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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Should carbs be a show-stopper for my 914 search?
Posted by: BigDBass Mar 23 2006, 03:19 PM
In my apparently endless search for the right 914, I've come upon decent candidates which I then discover have been carburated. I've basically treated that as "nothing to see here, move along", but.... what if one finds what is otherwise almost the ideal match in condition, price, color, original parts, location, except for lacking stock fuel injection?
References usually say just that it's an expensive proposition to convert back to if you manage to acquire the necessary parts. How difficult and expensive is this? What all is involved?
Posted by: ! Mar 23 2006, 03:22 PM
It depends... carbs with a proper rebuild and a cam? Or just a set of carbs because the FI was a pain in the ass.....
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Mar 23 2006, 03:30 PM
I would never let carbs keep me from buying the right car at the right price.
It is not that difficult to convert back to FI and not too expensive if you are patient in finding a system. Best would be a complete engine (running if possible) which you could strip and sell the remains. That way you get all the pieces.
The key is learning from the seller (with confidence) that the cam is stock. If not, you would have to replace the cam. In that case I would stay with the carbs until time for an engine rebuild.
Posted by: Joe Ricard Mar 23 2006, 03:30 PM
You can come see my car with Carbs. Not for sale though.
Duplicate my set up and you would be a happy camper promise.
Bring money and lots of it.
Posted by: BigDBass Mar 23 2006, 04:13 PM
Drat, the owner of my current prospect (that so far I REALLY like) that has me asking these questions has had the car a long time but paid for maintenance and, since he "thinks it has a carb" i doubt he knows if the cam is stock or not.
Posted by: lapuwali Mar 23 2006, 04:32 PM
The chances are better than even that it has a stock cam in it. You have to completely disassemble the engine to change the cam, and few people do so because of the expense involved, esp. if they have to pay someone else to do it for them.
If the stock EFI comes with in the box of parts, even if it "doesn't work", then I'd certainly consider such a car. The usual causes for "EFI doesn't work" are fixable with a bit of patience and very little money. Often, it's something as stupid as one broken wire. If you're not afraid to learn how to do the necessary rewiring, or you're willing to pay for a new FI harness from Bowlsby, then swapping back to FI shouldn't be a big deal.
That said, any car the PO swapped to carbs should be very carefully inspected, and you shouldn't take the PO's word for anything. A carb swap on an otherwise stock engine shows a lack of patience or sense on the part of the PO and/or his mechanic, or an unwillingness to spend more than the minimum amount of money to maintain the car, which doesn't bode well for the rest of the car. You're very likely to have to do quite a bit of maintenance on the car immediately to make up for shoddy maintenance work in the past. Count on doing things like replacing all of the suspension bushings, all of the wheel bearings, rebuilding brake calipers, etc. These are all things that are commonly ignored by people on the minimum maintainance schedule.
Posted by: SGB Mar 23 2006, 04:58 PM
| QUOTE (lapuwali @ Mar 23 2006, 05:32 PM) |
| (1) You have to completely disassemble the engine to change the cam, and few people do so because of the expense involved (2) A carb swap on an otherwise stock engine shows a lack of patience or sense (3) Count on doing things like replacing all of the suspension bushings, all of the wheel bearings, rebuilding brake calipers, etc. These are all things that are commonly ignored by people on the minimum maintainance schedule. |
1) true
2) a carb swap on a properly prepared engine shows just the opposite.
3) This is prolly true for any car.
I've got carbs with the right linkage, cam, manifolds, headers and exhaust. It is rock solid dependable, economical, and powerful too.
Posted by: street legal go-kart Mar 23 2006, 05:07 PM
Also unless the cam is some redikalus grind which the stock engine does not need anyways you can convert back to fi w/no problems.
The Black car has stock d-jet w/a moderate bump on the cam and runs better w/more tq than before.
I also did a ton of flow bench work on the heads and don't think the cam alone would show the hp and tq results w/out the head work.
Jus my 2-cts.
JT
Posted by: lapuwali Mar 23 2006, 05:47 PM
| QUOTE (SGB @ Mar 23 2006, 02:58 PM) | ||
1) true 2) a carb swap on a properly prepared engine shows just the opposite. 3) This is prolly true for any car. I've got carbs with the right linkage, cam, manifolds, headers and exhaust. It is rock solid dependable, economical, and powerful too. |
Agreed, and I left unspoken that carbs (plural) on a non-stock engine simply show the guy preferred carbs. No problem with that.
On the "prolly true of any car", I say, "not necessarily". My '71 came to me with a crappy single progressive Weber, which ran like crap. However, the wheel bearings, suspension bushings, tie-rods, etc. had all been replaced recently. The PPO (the guy I bought it from had only had it for 18 months before a 912 caught his eye), had gone through the car and done quite a few things "correctly". Even though it was a '71, it had a later passenger seat that had adjustable seat rails nicely welded in, and a later backpad to match. It had been repainted with a middling paintjob. Basically, the PPO had treated the car well. The only thing the PO did was to remove the perfectly working D-Jet because he thought the wiring harness "seemed brittle", and stuck on that crappy Weber.
The car was fortunate I got the car away from this guy, before he did any more damage.
Posted by: Bleyseng Mar 23 2006, 05:53 PM
| QUOTE (SGB @ Mar 23 2006, 02:58 PM) | ||
1) true 2) a carb swap on a properly prepared engine shows just the opposite. 3) This is prolly true for any car. I've got carbs with the right linkage, cam, manifolds, headers and exhaust. It is rock solid dependable, economical, and powerful too. |
"a carb swap on a properly prepared engine shows just the opposite."
thats usually not the case with 914's as DPO refuse to "fix" Djet and swap in a carb or set of carbs as a "easy fix". Even mechanics swap carbs in cuz "they are soo much better than FI". Usually the mechcanic doesn't have the training or knowledge on how to fix Djet.
or you have a mechanic butcher the Djet so it runs way too lean and a valve seat drops (See Blairs Black car).
Posted by: Rrrockhound Mar 23 2006, 06:27 PM
| QUOTE (BigDBass @ Mar 23 2006, 05:13 PM) |
| Drat, the owner of my current prospect (that so far I REALLY like) that has me asking these questions has had the car a long time but paid for maintenance and, since he "thinks it has a carb" i doubt he knows if the cam is stock or not. |
If you haven't seen the car yet, don't assume it's got carbs just because the present owner says it does. Sometimes dealers who don't know any better assume the FI is a carburetor. It happened to me.
Posted by: MecGen Mar 23 2006, 06:43 PM
Hi
I have always thought the same way, stock or nuthin.
So what I did was I kept the origional motor, with the origional injection, then bought a complete engine, tin and accessories included, played with that one, went carbs and cam, liked it so much I kept it.... 
Looking back (14 years) this was a good thing to do ... 
My car is going for sale, and the extra selling point is the OEM equipment. I recommend this to anyone owning an antique car. Kinda gives a nice insurance policy if interest or market changes.
If you buy a carbed 914, and want to go back to FI, you have to expect some seroius $$$ if you plan to buy part by part.
My car is 90% stock, except the motor, I love the sound. performance, feel, of my Dells sucking my air out of the cab (open top, no rain gutter). I wouldn't go back. I think no matter wich way you go its a win/win situation. Its a 914. 
+Karma for your search
Later
Posted by: GeorgeRud Mar 23 2006, 09:59 PM
Depending on the car's engine size (ie 1.7,1.8, or 2.0), I may be able to help with an engine with the stock FI intact if you're interested. PM me, I'm right by O'Hare Airport.
Posted by: trekkor Mar 23 2006, 11:27 PM
May I stir things up a bit?
KT
Posted by: BigDBass Mar 23 2006, 11:46 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Mar 23 2006, 11:27 PM) |
| May I stir things up a bit? |
By all means, do.
Posted by: trekkor Mar 24 2006, 12:07 AM
First off, I've not seen any data that there are any differences between any of the motors that used d-jet, l-jet or factory dual Solexs.
I've seen stock cammed motors that run fantastic.
( beat me at the a/x, too ) 
Carbs need an intial set-up and if the jets are wrong it will always run bad.
Going back to F.I. isn't big $$$.
You can buy my entire great running 2.0 with complete d-jet and exhaust for $1500.
I like the raw feel and sound of carbs.
The arguement that carbs are hard starting is just not something I'm experiencing here.
If you find a really nice car and it has carbs and runs well...You buy it 
KT
Posted by: SGB Mar 24 2006, 01:03 AM
If my car had FI when I bought it, I don't think I would intentionally carburate it. But the FI was gone. It ran pretty well with stock everything except weber 40 IDA carbs. HOWEVER, after putting the proper cam in AND manilfold AND heat exchengers AND muffler, the difference was quite amazing. I've actually never driveb a 914 with fuel injection.
Posted by: lapuwali Mar 24 2006, 01:03 AM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Mar 23 2006, 10:07 PM) |
| First off, I've not seen any data that there are any differences between any of the motors that used d-jet, l-jet or factory dual Solexs. I've seen stock cammed motors that run fantastic. ( beat me at the a/x, too ) Carbs need an intial set-up and if the jets are wrong it will always run bad. Going back to F.I. isn't big $$$. You can buy my entire great running 2.0 with complete d-jet and exhaust for $1500. I like the raw feel and sound of carbs. The arguement that carbs are hard starting is just not something I'm experiencing here. If you find a really nice car and it has carbs and runs well...You buy it KT |
The Euro 1.8s with Solexes ran a totally different tune than the US 1.8s with L-Jet. Much higher compression, for one thing.
I wouldn't expect big differences in engine tune between D-Jet and L-Jet.
AX isn't a power game, so carbs v. FI aren't really an issue. Getting good power and good drivability and good mileage is very difficult with carbs. You can have all three with EFI.
Posted by: wbergtho Mar 24 2006, 02:03 AM
Carbs or FI aside. If you look at the rest of the car for a moment and disregard what type of fuel delivery...and find a real nice rust free car...I'd be inclined to buy it for the right price. Let's be real here...914's are over 30 years old now. A rust free carbed 914 wouldn't scare me away by any means! If you really want the FI...buy the bits...and put it back on. The chassis is way more important than the fuel delievery system.
Bill
Posted by: jkeyzer Mar 24 2006, 03:24 AM
Rusty car with FI vs. rust free with carbs? Motors are swappable.
Posted by: Jeff Nelson Mar 24 2006, 09:29 AM
Be very wary if the car is equiped with a single carb set-up. These are the pits; hard to start, uneven response. A good running FI set-up is wonderful. I never cease to be amazed at how well my stock D-jet starts and runs.
When I bought my car it had a single, progressive carb. It was otherwise clean, the seller was informed and did the maintanance and it came with a box of all the FI bits needed to convert it back. (The car came to the seller with dual Webers, he didn't convert it to carbs but he did install the single carb set-up so his buddy could have the Webers.) The bad news was the cam. It was strongly suspected that the engine was rebuilt and cammed for the dual carbs. Too bad it didn't come with duals, I might be running them now.
I later bought a rough, but complete, running parts car with injection, swapped the motor and never looked back. It's not until I rebuilt my motor and installed a slightly hotter cam (Web 73) that I felt the need to change things for tunability and opted for Megasquirt.
For someone just getting into a 914 and not looking forward to a lot of work (which you will do eventually anyway) try to get something that is already sorted out. But finding a car with as little rust as possible is the important thing (unless you like to weld).
Posted by: rhodyguy Mar 24 2006, 09:46 AM
buy the best body you can. single carb, dual carbs, fi, no engine at all. i'll take the lesser carbed car with minimal rust anyday. the "your car will run like crap with carbs and a fi cam" statement is a bunch of nonsense. a buggered up d-jet or l-jet more than likely won't run, the owner will be in fear of driving more than 50 miles due to the fear of the AAA call, or the car will run poorly at best. misrunning dual carb setups run that way due to being poorly setup.
k
Posted by: trekkor Mar 24 2006, 09:54 AM
Get the best car you can find/afford.
Worry about your ideal motor trim later.
KT
Posted by: ninefourteener Mar 24 2006, 10:21 AM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Mar 23 2006, 10:07 PM) |
| If you find a really nice car and it has carbs and runs well...You buy it |
Couldn't agree more......
My first teener was a mild 1.7 with dual Dellortos..... not a bullett, but reliable as hell, easy to work on, never had a problem. I paid $3900... worth every penny.
My current, is a 2.0, with Dual Solex, and a PROPER engine/cam rebuild (over $4k in engine reciepts)............ and absolutely no rust whatsoever...... not even on the battery tray..... Not to mention the new tranny, interior, etc.... I snatched it up quicker than you'd believe. And she's QUICK.
Yup... paid $7500 for it..... and have no regrets at all. May seem high... but it was EXACTLY what I wanted.... I wanted it now.... so I bought it.
Posted by: Bleyseng Mar 24 2006, 10:33 AM
dual solex's? what size are they?
Posted by: ninefourteener Mar 24 2006, 10:49 AM
On the reciepts they say 40mm
My car has a wacky cam in it.... puts out 4 times the legal limit of pollutants...... I couldn't get it to even come CLOSE during emissions testing... even when I drove through the inspection lanes idling at like 350 RPM, and running as lean as I possibly could.
And it runs UBER-rich.... the fumes will kill you when you start it up. But once it gets warm... runs like a bat out of hell.... doesn't smoke or anything.... even running that rich... thats just the way it was tunes I guess (The PO did it, I just bought it that way)
I can leave tire marks over 50 feet long... and it actually BEAT my Acura RSX in a straight-line drag race (My wife was driving the RSX)
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