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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Anyone seen the new Exellence?
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 17 2006, 10:58 PM
Nice work boys. 928 and 914 does it get any better? Cool glass top 911... 
Posted by: jr91472 Mar 18 2006, 06:47 AM
yep.... 
Nice 912 article too. I liked the statement about beating the "914 contingent" during his first a/x. Nice to hear someone "brag" about beating a 914.
Posted by: jim912928 Mar 18 2006, 08:07 AM
yep..got mine thursday...nice writeup on the 928 engine!
Posted by: J P Stein Mar 18 2006, 08:08 AM
Yes. I read Pete's Op ed piece as to why new Porsche's cars have become overweight pigs (IMO, not his). Apparently, we
throwbacks to a simpler time don't enter into the "customer expectations" data base. 
If Porsche made a 2500 lb, 250 hp sports car, I prolly couldn't afford it anyhow.....but I could, at least, lust for it. 
Posted by: Tobra Mar 18 2006, 09:12 AM
IF they made a car like that, they would sell all they could possibly make.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 18 2006, 09:42 AM
| QUOTE (Tobra @ Mar 18 2006, 07:12 AM) |
| IF they made a car like that, they would sell all they could possibly make. |
have to be Mittle motor
Posted by: KaptKaos Mar 18 2006, 10:03 AM
| QUOTE (Tobra @ Mar 18 2006, 07:12 AM) |
| IF they made a car like that, they would sell all they could possibly make. |
Unfortunately, I disagree.
I don't think the Elise is going to sell all that many cars and that would be the closest thing out there today to an "elemental" car.
Posted by: ABC914 Mar 18 2006, 10:05 AM
| QUOTE |
| IF they made a car like that, they would sell all they could possibly make. |
You mean like this? (Except fewer than 2500 pounds!)
Posted by: Eddie Williams Mar 18 2006, 11:59 AM
You see, by the time you add all the air bags and electronics and sound proofing, no car can be that light. The consumer (and gov't regulation) demands cars that are heavy, ergo not feul efficient. The days of elemental cars is gone. we throwback types are the last of a breed. Besides we all probably drive "safe" sedans and suvs as our daily drivers.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 18 2006, 12:01 PM
| QUOTE (KaptKaos @ Mar 18 2006, 08:03 AM) | ||
Unfortunately, I disagree. I don't think the Elise is going to sell all that many cars and that would be the closest thing out there today to an "elemental" car. |
I can't agree, A british car company with a novelity enthusist following, against a well established Germany sports car company with a huge market share as sports car go.
Then look at the thing. Sorry to anyone who has one but they are goofy looking.
They look like cheap rice inspired boy toy's. Not a muscular, snarly, Autobahn giant killer. 
Sorry, I don't get the attraction. 
If they made the car pictured in the Motor Trend article floating around here, They would sell them bad boys.
Man am I going to get flamed for this one..
Posted by: Howard Mar 18 2006, 12:45 PM
Soap Box..
Different strokes. I don't want a bahnburner. The fun of the supercars is driving them at superlegal speeds. Enzo/penis size jokes aside, why?
I got into Porsches when they built under 1800# street cars and under 1200# race cars that were cheaper and whipped the big iron in the 50's and 60's. A 63 Super 90 could hide from a 63 Ferrari on Mulholland; an RSK could stay with or beat Testa Rossa on most tracks. Now that's my idea of fun.
The closest thing we have today is the Miata. The Soltice/Sky/Opel weigh more, and will overcome the performance issue with more HP and weight. So here we go agin.
Sure, there's the Lotus, but twice the price with a Toyota engine?. The Boxster is more than twice the price and a bit portly at 2800#. A great car to be sure, but I would rather have it weigh less, offer fewer amenities, and I don't need the opportunity to get into 150+mph trouble.
Could Porsche go to the the parts bin and build a 2200#, 200hp, under 30K? Sure, but why? That will only happen when the US market balks at paying the big $$ entry fee. That's what spawned the 55 Speedster ($2995)and the 70 914 ($3995).
A 914/4 is about the last affordable version of a 'real' sports car. 95hp and 1900# is a nice combo for the recreational driving I do. Adding HP would require improvments to suspension and brakes, and pretty soon you lose that 'lovin feeling'.
Rick, I love your car, and if I were going to drive a 914 across country yours would be the one to use. But that's what the Infiniti is for 
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 18 2006, 01:02 PM
| QUOTE |
| Could Porsche go to the the parts bin and build a 2200#, 200hp, under 30K? Sure, but why? That will only happen when the US market balks at paying the big $$ entry fee. That's what spawned the 55 Speedster ($2995)and the 70 914 ($3995). |
Great piont Howard, speedsters were entry level cars that worked great as racers for the same reason.
my Dads 58 speedster bought in 67 , mint 1600.00
914-6's were expensive at 6900.00
I dont have my Excellence yet
Posted by: lapuwali Mar 18 2006, 01:26 PM
The Elise is rather TOO elemental for most people, but it also only weighs 1900lbs. 600lbs of more engine and sound deadening and other creature comforts would likely sell much better than the Elise. For the price they'd charge, it would have to be a real car, not a toy.
I have a hard time understanding why they couldn't make a Cayman-like car weigh 2500-ish pounds. A Club Cayman or Cayman RS. I'm sure there's a market for a few thousand of those, at least.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 18 2006, 01:54 PM
Thanks Howy, Coming from you I can respect the thoughts and words. After all, your speaking from experience having owned and driven Moby.
I love the 914 for it's simplicity and basic no frills layout. But the American Muscle Hotrodder in me needs that rumble and feeling of shear terror you get when you mash the throttle. I like to feel like I could put my life at risk at any moment in the apex of a corner. Suicidal? Nay, 
I'm a car guy, not a Porsche guy. I'm and artist, Body shop guy, engine builder, drag racer, and a self proclaimed reverse engineer. I can't leave anything alone. I have a compultion to phuts with it.
I built my 914 before I ever drove one. I literally finished the car and had never driven it. I love the waty it looks like it's going 100 mph sitting in the parking lot. I looked at the car I built for a year. I drove it around for two summers with the 4 cylinder. The third summer I abandoned it in the yard. If it weren't for Pelican, and then this board I would have moved on.
After some serious consideration I felt the compultion to take my car in a direction "I" felt Porsche should have gone. They built an awsome 6 version as a ground floor entry level euro hot rod. Then just as fast as they seemed to get it, they seemed to "not get it." When the 914 shells dried up, they forget all about sales numbers and moved in another direction.
It's seemed a logical direction to move the 928 V8 into one of the best chassis designs they ever had. Hence the Alien was born.
Now I wasn't looking to add all the crap that Porsche decided to add the the 928 like a game of pin the tail on the donkey. I wanted the euro/ american version of the Route "66" Corvette. All Porsche, All Power, 2 seats, no frills, No creature comforts.
Where am I going with all this rambling? I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I can't be the last boy scout. The last guy wanting more and less at the same time. A light wieght, no frills, powerhouse, capable of up grades. A stylish, adult sports car without all the weird styling accents cut into the car for no real reason.
If Porsche built such a car I would probably still mess with it. 
Ya, it's a sickness.. 
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 18 2006, 01:58 PM
Man I hijacked my own thread...
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Posted by: Howard Mar 18 2006, 02:26 PM
| QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Mar 18 2006, 11:54 AM) |
| I guess the point I'm trying to make is, I can't be the last boy scout. The last guy wanting more and less at the same time. A light weight, no frills, powerhouse, capable of up grades. A stylish, adult sports car without all the weird styling accents cut into the car for no real reason. |
Preachin' to the choir, here. How did they manage to F up the BMW Z and Cayman with all the little body 'tricks'? The new Miata is getting a bit 'bulgy' too.I obviously like V8's too, and the light weight no frills really appeals to my David v Goliath cheapo mind set. But how big of a market is there for this kind of car? Toyota could build a lower tech 'Elise', sell it for $20k, but would never sell enough to matter.
Nope, I think we're stuck with 914's or limited production kit cars for our fix.
Posted by: J P Stein Mar 18 2006, 02:31 PM
| QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Mar 18 2006, 11:58 AM) |
| Man I hijacked my own thread... |
Yes you did.....but skillfully
We'll be OK if Jake don't come over and make it an infomertial.
I really had to laugh when Porsche kept comparing the 550 Spyder to the Boxster. Their pics & vids were VERY careful to not place the 2 close together. That would have shown how huge the Box is in comparison. Shrink the box by a 10-20% (but leave the power) and you'd have something.
Posted by: sean_v8_914 Mar 18 2006, 02:43 PM
Rick, I think you car is the cat's meow. there is an early 928 in a barn round here. I think i can pick it up for a nickel. teh engine is fresh but teh FI has issues. I do not fear FI issues. you are a bad seed planted in my brain that just might start to grow. I need to review the PCA rule book. my V8 car sits abandoned because it is hard to find a venue to race it in. 
what was this thread about?
Posted by: sean_v8_914 Mar 18 2006, 02:44 PM
Rick, go back and park your Alien the other way
Posted by: turboman808 Mar 18 2006, 03:04 PM
If the other manufacturers are paying attention to the elise and exige we should start to see some really fast and inexpensive sports cars. And hell if people would just quit buying these over priced pigs they would make the car ya all want.
Personaly only porsche that ever interested me was the 914. All the rest are ugly IMO. But I also think most ferraris and lambos are ugly was well so I may be alone on this. Pantera or Exige will be my next purchases.
With all the interest with the 914/wrx I would love for subaru to build a car like that. To bad Toyota didn't put the GTS motor in the mr2. what the heck were they thinking??? They would have sold like mad!?!?!?
Posted by: Howard Mar 18 2006, 03:05 PM
JP, Ya think?? I'm a lard ass but have only gained 40 lb since 1956
Specifications Porsche 550RS
Production: 1954-1956
Engine Type: Naturally Aspirated, Air Cooled, Flat 4 Cylinder Type 547/1
Displacement: 1498 cc 91 cu. in.
Power: 125 hp @ 6500 rpm 93 kW @ 6500 rpm
Torque: 96 lb. ft. @ 5000 rpm 130 Nm @ 5000 rpm
Weight: 600 kg 1323 lb (2800+ for the Boxster)
Performance 0-60 mph: ~0-100 km/h: 8.2 s
So if I find 30 hp, lose the 40 lbs, lighten the car another 200 lbs....
But that thing was tiny!
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Posted by: J P Stein Mar 18 2006, 03:34 PM
I could have as well said how tiny the 550 is....
but that's no fun.
It really did shock me to see the Box in person.
My first thought was "well.... it's large".
I went & looked at a guys 'new to him' 70 911S this morning (cost him 6K....not a typo). It reminded me how pure that design is.......cept for the turbo tail some fool saddled it with.
The direct opposite of the vastly overdone Caymen thingy.
Time marches on.
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 18 2006, 06:41 PM
The Heat article, that is Gary Chapmans 3.2engine he is putting in his 914.
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Posted by: KaptKaos Mar 18 2006, 09:47 PM
You guys crack me up!
I'd love a cheap, elemental car that handled awesome.
The MR2 spyder, as someone mentioned earlier, never was offered with the 180 hp (later revised to 164 hp) motor because Toyota knew it wasn't worth the effort. I have a friend at Toyota Corporate and I can ask him to be certain.
Reality is that all of us; Rick and his monster V8s, Howie and his bi-polar (Suzi & Moby) disorder and all the rest are a unique fringe of the enthusiast space. As cool as a 914 is, most people look at it and wonder why we like these cars.
For me, the 914 was the only way I could own a light, simple, aircooled 4 cylinder porsche with an open top without taking out a second mortgage.
Posted by: olav Mar 18 2006, 10:23 PM
I don't have my copy yet.
Posted by: krazykonrad Mar 18 2006, 10:25 PM
I couldnt agree more. This might catch me the huge flamer but it is coming from a guy whose family lives ~2 km from Zuffenhausen. Anyway Porsche should get back to making real sports cars instead of heater luxo boats for the newly well to do but ignorant. (I'm a few months of from becoming a lawyer, so I can talk) Sure they go fast but what was so cool about Porsche was being the fastest with LESS! I mean it takes some real engineering skill to get a punched out Bug motor to beat Ferraris. While I wouldnt mind getting a new 993 or 997, something's missing.
Konrad
72 914/4
Posted by: lotus_65 Mar 19 2006, 06:35 AM
well, the company that's really missed the charge is volkswagen.
those dumba$$es have the engineering, experience, marketing and most importantly, the enthusiast base to justify literally recreating the 914, but they're off building $90k battleships that don't sell!
it'll be a sad day when the last tub is gone. 99% of what's been wished for on this thread can be built into a 914 tub for less than $20 grand.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 19 2006, 07:38 AM
| QUOTE (lotus_65 @ Mar 19 2006, 04:35 AM) |
| well, the company that's really missed the charge is volkswagen. those dumba$$es have the engineering, experience, marketing and most importantly, the enthusiast base to justify literally recreating the 914, but they're off building $90k battleships that don't sell! it'll be a sad day when the last tub is gone. 99% of what's been wished for on this thread can be built into a 914 tub for less than $20 grand. |
Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 19 2006, 09:13 AM
boy 
!! the "text over pictures" in the last issue meltdown is a goofy one . don't sweat the small stuff pete. excellence is the only car mag i pay for these days. check out the appology written in the letters section. exactly where is the "914 budget" in that 912? cool car, but...handing over the car for someone to finish, would result in labor bills thru the roof. i wish the author would have been as forthcoming with his final costs as he was mentioning the previous owners downward spiral.
k
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Mar 20 2006, 02:51 PM
Just got back from Sebring... who's REALLY sweet silver 6 was that? Had a 914world.com sticker in the back!
In a corral full of overpriced iron (and carbon-fiber, including a C-GT with $64,000 in options -- $16,000 in stitching, $7700 for calipers in black, and $8000 for "paint-to-sample" white), that silver 914 was the only car getting the once-over in the paddock by a couple of guys.
I hung with them for a while and they had both owned 914s and wanted one again. Of course I directed them here...
Point of the column, for those who didn't read it, wasn't so much an immediate call for 2,500-pound Porsches (a well-sorted 914 is WAY nicer to live with than an Elise at roughly the same weight).
I was just thinking how cool it would be if Porsche would take the lead and impress us with how much weight it shaves with each new car instead of how many horses (and "extra" features) it's added. Could they target, say, 50 pounds per iteration?
If the years went by and the horsepower stayed roughly where it's at, we could end up with faster, more enviro-friendly sports cars that are more fun to drive, own, and race, too.
pete
Posted by: zymurgist Mar 20 2006, 03:08 PM
I like the idea of an "elemental" sports car. My 911 was built by the PO as a street/track car. He started with a '70 no-sunroof coupe and added nothing but power. 190 horsepower at the wheels (dyno'd) in a car thatweighs in pretty close to 2000 pounds (never weighed it). Why do I like this car so much? No power steering, no power brakes, no electric motors to power the windows... it's almost as light as it can be and still be driven on the street. (OK, it does have an interior.) I feel more in touch with the machine when I hae to pay attention to everything myself.
The experience with Babydoll ('74 2.0) is much the same, only without the push-you-back-in-your-seat acceleration. That's OK, though, I love driving on curvy mountain roads without having to hit the brakes.
Personally, I don't really see much of a point in buying current Porsche models... they weigh about as much as a Corvette with less power and presumably higher maintenance costs, and the sticker price is much higher. It seems to me that Porsche has decided that the only way it can sell sports cars is to sell luxurious cars that happen to be decent track cars.
Oh well, Babydoll lives... maybe this coming weekend she'll go out on the road for the first time in a year!
Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 20 2006, 03:43 PM
Yea 914's forever,
There was a Boxster at the event yesterday, don't think he even got a 2nd look from anyone.
big attraction was the pair of Elises. and my teener because I drove it there. 300 miles one way. The comments were look the engine is in the middle and the trunk is so little.
As I packed 4 tires and about a ton of crap in my car and drove away.
On the way home I blew by the Boxster at triple digits. for a fleeting 5 seconds he moved out to take chase and then backed off and moved to the right lane again. 
If I get to old to let common sense over rule my thrill for the car I drive just shoot me in the head.
Posted by: vortrex Mar 21 2006, 11:45 PM
| QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Mar 20 2006, 12:51 PM) |
| (a well-sorted 914 is WAY nicer to live with than an Elise at roughly the same weight) |
how so?
the elise has a warranty, AC, a motor without tons of torque, 30 MPG, and no rust problems. if you keep an elise below 6200 rpm it's a very tame daily driver type car that you can jump in and do a cross country trip without a worry in the world.
also, isn't a well sorted 914 (bigger motor, bigger wheels, bigger tires, bigger brakes, etc) more around ~2200 lbs?
Posted by: smdubovsky Mar 22 2006, 10:21 AM
Cross country trip in an elise? Only if you don't bring a woman;) If you can find a girl that can pack a weeks worth of stuff in her 1/2 of the 4 cuft luggage space, marry her (though she'd probably look like a man). I can get 4cuft of stuff packed on my sportbike riding 2-up if shes willing to wear a small backpack. But in all honesty, its not what the elise was meant to do. If it was designed to comfortably take LONG trips it would be a boxster.
Im impressed w/ the Elise, just not at the track YET. The only ones I've been w/ on track were being babied. It'll be nice to eventually see one driven in anger.
My -6 w/ a 3L (200rwhp), big brakes, and a full cage supposedly weighs 2040lbs (POs corner balance measurement). A glass hood and trunk would pare it down a little more. But, no AC... My 911SC used to get ~27 mpg, so I don't think that is much different (though my -6 has carbs which SURELY guzzle gas but just because they are stone age technology) FWIW, you can get 911s down in the 2200lb range w/o getting crazy (a friend has a ~300hp all steel RS replica that weighs that).
SMD
Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 22 2006, 10:26 AM
anyone else notice PMB's mention on p.154?
k
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Mar 22 2006, 11:45 AM
Wouldn't want ol' PMB to fail to feel the love...
As for the Elise, I've driven them -- both on the autocross in anger and on the freeway in commute mode -- and LOVE them!!!
The power to weight ratio is superior, it handles incredibly well, and it's just a better performance car in stock form -- as it should be for $50K and three decades of automotive engineering later.
BUT the 914 is still a better dual-purpose sports car.
A 914 offers far more interior space, less noise, better ride quality (though the Elise I drove on the freeway did have the sport pack...) and is just comfier all the way around.
Also, the 2006 Lotus was buzzy, had rattles, and squeaks, too -- with only 3,000 miles on the clock. My lowered 1973 914, with 250,000 miles, has 'em too -- but not as many and not as bad and not as often.
I'll grant you the A/C, but the Elise is awfully focused. It's the car I thought I always wanted -- and if I was JUST going to autocross/track days with my fun car, it'd probably be my pick. Warranty, no rust worries (again, agree with you on this...), class eligibility, etc. all make it attractive.
After that autocross, I was sold on the Elise. Then I drove one on the street. I'd rather build a $50,000 914, frankly...
But then, that's just ME. 
pete
Posted by: jgara962 Mar 22 2006, 12:19 PM
STILL waiting for my copy! 
Posted by: olav Mar 22 2006, 12:24 PM
me too!
Posted by: vortrex Mar 22 2006, 12:32 PM
| QUOTE (smdubovsky @ Mar 22 2006, 08:21 AM) |
| Cross country trip in an elise? Only if you don't bring a woman;) If you can find a girl that can pack a weeks worth of stuff in her 1/2 of the 4 cuft luggage space, marry her (though she'd probably look like a man). I can get 4cuft of stuff packed on my sportbike riding 2-up if shes willing to wear a small backpack. But in all honesty, its not what the elise was meant to do. If it was designed to comfortably take LONG trips it would be a boxster. Im impressed w/ the Elise, just not at the track YET. The only ones I've been w/ on track were being babied. It'll be nice to eventually see one driven in anger. My -6 w/ a 3L (200rwhp), big brakes, and a full cage supposedly weighs 2040lbs (POs corner balance measurement). A glass hood and trunk would pare it down a little more. But, no AC... My 911SC used to get ~27 mpg, so I don't think that is much different (though my -6 has carbs which SURELY guzzle gas but just because they are stone age technology) FWIW, you can get 911s down in the 2200lb range w/o getting crazy (a friend has a ~300hp all steel RS replica that weighs that). SMD |
I will be doing a cross country with the GF in mine from philly to the bay area this summer. I have already done 8hrs non stop and it was very comfortable. the truck is plenty big enough for 2 duffle bags.
how could your car weigh 2040 with a big 6 and cage, unless you stripped out other stuff?
Posted by: vortrex Mar 22 2006, 12:35 PM
| QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Mar 22 2006, 09:45 AM) |
| Wouldn't want ol' PMB to fail to feel the love... As for the Elise, I've driven them -- both on the autocross in anger and on the freeway in commute mode -- and LOVE them!!! The power to weight ratio is superior, it handles incredibly well, and it's just a better performance car in stock form -- as it should be for $50K and three decades of automotive engineering later. BUT the 914 is still a better dual-purpose sports car. A 914 offers far more interior space, less noise, better ride quality (though the Elise I drove on the freeway did have the sport pack...) and is just comfier all the way around. Also, the 2006 Lotus was buzzy, had rattles, and squeaks, too -- with only 3,000 miles on the clock. My lowered 1973 914, with 250,000 miles, has 'em too -- but not as many and not as bad and not as often. I'll grant you the A/C, but the Elise is awfully focused. It's the car I thought I always wanted -- and if I was JUST going to autocross/track days with my fun car, it'd probably be my pick. Warranty, no rust worries (again, agree with you on this...), class eligibility, etc. all make it attractive. After that autocross, I was sold on the Elise. Then I drove one on the street. I'd rather build a $50,000 914, frankly... But then, that's just ME. pete |
I am with you on the rattle and buzzes! mine has a ton of them at 3k miles. I've heard the non sport pack cars are a little better in this regard. changing out the A048s on my car to a street tire helped a ton. it is however a very good daily driver. it's like driving a civic if you stay below 6200. there are plenty of people who have them as only cars and even drive them in the snow all winter long!
Posted by: ClayPerrine Mar 22 2006, 12:53 PM
I think that there is a market for an "elemental" sports car. The Elise is a good example of trying to hit that target, but I think they went for the wow factor in the carbon fiber.
Why not a true 2 seat sports car, in steel? Do away with the bells and whistles like a gps navigation system, power seats, power mirrors, power steering, power windows, power cupholders, etc.
No fancy leather interior. No lighted vanity mirrors. No automatic dimming headlights.
Put heat, AC, and a radio in it. Use analog gauges.
Mid engine, but with a modern, fuel injected, computer controlled engine.
6 speed manual transmission. No automatic available.
Double wishbone front and rear suspension, with rack and pinion manual steering.
Decently quiet, but without tons of weight in insulation and noise suppression materials.
Make sure that the weight is low in the chassis, and that the design is low and wide.
Target the weight to come in at around 2300lbs. Target the HP at 230. One horsepower for every 10 pounds of weight. Which, btw, was the limit that GM imposed in 1969 on their cars. Even the muscle cars.
Subaru could do this so easily its not funny. They have the drivetrain already available in the WRX. Just build a mid engine chassis.
Anyone want to start a sports car company?
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 22 2006, 01:04 PM
| QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Mar 22 2006, 10:53 AM) |
| Subaru could do this so easily its not funny. They have the drivetrain already available in the WRX. Just build a mid engine chassis. Anyone want to start a sports car company? |
yes, Been thinking about it for years. But I'm in the wrong part of the country.
Posted by: Brando Mar 22 2006, 01:31 PM
| QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Mar 22 2006, 10:53 AM) |
| I think that there is a market for an "elemental" sports car. The Elise is a good example of trying to hit that target, but I think they went for the wow factor in the carbon fiber. Why not a true 2 seat sports car, in steel? Do away with the bells and whistles like a gps navigation system, power seats, power mirrors, power steering, power windows, power cupholders, etc. No fancy leather interior. No lighted vanity mirrors. No automatic dimming headlights. Put heat, AC, and a radio in it. Use analog gauges. Mid engine, but with a modern, fuel injected, computer controlled engine. 6 speed manual transmission. No automatic available. Double wishbone front and rear suspension, with rack and pinion manual steering. Decently quiet, but without tons of weight in insulation and noise suppression materials. Make sure that the weight is low in the chassis, and that the design is low and wide. Target the weight to come in at around 2300lbs. Target the HP at 230. One horsepower for every 10 pounds of weight. Which, btw, was the limit that GM imposed in 1969 on their cars. Even the muscle cars. Subaru could do this so easily its not funny. They have the drivetrain already available in the WRX. Just build a mid engine chassis. Anyone want to start a sports car company? |
So, you want to start up a 914 Subaru conversion company?
I'm game...
Posted by: vortrex Mar 22 2006, 01:43 PM
| QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Mar 22 2006, 10:53 AM) |
| I think that there is a market for an "elemental" sports car. The Elise is a good example of trying to hit that target, but I think they went for the wow factor in the carbon fiber. |
huh? the elise has no carbon fiber on it.
Posted by: MikeP Mar 22 2006, 01:44 PM
I drove my Elise from Ohio to California in December with my 6 foot tall buddy and our bags etc. they really are incredibly tame. Too tame in my opinion. For 99% of the population they are perfect. for my taste the VTEC 6300-8500 power boost just wets my appetite and leaves me wanting more. My 450+ hp 914 leaves me wanting more too though so that may be a comment on me not the car. If you take the power or lack there of out of the equation they are fantasitc cars. Yes a little bouncy and squeaky and twitchy but they are like that neurotic girlfriend we've all had that drove us nuts and cost a forture to maintain but made it all worth it in the sack. I'd love to see Porsche make something in the same vein. It is sorely overdue.
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Posted by: MikeP Mar 22 2006, 01:47 PM
In the snow coming home.
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Posted by: vortrex Mar 22 2006, 01:51 PM
| QUOTE (MikeP @ Mar 22 2006, 11:47 AM) |
| In the snow coming home. |
whoa...you had the A048s in the snow? wild man!
Posted by: MikeP Mar 22 2006, 02:20 PM
ya I spun it off the road twice in New Mexico when the road iced over.
Someone says "New Mexico = High Desert."
I hear "New Mexico =Desert."
Suffice it to say New Mexico + December = Black Ice.
Posted by: horizontally-opposed Mar 22 2006, 02:59 PM
WOW -- I love the moxie to roll an Elise in the snow, even if you didn't plan on it!
I dunno, I guess Elises CAN be driven daily, but I tend to think of myself as a pretty hardcore car guy and I wouldn't want to... But then they're SUCH good cars and they make me wonder why so many people are driving 500-hp/3000-4000-pound cars. I love em, but then wonder if I could really live with one. The buzzes and all that would drive me nuts! But so would the great handling, fuel economy, good tire wear, and, and, and.
Elise, you are to me an enigma. I'll stick with the ol' 914, which I know is a pile, but it's a fun pile.
To each their own! 
To those who didn't get your issues yet, I am bummed but -- truly -- can't do much. It's a USPS/bulk mailing issue. We've tried EVERYTHING, including shipping pallets to regional bulk mailing centers, shipping them all to the closest one to our printer and then having them individually mailed from there, etc. etc. They do first-class first, then the rest as they see fit.
I can apologize -- and do -- but we've done all we can. Hopefully, when you get the magazine, it will have been worth the wait...
pete
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 22 2006, 03:03 PM
| QUOTE (Brando @ Mar 22 2006, 11:31 AM) | ||
So, you want to start up a 914 Subaru conversion company? I'm game... |
No conversion for me, 1 chassis table, bird cage tubing or back bone chassis, High power mittle motor, aluminum skin.
If I lived near the coast,
I would have done this years ago.
Posted by: siverson Mar 22 2006, 03:31 PM
> If I lived near the coast, I would have done this years ago.
That sounds like an excuse to me. Why do you have to live near the coast? You need higher real estate prices for manufacturing?!?!
-Steve
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 22 2006, 03:37 PM
| QUOTE (rick 918-S @ Mar 22 2006, 01:03 PM) |
| If I lived near the coast |
time to move!
btw. the nice weather doesn't hurt either. sunny and mid '60s right now ....
Andy
Posted by: Eddie Williams Mar 22 2006, 03:44 PM
| QUOTE (siverson @ Mar 22 2006, 03:31 PM) |
| > If I lived near the coast, I would have done this years ago. That sounds like an excuse to me. Why do you have to live near the coast? You need higher real estate prices for manufacturing?!?! -Steve |
I live near the coast, no high real estate values, major interstate access (I10), 2 major ports (Beaumont and Houston), major rail, what more do we need? How much floor space are we talking about? I have a connection with a chassis guy, he is currently working on C4 into C1-C2 suspensions (and "traditional" hot rods and choppers on the side). Lets get this rolling. I've looked at the "7" sites, how hard can it be?
Posted by: Eric_Shea Mar 22 2006, 03:59 PM
Thanks Pete (for whatever you done did...)!
The mailman ain't showing PMB the love yet
Can't wait (as usual)
Posted by: turboman808 Mar 22 2006, 03:59 PM
| QUOTE (ClayPerrine @ Mar 22 2006, 10:53 AM) |
| Put heat, AC, and a radio in it. Use analog gauges. Mid engine, but with a modern, fuel injected, computer controlled engine. 6 speed manual transmission. No automatic available. |
Cannot understand why anyone would want ac in a sports car??? May as well throw in auto, leather and gps while you are at it.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 22 2006, 04:09 PM
| QUOTE (siverson @ Mar 22 2006, 01:31 PM) |
| > If I lived near the coast, I would have done this years ago. That sounds like an excuse to me. Why do you have to live near the coast? You need higher real estate prices for manufacturing?!?! -Steve |
First you need a market, and the right weather to justify building an open car. We barely get 3 months a year when I would consider driving. I think a guy could get near the coast without being on the coast and have a hobby shop. Just not in my future for awhile. But we'll see...
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 22 2006, 04:17 PM
I like this engine. I wouldn't mind building a car around it.
Attached image(s)
Posted by: vortrex Mar 22 2006, 04:18 PM
| QUOTE (turboman808 @ Mar 22 2006, 01:59 PM) | ||
Cannot understand why anyone would want ac in a sports car??? May as well throw in auto, leather and gps while you are at it. |
I guess because in philly it's common to be in the 90's with humidity like the jungle. in the bay area I would not want it. but, there was no choice in '05 to NOT get AC with the elise.
Posted by: ClayPerrine Mar 22 2006, 05:27 PM
Ok turboman808 ... for you special deal. We will leave the heater out and you can drive it through a New York winter.
============================================================
You come spend June, July, and August in the DFW or Houston area without AC.
BTW.. mid July.. Low of 90+ degrees. High well over 100.
Houston is worse... you get the same heat, plus the humidity.
If you want to sell cars in the south, AC is mandatory. A heater is a luxury.
In SoCal, heat and AC are luxurys.
It all depends on where you live.
BTW.. my wife's 914 has AC that works, and mine will have AC. Neither of them have a heater. We don't need it here.
Posted by: turboman808 Mar 22 2006, 05:29 PM
Actualy I should be buying Daves car next week. It ain't got no stinking heater
Besides ya can't really take your toys out to play in the winter aorund here. 
Posted by: ClayPerrine Mar 22 2006, 05:33 PM
| QUOTE (turboman808 @ Mar 22 2006, 05:29 PM) |
| Actualy I should be buying Daves car next week. It ain't got no stinking heater Besides ya can't really take your toys out to play in the winter aorund here. |
If you don't have AC, you can't take your toys out during mid summer here.
Picture this... Black seats.. no top. 110 degree day... sun shining directly on the black vinyl seat.
Now sit down in a pair of shorts. The back of your legs will have permanent basket weave burns on them.
Posted by: turboman808 Mar 22 2006, 05:37 PM
Oh see now I love when it's 120. Riding my bicycle in the hills around austin when it's 120 is my idea of heaven.
Posted by: ClayPerrine Mar 22 2006, 05:42 PM
| QUOTE (turboman808 @ Mar 22 2006, 05:37 PM) |
| Oh see now I love when it's 120. Riding my bicycle in the hills around austin when it's 120 is my idea of heaven. |
I stand out on a big expanse of blacktop shagging pylons in 120degree weather too. It's fun!!
BUT!!!!
You are not driving to work in North Dallas traffic in a suit in 120 degree weather.
Makes a big difference when you can arrive at work smelling nice with your shirt dry.
With AC, I can drive my 914 to work and actually have some chance of enjoying my commute.
Posted by: Eddie Williams Mar 22 2006, 09:06 PM
I don't think I'd commute in DFW in my 914, no matter the weather. You guys are crazy, with even crazier roads.
Posted by: theol00 Mar 23 2006, 10:13 AM
...what about making money, unfortunately that is why car companies are in business - a lot of the essential sports car companies of the 60' and 70's (i.e. Triumph, Sunbeam & MG)have gone under - Porsche had to move upwards to stay in business and appeal to the masses....remember for a while Porsche was on the virge of bancruptcy
Posted by: grantsfo Mar 23 2006, 10:31 AM
You want an elemental sub 2500 lb car? Buy a used 987 Boxster with a 2.7, pull out the "boat anchor top mechanism" and bolt on a lieghtweight carbon fiber hard top, strip the interior down to a couple lieghtweight GT3 seats, pull all the sound insulation out of the car, replace the steel hood and trunk with carbonfiber lids, chuck the 60 lb stock muffler for an aftermarket system, bolt on some light weight wheels.
The Boxster isnt as big and bulky as some think.
Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 23 2006, 10:37 AM
Grant, that sounds like your Teener, just newer.
Posted by: ein 6er Mar 23 2006, 04:55 PM
| QUOTE (horizontally-opposed @ Mar 20 2006, 12:51 PM) |
| Just got back from Sebring... who's REALLY sweet silver 6 was that? Had a 914world.com sticker in the back! In a corral full of overpriced iron (and carbon-fiber, including a C-GT with $64,000 in options -- $16,000 in stitching, $7700 for calipers in black, and $8000 for "paint-to-sample" white), that silver 914 was the only car getting the once-over in the paddock by a couple of guys. I hung with them for a while and they had both owned 914s and wanted one again. Of course I directed them here... Point of the column, for those who didn't read it, wasn't so much an immediate call for 2,500-pound Porsches (a well-sorted 914 is WAY nicer to live with than an Elise at roughly the same weight). I was just thinking how cool it would be if Porsche would take the lead and impress us with how much weight it shaves with each new car instead of how many horses (and "extra" features) it's added. Could they target, say, 50 pounds per iteration? If the years went by and the horsepower stayed roughly where it's at, we could end up with faster, more enviro-friendly sports cars that are more fun to drive, own, and race, too. pete |
PETE!!! THAT WAS MINE!!!! thanks for the flowers!!!
sorry i missed you, i would have been a pleasure to meet you.
mine was definitely the least expensive porsche there.
doug
Posted by: Rand Mar 23 2006, 06:07 PM
What about building something like an Atom? If you want elemental and extreme performance, that's about as raw as it gets. I priced one with the features I want... $60k. There is some amazing engineering in that thing, but there's really not that much to it. Seems like $20k and the right team could put something together that's close enough to go collect bees in our epiglottis' and outperform anything under $200k.
Posted by: smdubovsky Mar 24 2006, 08:36 AM
| QUOTE |
| I will be doing a cross country with the GF in mine from philly to the bay area this summer. I have already done 8hrs non stop and it was very comfortable. the truck is plenty big enough for 2 duffle bags. |
Oh, I didn't say it was impossible just not what it was designed for. Like I said, if you found a woman who can pack for a week in a duffle bag, marry her;) BTW, a boxster has 3-4x that storage space (you can actually fit a pair of 5yr olds in the front trunk - we didn't drive it, but they just wanted to climb in.) Damon (series900 on pelican) & his copilot drove a Radical for a week in One Lap of America last year - ~5000mi. He fit everything in a large waterproof duffle that they bungied to the rear wing uprights. So, ANYTHINGS possible but definately not the target of the car.
| QUOTE |
how could your car weigh 2040 with a big 6 and cage, unless you stripped out other stuff? |
I don't know. I just bought the car (its still at Brads shop though he SHOULD have put it on a transporter by now). The # if from the POs corner balance. Could have been w/ no roof and an 1/8 tank of gas in autocross trim for all I know. It does have glass bumpers, no rockers, and headers (no heat), but some of the interior is still in it (no carpet and no backpad - the cage gets in the way of the latter). I'll have to re balance it once it gets here so I can verify/disprove the PO (though I have added steel flares).
FWIW, I don't think a 3L or 2L 6 weigh all that different (if both are running carbs). The crank and rods are about the only things that weigh appreciably more. The big difference is in the induction and transmissions which it kept.
SMD
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