8 spark plug location, so the customer’s sheet metal will still be correct. These heads feature similar performance to an engine with the 2.0 914 OEM castings - 5% on average due to the spark plug location and chamber differences. These heads are fully ported and feature all upgraded seats, valves, dual springs and etc as the 2.0 casting heads. We basically rebuild a brand new head and then Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install. These heads being brand new are a huge plus for reliability/longevity and are worth the slight power loss if you have a 1.7/1.8 core engine. I do not rebuild any heads other than the 2.0 heads because they are so rare and NLA new.
The price of the engine will not be impacted by which route you go- This is because the rebuilt heads take the same amount of labor to rebuild as the new heads cost us to purchase- This further simplifies pricing as well.
Valve train- Manton chromoly pushrods, 1.7 rockers modified for REAL 911 adjusters, heavy duty 8mm rocker studs and solid rocker spacers are standard equipment as well. This makes for a valve train that is “over built” for this engine, and that’s a VERY good thing… and it’s a standard here.
Labor/ processes-
-Standard stroker assembly= Rat engine manual not included nor available, engine spec sheet included only. Engine receives street level assembly tolerances only.(4,000 Labor value)
- Balancing= Intermediate balance included .05 Oz.In. Tolerance. (175.00 VALUE) (Race balance not available)
- Dyno tuning= Standard dyno session only (500.00 Value). A total of 4 hours allotted for complete process for carbureted engines. This will include a minimum of one power pull and a dyno graph will be supplied with the engine. (EFI equipped engines have their extra dyno time added into the cost of the EFI arrangement)
Price of standard engine, as specified above= 10,400.00 (1K of that is carbs alone)
Optional items- These prices are UPGRADES meaning the cost is on top of the proposed prices.
JE Forged pistons+ 434.00 (track engines only)
Ceramic lifters+ 600.00
Lightened flywheel+ 125.00
914 DTM+ 1250.00
Programmable EFI+ 2,800 (full kit, all you buy is hoses and fittings to install and price includes dyno tuning)
2563cc- NLA for 914 applications as complete engine-one version available as engine kit
All engine’s in Super hero classification- NLA for 914 applications.
Posted by: TROJANMAN Feb 22 2006, 11:48 AM
this infomercial has been brought to you by Jake Raby 
i'll bump my motor meister thread for you from yesterday. 
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 22 2006, 11:51 AM
The kit option has been a great one for the guys that don't desire having an engine with my name on it enough to wait around for 7+ months and pay for my labor and dyno work.
There are several authorized assemblers of these kits now, DTM engineering, our own Mark D and many more that have proven they can do a great job and satisfy the customer.
Trojan,
I figured I'd help keep this thread as painless as possible without going over the same pricing crap as always...... That post pretty much said it all.
Posted by: spare time toys Feb 22 2006, 11:51 AM
| QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 22 2006, 12:41 PM) |
| im looking at a rebuilt 2.4 6 conversion from motor meister |
NNNOOOOO Lokk here and bird board about them. Dont do that to your car 
Posted by: Headrage Feb 22 2006, 11:54 AM
I say go with the /6 but find one from a different builder.
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 22 2006, 11:55 AM
I would suggest looking into the route of a used 6. I spent a lot of time considering both T4 and 6 options.
I reviewed options from Jake and other T4 builders. T4 gets real expensive once you go beyond mild stock rebuild. Once the engine grows, your into new fuel sytems, oil coolers, etc.
Buying a used six made the most sense for me. I shopped forever for the engine until a deal presented itself. The car will be worth more with a six and at the end of the day you will have spent similar amounts of money. I should have my six conversion completed soon and current estimates put it at about $6000 which includes the engine, all conversion parts and professional install.
Posted by: TROJANMAN Feb 22 2006, 11:57 AM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 22 2006, 09:51 AM) |
| Trojan, I figured I'd help keep this thread as painless as possible without going over the same pricing crap as always...... That post pretty much said it all. |
i was just busting your chops.
Posted by: jim912928 Feb 22 2006, 12:04 PM
think 3.2L carrera engine with motronic!
Posted by: URY914 Feb 22 2006, 12:42 PM
![popcorn[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)
(I always wanted to use that smiliey)
P 
Posted by: ken914 Feb 22 2006, 01:34 PM
Convert to a /6.
IF the price was the same for the big 4 versus making a six conversion I would go with the six.
BUT, lets look at what happens when that engine handgrenades. If the big 4 handgrendes (no fault of Jake, say you missed a shift) you start over at another full price engine. If the 6 self destructs (again, no fault of Jake) you have the engine replacement cost, so you buy another used engine and you are going again.
Now look at what happens when you want to sell your car to fund your wife, child, other addiction or etc. You sell a big 4 cylinder car with 20,000 on the engine and it is just a 4 cylinder car with an unknown engine. You sell your /6 with 20,000 on the engine and it is a /6 ALL DAY LONG.
Lastly, what happens when you are no longer content with 170 or 200 HP. You are pretty much out of luck with a 4 cylinder but with a 6 conversion you have a lot of options.
Just from the costs (build, maintain, sell) alone I would convert to a 6, but a /6 is also such a sweet engine.
Jake, no offense to you intended. You have done amazing work with the 4 cylinders.
Best of luck.
Posted by: ken914 Feb 22 2006, 01:36 PM
Oh, one more thing. Rather than do the conversion you would probably be better off selling you car and just buying the car you want!
Posted by: jetboy Feb 22 2006, 01:36 PM
I also think i remember Jake saying that his engines will no longer come with carbs. This means the extra 2,800 for the EFI. Just in case your crunching the price differences.
Posted by: rick 918-S Feb 22 2006, 01:59 PM
You could always have a Porsche V8... 
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 22 2006, 02:04 PM
I wrote a big, long post and the power flashed and I lost it!
Anyway, the carbs are still an option.. Believe it or not when Weber moved production to North Carolina from Spain the quality went back up as well as availability..
Carbs are optional.
170HP can come in 6 boxes ready to be assembled for less than 5K bucks- don't forget that.
Posted by: jetboy Feb 22 2006, 02:30 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 22 2006, 12:04 PM) |
| Anyway, the carbs are still an option.. Believe it or not when Weber moved production to North Carolina from Spain the quality went back up as well as availability.. Carbs are optional. 170HP can come in 6 boxes ready to be assembled for less than 5K bucks- don't forget that. |
And once again i start crunching numbers... damm you jake!
Posted by: trekkor Feb 22 2006, 02:55 PM
I love this
I'll repeat what some said with my own little twist. 
You can do a nice small SIX conversion for about the same price as a stock FOUR re-build. ( $ 4-6k )
You can have a back-up used SIX in the shed and still be money ahead over a mid sized FOUR build. ( $10k )
If you want to go BIG, the 3.6 conversion is still cheaper than a MassIVe FOUR. ( do a search )
I'll only run a FOUR if:
I buy another car with no motor or my SIX blows up.
I have my old 2.0 and I would use it until I found another SIX.
It's that good.
KT
Posted by: MW 914 Feb 22 2006, 03:01 PM
| QUOTE (jim912928 @ Feb 22 2006, 10:04 AM) |
| think 3.2L carrera engine with motronic! |
I couldn't agree more!
Posted by: Root_Werks Feb 22 2006, 03:14 PM
| QUOTE (ken914 @ Feb 22 2006, 11:36 AM) |
| Oh, one more thing. Rather than do the conversion you would probably be better off selling you car and just buying the car you want! |
Posted by: tdgray Feb 22 2006, 03:14 PM
Hang on Hang on... all you sixer fans.
You guys are throwing around the "6" pricing really liberally but you are squaring off on Jake's pricing pretty closely. 4K, 6K, 10K - on a 6. OK but there are alot of options in there too.
IIRC Jake's bottom end (2056?) kit goes for like 3K? Then up to about 5K for the middle of the road.
Where's the huge difference 
. Either will need "extras".
So you buy a used 6 - what happens when it takes a crap on you two months down the road. Same boat.
You buy a kit from Jake and do it correctly, you gotta brand new engine with all the reliability etc.
I'm just not buying into the 6 arguement. It just seems to much like a penis extension.
Posted by: Mueller Feb 22 2006, 03:15 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 22 2006, 01:55 PM) |
| If you want to go BIG, the 3.6 conversion is still cheaper than a MassIVe FOUR. ( do a search ) |
please find me a 3.6 for $5K which is what Jake quoted above for a 170hp package
Posted by: ModPR3 Feb 22 2006, 03:18 PM
ok guys thanks for the advice youve been a great help. i think im going to go with the 6 so im going to start my researching. so i now know i want the 6 now which one. i was thinking the 2.4, 2.7, or 3.0 with the 3.0 most likely tapping me out of all my savings and future income for awhile. any advice on the differences of these engines regarding: avalability, price, finding parts, and expense would be great. im going to run alot more searches but any added info would be great. i ran some searches on motormeister and im definitley not going with them even if only half i read was true. im going to post on an older post i found and bring it back up regarding reputable rebuilders in my area which is southern ca. thanks again for the help
Posted by: tdgray Feb 22 2006, 03:19 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 22 2006, 05:15 PM) | ||
please find me a 3.6 for $5K which is what Jake quoted above for a 170hp package |
My point exactly.
You want the big 6 HP you gonna pay the big 6 price.
You want little 6 HP, sure your gonna spend less but it will still be a used engine.
Posted by: Mueller Feb 22 2006, 03:29 PM
| QUOTE (ModPR3 @ Feb 22 2006, 02:18 PM) |
| ok guys thanks for the advice youve been a great help. i think im going to go with the 6 so im going to start my researching. so i now know i want the 6 now which one. i was thinking the 2.4, 2.7, or 3.0 with the 3.0 most likely tapping me out of all my savings and future income for awhile. any advice on the differences of these engines regarding: avalability, price, finding parts, and expense would be great. im going to run alot more searches but any added info would be great. i ran some searches on motormeister and im definitley not going with them even if only half i read was true. im going to post on an older post i found and bring it back up regarding reputable rebuilders in my area which is southern ca. thanks again for the help |
pick up the phone and call a few of those places to get a ballpark figure for doing a proper rebuild on any 3 of those size engines.....make sure you are sitting down
old used engines, you might get lucky and find one that won't need a rebuild or find one that has been rebuilt not too long ago....it's not going to be cheap..what is your "real" budget?
$4K ?
$6K ?
$10K ?
Posted by: ModPR3 Feb 22 2006, 03:43 PM
ahhhhh....lol... now you guys got me second guessing myself... .. its ok though thats what makes this so fun. on the first note i dont want to just go out and buy the car with the 6 already in it because i would like the experience of building my own. as far as budget. i still have to decide this. if im going to go for very good rebuilt 6 i would be willing to dish out 8k. as for jakes 4 with the reputation he has and his great posting to my questions ( thank you jake) i would also be prepared to spend that much. if i get greedy for cheep power, i assume i can do a v8 swap for under 6k.
quick question for all my fellow 914 fans. im going to be using the car for the street and autocrossing i dont care about beating the guy next to me in his tricked out honda. plus im not a fan of street racing. how much power do i need i would like more power than i have now but i dont know how much. what do all of you think of your current configurations and with the use i want for my car what power would be aceptable. i do realize this all comes down to my personal preference but i could really use some advice. i mean ive ridden in a ford lightning and that had about 360hp and over 450tq it was fun but is it really necessary or worth the extra money in gas..lol...any input would be greatly appriciated. thanks again for all the help.
Posted by: Mueller Feb 22 2006, 03:48 PM
nobody "needs" a 400hp V8 car
it's what you want......
my tired 1.8 914 can be just as much fun as my 3.6 911 depending on the road and conditions.... 
would I like the same 3.6 in my 914??? he// yes, but don't have the money and I like the simple /4 motors...
the worse thing (or best thing depending on your outlook) is to go for ride or drive a high horsepower 914, cause you'll get hooked and want it for yourself
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 22 2006, 03:49 PM
The V-8 swap makes the most sense to me- by far. If you are gonna cut and weld and ruin the car- you might as well do the best damn job possible!
At least it's cheap!
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 22 2006, 03:55 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 22 2006, 02:48 PM) |
| The worse thing (or best thing depending on your outlook) is to go for ride or drive a high horsepower 914, cause you'll get hooked and want it for yourself |
yup
john
Posted by: MW 914 Feb 22 2006, 04:25 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 22 2006, 01:48 PM) |
| the worse thing (or best thing depending on your outlook) is to go for ride or drive a high horsepower 914, cause you'll get hooked and want it for yourself |
I took one ride in Ferg's(moment of silence) car. Now my checkbook is soon to be empty.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 22 2006, 07:55 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Feb 22 2006, 01:15 PM) | ||
please find me a 3.6 for $5K which is what Jake quoted above for a 170hp package |
You misunderstood me.
If you want the most powerful of the FOUR's ( going BIG
)You will have to pay somewhere north of $15k. We've even seen the $22k price quoted here for the, "all the bells and whistles", MassIVe™ FOUR.
A 3.6 will run between $7-10k, plus the $2-4k in conversion parts. I said to do a search...It's no secret
I have no plans to ever rebuild my motor when it scatters.
Cheap, used, running SIXES are everywhere. ( For the price of a rebuilt stock 2.0 FOUR...Kit )
Just stating my perception of the facts.
You will have to decide for yourself.
KT
Posted by: trekkor Feb 22 2006, 08:04 PM
And... the $5k for 170hp is a KIT.
Turn key is $10k, unless I'm missing something
KT
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 22 2006, 08:15 PM
Trekkor is correct- 5K is a kit, unassembled but ready to assemble.
The 22K engine had EVERY option known to man, including stuff it did not need.
Posted by: 9146986 Feb 22 2006, 08:26 PM
| QUOTE (Root_Werks @ Feb 22 2006, 01:14 PM) | ||
|
I built a project car a few years ago that ultimately topped out at around $50k, and three years later sold for $20k less, and was still an awesome car. Granted this isn't a realistic budget for most of us, the point is you could probably find a real nice 6 conversion car, ready to rock, for $20k. And if you are patient and lucky you could probably find a good deal on a great car for $12k.
Trekkor, what's my line here.........??????
Nothing against RAT at all. Jake is doing some very cool work. I'm just a 914'er that has always had an obsession with six cylinder engines.
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 22 2006, 08:58 PM
| QUOTE |
| Nothing against RAT at all. Jake is doing some very cool work. I'm just a 914'er that has always had an obsession with six cylinder engines. |
No worries.... The mass of my work has not been the 914 for some years now. I'm happy when we have teeners that think like we do, BUT those are not abundant. As the cost my my engines escolated with the development and power potential the teener guys grew less and less and that was expected.
The cars we primarily work with these days are Beetles and 356s, the cars that REALLY benefit from the TIV engine all while keeping their aircooled heritage, and thats where 90% of our emphesis has been for the last 5 years or so...
Posted by: ppickerell Feb 22 2006, 09:15 PM
It's funny that the vast majority of people that advise: "Buy a car already built" are all poor bastards who built their own!
Given that, my experience says to consider finding a 5 lug conversion 6 with a 915 already built. I have seen some great deals at less than 20K.
ask me how I know 
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 22 2006, 09:25 PM
I think one just has to drive one of these "rodded-up" fours, because they are a gas...
The torque is smooth and seems so constant.
It will rev out to 7,000 rpm, but I almost never take it there as there is more usable torque in just shifting up.
Even through SS heat exchangers and a Dansk "hot dog" muffler that I have blown the horizontal seam apart on, it's got a unique sound to it, like 1/2 a SBC when including the induction noise.
The smmooottthhhhhnnnneeeesssssssss is remarkable.
John
P.S. I do sometimes wonder what this engine would be like with a turbo?
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 22 2006, 09:31 PM
The Turbo version is designed and the blueprints are done....
It's modeled at 225HP @ 10 PSI boost.
Its just a matter of the dyno proving before it's released, and of course the completion of my EFI/ Intercooled/Turbo kit...
As soon as the "Mighty Spyder" is out of my hair I'm wide ass open on finishing this!
Posted by: Flat VW Feb 22 2006, 09:41 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 22 2006, 08:31 PM) |
| The Turbo version is designed and the blueprints are done.... It's modeled at 225HP @ 10 PSI boost. Its just a matter of the dyno proving before it's released, and of course the completion of my EFI/ Intercooled/Turbo kit... |
My pal you spoke to Jake, his name is Doug, he has run turbo charged Type VI powered sand rails for many years.
The first thing he said when he saw my car was "turbo it".
John
P.S. One of 'Doug's Credos' is "DO NOT de-accelerate this engine, that is what the brakes are for."
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 22 2006, 10:23 PM
Correctly Turbo charging the TIV engine requires out thinking the factory engineers and overcoming some of their dumb mistakes...
Its not quite as simple as just bolting on the Turbo.
To Turbo the engine you have now it would effectively take a total redesign from top to bottom.
Posted by: brokenmoped Feb 24 2006, 01:58 AM
Jake -
That turbo kit still going to be $5500 for everything or are we going to expect a price jump? ::Crosses fingers::
-C
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 24 2006, 08:12 AM
Pricing has not changed for the "kit"...
The 5.5K buys MUCH more than a Turbo and some headers- it's everything to drop on top of the engine!
*914 DTM- Full kit
*T-3 Turbo (T-3/ T/4 Hybrid optional for guys that can handle big boost)
*Turbo headers- Full kit
*RAT EFI (individual runner T/B)with direct fire ignition including trigger mount and sensors already installed- Full kit
*Intercooler standard with the Hybrid arrangement
All sold as an engineered assembly ONLY- NO individual parts!
All you do is rip out the engine, rip off the tin and replace everything with what I give you.
So far we have gotten a tad over 150 HP from a 100% bone stock, 75K mile 2.0 test engine with this arrangement and that was only at 8 PSI boost. With some compressor changes this is sure to increase. That was on the second try!
As soon as I finish the Mighty Spyder project I'll be full bore on this through the end of the year.
Posted by: Dead Air Feb 24 2006, 08:12 AM
Two questions for Jake just to stur the soup a little.
Have you thought about working on any of the Corvair motors?
Are they type 4's with 2 pistons added? I know Airplane homebuilders would be all over something like that.
Are you concerned about running out of type 4 cores or chassis available? For exaple...
I haven't seen any threads lately about putting type 4's into a Subaru...
Just wondering.
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 24 2006, 08:24 AM
| QUOTE |
| Have you thought about working on any of the Corvair motors? |
The Corvair is the ONLY aircooled engine I have no desire to further my experience with- they are a lame effort by an American company to make something that can live without a radiator. I have worked on aircooled engines from Lycoming, Continental, Franklin, VW, Porsche(4 cam 547 through the 3.0-911) Pinzgauer and Puch- Out of all those the Corvair was the most screwed up of any! (I only lack building a Tatra engine to be complete)
| QUOTE |
| Are you concerned about running out of type 4 cores or chassis available? For exaple... |
Nope... By the time the supply dries up our wonderful government will more than likely have already banned gasoline engines- Or I'll be too old to care. At my present rate of consumption I have enough cores in my pile to last me for 17 years of future production and I just found 100 more in Florida that are being delivered next week.
Plus, I also do work on 4 cams and 356 engines as well. If the market won't support my efforts, or we run out of cores I'll go back to working on Turbine engines- I am still proficient with Safety Wire.
| QUOTE |
| I haven't seen any threads lately about putting type 4's into a Subaru... Just wondering. |
No you aren't- You are trying to start trouble and trying to piss me off first thing in the morning.
| QUOTE |
| Two questions for Jake just to stur the soup a little. |
You did that. This post is about a -4 or a -6 and I don't know why EVERY time these posts come up that I get dragged into them as seemingly the ONLY 4 cylinder builder!
Why the hell doesn't a 6 cylinder builder come here to stand their ground?
Posted by: Dead Air Feb 24 2006, 08:37 AM
Sorry, really!!
I just think it's weird that so many people come here and they don't really like the 914. They'd rather have a Boxter, or an Elise or something like an MR2. So they hack and weld until it's not a 914 anymore. $4000-15,000 for a kick ass motor that drops right in?
"End of discussion" Ya know what I mean?
just my .02.
(I still need to get some parts from you Jake, No offense intended)
Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 24 2006, 09:04 AM
I'm not really taking any sides, but I think comparing one of Jake's KITS to the price of converting to a 6 is more accurate...
for the person of average mechanical skills would you rather:
A) assemble a type 4 with a kit jake put together, and have jake on hotline to help you over the phone...
or convert to a 6, do the nessecary homework, find an engine and have it at the very least inspected by a good -6 mechanic, and figure out the rest for your self?
what -6 conversion can you do for 5 large? will you get 170 hp? will it take you less time to assemble an engine? or do a -6 conversion?
myself, I would have a tough choice, but lean towards the IV....
if we're saying a jake built 200+ hp turnkey for 10k, I may lean the other direction... 3.2 or 3.0... IMO part of the reason you would go with a 10k jake-built is if you do not want to mess with all the stuff needed for a -6... you paid someone to do all the WORK for you, instead of doing it yourself... I like to do some work myself with anything(only way a dumbass like myself can learn)
Jake's engines are not un-reasonably priced... price a custom built chevy crate engine... an engine I firmly believe anyone can rebuild, and the parts are easily found and cheaper... and the prices are still in the same range...
so, to the person who wrote started the thread: it comes down to how much work do you want to do, how much hp you want to end with, and how much $$$ do you have to spend...
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 24 2006, 09:09 AM
| QUOTE |
| I just think it's weird that so many people come here and they don't really like the 914. |
I absolutely agree....
Making a car into something it never was by drastic measures is not too smart to me either.
I own and drive a 914 for the same reason I do the same with my 912, all of my VWs and my Pinzgauer.
I think more people here should buy a Fiero...
But all the cars getting hacked up, make the cars that are not- worth more money everyday. One day that will matter and the guys who were the smart ones will be on top.
A good example is a 1954 Chevy Pick up that my dad bought new in 1954.... The truck remained (and still does) 100% stock all through the 60's and 70's when the big rage was dropping a set of Crager wheels and a small block V8 into the truck. His little truck was worth nothing then, but now he gets insane offers for it as it jujst sits in the yard 100% stock because all the hackers ruined the other trucks!
Posted by: JmuRiz Feb 24 2006, 02:21 PM
Can't wait till the Mighty Spyder is completed...
To look at what that wild engine does AND to further the 914 turbo development. I've gone back and forth in my head a zillion times on what engine...and I think the turbo 4 is the way to go (for me).
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 24 2006, 02:38 PM
The Mighty Spyder is coming along nicely... The short block is done and the stage is set for a 260HP, 9,000 RPM normally asperated, Titanium rodded, twin plugged, direct fired, EFI'd beast to live! (it's sub 2400cc!)
He came by Tuesday to check it out- all the way from London!
The car is all finished, except he has to make a dry sump tank for it... It's a shame but he ended up having the body painted!
It'll be on the dyno in two weeks.
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 24 2006, 05:05 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 24 2006, 07:09 AM) | ||
I absolutely agree.... Making a car into something it never was by drastic measures is not too smart to me either. I own and drive a 914 for the same reason I do the same with my 912, all of my VWs and my Pinzgauer. I think more people here should buy a Fiero... But all the cars getting hacked up, make the cars that are not- worth more money everyday. One day that will matter and the guys who were the smart ones will be on top. A good example is a 1954 Chevy Pick up that my dad bought new in 1954.... The truck remained (and still does) 100% stock all through the 60's and 70's when the big rage was dropping a set of Crager wheels and a small block V8 into the truck. His little truck was worth nothing then, but now he gets insane offers for it as it jujst sits in the yard 100% stock because all the hackers ruined the other trucks! |
Jake, When you talk about six conversion you always talk about hacking up the car. What are you refering to? Having seen plenty of 914-6s I have seen very few that are "hacked". Aside from mounting an oil tank what hacking do you think is happening when somone converts to a six?
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 24 2006, 07:07 PM
| QUOTE |
| in fact the more I think about it the 914's I see sporting Raby engines seem to be bigger hack jobs than many of the well done 6 conversions |
Well..I don't do installations, nor do I work on vehicles... I provide an engine that is ready to be BOLTED into the car, what happens after that is out of my control.
Nothing needs to be cut, or welded, or fabbed at all.
Which cars have you personally seen that had my engines installed? Keep in mind that not every car that is advertised or "Said" to have my engine has it- only those with serial numbers that match my records do and there are aalot of imposters out there!
Most people that spend the money to buy my engine do very detailed installs.
Posted by: TonyAKAVW Feb 24 2006, 07:59 PM
| QUOTE |
| But all the cars getting hacked up, make the cars that are not- worth more money everyday. One day that will matter and the guys who were the smart ones will be on top. |
This is assuming people who modify their 914s actually care about resale value. I think in many people's minds, resale value or collector value is at the bottom of their list of priorities with a 914.
| QUOTE |
I think more people here should buy a Fiero... |
Whats wrong with modifying a cheap car to be a high performance car? The 914 is not really a high performance car by today's standards in its original trim. Not that its intended to be, but many many people feel there is nothing wrong with making a project out of a 914. They are cheap, smog exempt, light weight, mid-engine, and interesting looking. Fieros are not. Neither are MR2s, etc. Not everyone sees the appeal of driving a piece of pure nostalgia. There's nothing wrong with that, but its not everyone's desire.
-Tony
Posted by: trekkor Feb 24 2006, 10:33 PM
My "hacked" 914 is by far, my favorite car I have ever owned.
It was really fun as a FOUR.
Now I can't see it without the SIX. 
I'll throw this out to the crowd:
Anybody *EVER* do a SIX conversion, not like it and go back to a FOUR? Serious question...
KT
Posted by: ModPR3 Feb 25 2006, 03:24 AM
| QUOTE (Dead Air @ Feb 24 2006, 06:37 AM) |
| I just think it's weird that so many people come here and they don't really like the 914. They'd rather have a Boxter, or an Elise or something like an MR2. |
I love the 914, but i dont think there is anything wrong with improving on a great chassis. some times cars are just more fun with more power, some times cars are more fun all origional to be enjoyed like a fine piece of art. shelby made a fortune and now one of the most replicated cars known by taking a little sports car made by ac and dropping a american v8 and made a awesome car we know as the shelby cobra. i can see from all sides of everyone and most of you have good points. i just dont think anyone should say that there way is the only way it should be done. like the saying go whatever floats your boat. just my 2 cents.
Posted by: 9146986 Feb 25 2006, 06:33 AM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 24 2006, 08:33 PM) |
| Anybody *EVER* do a SIX conversion, not like it and go back to a FOUR? |
Hey Trekkor, that's my line!
Posted by: DNHunt Feb 25 2006, 09:55 AM
This discussion always cracks me up. The car was designed for both engines. We have a choice and there isn't a wrong answer.
I stayed with a four cause that's the way the car came. I kept the numbers matching engine and I can have it back in in a weekend. That seemed like the right thing for me to do but if I hadn't had that motor I might have decided on a 6 conversion. In a perfect world I'd have 1 of each but, a six would cost me a wife and that's an easy choice.
By the way, the engine kit I got from Jake makes the car, the car it should have been from the factory. It's easy to drive around town and plenty quick.
Dave
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 10:05 AM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 24 2006, 05:07 PM) | ||
Well..I don't do installations, nor do I work on vehicles... I provide an engine that is ready to be BOLTED into the car, what happens after that is out of my control. Nothing needs to be cut, or welded, or fabbed at all. Which cars have you personally seen that had my engines installed? Keep in mind that not every car that is advertised or "Said" to have my engine has it- only those with serial numbers that match my records do and there are aalot of imposters out there! Most people that spend the money to buy my engine do very detailed installs. |
Any MASSIVE four install is going to be far from stock. People installing your engines are typlically running carbs from the pictures on this site. That means they are hacking out the stock fuel pump, hacking out all associated parts from the stock fuel injection, based on your reccomendations people are putting headers on these engines and hacking out the stock heat exchanges, most Raby installs I have seen have required oil coolers to be hacked into the car, etc. Hack hack hack.
Your freind,
Fiero Wantabe
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 10:07 AM
| QUOTE |
| Anybody *EVER* do a SIX conversion, not like it and go back to a FOUR? Serious question... |
Yes, a guy by the name of Paul Rankin comes to mind.... Email him at paulandbetsy@usa.com
He did this mid 2005 after his 2nd used six bit the dust and was gonna cost more to repair than my entire complete engine cost.. (repair it stock)
He bought a kit through the store and a used TIV to build it from off of Ebay.
email him, super nice guy.
| QUOTE |
| I think you probably build great engines. However your endless attacks on six conversions appears to not be based on fact. |
Thats odd, it seems that your endless attacks on the 4 are not based on fact either! (imagine that) have you ever installed one of my engines? Have you EVER installled a six? Have you ever done anything successfully except prove that you are a person that creates opinions from looking at pictures and observations based on other's opinions?
The net has created these types of people- experts through other people's experiences.
Posted by: DNHunt Feb 25 2006, 10:24 AM
Grant
You did say most of his engines so don't take this as an attack. However, I don't have a cooler, I do run a header and I do run FI with most of the stock parts. I have all of the stuff I need to put the old #'s matching engine with D-jet back in the car in a weekend. In that respect, my install and choice of engines is kind of unusual. That can't be done with a six conversion.
The other thing I considered was I wanted to assemble this engine with my son and it was my 1st engine build. Jake offered a kit and did all of the planning. I got a really special time with my son.
My situation was unique so my solution to the /6 vs /4 question is also unique. Most people probably won't consider either of these points very important but, they led me to a hipo /4 and I'm happy with what I have.
Dave
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 10:46 AM
Jake, you still havent answered the original question. What hacking are you refering to with a six conversion?
Posted by: anthony Feb 25 2006, 11:41 AM
Jake just posted current pricing on his complete (carbs/injection, ready to install) 914 engines.
These 4 vs. 6 threads are heading towards 
territory.
Posted by: DNHunt Feb 25 2006, 11:51 AM
Grant
Fair enough. I just wanted to point out the thoughts I went through in reaching my decision. You reached a different conclusion and I certainly respect that. If we ever get a chance let's give each other rides. I suspect we'll both enjoy the other's car.
I agree . I'm done
Dave
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 25 2006, 11:59 AM
[QUOTE=Jake Raby,Feb 25 2006, 08:07 AM] [QUOTE]
Have you EVER installled a six? Have you ever done anything successfully except prove that you are a person that creates opinions from looking at pictures and observations based on other's opinions?
The net has created these types of people- experts through other people's experiences. [/QUOTE]
Ouch, I'll bet that smarts
Lessee, I converter to a 2.4T, then swapped it out for a 200+
hp 2.7L that I builded meself all for a rough number of under 13K....this is engine related stuff and not subtracting "stuff" I sold when I changed over the last time. The "real" number is prolly close to 11k including everything to make the engine run & stay cool, but we'll leave a margin for error.
So, can I get a "T4 by Jake" that puts out 200+ hp for under 13K all inclusive?
Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 25 2006, 12:02 PM
| QUOTE (DNHunt @ Feb 25 2006, 10:55 AM) |
| This discussion always cracks me up. The car was designed for both engines. We have a choice and there isn't a wrong answer. |
no truer words were ever spoken... I don't give 2 shits about which eninge anyone uses... just get another teener on the road and keep it there! 6,4, SBC, suby, electric... knock yourself out!
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 12:44 PM
| QUOTE |
| So, can I get a "T4 by Jake" that puts out 200+ hp for under 13K all inclusive |
Absolutely....
It's being made possible solely by the "New Generation" heads.... But it would not have EFI, just carbs and a Mallory dizzy.
These heads are changing everything cost wise with the Big TIV. They are making more power with smaller engines, engines that don't require Nickies to live and run cool.
The customer that made 202 HP three weeks ago didn't have 13K in his engine, and it was carbbed....Thats all inclusive except exhaust...
He had a core, had a Mallory, had his carbs, but they needed 450 bucks worth of rebuild work....
The added power the heads are producing is not increasing the price of the engines at all. It is increasing my backlog heavily though! (and they have not even made their public debut yet- that'll be in May when the first Hot VWs article ends up on the shelves)
FWIW the engine "Kit" for this 200HP engine cost less than 5K bucks.
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 01:00 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 25 2006, 10:44 AM) | ||
Absolutely.... It's being made possible solely by the "New Generation" heads.... But it would not have EFI, just carbs and a Mallory dizzy. These heads are changing everything cost wise with the Big TIV. They are making more power with smaller engines, engines that don't require Nickies to live and run cool. The customer that made 202 HP three weeks ago didn't have 13K in his engine, and it was carbbed....Thats all inclusive except exhaust... He had a core, had a Mallory, had his carbs, but they needed 450 bucks worth of rebuild work.... The added power the heads are producing is not increasing the price of the engines at all. It is increasing my backlog heavily though! (and they have not even made their public debut yet- that'll be in May when the first Hot VWs article ends up on the shelves) FWIW the engine "Kit" for this 200HP engine cost less than 5K bucks. |
Is there an independent dyno run on this sub $13K Raby built 200 hp motor?
Can you point me to a place on your web site where I can buy this kit? Its still not to late for me to scrap the six conversion I could easily sell my motor for a profit.
Posted by: iamchappy Feb 25 2006, 01:11 PM
It is all personal preference. I have had big t4's and I now have a big six.
They are both different in performance and feel.
I wanted big horsepower in my 914 so it would compare with modern day sport cars
of today. I love everything about the 914 and it is my sports car of choice to tool around in during the day. I get far more pleasure out of a 400 hp turbo charged 3 liter six than I ever did out of my 2.9 liter t4.
200 hp was not enough for me, but if that was what I was looking for in delivering the performance I wanted out of my 914 I would pick up a nice used six 2.7 on up. that way if the desire for more power down the road every comes up you have that option as the highly modified t4 is already at or close to its questionable reliable limit at that point.
I am waiting to see Jake to build a 350+ hp t4 that redlines at 6400 rpms for under 10k. The nice thing about Jake is he sets no limits and works to get it done
Posted by: Scott Carlberg Feb 25 2006, 01:16 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 22 2006, 01:49 PM) |
| The V-8 swap makes the most sense to me- by far. If you are gonna cut and weld and ruin the car- you might as well do the best damn job possible! At least it's cheap! |
yeah but,
your Porsche 914 is then powered by a chevy
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 01:42 PM
| QUOTE |
| I trying not to be skeptical, but it sounds like the equivilent to vaporware |
Don't call me a liar. Yes you are being skeptical.
The customer was standing right beside me and saw the numbers in real time. If you want his email address, PM me.
My Dyno actuator and torque scale were calibrated on 1/21/06.
This combination has been good for up to 185 HP in the past..
| QUOTE |
| I'm also assuming the $5000 200 hp kit isnt turn key |
Hell no it's not! MY assembly time to make the engine a turn key DOUBLES the price-
The kit gives you everything out to the valve covers to make this engine, based on a stock engine of any size, all parts are balanced, prepped and ready to be assembled without any special tools, other than a dial indicator.
You need carbs (or aftermarket EFI) Ignition and exhaust. My "Super kits" include everything ready to assemble this combination, they go for about 7K with new carbs, Mallory unilite- you just provide the core and the hours of your life to assemble it.
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 25 2006, 01:48 PM
You're making 200hp with iron cyls and keeping it cool with no external cooler?
You're a better man than I, Gunga Din.
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 01:51 PM
Cooling the oil does not and will not cool the cylinder heads! Head temps are not of any issue- the engine is efficient enough that it doesn't generate excess heat. If you have heat issues add the 914 DTM and they are resolved.
Of course an external oil cooler is needed, for most applications- just like with a six.
Its only been a matter of development.
Posted by: JOHNMAN Feb 25 2006, 01:53 PM
| QUOTE |
| These 4 vs. 6 threads are heading towards :dead horse: territory. |
I would like to see more electric conversions so I may learn more about that technology. (I know there were a few threads a while back...)
Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 25 2006, 02:08 PM
were is the badass moderator from hell ? 
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 25 2006, 02:21 PM
This debate has been going on for years...on every 914 BBS in existance. You wanna end it? Good luck. It gives Jake a sales tool and gives me a chance to 
at him.
This place would be booooring without honest (& well thought out) differences of opinion.
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 02:29 PM
I think that from now on, the person who initiates these threads should be crucified!
Hell, after so many posts we have covered every aspect of each engine from every angle.
JP is right, the bickering is good for the BBS and it helps us all have something to write about...
Fact is that we all uphold the choices we have made and we should. The sixers that made the choice don't fancy the four. Those of us that like 4s do the same- it's only human nature and it doesn't matter if we are talking about Bicycles or engines it's going to happen..
I engage in the same battles with the VW guys about Type 1 Vs Type 4 and the Pinzgauer guys argue about leaving their engine stock or going bigger.
The day we all agree, is unfortunately the day that none of us will breathe any longer.
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 04:05 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 25 2006, 11:42 AM) |
| You need carbs (or aftermarket EFI) Ignition and exhaust. My "Super kits" include everything ready to assemble this combination, they go for about 7K with new carbs, Mallory unilite- you just provide the core and the hours of your life to assemble it. |
The 200 hp kit once you get everything required to do the masssive 4 conversion is easily $8500 plus labor. You need carbs or aftermarket FI, ignition, heavy duty clutch and headers too. I too doubt the "wisdom" of running a 200 hp T4 without an oil cooler. And do you still feel that your fuel injection system is the best in extracting the most consistent power and assures fewer problems with the engine running lean etc? If I were to invest in one of these hot 200 hp engine kits I'd want to make sure it runs reliably. How much is your programed fuel injection system running now a days? ...$3000? That would put the total 200 hp kit conversion over $9000 plus labor. ..and if one was to go with the headers you reccomend that cost would go over $10K plus labor. The devil is always in the details, isnt it.
Posted by: turboman808 Feb 25 2006, 04:11 PM
Can't imagine not wanting to do a subaru wrx conversion?!?!
Amazing motor and pretty darn good tranny. When I destroy the 2.7 in the car I am getting I will throw in a wrx or sti motor right away. Lucky for me I know the best subaru guys in NJ. They would love to tackle this and they have the motors ready to go.
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 04:37 PM
Grant,
There is no labor...
You don't have a tool box?
Sears has good deals!
Build a -6 with all new parts and see what you spend! Hell these days 8K won't even rebuild a STOCK 356 engine if you use new parts! Thats less than 85HP!
FWIW- My 3 liter engine in the beetle with 10:1 CR ran all last summer with only a 48 plate oil cooler.
Grant is proving to be another Alfred.........
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 05:26 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 25 2006, 02:37 PM) |
| Grant, There is no labor... You don't have a tool box? Sears has good deals! Build a -6 with all new parts and see what you spend! Hell these days 8K won't even rebuild a STOCK 356 engine if you use new parts! Thats less than 85HP! FWIW- My 3 liter engine in the beetle with 10:1 CR ran all last summer with only a 48 plate oil cooler. Grant is proving to be another Alfred......... |
Jake I dont have a tool box or a garage. Are you poking fun at the underprivledged?
So I would have to factor tools and garage into my Raby build as well. Still think that would be cheaper than having you build the engine for me. Oh and Jake I never expected you to answer my question about how doing a six is a hack job as you would be eaten alive on this board.
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 05:29 PM
| QUOTE |
| Jake I dont have a tool box or a garage |
Then why the hell did you buy a 914?
Buy a tool box, get some time on the tools and come back to see us...
Posted by: J P Stein Feb 25 2006, 05:44 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 25 2006, 03:29 PM) |
| Buy a tool box, get some time on the tools and come back to see us... |
The man has a point. Tools seperate us'n from monkeys & other homos. Having no tools is downright uncivilized.....in my considered opinion.
I gots awsome tools. I be a civilized sumbitch
Posted by: Travis Neff Feb 25 2006, 05:48 PM
This has become apples to oranges. Lots of comparisons to a completed engine ready to bolt in without any other modifications to the car.
Next we state that building the engine yourself with a kit doesn't compare to doing a six conversion - but you need to do fab work to get it into the car, just like building an engine kit.
I think the kit is comparable to a used small displacment 6cyl on the cheap,w ith comparable numbers. So, it's just what floats your boat at this point.
Posted by: Cloudbuster Feb 25 2006, 05:51 PM
Where'd the 200+ hp figure come from?
Is a stock 2.4 'E' six with carbs going to make 200?
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 05:57 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 25 2006, 03:29 PM) | ||
Then why the hell did you buy a 914? Buy a tool box, get some time on the tools and come back to see us... |
Again how is a six conversion a hack job? ....Crickets chirping
Posted by: DNHunt Feb 25 2006, 06:04 PM
It's always been what floats your boat. What's your favorite beer? What's your favorite color or fruit or do you wear boxers or ball bags? Pick what you want that's what is right for you.
I'm really done this time
Dave
Posted by: Travis Neff Feb 25 2006, 06:19 PM
| QUOTE (DNHunt @ Feb 25 2006, 04:04 PM) |
| What's your favorite beer? |
Ha! I am a beer whore, Don't care what it is, if it is placed in front of me it will soon be in me...
Posted by: brant Feb 25 2006, 06:23 PM
Grant...
can't you concede that the 10K motor is at least brand new...
This is the way I see it:
-----------------------------
grant's conversion parts and motor = 6K
rebuilding grants motor/carbs to be ALSO BRAND NEW = 8K
grants total (in order to compare new to new) = 14K
dude... I'm glad your doing a -6
I bet you love it..
but dang... I hope it doesn't go poof on you and let all the magic smoke out. Because you then have to learn that neither type is cheap and each type can make the owner very happy.
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 06:39 PM
| QUOTE (brant @ Feb 25 2006, 04:23 PM) |
| Grant... can't you concede that the 10K motor is at least brand new... This is the way I see it: ----------------------------- grant's conversion parts and motor = 6K rebuilding grants motor/carbs to be ALSO BRAND NEW = 8K grants total (in order to compare new to new) = 14K dude... I'm glad your doing a -6 I bet you love it.. but dang... I hope it doesn't go poof on you and let all the magic smoke out. Because you then have to learn that neither type is cheap and each type can make the owner very happy. |
Yes I agree that its a bunch of new parts for $8 to $10K if your going for the 200 HP kit, but its not a running engine. $10K plus for a 170 HP engine that we have no idea whether 170 hp was generated with stock, improved or modified headers from Tangerine or if it was with carbs or the $2800 FI. Required upgrade to heavy duty clutch. Up to $1000 more for machining or core if you dont have them, plus the shipping of all these items back and forth. When you add the undisclosed costs and possiblility of machining or core the ticket to the game gets a lot more expensive. Approaching $15K
This post was originally focused on the cost of a 170 hp T4. I would just like to see some honesty about the entire conversion costs associated with the claimed output.
And how long before one of Jakes engines isnt considered brand new anymore? Brand new is over rated in my opinion.
Posted by: anthony Feb 25 2006, 06:46 PM
Jake posted prices for full ready to install engines on page 1 of this thread:
| QUOTE |
2316cc “B mod” 96X80mm 170BHP@ 6,500 RPM 170 lb/ft TQ @ 4,000 RPM Engine redline @ 7,300 RPM Fuel requirement- 91 octane Price of standard engine, as specified above= 10,400.00 (1K of that is carbs alone) Optional items- These prices are UPGRADES meaning the cost is on top of the proposed prices. JE Forged pistons+ 434.00 (track engines only) Ceramic lifters+ 600.00 Lightened flywheel+ 125.00 914 DTM+ 1250.00 Programmable EFI+ 2,800 (full kit, all you buy is hoses and fittings to install and price includes dyno tuning) |
P.S.
Posted by: brant Feb 25 2006, 06:59 PM
I apologize to mod3pr.. or whomever started this thread..
its taken an ugly turn...
I suggest everyone on this thread go do something productive like work on their cars..
summer is coming lots of projects to finish before race season everyone!
brant
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 08:24 PM
Here are the headers Jake requires to make 170 HP. The modified version of the Tangerines cost more than my used 6 cylinder engine. They are great headers but figured you would want to know how much your commiting to in oder to get the Raby claimed 170 hp.
http://www.tangerineracing.com/Super_Header.htm#SUPER%20HEADER%20%20COMPLETE%20SYSTEM%20PRICES
Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 25 2006, 08:35 PM
I love the porsche six cyl. engine , but they are 30 plus years old with untold upkeep.
I will believe your story when you run it .
I hope your's is as good as Trekkors , but the odds are against you.
Now get it running 
| QUOTE |
| It's always been what floats your boat. What's your favorite beer? What's your favorite color or fruit or do you wear boxers or ball bags? Pick what you want that's what is right for you. |
Don't get me wrong , you did the right thing going with a six.
Posted by: Dead Air Feb 25 2006, 08:52 PM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Feb 25 2006, 08:46 AM) |
| Jake, you still havent answered the original question. What hacking are you refering to with a six conversion? |
[QUOTE]
Jake didn't say Hack,
I did!
Putting a Porsche 6 in isn't a hack job, IMHO. I'm not talking the racers here either...
Dropping a non Porsche motor is. Even though it may be very well done, a Subaru motor in a 914 is a toyota MR2. Just buy an MR2 and be done with it.
I'm of the generation that would never consider putting a Chevy SB in a '67 Mustang. It might go like crazy but it just isn't right.
The car IS the motor...
Posted by: Tom Perso Feb 25 2006, 08:52 PM
I have to say, Trekkor has given this club biased perception of how *easy* a -6 conversion is.
He's lucky with his motor and it seem to run really well, and I'm happy for him. In fact, I'd love to have the same luck he has.
But, reality is that not everyone will get lucky on an OLD -6 motor. It's a crapshoot.
I'm installing a used 1.8L into my car to run Megasquirt on. It may run for a summer, it may run for 3 years.
But, it was only $200.
Tom
Posted by: trekkor Feb 25 2006, 08:56 PM
Wow!
I've missed all the action.
All I know is... SIXES are better! 
I've been enjoying the nice weather all week.
Went out to Sears three times this week in the 914.
A guy at the track that builds 'em said he thinks I gots the "S" cams because of the 7300 rpm redline.
I was happy.
How many FOURS do that? 7300 
Also on a side note. I heard a radio ad years ago for a pick'n'pull or U-pull-it or something, the tag line was: why not buy used, *every* other part on your car is?
KT
Posted by: toecutter Feb 25 2006, 08:57 PM
How much cutting and welding constitutes a "hack"? Lets not pretend there is none in converting to a /6. Every conversion I have seen has also had stiffening kits added in. And lets not pretend the conversion is not rife with expensive parts: oil tank, filler neck, associated plumbing, exhaust, throttle linkage,engine tin, motor mounts. I admire a well done conversion but I damn well know it aint a cheap proposition.
Posted by: Hammy Feb 25 2006, 09:00 PM
| QUOTE (Dead Air @ Feb 25 2006, 06:52 PM) |
| Dropping a non Porsche motor is. Even though it may be very well done, a Subaru motor in a 914 is a toyota MR2. Just buy an MR2 and be done with it. I'm of the generation that would never consider putting a Chevy SB in a '67 Mustang. It might go like crazy but it just isn't right. The car IS the motor... |
Posted by: Tom Perso Feb 25 2006, 09:16 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Feb 25 2006, 09:56 PM) |
| How many FOURS do that? 7300 |
Mine did...
But, it wasn't stock.
Your's doesn't sound stock either...
Tom
Posted by: sixnotfour Feb 25 2006, 09:33 PM
six conversion once its done you have a wide selection of motors from 2.0-3.6 to choose from.
mine has a 2.4 carbs going to a 3.2motronic 48k for 6k,included fuel pump,tach,etc. , clutch 500.00
a little wiring for the injection upgrade, done.
| QUOTE |
| Also on a side note. I heard a radio ad years ago for a pick'n'pull or U-pull-it or something, the tag line was: why not buy used, *every* other part on your car is? |
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 25 2006, 09:34 PM
[QUOTE=Dead Air,Feb 25 2006, 06:52 PM] [QUOTE=grantsfo,Feb 25 2006, 08:46 AM] Jake, you still havent answered the original question. What hacking are you refering to with a six conversion? [/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]
Jake didn't say Hack,
I did!
Putting a Porsche 6 in isn't a hack job, IMHO. I'm not talking the racers here either...
Dropping a non Porsche motor is. Even though it may be very well done, a Subaru motor in a 914 is a toyota MR2. Just buy an MR2 and be done with it.
I'm of the generation that would never consider putting a Chevy SB in a '67 Mustang. It might go like crazy but it just isn't right.
The car IS the motor... [/QUOTE]
No you both said hack. Here is his quote:
"I think more people here should buy a Fiero...
But all the cars getting hacked up, make the cars that are not- worth more money everyday. One day that will matter and the guys who were the smart ones will be on top."
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 09:35 PM
Damn near every engine I build will spin 7,300...... 95% of them go that high on the dyno before they leave..
Grant, now you are taking a slam at another well respected member of this forum who MAKES THOSE HEADERS BY HAND and does an incredible job of it. His name is Racer Chris.......Didn't mommy tell you it's not nice to disrespect other people and their work?
I'm almost to the point of getting pissed with you and you indirectly stating that my dyno numbers are "Claims".....
Ask anyone who has one of these engines if they doubt the power it produces and see what they say. Hell, Joe Ricard drove my car equipped with a 170 HP 2316 (made 146HP at the rear wheels at the SE Dyno day in 2005, in front of about 75 people) see if he doubts the power.
It pisses me off when people call me a liar, especially those that wouldn't have the balls to do it to my face.
Posted by: trekkor Feb 25 2006, 09:45 PM
I liked the avatar of you screaming. The Simon one scares me. 
KT
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 25 2006, 10:28 PM
Simon rules.....
He's my hero....
Posted by: Porcharu Feb 25 2006, 10:46 PM
| QUOTE (Hammy @ Feb 25 2006, 07:00 PM) | ||
|
I just have to disagree here - the 914 is one of the only cars I can think of where the engine is not important. The great driving aspect of the car is everything.
No comparison at all to a SBC in a Mustang - their is no good reason at all to do that - none. The Chevy and Ford can both make the same power with the same reliability (or lack of it) for the same cost (or very close.)
An MR2? How is small engined no torque sidewinder a 914? Besides they are not smog exempt so you can't really do anything with them.
Posted by: ModPR3 Feb 26 2006, 04:08 AM
i just wanted to say that i didnt mean for this post to become flame wars. i honestly just wanted opinions on both engines just to give me an idea of cost vs power, ease of install and upgrades available, ect. but i feel like i opened up pandoras box. everyone is entittled to their own opinion and it should be left at that. with that said i do thank those of you who did help me out with my question i really do appriciate it.
Posted by: DNHunt Feb 26 2006, 07:28 AM
| QUOTE |
| i just wanted to say that i didnt mean for this post to become flame wars. i honestly just wanted opinions on both engines just to give me an idea of cost vs power, ease of install and upgrades available, ect. but i feel like i opened up pandoras box. everyone is entittled to their own opinion and it should be left at that. with that said i do thank those of you who did help me out with my question i really do appriciate it. |
Hey don't worry about it. We go through this exercise periodically. Kinda like fightin with the old lady.
Everyone gets all upset, nothing gets decided (cause there is no right and wrong), the thread dies and then we do it all over again after a little rest. It must be cathartic cause we seem to like it. No harm done.Actually maybe it more like bass fishin. Toss in a little bait and wait for the action to begin. Maybe feedin piranha.
I think we will go to our graves arguing this and when we get to Heaven there'll be 914's with flat 10s and we'll all feel kinda stupid. Then we'll start arguing whether a flat 10 or a V 16 SBC is better cause we're never satisfied.
Dave
Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 26 2006, 08:00 AM
All I can say is that big /4 owners have big dicks and the reason small dick guys want to do a /6 is because they think it's less painful than a penis extension.
Posted by: DNHunt Feb 26 2006, 08:23 AM
Aw man look where this leadin us. Better get your wife on here to confirm that claim. At least Jake has dyno numbers for his engines.
Posted by: tat2dphreak Feb 26 2006, 09:14 AM
it's like ford v. chevy:
"damn chevy, makes my pee yellow... I'd rather push my Ford"
"you know what Ford is: Found On Road Dead"
it's the same 
shit as it always is...
Posted by: grantsfo Feb 26 2006, 09:32 AM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 25 2006, 07:35 PM) |
| Damn near every engine I build will spin 7,300...... 95% of them go that high on the dyno before they leave.. Grant, now you are taking a slam at another well respected member of this forum who MAKES THOSE HEADERS BY HAND and does an incredible job of it. His name is Racer Chris.......Didn't mommy tell you it's not nice to disrespect other people and their work? I'm almost to the point of getting pissed with you and you indirectly stating that my dyno numbers are "Claims"..... Ask anyone who has one of these engines if they doubt the power it produces and see what they say. Hell, Joe Ricard drove my car equipped with a 170 HP 2316 (made 146HP at the rear wheels at the SE Dyno day in 2005, in front of about 75 people) see if he doubts the power. It pisses me off when people call me a liar, especially those that wouldn't have the balls to do it to my face. |
I wasnt slamming Tangerine. His work is incredible and worth every penny. I even said his work is great. But the cost is a consideration. For people making a decison on which route to go. Remeber this is a thread asking about costs between T4 and 6. Another high quality manufacturer of 914-6 headers, MSDS, makes very nice quaility headers for six conversion for under $500 for 914club members. These are cost decisons not emotional issues as you make them.
Which fuel delivery system was used, which header and muffler combo from Tangerine (stock, improved, modified) was used for your claimed 170 HP turn key engine.
Oh and Jake what gets hacked in a six conversion?
Posted by: Bleyseng Feb 26 2006, 09:39 AM
| QUOTE (DNHunt @ Feb 26 2006, 05:28 AM) |
| Actually maybe it more like bass fishin. Toss in a little bait and wait for the action to begin. Maybe feedin piranha. Dave |
I must be a gutton for punishment as I swim where there are piranha ( in Surianme) and I read this crap over and over......
You can buy a used Raby motor (2270cc- 145-170hp) and drop it in for about the same price as a used 6 (130-220hp). ($2000-5000).
The killer part of a six swap is all the conversion pieces! BradR posted a list awhile ago to the tune of $4500 new. yeah, yeah you can be a swapmeet Louie and get used parts or swap for them for cheaper...Me, I am kinda anal so I want new oem Porsche parts so making engine tin outta some leftover metal ducting isn't for me.
Posted by: Mark Henry Feb 26 2006, 09:42 AM
WAH-WAH-WAH
You're just pissed because you now realize that your wimpy used 2.4 will have no more power than a new 2056cc T4.
Posted by: LouisCypher Feb 26 2006, 09:48 AM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Feb 22 2006, 09:47 AM) |
| 2316cc “B mod” 96X80mm 170BHP@ 6,500 RPM 170 lb/ft TQ @ 4,000 RPM Engine redline @ 7,300 RPM Fuel requirement- 91 octane Induction- priced with new 44mm IDF carbs. Not compatible with Stock EFI. Programmable fuel injection, optional for this engine, based on stock plenum/runners or individual runner T/Bs for engines using the 914 DTM. Individual runners not available for this engine without the 914 DTM. Note about carbs- If the customer has their own carbs, they will not be utilized- sell them on Ebay and I’ll include brand new ones! Carbs can create a variable in the pricing and that’s not a possibility. I also do not fancy used, old carbs that give me a fit on the dyno and need repairs. The engine is priced with New Webers and matching linkage. Exhaust- Not included, HEATER BOXES NOT COMPATIBLE Kerry Hunter header or the Tangerine Racing header required. Euro race header is not adequate for this engine, nor is the triad or Bursch |
Why is the European Racing header not adequate for this engine?
Cheers,
Louis
Posted by: Jake Raby Feb 26 2006, 11:09 AM
| QUOTE |
| Why is the European Racing header not adequate for this engine? |
When tested with this engine combo the header in question won't yield 155HP from the engine. BSFC numbers are 20% higher and head and oil temperatures rise at least 10%.
Install the Tangerine and all that goes away and the engine can be tuned to 170+ within 2 more pulls.
Trust me- I have done this test back to back many times.
One can't expect to spend 5K+ on engine internals and try to exhaust all of that for under 500 bucks- those that do it waste all their money. Remember- everything that is done to an engine except the exhaust system is done to get more air INTO the engine, or to light the fire to make the power with that air, and guess what 80% of what goes in MUST come back out as efficient as possible. If it does not, all the other money spent was wasted...
If you cheese out on exhaust your exhaust valves and exhaust seats will hate you for it- when they speak up, you WILL listen.
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