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914World.com _ 914World Garage _ Pissed off & need advise
Posted by: carr914 Mar 2 2009, 06:35 PM
Found out today that while the shop was working on my 914-6, one of the flunky's remove & destoyed my sticker from the door-jam. I had made it Perfectly Clear that this sticker was not to be touched and to be protected during the restoration. But now it's gone. 
I was told that you can get them from Porsche? 
I know that George sells replicas, but how do you get them perforated?
Pissed & confused in Tampa,
T.C.
Posted by: watsonrx13 Mar 2 2009, 06:46 PM
Damn TC.... that SUCKS....
-- Rob
Posted by: tod914 Mar 2 2009, 06:50 PM
What about the possibility of taking one of George's stickers to a printer or label shop. Have them replicate it with the vin number transparent instead of perferated. Has anyone contacted Porsche to see if they can stamp one of George's labels instead of one of the new style they provide?
Posted by: carr914 Mar 2 2009, 06:54 PM
I want one perforated as it was or there is no need for a sticker. This is a 19,000 mile fairly early 914-6.
T.C.
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Mar 2 2009, 06:58 PM
That sucks big time, but there is not a lot that can be done about it now. Talk to the shop owner, and let him know that the value of your restoration has just been diminished, and you expect to be compensated accordingly.
I would get a new vin sticker made from Porsche. I know that they don't look the same as the old ones.
I worry that perforating one of AA's stickers could be considered a VIN crime if your car inspector was having a bad day, or just wanted to be hard nosed. Its one of those things that would probably never happen, but if it did it could land you in a lot of trouble.
You might loose points in concourse for having the modern vin sticker, but its better then having your car in an impound lot while the mess is worked out.
Zach
Posted by: tod914 Mar 2 2009, 07:04 PM
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=84716&st=0
No reason why one of these couldnt be made with a "perferated" look texture on the silver, along with the numbers being either transparent or body color. Just a suggestion.
Here is an old thread on this for you. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=25015&hl=
Contact partsman. Maybe he can help
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=25169&hl=
Good luck, hope it pans out.
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 2 2009, 07:16 PM
I was told that you can get them from Porsche?
Yes. And no. You can get a replacement sticker, however, it will look nothing like the original ...
The repros AA sells are a close match, but you'll have to find a way to perforate them ...
Andy
Posted by: Pat Garvey Mar 2 2009, 07:21 PM
Gotta say...this really sucks! I'd be taking the shop foreman to task over this. Money lost & no reason for it. Hard to say just what that original label is worth, but it approximates priceless!
Pat
Posted by: tod914 Mar 2 2009, 07:31 PM
Read those threads Pat? I'm under the impression partsman whom works at a Porsche dealership can get them. The old style not the new unless I read into wrong.
Posted by: rick 918-S Mar 2 2009, 07:34 PM
I would use a leather hole punch or a tubular knife and spend about a month practicing making the perforations. It wouldn't take a lot of force to cut the sticker. A little pressure on a rubber backing and the mark would be there. Your not changing the VIN. your replacing a sticker with the same appearance as the factory sticker. Where's the crime. IMHO the shop comitted the crime. 
Posted by: Al Meredith Mar 2 2009, 07:38 PM
I need one for my 914-6 also. I have the origional that was scraped off the door jam and I have one of AAs repo. I wonder if Mike Z or someone in the graphics business could repo one with the perferations ??? Al
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 2 2009, 07:48 PM
Read those threads Pat? I'm under the impression partsman whom works at a Porsche dealership can get them. The old style not the new unless I read into wrong.
This is what you get from the dealer ...
Note:
- Different look
- 911 part number
- Wrong weight
- Not perforated
Andy
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 2 2009, 09:48 PM
That totally Sucks .Those guys have been around for a long time and know better. They owe you BIG.
Posted by: LarryR Mar 2 2009, 09:48 PM
Read those threads Pat? I'm under the impression partsman whom works at a Porsche dealership can get them. The old style not the new unless I read into wrong.
This is what you get from the dealer ...
Note:
- Different look
- 911 part number
- Wrong weight
- Not perforated
AndyLOL 3k pound 914!!!!
Posted by: FourBlades Mar 2 2009, 09:54 PM
That is a drag T.C... Sorry to hear about it. I think if someone wants your car
they will overlook this detail. Not all collectors plan to show their cars in a
concours. I think most just want to have one, hmm, good poll maybe?
Someone out there has got to be able to make these. I am sure people
would pay $50 for a perfect replica with their VIN number. Isn't there anyone
in the printing business who can do it? What about laser cutting the numbers
on a CNC machine? Take the sticker, tape it to a piece of metal, zap with a
laser cutter?
I screwed my own up on the Rockin 914 using a wire wheel and being just
plain careless. I wheeled about 1/3 of the sticker
to nothing in one second of not paying attention.
Cover your sticker with painters tape followed by strong duct tape before
your gets f-ed up too.
John
Posted by: carr914 Mar 2 2009, 10:05 PM
That totally Sucks .Those guys have been around for a long time and know better. They owe you BIG.
Not only have they been around a long time, I TOLD them that sticker needed to stay and not be screwed up.
I've been in contact with partsman, he's been promoted, and thinks all he can get are the black labels with the 911 parts#. He's going to check, though.
I will be on the horn tomorrow seeking a solution. At least I have a picture to go off of.
T.C.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 2 2009, 10:09 PM
That is a drag T.C... Sorry to hear about it. I think if someone wants your car
they will overlook this detail. Not all collectors plan to show their cars in a
concours.
John
The good thing is I don't plan on ever getting rid of this car. I've had a lot of 914s - now in restoring this 914-6 back from the grave, I get to do it my way, with all the right parts. It's a keeper.
T.C.
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 2 2009, 10:29 PM
Euro cars had no sticker ?
Posted by: Lavanaut Mar 2 2009, 10:43 PM
Oh man I would be absolutely LIVID over this TC, that's inexcusable. I'd have lost my shit if when I found out if I'd been in your place. Ugh. 
Posted by: Lavanaut Mar 2 2009, 10:46 PM
Euro cars had no sticker ?
True but then he's gotta yank the windshield VIN, etc. as well. That would be tough to stomach. Probably a lot better off taking the time to find a perfect or near perfect replacement, whatever the cost, since the paint shop is gonna be on the hook to pick up the tab.
Posted by: zambezi Mar 2 2009, 10:48 PM
I would think making the VIN perforations could be done with some practice and by making a jig with the number layout, but the anti-tamper circular impressions would be harder. Or does the Auto Atlanta stickers already have those?
JIM
Posted by: tod914 Mar 2 2009, 10:56 PM
The anti-tamper impressions could be made in the texture of the sticker. A good photoshop artist/print decal place should be able
to do that.
Posted by: mojorisen914 Mar 2 2009, 11:54 PM
Really sorry to hear that TC. The car is NOW worthless; maybe you should sell it to me 
I think a Poll is in order for what should be done about replacing the sticker. This way; if it happens again to someone then most people would be on the same sheet of music for what is an acceptable solution.
A. Replace it with the Porsche replacement sticker
B. Use the one from George (AA)
C. Have a printing shop make an exact replacement
D. Don't even worry about it; no one looks at the thing to start with.
Posted by: burton73 Mar 3 2009, 12:18 AM
TC.
Very sorry to hear of this. I went over this with my die cutter several weeks ago as I have the same problem on #41 and they can get small round dies to safety cut but can not put them so close together so he says that they put them in a jig one in one hole and not in the next one then they cut it twice. Anyway this will not be easy and the die will cost. I got two stickers from George and it may take several to get it right. These stickers look good but not as good as the factory ones. It is the best that we have.
Tod has an idea in the shadowing of the anti-tamper impressions in the screen-printing? You would need a very good artist.
Bob
Posted by: Wilhelm Mar 3 2009, 02:29 AM
Looks like all the numbers are derived from a geometric grid 4 wide and 6 high. Seems like it would be easy enough to make a punch template with 12 grids of 6 high by 4 wide hole patterns arranged side by side with the appropriate spacing. I would take 2 piece of polished 1/4 plate, reference them together and then drill the 288 holes in this simple geometric pattern. When done you put this mylar sticker in between the metal leaves and you can then punch any sequence of numbers you wanted with a tight fitting punch. Wouldn't need a cnc, I could simply do it on a mill with the digital readout. Bet this jig be done built in an hour or two.
All I would need would be the character hole size, the character spacing, the grid size and lastly the reference location of where the numbers are on the sticker.
Tell you what, make a photcopy or two on mylar of one of these stickers and send it to me and we'll see if we can make a punch jig.
If that works we'll put our brains together to create a toy to emboss the beehive pattern all over the sticker.
Posted by: Maltese Falcon Mar 3 2009, 03:25 AM
The body shop employee might be a candidate for the 2009 Darwin Awards.
Marty
Posted by: dr914@autoatlanta.com Mar 3 2009, 08:22 AM
a check canceling machine should be able to punch the sticker. Several years ago a guy sent me a pic of one our our stickers that he punched and it looked perfect. Too bad I did not get his name!!!
If having to paint the door jambs it is much better to replace the sticker than to tape it off! Tape off looks very messy and would fail the concours inspection.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 3 2009, 08:24 AM
Oh man I would be absolutely LIVID over this TC, that's inexcusable. I'd have lost my shit if when I found out if I'd been in your place. Ugh.
Well, this is how it went yesterday. I called the owners son, as I wanted his side of the story of why the car is behind schedule (way behind). The car is about to be blasted, so I reminded him about making sure the sticker was protected. He then pulls the phone away and shouts, "Dad, come here T.C. wants to yell at you". I said don't tell me the sticker is gone. The son said yes and I hung up.
I called the owner back a couple of hours later (after I cooled down a little) and asked (was really hoping) "Are you guys Fuching with me?". Nope it was gone, one of his stooges had removed it.
So the next question is; How do you go off on a shop that hasn't finished your car?
And they are contracted to paint my Blue car that is up for COTM. The Blue car is paid for via a trade I made for 2 Tubs and parts.
T.C.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 3 2009, 08:34 AM
I would think making the VIN perforations could be done with some practice and by making a jig with the number layout, but the anti-tamper circular impressions would be harder. Or does the Auto Atlanta stickers already have those?
JIM
a check canceling machine should be able to punch the sticker. Several years ago a guy sent me a pic of one our our stickers that he punched and it looked perfect. Too bad I did not get his name!!!
If having to paint the door jambs it is much better to replace the sticker than to tape it off! Tape off looks very messy and would fail the concours inspection.
Couple of questions George;
Your replica stickers are smooth and don't have the circular impressions correct? Those seem more of a problem that the perforations.
I understand about the tape-off, but I think that an original sticker with some overspray/mess is much better than a non-original looking sticker, Yes?
T.C.
Posted by: MDG Mar 3 2009, 08:57 AM
one thing I'm curious about; the circle pattern on the later stickers are kiss-cut on the face to create that impression. It's basically just scored into the surface.
On the pic of T.C.'s label earlier in the thread it appears those circles have been de-bossed from the back. Is it just a trick of the light or are the circles on the earlier silver labels bumped out?
Replicating the later style can be done; if the earlier ones are in fact de-bossed it could be tough as the repro labels have a peel-off paper backing on them.
m.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 3 2009, 09:24 AM
I called Brumos and PCNA. The only Vin Compliance stickers that Porsches can supply are the Black ones with the 911 part#. Something to do with Federal Laws & Regulations. Even if they found a stash of the Silver ones in 1 of Ferry Porsches old suit coats, they couldn't use them.
T.C.
Posted by: KELTY360 Mar 3 2009, 10:23 AM
I'm curious about the circular impressions on the sticker. They look to be embossed into the surface of the sticker and the darkened lines are actually shadows and/or dirt accumulated over the years. It is possible that an embossing die could be made to replicate the effect.
I've got over 30 years in the printing biz and have access to vendors who might work with me on this. Let me know if I can be of assistance.
BTW, I can't believe the body shop could be so careless with such an integral element to the restoration. They should be on their knees begging for forgiveness mercy.
Posted by: seanery Mar 3 2009, 10:31 AM
Hey TC, a vinyl cutter like Z, Mark & I use won't really do it for you. As fragile as that material is, the cutter will most likely rip it. The vinyl we use is made to be under the cutter.
I like George's idea about the check machine. The embossing of the rest could probably be faked by finding an object of the right shape and size and applying some pressure - maybe like a rolling pin. It would take practice and you'll likely go through many stickers before you get it right.
This sucks, sorry it happened to you!
Posted by: ConeDodger Mar 3 2009, 10:37 AM
T.C.,
I think what you need is about 100 letters from us guys here saying how the value of a factory six is destroyed when the VIN#'s are missing...
Give us an address and we can start writing.
Posted by: dflesburg Mar 3 2009, 10:42 AM
Thats why you dont let other people work on your car.
Posted by: charliew Mar 3 2009, 11:00 AM
I think Wilhelm is on the right track although the time frame on the jig is very optimistic. 288 holes, a cnc would be nice. It seems another two plates shimmed for the desirable thickness with the circular holes to impress the scales could also be done. But the press plates seem complicated to make for a reasonable price. I painted a 72 sb with the sticker and it was really hard to not mess the sticker up. Also the color change means you gotta touch up all the dots showing through for the vin. Not easy. Also it's really hard to not de-laminate the sticker when you remove the tape. On the next one I think I will spray the stuff you use on motorcycle tanks and then cut with a exacto knife to do the graphics. I think it's liquid mask. It comes in gallon jugs and sprays on and peels off when done. I don't think it will hurt the clear top layer as much as tape. That label is a real pita to deal with it looks like a decent business could be done on reproducing these as the vin is really in the chassis also. Also a lot of the original stickers are usually scratched up after the years.
I went out and looked and the stickers seem to be the same on the 72 sb and the 75 914. I wonder if this has already been solved on the vw bug forums? Germanlook, samba or somewhere?
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 3 2009, 11:01 AM
TC 911s registry guys have a couple of threads about this. They are in the same boat.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14828&highlight=vin+sticker
Attached image(s)
Posted by: 6freak Mar 3 2009, 11:41 AM
When i read this post my heart sank..mines in the shop getting that very part of the car painted as i speak ..I just called them .they didnt remove or paint over it thank god..good luck with that issue i feel for ya pal 
Posted by: Todd Enlund Mar 3 2009, 01:00 PM
I've got a sub-miniature punch and die set that could do the perforations, but it would involve doing them one at a time. Do-able, if tedious. Precision is possible... I use it to punch 1/48 scale aircraft instruments.
Are the anti-tamper circles embossed or scored?
Posted by: PanelBilly Mar 3 2009, 01:23 PM
Looks like Todd has your answer. Have him send a bid to the paint shop and let them pay the cost.
Posted by: Cap'n Krusty Mar 3 2009, 03:00 PM
Their "flunky" committed a criminal act while under their employ and on their premises. They're probably criminally and civilly liable. Can't remove a VIN tag of an7y kind, whether or not there are others. Having a motor vehicle without the proper tags potentially exposes YOU to future problems, and the value of your car is materially diminished. In fact, they're in deeper than that, because they have to commit a criminal act in order to fix their OTHER criminal act ...............
Interesting dilemma, no?
The Cap'n
Posted by: sixnotfour Mar 3 2009, 04:11 PM
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004
i sourced the 5mm biopsy punches. in bulk they cost about $1.50.
from 911s
Posted by: carr914 Mar 3 2009, 06:27 PM
TC 911s registry guys have a couple of threads about this. They are in the same boat.
http://www.early911sregistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14828&highlight=vin+sticker
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004
i sourced the 5mm biopsy punches. in bulk they cost about $1.50.
from 911s
Thanks for the info. I got in touch with Rob today and he is sending me his kit. It includes 2 Stickers, 2 practice Stickers, a tool to make the circles and Instructions. I may still need a jig for doing the Vin# and date code.
I will let everyone know if this is the solution. Maybe I can do a few for others in need if it isn't too tough.
T.C.
Posted by: TedK Mar 3 2009, 08:35 PM
Good info, I am going to subscribe to this thread for sure. I was talking to my favorite body shop owner and he told me about this place...........http://www.automotiveid.com Not the solution we are looking for but interesting none the less.
Ted K
Posted by: zambezi Mar 3 2009, 09:41 PM
I believe Wilhelm is on the right track with the jig for making the VIN. That is exactly as I had invisioned it when I posted about making a jig earlier. I am a machinist and making that jig with all the possible hole combinations would be fairly easy and very accurate. with the sticker properly placed and clamped between the two jig plates it would be a simple matter of pushing through the proper holes to cut out the VIN.
JIM
Posted by: brer Mar 3 2009, 11:22 PM
I would think making the VIN perforations could be done with some practice and by making a jig with the number layout, but the anti-tamper circular impressions would be harder. Or does the Auto Atlanta stickers already have those?
JIM
Laser cutter would be my approach to the holes.
Posted by: charliew Mar 3 2009, 11:26 PM
It might be overkill but a different jig could be made with the larger holes and a hollow punch cut at a angle to replicate the scales. Maybe it's harder than it seems though.
Without the new sticker it is a real job to fill in the holes of a color change on the car.
Posted by: Wilhelm Mar 4 2009, 12:38 AM
So..... I went out to do some measurements of the number grid off of the vin tag from the '70 914 in the driveway. The jamb had been repainted, but the vin tag was obviously taped off and preserved. Weird thing though is the vin # appears to be printed and not punched though the date code is punched. I'll post a pict in am. Were some vin tags printed and some punched, or do I have a faked vin tag?
Posted by: carr914 Mar 4 2009, 08:22 AM
It might be overkill but a different jig could be made with the larger holes and a hollow punch cut at a angle to replicate the scales. Maybe it's harder than it seems though.
Without the new sticker it is a real job to fill in the holes of a color change on the car.
I think the problem there is the larger dimples (scales) butt up against each other. I think you would have to make at least 2 jigs to do it.
Rob from the 911S Registry is sending me his kit with instructions on how to do the dimples. Hopefully it is simple. Will advise.
T.C.
Posted by: Lavanaut Mar 4 2009, 11:34 AM
![popcorn[1].gif](style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: Wilhelm Mar 4 2009, 02:10 PM
So..... I went out to do some measurements of the number grid off of the vin tag from the '70 914 in the driveway. The jamb had been repainted, but the vin tag was obviously taped off and preserved. Weird thing though is the vin # appears to be printed and not punched though the date code is punched. I'll post a pict in am. Were some vin tags printed and some punched, or do I have a faked vin tag?
So if you "click to enlarge" you can see the numbers are printed on this red 70 car. The white 71 car in front yard also has a printed vin. My 73 has no sticker (sandblasted off by yours truly). My other three cars I can't see the vins as they are in a cargo container with the drivers door near a wall. What year did the vins become perforated. For reference this tag measures 39mm tall by 135mm wide. Height wise the dots of the vin numbers are on 1mm centers. The dot size is .5 mm (printed). For punched sizes I'd need measurements from someone.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 4 2009, 02:18 PM
The differences I see between yours & mine;
Mine - 914-6 - sticker is perforated, has rounded corners, says Porsche KG
Yours - 914 - Sticker is printed, corners are squared off (probably from the taping), says Volkswagenwerk AG
Posted by: carr914 Mar 4 2009, 02:31 PM
Here is the page from AA Catalog. It says #3 is the 70-71 Sticker. Yours is the right color, but says Volkswagenwerk. We need some other people to chime in.
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 4 2009, 02:38 PM
The differences I see between yours & mine;
914-6 = Round corners and stamped VIN
Posted by: SirAndy Mar 4 2009, 02:41 PM
In a former life, i used to work at a printing company.
I can make a *exact* Photoshop replica of the early 914-6 sticker.
All we need is someone to figure out the stamping and perforating.
It looks as if the perforating was done in two passes to get the circles to slightly overlap.
Andy
Posted by: TedK Mar 4 2009, 03:07 PM
Looks like the VIN and DOM are punched through, but the "fish scales" only go part-way through the actual sticker so as to make it break apart if you tried to remove it, but would not separate into little pieces before being applied to the vehicle. That would take some careful "punching".
Posted by: MDG Mar 4 2009, 03:12 PM
Hi Wilhelm, I'm certainly not doubting something you have on hand but when I enlarge the pic the numbers do look like they've been punched out not printed. In the pic you can see what appears to be remnants of where the perf has not gone cleanly through
maybe they used different methods on the early cars; my '73 & '76 - both perfed
Hi Andy I believe the labels would have been manufactured for VW/Porsche with the 'background' circles already in place; the factory only would have added the VIN/Date. I own a printing company and see these type of patterned labels all the time where the blank label stock comes with a kiss-cut pattern like this.
Unfortunately the aftermarket ones are already cut to size and almost have to be done by hand as the die-presses would not be able to grip something so small. Maybe someone out there has an old Heidleberg - you could duplicate the circles and pin holes exactly with one.
The brass die might cost $150-$250 though
Posted by: MDG Mar 4 2009, 03:19 PM
Ted, you are 100% correct; the method is called a kiss-cut; the blade pierces the suface of the stock but does not punch all the way through.
That way, once the label has been affixed to the car you cannot removed it without destroying the pattern; if you were to try and remove after it's been stuck down, the adhesive holds, the kiss-cut separates and the circles come out
Obviously a well thought out method to preven tampering
Posted by: mikez Mar 4 2009, 08:09 PM
Not pretty but still intact....
Attached thumbnail(s)
Posted by: MDG Mar 4 2009, 08:19 PM
T.C.'s and Mike's cars are only 71 apart off the line; like ships passing in the night . . .
Posted by: mikez Mar 4 2009, 08:21 PM
Ummmm with Ahhhndy, 371.....so instead of handgrenades....missiles....
Posted by: krazykonrad Mar 4 2009, 08:25 PM
Konrad
P.S.
Posted by: TedK Mar 4 2009, 08:33 PM
Well, for whats its worth, I would definately be in for contributing to the research to figure out a way to produce factory-like results. I have not looked lately, but I think mine looks alot like the one in Mike Z's picture. As my car will be undergoing a full resto(as soon as we finish the new garage), I would certainly like to have the option of a quality replacement label.
Ted K
Posted by: number6 Mar 4 2009, 09:10 PM
Laser cutter would be my approach to the holes.
This was my initial thought as well, but I'm not sure how one would go about preventing the singe marks around the cut-away edges...
TC, so sorry to hear about your heartache. Perhaps this will turn out to be a blessing in disguise, if you can perfectly replicate the original sticker. Personally, I've never liked the masked-off-for-painting end result, especially on a car where everything else is perfect - the overspray/paint thickness difference becomes such an eyesore, and you see it every time you open your door! Until this thread, I didn't realize it was a crime to remove the sticker, but now that I think about it, I see the logic, though I doubt any law enforcement agency would enforce the law. With vintage vehicles that have been restored and passed between owners, how would anyone go about proving that YOU were the one to remove the sticker?
Question for everyone: Has anyone successfully been able to remove the sticker for re-application after painting? Heat gun tricks? Chemical adhesive release that doesn't do damage to the sticker itself? There's gotta be a way!
Posted by: Lavanaut Mar 4 2009, 09:15 PM
Anyone else notice that the '7' used in the date is different from the '7' in the VIN? 
Posted by: mikez Mar 4 2009, 09:18 PM
Looks the same to me....
Posted by: number6 Mar 4 2009, 09:24 PM
Anyone else notice that the '7' used in the date is different from the '7' in the VIN?
Good eye! Looks like we need a photo database of the varying type designs and exact measurements for proper reproduction...
Posted by: Lavanaut Mar 4 2009, 09:34 PM
Looks the same to me....
Posted by: mikez Mar 4 2009, 10:02 PM
There ya go proving me wrong.... 
I see that the 914/4 VIN has the same differences. Wonder why, were VINs assigned at the beginning at Karmann or at final assembly?
Posted by: MDG Mar 4 2009, 10:12 PM
whatever reason they had for doing that they must have changed their minds by '73; here's a 914-4 VIN with the same style 7 used in the date and number 
Posted by: carr914 Mar 5 2009, 08:46 AM
Lets help Wilhelm and the other Early 914 guys out as well. So the the 914-6 came with a sticker that says Porsche KG and the 914 says Volkswaganwerk AG - correct? AA doesn't sell the Volkswaganwerk silver sticker according to their catalog.
MDG, since you are in the print business, is it possible to make a batch of those stickers (with the kiss-cuts). If the demand is there, I would be willing to fund this and offer them to members.
T.C.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 5 2009, 08:47 AM
Andys 914-6 sticker
Wilhelm 914 Sticker
Lets help Wilhelm and the other Early 914 guys out as well. So the the 914-6 came with a sticker that says Porsche KG and the 914 says Volkswaganwerk AG - correct? AA doesn't sell the Volkswaganwerk silver sticker according to their catalog.
MDG, since you are in the print business, is it possible to make a batch of those stickers (with the kiss-cuts). If the demand is there, I would be willing to fund this and offer them to members.
T.C.
Posted by: mikez Mar 5 2009, 09:28 AM
Carefull.....the Krusty one warned you guys about screwing around with these stickers. Making them up and sending them across state lines could be a Federal rap.
I'd suggest that an admin send this thread to the sandbox where it has a little more protection from search engine web crawlers....
Posted by: MDG Mar 5 2009, 09:56 AM
MikeZ is 100% spot on;
T.C. I doubt you would have any problems with what you are trying to do.
You have a well documented restoration underway on a well documented numbers matching vehicle. To fab up a replacement sticker to fix the bodyshop yob's error, I'd be gobsmacked if any type of court officer would give a crap - or even notice. By the letter of the law illegal? Maybe. But it's obvious you are not running a racket.
BUT I'd be very cautious about creating from scratch new VIN stickers; this is where we start getting visits from the FBI and RCMP.
The best effort here is to use the aftermarket labels available and recreate the look. High end woodworking suppliers have various small punches in the sizes needed to create both the circles and the perfed numbers. It would be tedious and may require a few attempts but no doubt you'll get what you want
cheers, m.
Posted by: charliew Mar 5 2009, 10:05 AM
Are you guys sure that is a vin number sticker? Is'nt it just a safety standard sticker? The stamped numbers in the metal seem to me to be the real vin number id. Also the riveted tag on the front bulkhead. That is just like the stuff on vw's
If that sticker is the true vin sticker why would it be so easy to destroy? The stamped numbers on the inner fender well are the true id numbers that a inspector would use to compare the riveted tag to in my opinion.
The sticker says what it is. It does not say it's a vehicle identification number. I would therefore like to have or make a new one. Sell them as safety sticker which is what they are. If we all say they are safety stickers that's what they are.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 5 2009, 10:14 AM
Andys 914-6 sticker
Wilhelm 914 Sticker
Lets help Wilhelm and the other Early 914 guys out as well. So the the 914-6 came with a sticker that says Porsche KG and the 914 says Volkswaganwerk AG - correct? AA doesn't sell the Volkswaganwerk silver sticker according to their catalog.
MDG, since you are in the print business, is it possible to make a batch of those stickers (with the kiss-cuts). If the demand is there, I would be willing to fund this and offer them to members.
T.C.
Carefull.....the Krusty one warned you guys about screwing around with these stickers. Making them up and sending them across state lines could be a Federal rap.
I'd suggest that an admin send this thread to the sandbox where it has a little more protection from search engine web crawlers....
MikeZ is 100% spot on;
T.C. I doubt you would have any problems with what you are trying to do.
You have a well documented restoration underway on a well documented numbers matching vehicle. To fab up a replacement sticker to fix the bodyshop yob's error, I'd be gobsmacked if any type of court officer would give a crap - or even notice. By the letter of the law illegal? Maybe. But it's obvious you are not running a racket.
BUT I'd be very cautious about creating from scratch new VIN stickers; this is where we start getting visits from the FBI and RCMP.
The best effort here is to use the aftermarket labels available and recreate the look. High end woodworking suppliers have various small punches in the sizes needed to create both the circles and the perfed numbers. It would be tedious and may require a few attempts but no doubt you'll get what you want
cheers, m.
Maybe a little misunderstood about my post. I was thinking about producing a run of stickers with Volkswaganwerk AG (with kiss-cuts) for the 914 guys like AA does with the other stickers. I would not be punching in the VIN #s
T.C.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 5 2009, 10:18 AM
Are you guys sure that is a vin number sticker or just a safety standard sticker? The stamped numbers in the metal seem to me to be the real vin number id.
I'm thinking safety standard compliance sticker as well, because the Euro cars don't have this sticker. Every other number is stamped in metal.
T.C.
Posted by: tod914 Mar 5 2009, 10:24 AM
Do you guys know if the sticker is punched from the face or back for the anti-tamper circles? Maybe getting 26 of those punches and doing one row at a time might work.
Posted by: charliew Mar 5 2009, 10:24 AM
I'm in for one or two if it comes to fruition. Except for the weight the same sticker is on the 72 super beetle as the 75 914 so maybe the developer could extend the customer base for the r&d expenses. It would be nice to have one with and one without the weights.
Actually the 72 beetle has slightly different wording (it looks like the 69 sticker) and doesn't have the weight posted. But the stickers are the same size with the same type of punched info.
If someone were to make a set of dies that could be used to do the punching of the date and vin numbers they could rent it with a rebuild charge deposit if it gets damaged and maybe everyone could make new ones on repaints.
Also I see where a black safety standard sticker is posted on a 73 with the weights and my 75 is silver with the weights, black and silver? If the black sticker is a copy it looks pretty good except for the color. The numbers are sure punched straight but it looks like no tamper proof imbossing.
Posted by: charliew Mar 5 2009, 11:23 AM
If the tamper proof circles are 5mm then could you make a die with 28 holes, skip the next offste row down and do the next in the skip a line pattern with 4 or 5 rows down. Then put a piece of dense rubber pad under it. Make a position jig bottom that you could move the top plate down one row and 1/2 hole to the side to do the other 1/2 set of embosses. the punch itself could be maybe the biopsy punch some one already mentioned or to keep from cutting out a hole a .002 hollow in the center of the punch to keep from going too deep.
After looking at the embossed holes they are touching so the holes in a row won't work. It would have to be every other hole which is getting more complicated.
Posted by: MDG Mar 5 2009, 11:30 AM
Tod, the circles are partially in cut from the front leaving the backer intact; once this is adhered to the vehicle the pressure applied to remove it would cause the circles to split and effectively destroy the label.
as I mentioned earlier, it's a simple and effective way to safeguard against tampering. No doubt when the idiot who removed the one from T.C.'s car it came off in bits.
As far as the legality of just printing the labels with the circles in I have no idea. Obviously someone is doing it because AA and others sell them. I would assume, from dealing with trademarks, copyrights and so on everyday there would be permission needed. The way both factories involved here go after identity infringement I would think twice about starting to run off materials without their consent. Big, horrible, massive lawsuits ensue. One of my competitors up here is in court due to unwittingly running fake product posters; the logo holder caught wind and both he and his customer are getting friendly with lawyers now
m.
Posted by: charliew Mar 5 2009, 11:52 AM
All lawyers do is encourage their pals in office to pass more laws that will garantee they will always have something to go to court over.
Posted by: MDG Mar 5 2009, 11:56 AM
All lawyers do is encourage their pals in office to pass more laws that will gaurantee they will always have something to go to court over.
you got that right
Posted by: tod914 Mar 5 2009, 12:09 PM
Has anyone contacted the Porsche classic division? I wonder if there was enough demand they would do that.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 10 2009, 02:26 PM
Got my 1st two stickers dimpled ( a pain in the ass to do by hand)
Very tough to keep it dimples in a straight line and to judge how far to go into the sticker.
But I think once I get the VIN & Date # punched in, put it on the car, rub some oil & dirt on it to "age" it, I'll be OK
T.C.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 10 2009, 03:02 PM
Here's the 2nd Sticker
T.C.
Posted by: tod914 Mar 10 2009, 04:01 PM
Looks good T.C.. How about using a straight edge as a guide? A ruler might work. That way all your horizontals will be perfectly aligned.
Posted by: MDG Mar 10 2009, 04:03 PM
T.C. the second one looks good!; careful when you peel the backer off in case any of the circles are loose. Once you press it onto the sill, it will lose some of the 'fresh' look to the impressions. As you say, rub your hand on it a bit; the oils will scuff it up enough that unless you point it out to people, no one will ever know.
That's as good as what I got
m.
Posted by: tradisrad Mar 10 2009, 04:26 PM
I bought a stricker from AA and punched the holes in it myself. If I have time I'll post a picture of it later.
Any how, I got a block of machined aluminum, some EFD 20GA glue dispensing needles. Measured out the hole pattern (spaces between numbers) from a good sticker. I then went to the milling machine and drilled a grid with my spacing. Then I sharpened my EFD needle and punched out the holes.
The diagonal line has different spacing than the numbers.
It's a black sticker and does not have the peel resistant perforations, but it looks good.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 10 2009, 05:05 PM
A member iswilling to make me a jig to punch the VIN & Date #. Since I don't have my Original Sticker, I'm still requesting assistance
Thanks, T.C.
Posted by: MDG Mar 10 2009, 05:33 PM
A member iswilling to make me a jig to punch the VIN & Date #. Since I don't have my Original Sticker, I'm still requesting assistance
Thanks, T.C.
it can be done
Posted by: carr914 Mar 10 2009, 07:29 PM
Looks good T.C.. How about using a straight edge as a guide? A ruler might work. That way all your horizontals will be perfectly aligned.
Used a straight edge, but the lighting wasn't the greatest. It still will work for me - especially the 2nd sticker - just need the measurements for the Vin & date #s
T.C.
Posted by: championgt1 Mar 10 2009, 07:40 PM
That actually looks really good for having to do it by hand!
Posted by: carr914 Mar 11 2009, 08:35 PM
I'm needing exact measurements of the VIN & Date # WxHxL with dimensions between the 1mm holes so I can get the Jig made. Without my Original I'm out of luck (smg914's M-471 is Euro so no compliance sticker)
Please help a brother in need.
T.C.
Posted by: Lavanaut Mar 11 2009, 09:30 PM
T.C., using my metric ruler I get:
Date: W=26.5mm x H=6.5mm
VIN: W=64.5mm x H=6.5mm
These measurements are from outside edge to outside edge of the dots. Sounds like you have the dots at 1mm each, so should be 1mm less on all measurements from outside center to outside center. The VIN measurement includes the bounding "#" symbols.
edit: Just saw you actually need more data. I measure the holes themselves at approximately 2/3 of a mm, with 6 dots spanning 'exactly' 6mm.
Reid
Posted by: charliew Mar 12 2009, 08:24 AM
TC I have a 75 If it would help I will do the measurements in thousands and post them but if you have enough info I won't spend the time. It's rainy and cool today so a inside project is ok.
Posted by: carr914 Mar 12 2009, 08:42 AM
Charlie, I think Reid's info will work. If it doesn't, I'll put another post for help. Thanks for the offer.
T.C.
Posted by: charliew Mar 12 2009, 08:44 AM
I haven't measured it but if the holes are 2/3mm that space inbetween them seems to be more than that like maybe the 1mm Reid posted.
Ok I couldn't stand it I measured my 75 and also discovered a couple of variances. The 4 in my build date has the bottom hole missing and the beginning # symbol has a left beginning bottom horizontal line hole missing. I guess the punches got stuck.
Also posted above: The diagonal line has different spacing than the numbers.
On both the 914 and a 72 bug the 4 is different between the date and vin. The top left leg on the 914 date (11/74) has 3 holes down and the vin has 4 holes down. All the 7's are the same.
The measurements seem to be:
height of the char. .278-.280
width .172- .175
vin width 2.550- gap to rt edge .297- between the date and vin .420
date width .980- gap to rt edge .297- down from top .232- vin and bottom .320
This was with calipers holding over the tracing so it could be a little off but not much.
It's almost as if the safety stickers were hand punched.
I don't know if it will help but I did a pencil tracing on both stickers. I can mail them if you want.
Posted by: Lavanaut Mar 12 2009, 10:48 AM
I haven't measured it but if the holes are 2/3mm that space inbetween them seems to be more than that like maybe the 1mm Reid posted.
No offense man, but if you're going to stand up and say that I'm wrong you might want to take a closer look at the numbers I posted. Also, as has already been noted in this thread the later stickers are different from the early ones, and the 4-cyl versions are different from the 6s...which is what T.C.'s got.
Reid
disclaimer: didn't get shit for sleep last night, so perhaps a bit
Posted by: Wilhelm Mar 12 2009, 05:12 PM
These seem to be correct for the 1970 printed tags. Can anyone confirm if this is the same for the punched tags and 914-6 tags?
Posted by: carr914 Mar 12 2009, 06:11 PM
I haven't measured it but if the holes are 2/3mm that space inbetween them seems to be more than that like maybe the 1mm Reid posted.
Ok I couldn't stand it I measured my 75 and also discovered a couple of variances. The 4 in my build date has the bottom hole missing and the beginning # symbol has a left beginning bottom horizontal line hole missing. I guess the punches got stuck.
Also posted above: The diagonal line has different spacing than the numbers.
On both the 914 and a 72 bug the 4 is different between the date and vin. The top left leg on the 914 date (11/74) has 3 holes down and the vin has 4 holes down. All the 7's are the same.
The measurements seem to be:
height of the char. .278-.280
width .172- .175
vin width 2.550- gap to rt edge .297- between the date and vin .420
date width .980- gap to rt edge .297- down from top .232- vin and bottom .320
This was with calipers holding over the tracing so it could be a little off but not much.
It's almost as if the safety stickers were hand punched.
I don't know if it will help but I did a pencil tracing on both stickers. I can mail them if you want.
I haven't measured it but if the holes are 2/3mm that space inbetween them seems to be more than that like maybe the 1mm Reid posted.
No offense man, but if you're going to stand up and say that I'm wrong you might want to take a closer look at the numbers I posted. Also, as has already been noted in this thread the later stickers are different from the early ones, and the 4-cyl versions are different from the 6s...which is what T.C.'s got.
Reid
disclaimer: didn't get shit for sleep last night, so perhaps a bit
I truly appreciate everybody's response and willingness to help. Please no dis-record between brothers on my account. I'd hate to take out the switch and take you to the time-out house
T.C.
Posted by: orthobiz Mar 14 2009, 06:20 PM
If I made a mistake like the shop did, I'd be accused of MALPRACTICE!
Paul
Posted by: carr914 Apr 8 2009, 02:29 PM
Here is a completed sticker. I think once it is applied to the car smoothed out and with the Signal Orange showing through the holes it will look good.
Thanks to a fellow member for making the jig to punch the number. If he would like his name announced, I will do it, but for now he is anonymous
T.C.
Posted by: 1970 Neun vierzehn Apr 8 2009, 02:58 PM
TC,
That has turned out better than I woulda thunk.
Hopefully, you'll post pics after you have affixed it to the door jamb.
I'm wondering, were these stickers always placed exactly in the same place on every car?
Paul
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