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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ ever wondered about the "donuts" on the bottom of your car?
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 02:43 PM
ever wondered about the "donuts" on the bottom of your car? 
please excuse the poor quality of the picture, the original is HUGE and way too big for my scanner, so i pieced it together out of 4 scans ...
the four round "donuts" on the bottom of your car (one on each corner) were used to hang the car from the ceiling on the assembly line!
Orientation Corrected! 
Posted by: trekkor Nov 11 2006, 02:48 PM
That's very cool.
that's funny, I alway's thought I got "donuts" on the bottom of my car from driving through the back alley behind that coffee shop after the "day olds" were tossed out.
great picture. i like those assembly line shots. i really do.
KT
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Nov 11 2006, 02:50 PM
Interesting picture, thanks SirAndy 
It's curious to see the car in the foreground doesn't have side marker lights, whereas the 914 on the line immediately behind it does 
. I'd think they'd build all the same spec cars as a "batch". This pic also belongs on the concours forum so those guyz can see the finish in the wheel wells and on those brake calipers.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 02:53 PM
Interesting picture, thanks SirAndy
i've got a big version too, 3796 pixel x 2555 pixel. also got the photoshop .psd file ...
the original is from DGVWPB, but the format is way too big for my scanner ...
Andy
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 02:56 PM
I'd think they'd build all the same spec cars as a "batch".
i think the "batch" was by body-color and not target market ...
Andy
Posted by: wheelo Nov 11 2006, 02:57 PM
awesome knowledge, and pic.....thnx Andy
- M
Posted by: trekkor Nov 11 2006, 02:59 PM
The first car also has "euro" signal markers. Does the second have the solid "usa" ambers?
KT
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 03:02 PM
The first car also has "euro" signal markers. Does the second have the solid "usa" ambers?
nope, checked on that as well, the other ones in the line all have sidemarkers *and* euro blinkers. it seems they were not for the US market after all. maybe some of the other european countries had sidemarkers as well?
Andy
Posted by: DEC Nov 11 2006, 03:11 PM
The first car also has "euro" signal markers. Does the second have the solid "usa" ambers?
nope, checked on that as well, the other ones in the line all have sidemarkers *and* euro blinkers. it seems they were not for the US market after all. maybe some of the other european countries had sidemarkers as well?
AndyIf I remember right the Italian version had sidemarkers
Wilco
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 03:27 PM
i like those assembly line shots. i really do.
in that case, here's one more, just for you ...
AndyAttached image(s)
Posted by: GWN7 Nov 11 2006, 04:20 PM
I guess this sort of proves the "donuts" were not ment to be jacking points.......
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 04:36 PM
I guess this sort of proves the "donuts" were not ment to be jacking points.......
yes. in fact, at least the front donuts are nowhere near the framerail. they're right under an unsupported part of the front floorpan ...
Andy
Posted by: dmenche914 Nov 11 2006, 04:49 PM
Thats a good thing to know. i figuresd they was some jig alignment thingy or something like that
now does anyone know what then round acess ports arre for, one on the drivers foot well floor, one in the rear trunk that i can think of right now, the are sealed up wth sealer,a dn don't appear to go anyplace that needs acsess.
Inquiring mind wants to know????????
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 05:01 PM
now does anyone know what then round acess ports arre for, one on the drivers foot well floor, one in the rear trunk that i can think of right now, the are sealed up wth sealer,a dn don't appear to go anyplace that needs acsess.
i believe they were access openings for the "robots" (if you could call them that in 1969) doing the spotwelding of the chassis ...
any other explanation i have heard does not make any sense ...
Andy
Posted by: Hammy Nov 11 2006, 05:02 PM
now does anyone know what then round acess ports arre for, one on the drivers foot well floor, one in the rear trunk that i can think of right now, the are sealed up wth sealer,a dn don't appear to go anyplace that needs acsess.
i believe they were access openings for the "robots" (if you could call them that in 1969) doing the spotwelding of the chassis ...
any other explanation i have heard does not make any sense ...
AndyVent hole for your nuts
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 05:05 PM
Vent hole for your nuts
actually, the BIG one in the rear trunk, slightly off to the right side, towards the front of the car, that one is removable and there's a "cup" that fits in there to make room for some parts only used on the sportomatic cars ...
Andy
Posted by: Hammy Nov 11 2006, 05:07 PM
Vent hole for your nuts
actually, the BIG one in the rear trunk, slightly off to the right side, towards the front of the car, that one is removable and there's a "cup" that fits in there to make room for some parts only used on the sportomatic cars ...
AndyWere they anticipating a lot of sportos to be made?
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 11 2006, 05:19 PM
Were they anticipating a lot of sportos to be made?
probably not, but it's easier to have them all stamped the same, that way, you don't have to make different tooling for the sportocars or cut them by hand.
same reason why all /4 cars have the stamped areas for the /6 oiltank, even thought less than 3% of all 914s were /6s ...
Andy
Posted by: JPB Nov 11 2006, 06:15 PM
Ha, cool info. Now I don't feel so bad for removing them when I redid my floors 
Posted by: KELTY360 Nov 11 2006, 06:20 PM
Do you have any assembly line pictures where they install the rust? 
Posted by: dmenche914 Nov 11 2006, 07:51 PM
that was done prior to painting, Fritz would take fine powdered salt, and randomly dust the car with teh stuff. This would assure rust in the coming years.
for the robots, sounds logical, however i jsut don't see what any robot would need to acess via these holes, add the lack of symetry side to side, thats wierd too, i would think the same welding operation would happen on both left and right sides. add the cost and labor to close the holes that measn there must be some really good reason to have them. heck they cheap'd out on zinc body coating!
Posted by: Tobra Nov 12 2006, 10:07 AM
I guess this sort of proves the "donuts" were not ment to be jacking points.......
but that is where I always put the stands, I use the jack points with the little deal you stick in so you can use a floor jack.
what i would not give to have one of those cars in that color pic
Posted by: JPB Nov 12 2006, 10:25 AM
that was done prior to painting, Fritz would take fine powdered salt, and randomly dust the car with teh stuff. This would assure rust in the coming years.
for the robots, sounds logical, however i jsut don't see what any robot would need to acess via these holes, add the lack of symetry side to side, thats wierd too, i would think the same welding operation would happen on both left and right sides. add the cost and labor to close the holes that measn there must be some really good reason to have them. heck they cheap'd out on zinc body coating!
Schtainlezzteel! Ahr yooo craaaaazy? Hoz dem shuckerz gonnaruzt?
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 12 2006, 03:24 PM
Well actually...from a 1973 914 paint code booklet...
Attached image(s)
Posted by: McMark Nov 12 2006, 07:51 PM
Dipped in water...
Maybe the holes were for drainage, not spotweld robots.
Posted by: chris914 Nov 13 2006, 01:55 AM
Are those Porsche or VW manufacturing plants?
Posted by: dmenche914 Nov 13 2006, 08:07 AM
I was thinking more zinc galvenizing (electroplated) rather than zinc phosphate paint, world of difference! If the metal panels had been galvenized prior to forming, then all surfaces including between lapped seams would be protected.
the 914's bodies are by Karmann (ie karmann Ghia) Karmann built nearly all the VW convertables, Bugs, Ghias, Rabbits, and I believe still do today. Karman also (among other coach builders) built 356's for Porsche.
914's was a joint VW /Porsche project, bodies by Karmann.
Sold by Porsche dealers in America, VW dealers in Europe.
Our engine was a VW Bus engine also used in the VW 411/412 series Our D-Jets were in the worlds first mass produced FI car, the VW type I motor based squareback /nothback, fast back series.
Posted by: Eric_Shea Nov 13 2006, 10:24 AM
Love those pictures.
Brake rotors with the hats painted black. Pat, you gett'n this?
Also, I think the round holes on the floor pan are for spot welder acess. Just a semi-educated guess, not a fact.
Posted by: Nickm1 Nov 13 2006, 11:15 AM
What is that giant wheel in the very back of the first picture?
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 13 2006, 11:21 AM
What is that giant wheel in the very back of the first picture?
it's neither giant nor in the very back ...
just hangs off to the side waiting to be mounted ...
Andy
Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 13 2006, 11:26 AM
andy,
didn't you post something about this last year?
i thought you had said they were used by the factory as a pivot point to slide the car around or something.
anyway.......thanks for the post.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 13 2006, 11:36 AM
andy,
didn't you post something about this last year?
i thought you had said they were used by the factory as a pivot point to slide the car around or something.
you got it half right ...
the donuts are also used by the celette bench as reference points. my comment was about the thread where the factory was restoring an original /6 and had it on the celette bench, which you can roll around while working on the car.
Andy
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 13 2006, 04:06 PM
I would like to see the big original pix
here's the large scan 19" x 13", ~2 MB jpg ...
http://www.914world.com/pix/large.jpg
Andy
Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 13 2006, 04:15 PM
third car has solid amber turn signal lenses...
So car 1) euro 2) italy? 3) USA
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 13 2006, 04:28 PM
third car has solid amber turn signal lenses...
So car 1) euro 2) italy? 3) USA
for all i know, one of them signal orange ones in the second row on the other side could be my car!
Andy
Posted by: cooltimes Nov 13 2006, 04:46 PM
I would like to see the big original pix
here's the large scan 19" x 13", ~2 MB jpg ...
http://www.914world.com/pix/large.jpg
AndyWOW.. Now that is big.. Never knew a photo could be so clear zooming in on a resolution like that. Usually they go murky.
Thank you Andy.
Made my day better.
MikeCool
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 13 2006, 05:15 PM
WOW.. Now that is big.. Never knew a photo could be so clear zooming in on a resolution like that. Usually they go murky.
no zoom, that's actually the original size of the photo i have. i wasn't lying when i said it was too big for my scanner to scan in one piece ...
Andy
Posted by: SGB Nov 13 2006, 09:02 PM
I'm sorry to say it does not look like a fun job at all.
Posted by: Pat Garvey Nov 13 2006, 09:23 PM
Love those pictures.
Brake rotors with the hats painted black. Pat, you gett'n this?
Also, I think the round holes on the floor pan are for spot welder acess. Just a semi-educated guess, not a fact.
Got it Eric!
I was 99.9% certain anyway, but it's great to have confirmation.
Andy, WHERE do you come up with this syuff?
Posted by: JOHNMAN Nov 13 2006, 09:38 PM
Well that confirms what my Dad told me about the 914 primer coats that I have found on all the cars I have worked on.
He told me that the original literature described that they were dip painted. From what you posted, it is describing e-coated primer. That is what I thought I was looking at when I scrape tar out of the interior of these cars. The very thin, very hard coat of grey paint looks to me to be e-coat.
I am amazed that this technology dates that far back.
However, the zinc phosphate dip is just one of the pretreatment steps. (common part of e-coating processes today)
Posted by: JOHNMAN Nov 13 2006, 09:54 PM
That big pic is a mirror image.
Check out the starter on the transmission just under the "not giant" tire and you will see the very clean, very new trans with the starter on the wrong side.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 13 2006, 10:12 PM
That big pic is a mirror image.
Check out the starter on the transmission just under the "not giant" tire and you will see the very clean, very new trans with the starter on the wrong side.
haha, you're right!
i was wondering why they all didn't have any drivers side mirrors, now i know!
well, the pic was printed this way in DGVWPB, someone messed up big time ...
Andy
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 14 2006, 10:07 AM
third car has solid amber turn signal lenses...
So car 1) euro 2) italy? 3) USA
second car has euro turn signal lens and side markers.
Posted by: PinetreePorsche Nov 15 2006, 08:30 AM
Sir A: I get the image into my "paint" progeam, and flipped it--that should cure the starter-on-the-wrong-side-of-the-transmission problem. But the print came out horrible. That was off the small one, and I thought the big wone would overload my paint thingy. So I wondered: can you make available, for your cost, decent copies in approx 81/2 x 11 size, flipped to get the l-r issue right. And mail them to us, if we send a buck or two? After all, it's capitalism that enables us all to maintain our cars! -Chris H. , "PinetreePorsche"
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 15 2006, 11:32 AM
So I wondered: can you make available, for your cost, decent copies in approx 81/2 x 11 size, flipped to get the l-r issue right.
hmmm, i bet kinkos could make decent color copies in the original size (~ 19"x13") ....
Andy
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 15 2006, 11:34 AM
if you are going to bother with that let me shoot a clear pic of the picture without the splicing.....I have a copy of the book too.
Posted by: PinetreePorsche Nov 15 2006, 07:19 PM
if you are going to bother with that let me shoot a clear pic of the picture without the splicing.....I have a copy of the book too.
If you do it (I hope you do, if it has no splice lines/irregularities), do the reverse if possible, as that seems the accurate "real world" assy. line. Let me/us know/ If they're pretty big, sounds li8ke they should be mailed in a tube to avoid folding. -C
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 15 2006, 08:01 PM
its a two page photo in the book so I'll dig out the gear and shoot it with the digital Nikon tonight.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 16 2006, 01:07 PM
its a two page photo in the book so I'll dig out the gear and shoot it with the digital Nikon tonight.
Geoff took a pic with the camera, in the right orientation. it turned out great ...http://www.914world.com/pix/factorypic.jpg (7.3" x 4.9", 2.8 MB, 300 dpi)
AndyPS: i still think i'll go down to kinkos and try a color copy in the original size. we'll see how that turns out ...
Posted by: LvSteveH Nov 16 2006, 11:29 PM
Geoff took a pic with the camera, in the right orientation. it turned out great ...http://www.914world.com/pix/factorypic.jpg (7.3" x 4.9", 2.8 MB, 300 dpi)
AndyThat's amazing, I think I need a better camera. Thanks Geoff!
Posted by: JazonJJordan Nov 13 2009, 09:17 PM
(I realize this is a 3 year old thread-)
I have enjoyed this great history and thanks to everyone that added to.
But correct me if force application differs as these donuts still support 100% of the vehicle weight at the point on the assembly line.
Is it that they were not full weight- no powerplant yet-
Or they were all lifted at one time equally-
Sort of like trying to lift a foam egg carton by the corner and the rest will sag under the weight of the eggs?
Is this why; when shop racked, the mechanics often lift the car to no (seeming) ill effects? That would make good sense- if so.
-Thanks-
Posted by: McMark Nov 13 2009, 09:28 PM
Yeah, if you jack up the front of the car by the 'donut' you're getting a MUCH higher percentage of the total weight of the car focused on that one unsupported point. If you hit all four 'donuts' at the same time, they support the weight just fine. The rears are on the longitudinal, so they are fine to jack the car up by.
Posted by: r_towle Nov 13 2009, 09:45 PM
With the car on four jack stands and the motor in place...all jack stands on the donuts...you can lift up the front of the car with one person.
To me that means there is not alot of weight on the front donuts.
I never jack from the front donuts...then I can put the jack stand there..
rich
Posted by: ClayPerrine Nov 13 2009, 10:58 PM
I know what the round disks on the floor pans, the trunk pan and other places were for. I actually noticed the same thing in a 356 that I was working on, and Al Zim showed me a video he has of the 356 Chassis assembly process. Seems that each stamped panel is placed on a jig, and the hole is used to align it and lock it into place for welding. After the chassis is completed, it is removed from the jig, and the plugs inserted.
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