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Posted by: siverson Oct 14 2003, 06:07 PM

Hi,

Thanks for the advice on the seatbelts. A pair of black Schroth Profi III 5-point belts arrived yesterday (ordered Friday!) and while kinda pricy, it was a simple purchase and they appear to be very high quality.

http://www.subesports.com/products/?cartID=2003101416460566.27.59.86&cat=Harness+Belts&brand=Schroth&prodID=587

Now, where to mount... I've researched this a bit, but have read somewhat conflicting statements. The Schroth manual specifically says not to mount the belts on a seat with a headrest, like the 914, but that appears to be what everyone does. Hmmm... Anyways, before I start drilling holes, I thought I'd run this by you guys to see what you think. The red dots denote where I'll mount the shoulder eye bolts (with backing plate) and the red line is where I'll cut (another) hole for the sub strap. Note I lowered the drivers floor about 1", that's why the seat is already cut up a bit.

I'm 6'6", so those eye bolts would be parallel to my shoulders (0 degrees), and the sub-strap would be straight down. The lap belts will go to stock mounting points.





Whaddya think?

Another random question: I'm hoping my car passes tech inspection when complete (!)... Do I -really- need to keep all these fugly tags on the new seatbelts. Each belt (10 total for the car) has 2 tags with the date and warning, that Schroth emphasizes must stay on the belt. Does tech inspection care about the date (2008) that these belts "expire"?

Also, for the really curious, this is how I ended up resolving my old brake line issue (http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=2&t=4730&hl=siverson). Much better, huh?





-Steve

Posted by: SirAndy Oct 14 2003, 06:19 PM

on the race cars, we cut the cross section (marked green) out, remove the seat rails and mounts (welded to the floor, you'll need to drill out the spot welds).

that way, you don't have to chop your seat and you can mount it flat onto the floor.

Andy


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Posted by: siverson Oct 14 2003, 06:26 PM

Hmmm... I hadn't even thought of that (removing the brace in front of the seats). Isn't that a structural component? Or does a cage (race car) make that not required?

-Steve

Posted by: SirAndy Oct 14 2003, 06:32 PM

Posted by: Jeroen Oct 14 2003, 07:03 PM

Get some real seats and do as Andy suggest

cheers,

Jeroen

Posted by: drew365 Oct 14 2003, 07:45 PM

Steve; how are you going to keep the belts from slipping off your shoulders? Also, how are you going to remount the access cover in the firewall? I want to cut an opening like that but haven't decided on a clean way to remount the door.

Posted by: campbellcj Oct 14 2003, 11:24 PM

Ideally you should have a race seat with harness slots, to keep the belts positioned correctly w/o a chance to slip off. The GCR's of most of the sanctioning bodies will specify the allowable angles for the shoulder belts and sub belt. You also are not supposed to have more than one belt connected to the same mount point (which your pic wouldn't, but I thought I'd throw that in anyhow). The more serious groups will tech your belt expire dates too. If you are just planning to to autox then you can "get away" with a lot more in tech inspection, in fact the PCA autox techs I have encountered (in years past) essentially just gave the car a 30 second walkaround and eyeballed the battery mount and wheel bearing freeplay. DE's typically have no tech inspection at all, so it's up to you...

Posted by: campbellcj Oct 14 2003, 11:28 PM

Hey Andy / Brad / Anybody - what is the best technique/tool to use to remove that crossbar and the seat brackets? Are there really just spot welds that can be drilled and then the pieces come out, or do you have to do some major cutting and grinding? Are you left with hole(s) in the floor or is it a clean procedure that doesn't need repairs in the aftermath?

Posted by: SirAndy Oct 14 2003, 11:31 PM

Posted by: siverson Oct 14 2003, 11:41 PM

> Ideally you should have a race seat with harness slots

Yeah, but (i) I actually really like how the stock 914 seat looks, and (ii) every race seat I've tried consumes some headroom, and I need all I have...

Thanks for the tips everyone. I think I'll remove the cross bar, get another seat, and mount in the locations I've diagramed.

I really need to get this done! I just took another lap around the block in 914, and it's fun, but quite interesting without seats, seatbelts, or windsheild (or bumpers, shift knob, rear trunk, engine lid, interior...)

-Steve

Posted by: seanery Oct 15 2003, 07:46 AM

a kirkey aluminum mounted to the floor will keep ya low without eating any headroom.

Posted by: fiid Oct 15 2003, 04:35 PM

I had a couple of questions about this.

Is it okay to bolt the belts to the firewall or should there be a bar accross the back there???

Is it possible to use a 5 point as a 4 point for street driving and then take out the seat cusion (or have a seat cushion with a hole in it) for track use??

Another (slightly offtopic) question - I want to take out my backpad and carpet the firewall. Is there a recommended fireproof carpet for this??

l8r,

Fiid.

Posted by: seanery Oct 15 2003, 04:38 PM

I don't see a problem using a 5 point as a 4 point, but most states do not recognize them as DOT approved. You may run into trouble, maybe not.
I think a small strip of plate behind the firewall would spread the stress of an impact if it were to happen. Large washer on the floor for subbelt.

I'd get the same carpet as the RS & RSR guys get.

my 2 cents.

Posted by: brant Oct 15 2003, 05:07 PM

This is contrary opinion to what is stated above...
but like most things in life there is often conflicting thoughts...

I originally cut out the cross section Andy is referring to about 6-8 years back in order to facilitate my race seat for PCA club racing.

Locally I use Allen Johnson as my builder, guru, and sounding board. He hated the idea. He insists that the boxing of between the longs is a structurally important area..

Remember yesterday, the thread about running a brace/plate between the longs at the back firewall...
well this was allen's argument too, that the original cross brace was important and provided torsional rigidity in helping prevent flex...

To each his own, but I build a new cross brace out of square tubing and put it back into my car. I also put it back in about 6inches forward of the original so that I could still leave my seat on the floor....

One more thing... Silverson, some sanctioning bodies (PCA club racing for example) will require the seat to have belt slots on the sides. Thus the reason I changed to a race seat that 6years back.

$.02
brant

Posted by: TimT Oct 15 2003, 07:22 PM

if your seat doesnt have belt slots, you can get a sternum latch for most belts...

I hate instructing in cars that have 5 or 6 point belts with stock seats.

Posted by: d914 Oct 16 2003, 06:23 PM

harness bar with loops would keep the belts in place and allow the belts to be attached to the floor with reinforcing plates.

I do like the idea o remove the cross brace, especially after I just spent good money having it knocthed to lower my seat....

Posted by: KenH Oct 16 2003, 11:00 PM

My .02 cents

Use a Harness bar with the belt loops. They are at the right heigth and spacing to hold you firmly in place with stock seats for those "off the track rides". Trust me I know. They do not slip off the sholders when snugged up. The "bar mount" is higher than mounting on the rear fire wall and allows the belt the go streight bach from your shoulders.

Lap belts can be bolted to the original seat belt threded holes.

Floor belt can be mounted just in front of the seat with a big washer under the chassis.

Ken

Posted by: siverson Oct 17 2003, 12:51 AM

Well, I finished the drivers side tonight. I ended up deciding against cutting the cross bar, and just notched the seat a little more. My reasoning was the brace may be structural, but the front of the seat certainly isn't, and once I get them recovered and the bottom pad back on, the seat should look nice and basically stock (minus the crotch strap, bolted to the floor, and 3.6 liter engine about 3" from your head ).

I also ended up bolting the shoulder straps to the firewall. I can't really imagine how these could possibly slip off my shoulders (I can't wiggle out of them if I try), but I also don't have much experience wearing 5-point seat belts so maybe I'll learn soon enough...

Here are some pictures, complete with metal shavings everyone from grinding the original seat braces off...

YMMV.

-Steve


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Posted by: siverson Oct 17 2003, 12:52 AM

From the top...


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Posted by: siverson Oct 17 2003, 12:52 AM

Shoulder


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Posted by: siverson Oct 17 2003, 12:53 AM

Crotch (this thread has the word crotch just one too many times...)


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Posted by: siverson Oct 17 2003, 12:54 AM

Bottom under the driver seat. Note how a "U" was cut in the floor and the floor lowered about an inch. The bolts on the right are for the seat, the bolt in the left with the backing plate is for the crotch strap.


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Posted by: siverson Oct 17 2003, 12:55 AM

Me (hoping someone doesn't walk in on me taking pictures of myself strapped into 914 by myself in the garage; but of course then I go post them on the Internet...)


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Posted by: siverson Oct 17 2003, 12:57 AM

Vrooooom!


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Posted by: siverson Oct 17 2003, 01:03 AM

Oh, I did end up mounting them slightly lower on the firewall than my original red dots. I didn't want to have to go through the "sandwiched" area of the firewall, and they still are almost perfectly horizontal when on.

-Steve