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914World.com _ Member Vendors _ Price of Jake's 2270cc
Posted by: Rog914 Nov 26 2005, 09:53 PM
Flat labor rate $4,000
New parts $7,500
Crating charge $ 150
Core charge
Total estimated cost $11,650
Inclusive Opions:
Dyno tuning, (In lieu of warranty) $350
Cryogenic enhancement (partial) $262
Standard blueprinting service $550
Severe duty valve train $450
Extensive Dyno Testing $500
Composite lifters (if available) $600
Mallory Unilite Distributor $329
Optional items, (not included in "Total estimated cost") above:
$400 Crygenic treatment upgrade (full engine treatment)
$275 Ion Nitrided crankshaft
$125 Lightened flywheel
$2,800 Upgrade to programmable EFI
$810 Performance engine coatings package (thermal barrier, friction reduction & heat dispersants)
$2,000 LN Engineering Nickies cylinders (if available)
$1,250 914 DTM upgrade
$145 Full flow oiling system upgrades
$92 6 puck performance cluch disc
Total Option price: $7,897
Total price of engine & all options: $19,547 (not including exhaust & shipping)
This would have been heck of a 2270cc engine with everything. I wish I could of afforded it.
Yes, I'm the last to have backed out of a Raby engine.
I'm not here to bash Jake, just tell "the other side of the story"
Started in 1-5-05 with a phone call from Jake to talk what I wanted in an engine. Told him I wanted a 2270cc and what would cost to have one with all the bells & whilses. With Nickies, all performance coatings. He gives me a "rough" estimate of $11,000. 1-6-05 I sent my $200 deposit for an engine build. He calls every now & then, and chat for awhile. Calls 2 month ago, tells me looked over the engine and everything looked good except for the heads cracked but should be salvageable and will cost a little more to repair them.
Nothing more was said about money until he calls to say my spot is getting ready and E-mailed the proposal.
The whole time I'm thinking about $11,000. When I see my all "bells & whisles" engine to be $19,547. Sorry but that's way off even for a "rough" estimate. I just can't afford that at this time.
Jake builds super engines and has done alot for the 914 community.
I just wish he would be more truthful with his estimates. Even on this board he stated "Anywhere from 7K clear to 14.5K could be end the end result." When $19,547 is the end result as his propsal states above. As far as I'm concerned I should of had the propsal in January when I put my deposit down, not at the last minute when to find out the estimate nearly doubled.
Now that's the rest of the story.
Ralph
Posted by: jonwatts Nov 26 2005, 10:28 PM
![popcorn[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/popcorn[1].gif)
Posted by: nine14cats Nov 26 2005, 10:32 PM
Yep...
Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 26 2005, 10:38 PM
And now.........it begins.
Posted by: echocanyons Nov 26 2005, 10:40 PM
IMHO 19,000 for any streetable engine is just crazy
Posted by: olav Nov 26 2005, 10:49 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 26 2005, 08:45 PM) | ||
 |
Posted by: MecGen Nov 26 2005, 11:17 PM
Hi Ralph
Glad you posted, I am a realy slow typer. I do not know Mr.Raby personally, just crossed a few posts, he is without doubt, the Type4 expert here. I was wandering WTF up with his "deadbeat 914 owner" thred.
It sounded very unprofessional. I have a shop for the last 10 years, and had have deals go south many times...no big deal...move on. 
Then to bash 914 owners in the forum that probably has been a mojor source of free advertisement,
Tasteless... 
I am glad you are man anough to post and give your side of the story.
Mr.Raby seems to be an outstanding personality in the 914 comunity, my opinions are based on business ethnics and personal experience in my 25 years in the business. Lets chew on some food for thought 
If you need to plunk 20K into a motor for a 914 to enjoy it, you've bought the wrong car.
20K for even a complete bells and whistles motor, is insane. Might as well sell it for 40K because the same type of customer, will pay either price $$$.
The highest bill to leave my shop was 15K for a 1993 Dodge twin turbo motor and clutch. I was on the phone with him all the time, faxed, email photos, and he came for periodic visits, This was to protect my ass and insure payment ! I have problems with the "holyer then thou" type of business people I run into today, but I couldn't imagine a diference of 8K. This is definately a comunications problem. In this price range, for a motor, this can't happen.
If you cancelled on the motor, isn't the production waiting list moving up faster?. Over 5 months you have to expect sour deals, what would happen if you did pay in advance ?. 10 months ? Come on.
I donno
Anywho... I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, just an obervation/opinion from some guy on the other end of a phone line.
Later POZ
Posted by: lapuwali Nov 26 2005, 11:19 PM
| QUOTE (echocanyons @ Nov 26 2005, 08:40 PM) |
| IMHO 19,000 for any streetable engine is just crazy |
Jag V12: head gasket blew, one valve seat dropped, did NOT hole a piston, but probably bent a valve. Estimate to repair: $15,000. That wasn't a complete rebuild, either. And don't even get started on the costs of typical Ferrari engine work...
Whenever you ask for anything "with all the bells and whistles", you should expect a high price tag. I'll agree that there should have been a more accurate estimate done up front, and jumping from $11K to $19K seems excessive, but there are a LOT of "bells and whistles" listed above. I would have renegotiated what was to be done and spent the original $11K (you'd still have a killer engine). If you say "give me the best of everything", then bitch about the price, well...
Posted by: Joe Sharp Nov 26 2005, 11:29 PM
I do belive that Jake Knows what it cost to build a motor.
Joe
Posted by: ppickerell Nov 26 2005, 11:37 PM
Did you receive a bid in writing initially?
Posted by: pete-stevers Nov 26 2005, 11:42 PM
WOW this is going to be interesting!
Posted by: trekkor Nov 26 2005, 11:45 PM
Near $20k? 
OK...just a second now...
Oh...uh-uh
For $20k I could have a 3.6 SIX and a 915 and..and..and 
KT
Posted by: Brando Nov 26 2005, 11:49 PM
Wow... $19k for a motor alone. I only see 356 and 993 owners plop that kind of cash on a car.
I applaud you for bringing to light your side of the story.
Posted by: Twystd1 Nov 26 2005, 11:49 PM
I just deleted my earlier post...
It just dawned on me...
This is none "O" my fuching bussiness.....
Clayton
Thanks Jasons.... 
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 26 2005, 11:49 PM
Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 26 2005, 11:49 PM
that may be your smiley limit Trekkor!
Posted by: jasons Nov 26 2005, 11:50 PM
| QUOTE (pete-stevers @ Nov 26 2005, 09:42 PM) |
| WOW this is going to be interesting! |
Actually it will probably just be a downward spiral of 914club conjecture and general malaise. At some point a longstanding clubmember will leave and start a new thread to testify why they must go. Everyone will reply and say "so long, you're a good fella". As a result, a new forum will be created called "The Theater". It will be exclusively for acting out lame drama.
Posted by: trekkor Nov 27 2005, 12:01 AM
Ctrl+Alt+Delete...hurry! 
I'd love to have a 3.6
Posted by: Lou W Nov 27 2005, 12:23 AM
wow, $19,000.00 just for an engine? I never really knew what the breakdown would add up too, I was kinda thinking the type of work he does would be around $11,000.00, then, with all the suspension mods, transaxle mods, chassis kits, etc. this sure can be an expensive hobby.
Its looking more and more as a 6 for my car:ph34r:
Posted by: KaptKaos Nov 27 2005, 12:49 AM
Cost is a relative term. What may seem like a lot to me, may not be a lot to someone else.
The percentage increase would be a better way to judge this situation. In this case, the increase is 72%.
This may be a justified increase, or not. Regardless, it seems clear that we have a communication problem at a minimum.
Posted by: LvSteveH Nov 27 2005, 12:59 AM
Thanks for stepping up and posting, you obviously knew you'd get a less than friendly response from some. If you were quoted $11,650, and that did not include nickies, then frankly, I don't blame you a bit for backing out. For $19,000 you can get a new 3.8L six race motor with 320 super reliable horsepower, and a car worth every bit of $35k when you are done. I realize that the $19k quote includes the latest and greatest technology, and that costs money. But for an iron cylinder 2270, based on the current costs of materials and workmanship, I just can't make sense of it costing $11,650 in any way, shape, or form. No disrespect meant to Jake, I think he does amazing work, and I'd love to have one of his motors, but for $8000 I better get nickies, a full dyno tune, and lifetime subscription to Jake's toll free tech hotline.
Posted by: jr91472 Nov 27 2005, 01:00 AM
aaawwww man......
there goes another expert that will never post here again.
as far as I know, Jake has never forced anyone here to buy a motor, and yet he plays here often and offers tons (errr .......I mean TONS) of free advice. 
oh well
Posted by: vortrex Nov 27 2005, 01:03 AM
| QUOTE |
| I will install a 993 3.6 in your car for $19,500. Line up. 914RS |
from another thread.
Posted by: Mrs. 'I" Nov 27 2005, 07:12 AM
I can tell you for $19,000.00 or a little less you can build a Polopolus 2.4 911 4 cylinder motor with 200+ HP.
IMHO if you were going to spend that kind of money you would have a very unique motor, it is 11lbs. lighter than a standard 911 motor and 5.5" shorter.
Perfect for a 914. 
Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 27 2005, 07:22 AM
Posts like this make me so happy I made the decisions I did back in August.
Posted by: lotus_65 Nov 27 2005, 07:38 AM
what bugged me was that jake complained about this not once, but twice. everyone saw his contrition after he deleted the first thread, but came in again (i didn't bother reading it).
i just can't see jake airing dirty laundry here. bad 4 biz! but he's an artist, so his shop won't really suffer from it.
and at least he'll actually do the work.
i've been searching for someone local & reliable for 2+ years, and all i get is crap work, lip service and "summer storage" at their shop until i get fed up and take my car back.
so who looses here? everyone, esp. if jake cops a walk. 
i wish i had his skillz... i'd be a millionare+ because most of you would have some type of rat under your hood!
Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Nov 27 2005, 07:50 AM
You guys crack me up with popcorn
Looks to me like the only thing wrong is poor communications at the time of deposit/agreement. As a businessman you need to send a detailed quote and review costs before placing the order (standard business practice). I feel bad for Ralph having budgeted the $11K and thinking that was it. Ralph should have asked for a detailed quote and Jake should have communicated a finished price. Both parites should have gone over each detail of the engine build. They both share 50% blame. These things happen in business dealings. Everyone learned a lesson. Life goes on.
My reaction to Jakes engine breakdown is interesting. My first thought is the flat labor rate. He works cheap if you cost his labor rate at $100 per hr. (40) labor hours is very good. All the other numbers look good. I see nothing wrong with Jakes breakdown, custom motors are expensive no matter what brand.
Now everyone knows how to figure their budget or decide what type of engine to use. This should help Jakes future business. You step up or go another direction.
Tom
Posted by: scotty b Nov 27 2005, 10:46 AM
I'm in for a 5 pager anyone think more??
Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 27 2005, 11:10 AM
I'm having trouble understanding the $7500 estimate for new parts - which doesn't include a set of Nickies and composite lifters.
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Nov 27 2005, 11:11 AM
Thanks for the price break-down. I understand it all except for the "Full flow oiling system upgrades"...wazzat for a T4?
For me, $11K is an upper limit for a built T4 engine, I don't care what excuses you give me. Past that I'm looking for a real Porsche 6. $20K for a T4 engine? Get real.
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Nov 27 2005, 11:12 AM
Crap, almost forgot...
Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 27 2005, 11:15 AM
what did i miss??? (see avatar)
Posted by: Mr.C Nov 27 2005, 11:25 AM
http://www.letsrumble.com/
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 27 2005, 11:31 AM
so he's done with the 914?
and this is JUST a 2270? imagine what a bigger engine would be?
b
Posted by: smooth_eddy Nov 27 2005, 11:41 AM
| QUOTE |
| I'm in for a 5 pager anyone think more?? |
Yep, stay tuned. This is going to good. I am in it for the long haul.
Eddy
Posted by: nein14 Nov 27 2005, 11:53 AM
I wonder what one of those T4 Turbo motors are? $25-30K maybe
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 27 2005, 11:59 AM
recon!
recon!
we need some recon!
b
Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Nov 27 2005, 12:02 PM
Chris Foley picked a good one. Anyones guess what the $7,500 breakdown could be on this line item???
Machining ???
Parts??
I kind of agree it's a little high & could have Nickies included?? I wonder why Ralph didn't ask??
Tom
Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 27 2005, 12:20 PM
| QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 27 2005, 10:31 AM) |
| so he's done with the 914? trek, your right man...AND the 911 community is solid...no egocentric people that cry like raby and this is JUST a 2270? imagine what a bigger engine would be? b |
ok mr two face.....
"raby raby - when is your super MPG motor going to be done? sign me up!!!"
and now
| QUOTE |
| trek, your right man...AND the 911 community is solid...no egocentric people that cry like raby |
whats up with that?
MY OPINION on this?
none of this is any of our business. not our job to be involved between jake, roger, and god, or either's bankers....
this isnt about a six vs four debate....its about a guy wanted a super 4, and backed out because of a large jump in price. looks like some miscommunication between the above peoples.... again. not our place to be involved.
what will this acccomplish? driving an expert from out club. ill never beable to afford a raby motor...but i sure as hell appreciate all the tech advice he puts out here for free.
jump on the bandwagon and tear someone a new one, when we ourselves have no direct involvement.
not our place to meddle...and share our opinions of either party.
why are we all so divisive? one club, for one automobile.....
this thread sucks.
im outta here for a while
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 27 2005, 12:24 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 27 2005, 12:20 PM) | ||||
ok mr two face..... "raby raby - when is your super MPG motor going to be done? sign me up!!!" and now
whats up with that? MY OPINION on this? none of this is any of our business. not our job to be involved between jake, roger, and god, or either's bankers.... this isnt about a six vs four debate....its about a guy wanted a super 4, and backed out because of a large jump in price. looks like some miscommunication between the above peoples.... again. not our place to be involved. what will this acccomplish? driving an expert from out club. ill never beable to afford a raby motor...but i sure as hell appreciate all the tech advice he puts out here for free. jump on the bandwagon and tear someone a new one, when we ourselves have no direct involvement. not our place to meddle...and share our opinions of either party. why are we all so divisive? one club, for one automobile..... this thread sucks. im outta here for a while |
he never stands on his word though....if he's still workin on the 914s great...if not, dont....
i dont think I would like doing business with raby after this.....
oh and aaron....maybe i should have put more emphasis on the fact i was being sarcastic.
its been more than three years in development?
b
Posted by: SLITS Nov 27 2005, 12:31 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 27 2005, 11:20 AM) | ||||
ok mr two face..... "raby raby - when is your super MPG motor going to be done? sign me up!!!" and now
whats up with that? MY OPINION on this? none of this is any of our business. not our job to be involved between jake, roger, and god, or either's bankers.... this isnt about a six vs four debate....its about a guy wanted a super 4, and backed out because of a large jump in price. looks like some miscommunication between the above peoples.... again. not our place to be involved. what will this acccomplish? driving an expert from out club. ill never beable to afford a raby motor...but i sure as hell appreciate all the tech advice he puts out here for free. jump on the bandwagon and tear someone a new one, when we ourselves have no direct involvement. not our place to meddle...and share our opinions of either party. why are we all so divisive? one club, for one automobile..... this thread sucks. im outta here for a while |
I told you not to wear those pink panties A-aron...they would just wad up on ya.
![yellowsleep[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/yellowsleep[1].gif)
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 27 2005, 12:48 PM
The hell with
As someone said, Jake doesn't force anyone to go out on the ledge....edge...with him. He wants you to pay for the trip, tho.
If you are so obsessed with being the underdog T-4 guy that you are willing to finance it, by all means, do so.
Ralph took a second look & chose not to. Pretty simple, eh?...Jake's histronics notwithstanding.
As a few have pointed out, this may drive Jake away from the fold. He has stated that, basicly, he needs 914 guys like he needs another hole in his head. The reverse it also true, of course. Most of Jake's "help" have been more like self promotion, IMO. Others who help, just for the hell of it, don't seem to attract such a rabid following.....which should tell us something.
If it takes 11K or 19k to make a silk purse of a T-4, that is
Jakes problem, not mine. For some prospective, a wide guts race 911 motor can easily top 30K. The bang for the buck ratio is up to each of us to decide.
That's it for me.
Back for more
(edit)
Get a grip, AAaron. Both parties brought the situation to the club's attention. What are we supposed to do, sit here and drool?
Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 27 2005, 12:53 PM
no big deal. i said it was my opinion, and others are entitled to share theirs also.
i got a PM saying my above post will result in a lawyer contacting me... ROFL
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 27 2005, 12:54 PM
please refrain from talking after the feature film has started.
k
Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 27 2005, 01:00 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 27 2005, 10:20 AM) |
| this thread sucks. im outta here for a while |
could you be a little more original please. that is so cliche these days
Posted by: SLITS Nov 27 2005, 01:05 PM
| QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 27 2005, 11:54 AM) |
| please refrain from talking after the feature film has started. k |
Sorry Kevin...I thought we were in the middle of a cartoon....
Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 27 2005, 01:05 PM
eh...i aint goin nowhere. sarcasm. just posted my opinion. take it for what it is worth (nothing? lol)
too funny.
lawyer
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 27 2005, 01:06 PM
| QUOTE (rhodyguy @ Nov 27 2005, 10:54 AM) |
| please refrain from talking after the feature film has started. k |
Now *that* is funny
Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 27 2005, 01:08 PM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 27 2005, 10:31 AM) |
| I told you not to wear those pink panties A-aron...they would just wad up on ya. |
aaron in pink panties? do i smell a calendar pic in the works?
was that lawyer threat serious?
Posted by: olav Nov 27 2005, 01:13 PM
| QUOTE (TROJANMAN @ Nov 27 2005, 11:08 AM) | ||
aaron in pink panties? do i smell a calendar pic in the works? |
Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 27 2005, 01:15 PM
| QUOTE (olav @ Nov 27 2005, 12:13 PM) | ||||
|
ill do it for 19k...
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 27 2005, 02:23 PM
Posted by: SLITS Nov 27 2005, 02:59 PM
Time's have changed
Our members are getting worse
They won't obey their admins
They just want to fart and curse
Should we blame the admins?
Or blame Jake Raby?
Or should we blame the images in the garage?
No. Blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their beady little eyes
And flapping heads so full of lies
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
We need to form a full assault
It's Canada's fault
Don't blame me
For my son Britt
He saw the darn post
And now he's off to hire a lawyer
And my boy Aaron once
Had my picture on his shelf
But now when I see him he tells me to f**k myself!
Well? Blame Canada
Blame Canada
It seems that everything's gone wrong
Since Canada came along
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
They're not even a real country anyway
My son could have been a doctor or a lawyer, rich and true
Instead he burned up like a piggy on a barbecue
Should we blame the matches?
Should we blame the fire?
Or the doctors who allowed him to expire?
Heck No
Blame Canada
Blame Canada
With all their hockey hullaballu
And that bitch Anne Murray too
Blame Canada
Shame on Canada
For the smut we must stop
The trash we must smash
Laughter and fun
must all be undone
We must blame them and cause a fuss
Before somebody thinks of blaming us!
I offer no apologies to South Park
Posted by: dmenche914 Nov 27 2005, 03:17 PM
Ok, got to laugh reading this thing. Looks like both parties should have had something in writting before cash was traded hands. Both parties equally at fault, but no big deal, live and learn. I'd never leave a deposit with out the full terms in writting, signed dated etc... Also I would not accept a deposit without the full terms in writting, signed dated etc...
Funny that the $11k rough estimate is about the standard price, and the options bump it up to the higher value. Just a hunch that maybe there was a missunderstanding on the the phone on the $11k, and since niether party got it in writting, we'll never know who really understood what was the real deal. So now we got a he said she said thing going. Maybe Jake ment to say the $11k was the non-option price, but he misspoke, or maybe the buyer missheard that the $11k was for the whole deal. Folks make mistakes. Paper work helps prevent mistakes.
This is really dumb, cause now there are accusations that quite frankly can't be backed up cause there was no paperwork when the money traded hands.
Shame on both of you for not putting it in writting, now go too your rooms and don't come out until you can both appologize for this stupid saga being posted here. I hope both of you learned from this experience. It cost both of you, Jake lost bussiness for his time slot, and the other guy lost his deposit. I say this should be a good leason learned for all of us on how important a contract is before money changes hands.
Frankly both you guys have embaressed yourselves by letting us all know how you made such a deal with no contract.
If your both real men, just apologize to each other (and please not on the public fourm, that would be grandstanding at this point) and move on.
That said I hope you get a nice engine, and that Jake continues to have good bussiness. I wish you both well.
Posted by: Brando Nov 27 2005, 03:52 PM
I think the big question unanswered here is:
"Would the $19.500 for that engine have been worth it?"
My answer... Oh hell yes. But not everyone has that kind of chump change.
Posted by: qa1142 Nov 27 2005, 04:00 PM
Listen
I talked with Jake on a kit. Yes he charges $$ and does great work. I decided I could not afford a full treat from him, no miss understanding, that said I puchased several key parts for my new motor from him knowing I got good advice (for free) and owed him the business.
What does any engine cost if it is coming from the top builder in the country? Top line 911 rebuld is more like $30K. Yes V8 crate motors can be had for $5K but what do you think Hendrick's or one of those guys would charge?
If I had deep pockets and full racer I would spend that kind of change. He gets enough business and does great work, no one who does business and buys his stuff complains.....do they?
Sorry you had miss communication, or that once he was talking $11K you still sent deposit.
Jake is high end, Matt Hoffman in high end, you pay the $$ you get really good 
My 2 cents
Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 27 2005, 04:46 PM
| QUOTE (qa1142 @ Nov 27 2005, 03:00 PM) |
| Jake is high end, Matt Hoffman in high end, you pay the $$ you get really good |
matt hoffman? the BMX legend?
or len hoffman, the vw head guy?
Posted by: scotty b Nov 27 2005, 05:14 PM
Mr Cox, I am Matt Hoffmans lawyer and want to inforn you in writing that you will soon be recieving a cease and decist order,banning you from using the likeness and name of my client in your online chatroom hyjinx. If you use Mr. hoffmans likeness one more time you will be subject to fines the like of which you have never seen Mr Hoffman makes his living off of his name and hard werk, and does not care for peons such as yourself to use it for their own personal gains.
Have a nice day, Herman How
Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 27 2005, 05:16 PM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 27 2005, 04:59 PM) |
| No. Blame Canada Blame Canada With all their beady little eyes And flapping heads so full of lies Blame Canada Blame Canada We need to form a full assault It's Canada's fault Don't blame me Well? Blame Canada Blame Canada It seems that everything's gone wrong Since Canada came along Blame Canada Blame Canada They're not even a real country anyway My son could have been a doctor or a lawyer, rich and true Instead he burned up like a piggy on a barbecue Should we blame the matches? Should we blame the fire? Or the doctors who allowed him to expire? Heck No Blame Canada Blame Canada With all their hockey hullaballu And that bitch Anne Murray too Blame Canada Shame on Canada For the smut we must stop The trash we must smash Laughter and fun must all be undone We must blame them and cause a fuss Before somebody thinks of blaming us! |
Slits...Canada says fuck you!
We still have the best weed
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Nov 27 2005, 05:53 PM
| QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 27 2005, 03:16 PM) |
| We still have the best weed |
And skinnier women (well, people in general from my observations)!
As to "chasing away someone"...well, if that's the way they want to handle the situation, let 'em! It's always being said in here you need a thick skin. And if people are airing their problems here then damn right we can respond as it is a public forum.
Hmmm, $20K for a silk-purse 4-banger (nice, JP!) or a race prepped 6-banger? Seems to me the six would win, what's $10K more for, well, more?
Of course, for a street car I wouldn't want the "race prepped" engine so that would be money saved If it'is true that Raby's engines are the best then heck yeah they're gonna cost more. You pay for what you get and he should run with that American Dream! And if someone has the money to burn, let'em burn it! If he really does need 914 like a hole in the head then screw him, I wouldn't want him either. My guess that was said in simple frustration (he does seem to be frustrated a lot) and I hope he didn't honestly mean it as his personal research has benefited the T4 engine community. Passion for what he does comes in spades but the boy needs to delegate and take more vacations or rest periods. Burning out in ones passion isn't a pleasant life experience!
I can't believe a lawyer would be worried over a public forum
Must be a green one...what's he gonna do, monitor every chat and BBS, tap phone lines, read people's mail, etc. so his poor wittle client doesn't get his itty bitty feewings hurt? 
Posted by: dmenche914 Nov 27 2005, 06:38 PM
So how much good canadian grass can you stuff in the trunks, and send on south? Seems we need to smoke the mellow, or even the bomb. Can't you see we need to chill, send it south man, send it south.
Hey with the interest in alternate fuels, why not a pot burning 914 (hell VW had wood burning Bugs back in WWII days, really)
It would save oil, employ farmers, can been grown domestically, and would really lessen the impact of smog (or at least our negitive impressions of smog)!
Canada could form OPBC (Organization of Pot Burning Countries)!
Posted by: Long Prong Nov 27 2005, 07:09 PM
isnt everything legal in Canada?
Posted by: Joe Ricard Nov 27 2005, 07:38 PM
This thread cracks me up. However there is alot of wisdom spoken by a few people here. Couple of old guys and some with the insight of the operation. I know what the Jake's big motors cost, seen the bill my self. Promised not to let it out and I am a man of MY word. (buddy you ain't even close)
Couple pages back someone complained about not getting his car fixed all summer. Geesh you coulda bought a book and done it yourself!!!
Why is it that some people are afraid of a little grease and oil. If you think there is ONLY one person that can build a freaking engine.... well pay the nice man and move on.
I agree there was some miscomunication on both sides. Nobodies perfect and as long as you learn from your mistakes well Great. IF IT AIN'T IN WRITING 
Posted by: qa1142 Nov 27 2005, 08:16 PM
| QUOTE (Aaron Cox @ Nov 27 2005, 02:46 PM) | ||
matt hoffman? the BMX legend? or len hoffman, the vw head guy? |
matt len what the H_lls the difference
I would still have Jake build me a motor is money was no object.
Posted by: LvSteveH Nov 27 2005, 08:51 PM
I think Jake is off his meds, and I like the guy. I just checked his forum at www.shoptalkforums.com (scroll down to Aircooled Technology) and read some of his "announcements"
This whole $200 to get on the waiting list, then, at some point in the distant future, he'll put a proposal together which will include more specific pricing, and at that point 50% of the balance is due without question, is just nuckin futz.
He considers it backing out if you put down $200 to get on the waiting list, then you decline once the proposal is made. I kind of like the idea of paying a small refundable amount to get on the waiting list. It weeds out many of the dreamers. There should be no hard feelings at all if someone chooses to decline the final proposal months later. At that point, you'd cheerfully refund the money, thank them for the interest free loan, and move on to the next guy on your year long wait list.
It is pure insanity to expect someone to be held to numbers that are totally at your discretion.
If you go read his announcement in the aforementioned forum, he says and I quote:
"Porsche 914 customers have left me high and dry more than anyone else (sorry guys it's the truth) in fact 13 out of the 14 times this has occured in the last 4 years. So this is the 914 payment schedule
-90% of the ESTIMATED cost of the engine before being added to the wait list.
- Remainder due within 10 days of the completion of the engine.
The proposal process is altered for the 914 customers due to the 90% payment up front, my lawyer will handle this process for 914 customers and it will occur immediately upon the start of the project."
Notice that he refers to 90% of the ESTIMATED cost.......... he's telling us all to kiss his ass.
Genius may in fact be maddening. Oh, for the record, Jake has not contributed any worthwhile technical assistance for quite some time.
(To any lawyers who may take issue with the above, they are only my opinions to which I am fully entitled. Any attempts to use the Americans with Disabilities Act to justify the behavior in question will be immediately laughed at without reservation.)
Posted by: ppickerell Nov 27 2005, 08:53 PM
If you plunk down a deposit on a 10-20K motor and do not have a bid in writing then you are almost as dumb as me!!!!
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 27 2005, 09:23 PM
The silence is deafening........
Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 27 2005, 09:26 PM
Posted by: Dead Air Nov 27 2005, 09:58 PM
| QUOTE (Mark Henry @ Nov 27 2005, 03:16 PM) | ||
Slits...Canada says fuck you! We still have the best weed |
[QUOTE]
I was wondering how you made your living up there!
So the VW thing is just a cover?
Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 27 2005, 10:05 PM
It's a cash crop
Posted by: SLITS Nov 27 2005, 10:17 PM
The line between insanity and sanity is only measured on a scale of success......
And to Canada, our brethern to the North, I say...we can fly your flag better than you can......
PS...Send better weed..the Mexican shit is giving me the runs.
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 27 2005, 10:20 PM
SLITS, my crazy neighbor.....
the Mexican stuff makes me cough way too much....and it smells like gear oil too.
Posted by: SLITS Nov 27 2005, 10:23 PM
| QUOTE (bd1308 @ Nov 27 2005, 09:20 PM) |
| SLITS, my crazy neighbor..... the Mexican stuff makes me cough way too much....and it smells like gear oil too. |
Hmmmmm....you must be gettin' your shit from TIT.***
***Tijuana Institute of Technology
Posted by: messix Nov 27 2005, 10:25 PM
my .02 . not every one that has a teener needs, can afford, or will want a [not to offend you jake] a over enginiered over refined engine.
for me when the time comes for the rebuild or six or ever eight conversion, i wont be building a daytona 500 capable v8, for a 24hrs le mans six. or a 2270 t4 that will only make 150hp but will out last me and the sheet metal on my teener.
i bought this car for; fun, fuel economy, and some thing that i won't lose value on. a $19K motor defeats most of that.
so jake is the guy to go to if you can't have anything but the best.
the rest of us will have to do what we can to find the best bang or best value that is in our budget.
jake needs to realize he has gone to the far side of what people will spend for an "affordable sports car", and be very frank on that point.
that is my puffed up ego centric opinion and i'm stickin to it.
p.s. for everone who bitches about how over rated or expensive jake is. step up do some research or post who you have found that can rebuild/ build a reliable quality t4 or start doing it your self if you feel you can do it.
jake i ask you to come down from your standard of excelence to offer truely affordable kits.
Posted by: Lou W Nov 27 2005, 10:27 PM
Are we up to page 5 yet? 
Posted by: Mark Henry Nov 27 2005, 10:29 PM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 28 2005, 12:17 AM) |
| PS...Send better weed..the Mexican shit is giving me the runs. |
I'd send the weed bro, but your guberment don't want ya to have the good shit.
Oh-oh....I've turned this into a political thread and now she'll be locked
Posted by: SLITS Nov 27 2005, 10:29 PM
Yes it is true, our gooberment doesn't inhale!
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 27 2005, 10:51 PM
is the Canadian Gold legal there?
b
Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 27 2005, 10:54 PM
| QUOTE (Lou W @ Nov 27 2005, 08:27 PM) |
| Are we up to page 5 yet? |
i am only on page 2. i changed my settings to read 100 posts per page
(oops, just started page 3. must be upt o 200 replies.
)
Posted by: Tettster Nov 27 2005, 11:01 PM
Uhhh... Are you sure about that 200 count, Trojanman?
Attached image(s)
Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 27 2005, 11:01 PM
I commented in the post Jake made. He invited the comments by posting. You all know how I feel about the things he posted. Jake your a rude little man. You need to get a clue. Based on the other side of the story you also need to learn a serious business lesson. Your State Commerce Dept would roast you if they knew what you were up to. When I owned a shop I was required by law to give a written estimate. I was also not allowed to increase that written estimate beyond 10% without an agreed written change order. Shame on you for taking money without a written agreement.
Charge what you like but be up front about it. Build the best danm motors on the planet. But when you increase someones estimate by double and they get shocked out of their skull don't come over here crying about how you've been wronged. Call 914 people names, and threaten to never build another motor for 914 guy. 
Posted by: TROJANMAN Nov 27 2005, 11:20 PM
| QUOTE (Tettster @ Nov 27 2005, 09:01 PM) |
| Uhhh... Are you sure about that 200 count, Trojanman? |
had it backwards.
i meant: 100 threads per page on in the forum and 40 posts per page on the topic. that would put us at 81. oops
thanks for pointing that out. fuchin' newbie.
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 27 2005, 11:26 PM
Posted by: grantsfo Nov 27 2005, 11:56 PM
Posted by: Dan (Almaden Valley) Nov 28 2005, 12:09 AM
Posted by: Lou W Nov 28 2005, 12:15 AM
good night gracie.
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 28 2005, 12:28 AM
If I read the posts right, Rog914 not only lost his $200 deposit, but the core 2L engine too. Thats worth quite a bit too...
Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Nov 28 2005, 06:22 AM
I got up early this A.M. to get the latest Jake news. Wow, (5) pages.
If what I am hearing is true Jake's "terms & condition of sale" is reason to drop him off the page. I agree with Rick-918-S & Bowlsby there are two sides to this story and Jake is not a fair bussinessman with that deal. It's all in his favor. Would you build a house with those conditions?? Answer=NO.
Having said that we need to start a thread with a list of other engine builders out there. I agree with another post not everyone needs a custom engine. How about a normal quality built engine. I'll call my engine builder today & see if he is still building type-4s.
Tom
Posted by: meares Nov 28 2005, 06:50 AM
my question is.....why just $200 dep. for such a kick ass engine? damn Jake, with your talent, bump it up to 75% of projected cost to separate the men from the boys
Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Nov 28 2005, 07:24 AM
Meares.
When you purchase any high end stuff, think like a business. There are procedures for qualifing customers. The first rule is a complete quote of the service/product. Jake & customer should go over the written quote item for item. Both sign off after they agree to price, terms of payment, delivery (big one). If necessasry a businessman will take a credit check if in doubt. There are many ways for Jake to protect his cash flow. Example, 10% at time of order, payment in full when parts are received then progress payments as work progresses. Remember everything starts with a clear understanding at the time of the purchase order. Forgot to mention it's common to have change orders along the way. They must be signed off before starting work. This is just an example. Just good business 101. From what I understand everything went wrong when they both didn't communicate. I really feel bad for Ralph, he probabally thought he was getting all the bells & whissels (spell??) & saved for his quoted $11K dream engine. Jake is the businessman and gone through this many times. Shame on him for not guiding his customer along. After hearing all these things, Jake should take more responsibilty for his actions. He treated the problem like the world was against him. This other side of the story tells us different.
Tom
Off my soap box. There are other engine builders out there. We need to develop a list for our guys so they have a choice.
Posted by: meares Nov 28 2005, 07:32 AM
yep....being clear and concise solves A LOT!!!!
Posted by: blitZ Nov 28 2005, 07:49 AM
| QUOTE (Thomas J Bliznik @ Nov 28 2005, 04:22 AM) |
| Having said that we need to start a thread with a list of other engine builders out there. I agree with another post not everyone needs a custom engine. How about a normal quality built engine. I'll call my engine builder today & see if he is still building type-4s. |
I would like to see this also. Seems like there should be some dependable alternatives for us poor folks.
Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 28 2005, 08:47 AM
Nothing against Jake, He has his market. But Who builds 914 motors for the working stiff?
Posted by: SLITS Nov 28 2005, 09:27 AM
Precision Motion / Kravig Engineering (Riverside, CA) has / had a completely rebuilt 2.0L. Their price was $4500.
Car Craft (Riverside, CA) would build a stock type 4, assuming no extensive headwork, for about $1300.
Others can now chime in.............
Posted by: dmenche914 Nov 28 2005, 11:34 AM
It is not only Jake that made the mistake of no contract. the buyer made the mistake of sending his money with no contract. It may have not been easy come, but it was easy go. Both parties equally dumb. Buyer beware is always a good thing to remember. I beware before I part with cash and no contract. Both the bussiness man and the buyer should know better. Yeah there are some states with laws requiring contract for automotive repair (California has a state department for that(which i think is a waste of my tax money) If people is so dumb to part with money like that, the state really has no bussiness stopping them. But I guess that is government protecting somefolks from themselves, which skews the whole thing. Folks think the government should protect them, or have this attidute that, hey I didn't make a dumb mistake sending money to someone with no contract, thus I will bitch and moan. Help I need the government to protect me, I am too stupid to handle my own affairs as an adult!!! Look i assume you both are over 18 years of age, and should know better, have a little more sense of the value of money, and the importance of a contract.
That said, Ken Jenson at Donsco in Belmont CA does nice engine work. Made me a nice 2180 for my bug, he has type I, IV and 356 engines l last I saw in his shop. When i made the deal with him, We both sat down and and got an estimate wrote up. He sestimated labour and parts, and we came pretty damn close to that target. (some parts had slightly changed in price, and we discovered some extra headwork was required, but it was all understood and written down. no law prompted this written contract (although there might be a law for it in Nazi California) Law or not, I would have never even left my engine much less a deposit without some contract. The engine builder also wanted it in writting, gawd, could that just be common sense?
Seems a lot of common sense is lacking, no contracts (both parties fault) Public dissing (not good for bussiness) (and it makes the buyer look even more the fool) (hey I have a car for sale, please mail me cash as a deposit, well discuss price and condition later!)
Now only 914 owners have to pay up front? i guess if i ever get a raby engine it is going in my Bug or Bus or Ghia, not my 914.
This whole thing has broken down fast. The internet can make or break a reputation fast. We got two guys just shooting themselves in the foot over and over again. It was intersting at first (good for a few laughes) but hell jokes get old.
I think the joke is on both you jokers. Ha Ha Ha, and it just keeps going.
Posted by: SLITS Nov 28 2005, 12:43 PM
| QUOTE (dmenche914 @ Nov 28 2005, 10:34 AM) |
| no law prompted this written contract (although there might be a law for it in Nazi California) |
B.A.R. = Bureau of Automotive Repair (That damn Nazi organization)
Posted by: Brando Nov 28 2005, 01:09 PM
| QUOTE (SLITS @ Nov 28 2005, 07:27 AM) |
| Precision Motion / Kravig Engineering (Riverside, CA) has / had a completely rebuilt 2.0L. Their price was $4500. Car Craft (Riverside, CA) would build a stock type 4, assuming no extensive headwork, for about $1300. Others can now chime in............. |
Not to mention you can walk into a dealership and ask for a 2.0L Type IV crate motor. Sure it would come from Germany, but it would still be less than $6000.
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 28 2005, 01:12 PM
consensus= This ain't `Nam, this is bowling....there are rules in bowling.
quote from "The Big Lebowski"
b
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 01:34 PM
OK..
Now this side of the story.
First off this was a PROPOSAL, it was not a tally at the END of a build like so many builders will take advantage of. At this point of my process the customer gets a feel for what I am including in the engine package to make it "up to speed". I do this because I know what the base engine was equipped with and I also know what the engine will need to meet the customer's desires (at minimum).
I do this proposal at the point I do because I want to ensure that the customer knows exactly what things are going to cost and when I will be finished. Unlike other establishments you get no suprises at the end of the project as this document states the exact cost to the dollar except shipping. when a customer and I first make contact it can be as much as a solid year before we get to the proposal process. in ROG 914's case it was about 10 months if my memory serves me correctly. A whole lot can happen in 10 months time and due to that an estimated cost is something that I can't even think about giving accurately that far in advance. In the last 10 months gas prices went up almost 2 dollars a gallon in some places and some of my parts are now 100 bucks more than they were then. The price of Len's cylinder head work has also increased, these are just a couple of things that increase the difficulty of my projects and customer relations when customers remain on the wait list for so long.
Keep in mind that its TOTALLY normal for me to hear horror stories from other establishments that have no proposal process. It is typical for these shops to upcharge the customer 30-50% at the end of the build, after the job is done and I have heard as much as 70% from one Porsche shop in Florida. Remember that all I had from ROG914 money wise was 200.00, not 2K and not 5K+.
When ROG 914 and myself spoke I was right smack dab in the mdlle of testing EFI systems (and I told him that) I had no idea which system I was going to use and I had no what throttle bodies, fuel pump and etc was going to work the best, nor did i know how much extra time I was going to have to expend to tune the EFI system on the dyno. This WAS more than I had anticipated when he and I spoke, and we discussed that fact.
I then break down some of the most important parts of the things I have chosen as part of the baseline prices, these are known as "Inclusive options". Basically they are things that would be an option and *COULD* be taken away if the cost of the base engine is out of the persons budget. If you do the math there you will see that 2,191.00 of the cost of the base engine could have been discounted. This would have lowered the "New parts" tally to 5,706.00 which is only slightly more than the cost of a 2270 engine kit. (kit cost about 4,700.00 and that difference would have been with his cylinder head work.
Now we get to the options portion of the proposal... This is 100% CUSTOMER CHOSEN and NONE of it is a must for the engine to perform to the likeness of it's "base engine" derivative. Doing thisngs this way lets the customer trick the engine out as much as they want, but still remain within their own budget, since they are picking the options. Lets go over them real quick
$400 Crygenic treatment upgrade (full engine treatment)
>>>>I already cryo a huge chunk of the engine. This upgrade is less than the cost of even doing 1/4 of the engine if you do it off the street, but it gets everything that benefits from cryo processed. Is this a must- Nope...
$275 Ion Nitrided crankshaft
>>>> This is mostly for race engines, but I give this option to those who are interested in Nickies because that means thay are already concerned with longevity and this process is all about longevity. Is it a must- Nope.
$125 Lightened flywheel
>>>> This is an option because some 914 customers don't wish to have their lightened. Is it a must- Nope.
$2,800 Upgrade to programmable EFI
>>>> This is the cost to upgrade to a 100% complete EFI arrangement and have it installed on the engine and TUNED. The tuning of this arrangement can effectively double the amount of time that the engine is on the dyno and it requires myself AND Brent to do it, instead of ONLY my time. The kit is complete from the fuel pump to the pressure regulator and the customer's parts are used for tuning. This allows the customer to install the engine and only have to set deceleration values. Ask Mueller how much of a benefit this is! Is this a necessity- Nope because carbs were included in the base engine.
$810 Performance engine coatings package (thermal barrier, friction reduction & heat dispersants)
>>> This is for the POFESSIONAL application of coatings to the entire engine. This includes shiping incurred to get these components to THREE different coaters across the country as not one of them has the best proceses for all the components. This is NOT marked up a penny on this proposal, it just adds to the life and temperatures of my engine. Is it a necessity- Nope.
$2,000 LN Engineering Nickies cylinders (if available)
>>>>Self explanatory and they are 350 bucks LESS than LN charges for them.
$1,250 914 DTM upgrade
>>>The customer ASKED for this to be included specifically and it is 100% complete with all of it's hardware and sealing tin and 99% of it is installed. Is it a necessity- Nope.
$145 Full flow oiling system upgrades
>>>>This one is an option for teeners because it requires more work to install into the car if the DTM is not used and some people do not want to spring for it and the hasseles involved. Its 15 bucks more than the full flow kit on my site. necessity- Nope.
$92 6 puck performance cluch disk
>>>> Same price it cost on my site.. It does not have to be used but it has much better longevity with serious power than anything else..
So as you can see that entire engine with more things added to it than it needs definately adds up to a big price tag. If you will not ALL the options that took the price form 11K clear to 19K were only parts additions, most of which were not marked up over retail and most that were BELOW retail. Yet again this was a proposal and the customer had 100% control of the reins and what he wanted to spend for the project. This is the reason why I do a proposal and stick to it during the entire build process, it helps keep things clear that have so many variables- the engine has over 400 parts that comprise it top to bottom so as you can guess this can get amazingly diffiult to keep track of without the proposal.
Now for 19K what would the customer have gotten?? Well first off if he chose all those items I would have went ahea and upgraded him to a 2563cc / 200HP engine for the same cost, because all those exotic components cost the same for a 2270 or a 2563. The head work would have been more but more than likely I would have eat that myself. Since the engine has all the components of a Super Hero the labor to build it would be the same as the much larger and more powerful Super Hero engine. This would certainly help make the cost more justifible to the customer and woulod have yielded an engine with the same life span, same maintenance and same MPG- just more power. Have I done this before?? You damn right, probably 5 times in the past two years.
Now lets get to the heart of this particular story:
When the customer received this proposal he mentioned that the $$ was a concern. I then told him that he could step back down to the base engine (nothing wrong with that) as it would serve his purpose just fine and make a solid 155HP and live an 80+K life span. He then seemed like he didn't know what to do so I told him to sleep on it for a couple of days and let me know what he wanted to do. At this point I expressed my dis-taste for builds that do not go through and since he is a member here he surely already knew this. Upon contact the 3rd time he said that he did not wish to go forward and at that point I told him that we could settle for a less expensive base engine to keep prices down if that was a problem. He then stated that the money he had set aside for the project had fizzled away and he did not want to go forward... Now with that last sentence stated, why does the cost matter? I had already made more than one attempt to keep the customer happy and kept him from falling out of line, in fact I told him I would do whatever he needed (within reason) to keep that from occuring. Now the base engine was about 600 bucks more than he thought it was going to be for 10 months and it would not have EFI or coating or Nickies but it would still generate about the same HP, so why didn't he make a compromise???? did he lack even the 11K that the build was "estimated" to cost?? Only he knows that.
This customer and myself have talked multiple tmes since January and we always got along. Hell, he even sent me a vintage valve grinding machine before we were even discussing an engine build! Even though he has diclosed information here that may be detrimental to my business if the individual does not read my side of the story- I don't care. I have never been "mad" at him, I was disappointed that this happened again and it happened with another 914 customer- maybe that was just a coincidence, but 13 out of 14 seems pretty consistent to me and it certainly deserved some head scratching.
So.. What does this boil down to?? The customer was told a rough estimate for an engine that was going to include two components that were not even developed yet and still under going test work. One was the EFI and the other was the 914 DTM, both of which are expensive units and the 914 DTM is still not 100% ready to retail even as we speak.
Yes, perhaps I was wrong with the quote, but this just further teaches me not to give any quotes until the proposal is ready and we are within a few WEEKS of beginning the process.
I want to go a little further with this post and say the following: This last little problem has convinced me that my system needs improvement if we will having wait times that are approaching past the 5 month mark. None of these things were as bad when I had a 4-7 month wait as they are now that I have a 7+ month wait. I will continue working off the backlogs and I will not take on any more engine build jobs (no spots held) until I have the wait list down below 6 months so it is managable.
I have also decided that 914 engines will not be custom any longer and only a couple of options will be available. I will only off the 2270, 2316 and 2563cc combinations and the only Nickies engine available will be the 2563. Coatings are no longer an option, neither are the things that can make engine builds get out of control parts wise. This will hopefully make things easier for me and more stream lined.
As I had said before, I had no hard feelings for ROG914. At least we were able to get this situation taken care of before the job was underay and more than just 200.00 was in question. The proposal did its job and spelled things out clearly and allowed the custiomer to employ as much of my development as he wanted. The proposal is there with NO FINE PRINT up front- it doesn't get any better than that and if i could do a proposal 8 months in advance, I would. I try my hardest to make enough updates that in 8 months the engine thats proposaed would be able to benefit from more advancements. The thing thats worse than anything is modifying an existing proposal to incorporate new advancements 1/2 way through the job- I don't do it because every time that I have I lost my ass! Heck in 8 months i hope to have roller lifters as an option for every engine I build- but since I have no idea what that cost will be in the end how can I propose it now??? Thats just an example of why I wait till I am 8 weeks out before doing a proposal.
If you guys here are upset with me, or the way i have handled this- I'm sorry. All I can say is that this business is VERY hard to run due to the fact that I do not wish to be a "job shop" and just turn engines out as mass produced units. The point of being fair to myself and the customer is VERY hard to dictate and I try the best I can to do so. I feel quite sure that the long wait times and the complexity of my engines are the root of these issues and thats why I can see that changes are necessary that I previously had not considered.(the biggest being going back to more standardized builds)
I know there are a few club members that are taking this rare opportunity of a displeased customer to bash me, or kick me in the gut. All I can say to that is that, well they don't get the chance very often and they better take those shots while they can.
BTW- as far as not being of much technical assistance lately- well you can think 
for that.. I got tired of making posts that eneded up on someone else's website. It appears that he may be gone now (at least he is off the samba) so I might be able to share information more often without being worried about it getting copied.
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 28 2005, 02:01 PM
ok, thanks Jake for the post, clears up a few things
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 02:04 PM
I could have written for days, but I figured an hour or so was enough..
What one hell of a way to start a week!
Posted by: Mueller Nov 28 2005, 02:06 PM
| QUOTE (Bleyseng @ Nov 28 2005, 01:01 PM) |
| ok, thanks Jake for the post, clears up a few things |
w/Geoff.....basicly it appears to be "feature" creep, the buyer kept adding options...we've all been guilty of that whether buying a new car, a new house or a even a pizza
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 02:22 PM
Absolutely.... I can post that entire portion of the proposal... The customer has to INITIAL next to the option they want to add. The inclusive options are added into the cost of the NEW PARTS and their labor to install is also added in to the flat labor rate.
This way the customer is in control- not me and they can spend as much as they want making the engine better, or just stay with the base engine as it includes everything they need for the bold price listed before options are even mentioned.
Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Nov 28 2005, 02:22 PM
Thanks Jake, I am satisified.
Very professional and glad you waited for the shit to float to the bottom of the ocean before your reply.
Hopefully you hold no animosity toward our posts. We now know all the facts. What I learned is that many of our 914er's need more standard built motors and they need to learn to ask questions (business 101).
Case Closed, we all learned something.
Tom
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 02:30 PM
| QUOTE |
| Very professional and glad you waited for the shit to float to the bottom of the ocean before your reply |
well all except for the grammar from hell and multiple type-Os... LOL
I was away at the new house working all weekend and only came back here once to grab the specs for flat vws engine tune up and didn't see this till I logged in today..... It just so happens that it worked out well because I was able to see it when I had plenty of time to reply and had a few avenues to blow off some steam that didn't show me going burzerk!
Like my dad always says " A littlie bit of good comes out of everything bad".. Thats exactly how my proposal evolved from 2 paragraphs to over 4 solid pages! Its also the thing that has developed every engine that I have ever built.....
I used to have a sample proposal on my site- looks like its time to reload that puppy and get a better system at the same time.
Posted by: trekkor Nov 28 2005, 03:05 PM
Jake, I applaud you 
All the money and business stuff aside.
You kept your cool and I respect you for that.
I'll never spend that kind of money for *ANY* motor.
Then again, there are prospective clients of mine who won't *EVER* pay what I ask for my tile work either.
You have enough work to get you by... So do I.
KT
Posted by: Flat VW Nov 28 2005, 03:15 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 28 2005, 12:30 PM) |
| I was away at the new house working all weekend and only came back here once to grab the specs for flat vws engine tune up ... |
thanks again, Jake,
John
Posted by: Lou W Nov 28 2005, 03:23 PM
| QUOTE |
| trekkor Posted on Nov 28 2005, 02:05 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jake, I applaud you All the money and business stuff aside. You kept your cool and I respect you for that. |
Posted by: Tobra Nov 28 2005, 03:26 PM
Wow, this was interesting. After I get the practice paid off, it will take me between 3 and 6 months to afford it, but none of this has changed any of my plans. I still think young Mr. Raby needs to have a business manager to deal with the money end, that is the direction all your headaches will come from.
I wonder why 13 of the last 14 flake outs have been 914's, maybe the cars they were going to put the motors in rusted away and disintegrated in the intervening period.
Posted by: Flat VW Nov 28 2005, 03:27 PM
| QUOTE (trekkor @ Nov 28 2005, 01:05 PM) |
| Then again, there are prospective clients of mine who won't *EVER* pay what I ask for my tile work either. |
A pal of my used to say, "The most one will ever "get" of a given market is 50%".....
"Because there is 25% you don't want, and another 25% who don't want you"........
John
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 03:29 PM
Trekkor, Keeping my cool was very hard- I have to admit... But i saw that all the negative posts originated simply because the story had not been fully told.
Most of the costs of my engines are in their parts- as you can clearly see... My labor was not even 1/4 of even the price tag that was approaching 20K fully optioned.
The time has come for standardized 2270 and 2316 engines, while they will benefit from developments that come from the Super Hero engines... Custom builds (at least for 914 applications) will be limited only to Super Hero base engines..
Posted by: KaptKaos Nov 28 2005, 03:45 PM
Jake,
I think the problem lies in the secrecy that you use to run your business. I understand that there are competitive issues that are forcing this behavior. But when you get into a group like this one, that sort of behavior tends to create gossip.
So the line you are walking, what to disclose and what not to disclose, fuels the rumor mill. It sucks because there are people that will use your hard work as their own, but that seems to be a cost of doing business.
Thanks for the peek behind the curtain. It's good to know what custom engines costs.
Good response BTW.
Posted by: Lou W Nov 28 2005, 03:56 PM
| QUOTE |
| KaptKaos Posted on Nov 28 2005, 02:45 PM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jake, I think the problem lies in the secrecy that you use to run your business. I understand that there are competitive issues that are forcing this behavior. But when you get into a group like this one, that sort of behavior tends to create gossip. So the line you are walking, what to disclose and what not to disclose, fuels the rumor mill. It sucks because there are people that will use your hard work as their own, but that seems to be a cost of doing business. Thanks for the peek behind the curtain. It's good to know what custom engines costs. Good response BTW. |
Good Point
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 04:21 PM
Did Colenol Sanders ever release the recipe for KFC?? How about Coca Cola- anyone have the recipe handy?? Nope....
Most people don't know exactly what I do differently from the other guys that makes more power and doesn't hurt the longevity of the engine- in fact not even Brent does!
I learned long ago that as soon as one does anything different and makes themselves noticed the gossip and rumors begin... It sucks because I have the same kind of stress that a damn politician would have, but I don't get all their fring benefits!
I also learned long ago that success brings enemies, Thomas edison learned the same thing about 75 years before I was born. He didn't let it bother him, he used it as fuel for his fire and I try like hell to do the same thing. I don't mind the fact that some people absolutely can't stand me, because I have made those happy that have followed my path and gave me their money and those are the only ones that I have to please when it comes down to judgement day... Most of those that hate me, don't know me or they are jealous because they'd love to be doing what I do but they lack the drive to do it efffectively- it pisses them off and it shopuld because they CAN do it, if they dedicate themselves to it.
I have no special talemnt, and I work with tools not a magic wand. I have not done anything that anyone else can't do with the same amount of trial, eror, experienece and dedication... The difference is I don't mind taking risks and I don't mind spending more money than I make to keep developing things- thats the secret recipe.
Posted by: KaptKaos Nov 28 2005, 04:31 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 28 2005, 02:21 PM) |
| Did Colenol Sanders ever release the recipe for KFC?? How about Coca Cola- anyone have the recipe handy?? Nope.... Most people don't know exactly what I do differently from the other guys that makes more power and doesn't hurt the longevity of the engine- in fact not even Brent does! I learned long ago that as soon as one does anything different and makes themselves noticed the gossip and rumors begin... It sucks because I have the same kind of stress that a damn politician would have, but I don't get all their fring benefits! I also learned long ago that success brings enemies, Thomas edison learned the same thing about 75 years before I was born. He didn't let it bother him, he used it as fuel for his fire and I try like hell to do the same thing. I don't mind the fact that some people absolutely can't stand me, because I have made those happy that have followed my path and gave me their money and those are the only ones that I have to please when it comes down to judgement day... Most of those that hate me, don't know me or they are jealous because they'd love to be doing what I do but they lack the drive to do it efffectively- it pisses them off and it shopuld because they CAN do it, if they dedicate themselves to it. I have no special talemnt, and I work with tools not a magic wand. I have not done anything that anyone else can't do with the same amount of trial, eror, experienece and dedication... The difference is I don't mind taking risks and I don't mind spending more money than I make to keep developing things- thats the secret recipe. |
My post was in the context of this group and forum. Not so much about your paying customers. I think we all would like the ability to get one of your motors. Not knowing what that really means is part of the fuel for this rumor mill.
I wouldn't disclose anything either. I just wanted to give my opinion on why this subject/thread got as much attention as it did.
Posted by: cardiaceagle Nov 28 2005, 04:33 PM
This way the customer is in control- not me
BTDT.....can't run my jobs (home building) that way.....
Posted by: Mueller Nov 28 2005, 04:33 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 28 2005, 03:21 PM) |
| Did Colenol Sanders ever release the recipe for KFC?? How about Coca Cola- anyone have the recipe handy?? Nope.... |
| QUOTE |
| genuine KFC secret recipe 2 cups flour 1/2 tsp salt 1/2 tsp thyme 1/2 tsp basil 1/2 tsp oregano 1 tbsp celery salt 1 tbsp black pepper 1 tbsp dry mustard 4 tbsp paprika 2 tsp garlic salt 1 tsp ground ginger 3 tbsp MSG (Accent) Mix all ingredients well in a large bowl. Dip chicken pieces in beaten eggs Then turn them over in regular bread crumbs (commercial) Finally plunge them in the flour-spices mixture (above) Heat oven to 350 degrees Place chicken in a tray and cover with foil (shiny side out) Cook 40 minutes. Remove the foil then cook for another 40 minutes Baste lightly with oil 5 minutes before the end Let stand 5 minutes and serve. |
| QUOTE |
Purported Coke secret recipe one This recipe is attributed to a sheet of paper found in an old formulary book owned by Coca-Cola inventor, John S. Pemberton, just before his death (U.S. measures): 1 oz citrate caffeine 3 oz citric acid 1 fl oz extract vanilla 1 qt lime juice 2½ oz flavoring 30 lb (14 kg) sugar 4 fl oz fluid extract of coca (decocainized flavor essence of the coca leaf) 2½ gal water Caramel sufficient 80 Oil orange 40 Oil cinnamon 120 Oil lemon 20 Oil coriander 40 Oil nutmeg 40 Oil neroli 1 qt alcohol "Mix caffeine acid and lime juice in 1 quart boiling water add vanilla and flavoring when cool. Let stand for 24 hours. Flavoring is likely a mixture orange oil, lemon, nutmeg oil, cinnamon oil, coriander oil, neroli oil and 1 quart of alcohol." |
Posted by: Flat VW Nov 28 2005, 04:40 PM
| QUOTE (Mueller @ Nov 28 2005, 02:33 PM) | ||
|
I always thought Coke had some clove in it.
J
Posted by: McMark Nov 28 2005, 04:51 PM
Well written Jake. 
Posted by: zymurgist Nov 28 2005, 05:01 PM
Mueller... doesn't the "F" in KFC stand for "Fried"?
Posted by: Headrage Nov 28 2005, 05:08 PM
My first job in 1973 was working at a KFC.
It was all pressure cooked.
Posted by: LvSteveH Nov 28 2005, 05:52 PM
Well, we can’t let you totally off the hook, because you singled out 914 owners as the source of all your misery. I’d challenge you to define what a “typical” 914 owner is and how they are any different from anyone else.
You still take it way too personally when someone declines the final proposal 10 months after they got on the list. You were quick to mention how much things have changed in that time, with fuel and parts prices. Well, life changes too, and at a much faster rate than anything else.
You have capitalized on the fact that your personality allows you to focus on something and do it well. You can control virtually every aspect of the process….with exception of the customer. A customer is nothing like a crankshaft or procedure that can be rationally ordered and processed. The way you see it, the customer is just waiting in line to be processed, and that is a model for failure. Keep doing what you do well, but you need to revise your process so that you can accommodate the inevitable challenges that will come your way.
You mentioned that when someone declines a proposal it throws off your schedule for the whole year. The problem is that you obviously built a schedule with the anticipation of 100% acceptance of your proposals. You could build a business model that expects a 90% acceptance rate, but you would be better off just accepting the fact that some of your time is going to be spent on motors that never see the light of day.
Now, if you can just come up with a nice, solid 150hp 2270 with nickies and ceramic lifters that can be bought for $8000, I think you’d be surprised at how many people take you up on it. You wouldn’t need exotic head work or other state of the art features to make 150hp that will run 100k miles. As the value of these cars increases, $8000 for a nice street motor is going to become increasingly attractive.
Keep up the good work. People can say a lot of things about Jake Raby, but boring and indifferent are not among them.
Posted by: Rog914 Nov 28 2005, 05:57 PM
Yes, I could of took less. Take the Nickies off, That I asked for. Take off the engine coating package, that I asked for, Heck why not bring some of those cracked finned cylinders. Do I really need thoses fins on them cylinders? No, they only help keep the engine a little cooler. Come on Jake you know what I asked for. I asked for a 2270cc with Nickies, the special coatings, EFI, DTM, all the bells & whisles. Anything less was not the engine I was putting my deposit on. Yes, you were working on the EFI as we first talked. But you seem to always low ball the prices of your engines. Even when you were looking for someone to take my spot here on this board you stated "Anywhere from 7K clear to 14.5K could be the end result". When $19,547 is the end result Not 14.5K.
Ok, so let me get this right. When you get an engine from you,you start off with a phone call like I did and get a "rough" estimate ($11,000). Then send $200 deposit. Then phone calls every now & then. Send core engine down to you. Then 10 months later you give proposal that shows $11,000 "rough" estimate is now $19,547. Now I'm in "control" to bargian down to one I did not ask for. And no way go to the back of the list and let someone most likely be glad to have an ealier spot thats waiting for a 2270cc. And now finding out all the price increases, not keeping client inform so you can't get your deposit or engine core back.
Thanks it's been an expensive lesson on engine builders, Ralph
Posted by: Rockaria Nov 28 2005, 06:02 PM
What blows my mind is thinking...
"$19,000 for an engine... AND I have to supply the core..."
Wow... That just strikes me as wild... Just think of the cool engines I could get and install for my 914 that will do equal power for half that cost... Sure it wont be a TIV, but man... 
Posted by: SLITS Nov 28 2005, 06:22 PM
Round 2 or 3?
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 06:22 PM
ROG914,
I have explained myself as thoroughly as I see fit and won't go into further detail. Fact is that I have NEVER sold a 2270 engine for 19,547 bucks- i do believe the most expensive to date is 15K. Most people that want that many options want a larger displacement engine, like the 2563...
If you have further questions/comments you have my email address. The continual posts and the fact that THIS WAS NEVER BROUGHT UP TO ME VIA EMAIL OR PHONE only proves your true intent. One thing that really annoys me are people that won't say anything to your face, but then come here to a forum and spill the beans before they are cooked. This could have also been taken up on my forum, but of course I moderate it and the damage may noyt have been as bad as one may have anticipated here.... Hell if you would have approached me in any way other than this you probably would have gotten the 200.00 back and maybe even the core- not a snowballs chance in hell thats happening now!
On second thought if I give him back the 200 bucks and the core he would not have a leg to stand on.... or a gripe in the world with me.....Hmmmn
As far as a 19K engine- I have 5 engines in my super hero line up that are going for 23K+. One of those customers has already bought 6 engines from me. These guys chose the larger, more expensive engines and two of them insisted on those engines even against my recommendation of a 2270, that would do what they need andd then some. Of course none of these are going into a 914, I only have two 914 builds on the wait list at the present, both are standard engines and one is for the earliest VIN LE car that has been recorded to date.
Posted by: MecGen Nov 28 2005, 06:56 PM
Wow
Look what happens when I post
Ralph opened a door to questions which a lot of member seem to have. The Raby Garage motors (including pricing) was always avoided in posts. I have read other posts that someone asks for a price (general inquiry in the garage) and got nothing but 
This I suspect this is why the thred has gotten attention. Inquiring minds want to know.
The final price has no bearing on my opinion, as I charge an hourly rate and understand. but it really seems we, at the 914 club, are a very small part of your business, but yet, in your reply post, you still bring up the 14/15 factor, rub salt in the wounds. And your reply still sounded like a infomercial. If the 914 owner are such deadbeats...why fucking bother ?
Later
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 28 2005, 07:03 PM
Burp...
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 28 2005, 07:05 PM
what i'm still wondering is why Jake doesnt build a more standarized engine, one with the updates but without custom working....
why does everything have to have years of R&D work....
the 914 engine is very well designed IMHO....not too much goes wrong when properly maintained....and people are still on the original set of everythings.
I do like the idea of updated components...i think its *KEY* that this engine starts drifting into more power and more durability....but i dont have any reason why that should cost 11k.....
and i dont think its right to trash the 914 community for a minority of your problems.
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 07:07 PM
Thats the reason why I stated last time this happened that I was stopping 914 engine development/ building, but I was bombarded with people asking me NOT to do that.... It is a very small part of what I do, but I figure that one day it may get better- who knows..
As far as avoiding prices, as you have seen here the options can double the price of the engine pretty easily if the customer goes wild... And every time I post a price i6t comes back to bite me in the sass- thats why I don't do it, because it varies so much with the custom nature of the engines.
Tonight I am working on the 914 engine build price sheet. Since this is hot on my mind and has totally ruined my productivity today I figure I may as well benefit from it somehow. I am making prices for 4 engines and thats it- thats all that will be available and they are not available with more options than they are priced with. Hopefully this will end all the questions and complaining and make things easier for me and give me more time to work on custom engines for other applications with less admin headaches..
I will post it here later tonight.
Five years ago is when I started doing all the development work and getting away from the standardized builds. I did this to REDUCE the amount of engines I built to make each of them better. Then I gave the engines 1/2 as much bench time as I do now as well. The prices I am making up as we speak will be for an engine equal to that without the development work and I will utilize those more developed parts for the other builds. The engines I will offer are still not cheap, but will definately be easierfor me to dictate price wise. This era of engines I will be replicating is just about the same time frame that flatvw'e engine was built and it performs great. They will not have the 100K lifespan that a current 2270 has, but not many guys drive their cars that much these days.
I am one that thinks nothing is ever good enough- looks like I'll eep marching on with my engines in other fields of use as fully developed units and will take a step backward to hopefully keep the 914 world satisfied a bit. If this doesn't work i don't know what else I can do but drop the 914 from my line up and only sell kits and parts.
Posted by: Flat VW Nov 28 2005, 07:10 PM
| QUOTE (Headrage @ Nov 28 2005, 03:08 PM) |
| My first job in 1973 was working at a KFC. It was all pressure cooked. |
"I have an extensive collection of nametags and hairnets"----Wayne Cambell
J
Posted by: Hammy Nov 28 2005, 07:10 PM
Jake do you mean you'll only be offering 2270 kits and up?
Posted by: scotty b Nov 28 2005, 07:11 PM
I had a guy make a snide comment one time about me charging him $35.00/hr for metal werk which is actually pretty low. My response was, well then you go buy a 1500.00 welder, 2000.00 werth of body tools, build a garage and do it yourself. Couple weeks later he came by while I was MAKING his rocker panels and said "I guess that's what you meant huh?" You pay for the knowledge and tools. Go bitch to your doctor or laywer or accountant next time they hand you a bill. Oh yeah, they deserve it because they are a "professional" and we're just mechanics and bodymen right? Want the toys,? you gotta PAY to PLAY. This thread has run it's course. Go back and re-read the original post and if you do so OBJECTIVLY you will see that what Jake states is understood in the original post as far as the additional option costs. Knowledge cots whether it's from a book or from research. Why the hell do you think medications are so expensive?? Sure some fat cat is making it big but it takes a tremendous amount of money to get the drug's "perfected" if they ever are. Rant over.
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 07:21 PM
I expended over 40K last year in testing and developments....... That was VERY easy to do. This year my R&D budget was depleted before September arrived. That was MY money- not share holders and I didn't borrow it from a bank. 2K extra was given to the lifter fund by guys here and other fourums just so we could finish the lifter testing since we spent 12K and still had no answer, but then ran out of funds.....
I am already working on 2006's R&D funds for the Turbo work and its not even December yet..
That money doesn't grow on trees and I'll be damned if I'll do all that test work and not employ those changes and parts on the engines that deserve it..
Posted by: MecGen Nov 28 2005, 07:40 PM
I have to admit
you guys are great Politicians.
Sorry Scotty...your rant has no foundation to stand on. The plain fact of the matter is at 35 an hour, you can't pay a rent, tools, and equipement. Are you a Body shop?
35 and hour insults everybody in the Automotive trade.
Nuff said
Posted by: ws91420 Nov 28 2005, 07:45 PM
Not questioning what you do to engines but dont you offer a Type IV to your bug customers? If you do how is any different from one you would offer to the 914 community beside how the cooling is set up? I would love to have a better, faster stronger motor in my teener but I guess I will have to wait until price is no object to get it. Which may be a while and you may be totally pissed at the 914 community by then.
Posted by: lotus_65 Nov 28 2005, 07:45 PM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 28 2005, 05:40 PM) |
| I always thought Coke had some clove in it. J |
i think clove flavor is used in dr. pepper, mr. pibb et al.
...great with popcorn!
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Nov 28 2005, 07:54 PM
Tried to stay on the popcorn, but can't resist.
IF the initial ball park estimate was "about $11K" with all the "bells and whistles" and the final price, including b&w's, was $19.5K, the deposit and core engine should be refunded.
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 08:01 PM
| QUOTE (ws91420 @ Nov 28 2005, 05:45 PM) |
| Not questioning what you do to engines but dont you offer a Type IV to your bug customers? If you do how is any different from one you would offer to the 914 community beside how the cooling is set up? I would love to have a better, faster stronger motor in my teener but I guess I will have to wait until price is no object to get it. Which may be a while and you may be totally pissed at the 914 community by then. |
Yes, the majority of my customers are Beetle and 356 converts... Those engines are drastically different on the inside as far as design goes. The average beetle owner wants fast 0-60 times but an engine that can sustain 80+ MPH all day long.... A beetle weighs about 600 pounds less than a 914 and only has a 4 speed gearbox.. Now an engine specifically prepared for that car should be and IS designed differently than one for the heavier 914 with taller gearing and more times than not uses the stock cooling system which is inefficient in comparison to the DTM cooled upright engine.
This is the reason why I have 914 specific combinations that are designed only for 914s. A bit of compromise is made with these to afford the use of heater boxes and stock cooling systems.
Basically an engine that performs great in a beetle might not do worth a damn in a 914, you can ask Tom Perso, ( a member here) about the differences he experienced when pulling the engine from his bug and slapping it into a 914...
A purpose built engine is always superior, especially when gearing and tire sizes are included into the equation...
Posted by: Mueller Nov 28 2005, 08:01 PM
| QUOTE (Rockaria @ Nov 28 2005, 05:02 PM) |
| What blows my mind is thinking... "$19,000 for an engine... AND I have to supply the core..." Wow... That just strikes me as wild... Just think of the cool engines I could get and install for my 914 that will do equal power for half that cost... Sure it wont be a TIV, but man... |
try having a shop build a Porsche 6 and do the same thing with options and upgrades.....it'll start adding up pretty darn fast...the fuel injection alone with cost $1000 more than Jakes quoted price for an equally setup assembly.....
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 28 2005, 08:59 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 28 2005, 04:22 PM) |
| On second thought if I give him back the 200 bucks and the core he would not have a leg to stand on.... or a gripe in the world with me.....Hmmmn |
I would do this Jake just for PR and to let the air out of this BS thats going on.
I build $100k remodels to 2 million dollar homes these days and I make sure the plans and specs are very clear before the contract is signed. The owners also know that NOTHING is changed unless its in writing and signed. Still they want more for nothing....human nature I supposed. 'course there was that time the Dean of the UW tried to fire me on the spot cuz I wouldn't do additional work on his say so.
"you can't please all the people all the time"
Sounds like standard 914 motors are the way to go for now.
Oh btw, who wants a stock motor anyway! These days 95hp isn't enough nor that crappy cam.
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 09:18 PM
I am working on the standardized list as we speak.. Some people won't like the lack of options, but its the only way to make this process "cut and dry" and remove the variables...
I dug into my files from 2000 and got my old proposals out and opened up their dyno graphs...
I'll have them posted before I go to bed tonight..
Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 28 2005, 09:18 PM
I think one of the things that often gets missed (I did the same thing) is that Jake's basic engine price includes a set of new carbs.
Most of us expect an engine to still need stuff attached to it once it is delivered but a RAT engine already has everything needed for it to run after installation except maybe the exhaust system. (that's my job )
I think that the cost of the EFI upgrade is quite steep but I have never done any research on my own so I don't have a real basis for that opinion.
If I were planning a RAT 2270 engine for my street 914 I would go with the Nickies and skip the DTM. The DTM looks great in a rear engine car but I don't like the "upright" look in a 914 engine bay. I would probably skip the Performance Coatings but I would get the Ion Nitrided Crankshaft and Full Flow Oiling.
A couple of other observations: IMO the $200 deposit is not really an engine deposit but is for the privilege (that's right) of waiting in line. As such I can see a justification for it being non-refundable. On the other hand the engine core should be returned if no contract agreement is reached. The core engine is the property of the prospective customer.
In this case there was never a contract. There was no meeting of the minds. A signed proposal is the only way to establish the "meeting of the minds". Therefore the core engine should be returned. To keep it is nothing less than spiteful and would not stand up in a court of law IMHO unless there was signed paper to the contrary.
Just my $.02
Chris Foley
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 09:25 PM
The price of the EFI is a tad steeper than if someone purchased all the items to do the install themselves... BUT I TUNE the system for them as part of that cost.. Chris, you have set an engine up on my dyno and you kopw whats involved with that- now add about 200% more wires and etc and thats what one experiences with testing an EFI equipped engine, not to mention the additional time to MAP the engine's RPM fuel values (from 500 RPM to redline in 250 RPM increments) and each MP value across the entire range, which is much harder than RPM fuel and don't forget the cold start enrichment which requires the engine to cool down fully between eachn setting can be verified- this is why it takes at least double the time to correctly dyno tune an EFI equipped engine, hence the additional cost...
And yes, the engine included a ONE THOUSAND DOLLAR set of brand new Weber carbs- which you are lucky to even find these days..
Posted by: Thomas J Bliznik Nov 28 2005, 09:30 PM
Wow, came back tonight and this thing has leggs.
I am really learning a lot on this thread now that the flames are over.
Chris Foley's suggestion for an engine selection makes lots of sense. Keep it coming guys.
Tom
Posted by: SLITS Nov 28 2005, 09:32 PM
...:insertfanfaresmiley: We have a winner
The "onion thread" only got 84 replies and 2600 views... ![shocked[1].gif](http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/shocked[1].gif)
back to the
Posted by: Air_Cooled_Nut Nov 28 2005, 09:33 PM
I think standard kits/engines is a good idea. Easier for the builder, easy to give pricing on. You can ALWAYS give an estimated price and note right after it "call for exact quote" or "price" or however you want to word it. It's helpful for the customer's budgeting process to have at least an idea of what the costs are gonna be. Again, that contract thang comes up which would have the final costs.
Some options would be a good thing. Suppose they already have carbs and/or tin and just need the engine? If the lifters are a weak point then the ceramics could be an additional option. Nothing extensive but allow for some pre-priced customization. If I were to buy a motor (at this current time) it would be for a stock motor that I would dress myself, including the stock FI. I just need someone knowledgable to build the motor (internals, basically) so it's solid and reliable, I can dress it and I certainly don't want carbs (I hate carbs, even on my big T3 engine).
Food for thought.
Oh, and deposits should be refundable or go towards the cost of the engine. But yeah, 6 month wait is about as long as it should be.
Okay, now I'm done.
Posted by: dmenche914 Nov 28 2005, 09:47 PM
Did the buyer just shoot himself in the foot again??? This is getting more silly, ecspecially after one hears jakes side. Buyer should stop complaining. Without a written contract there is not much you can do. To Jake maybe you should just give the squeeky wheel some oil, I like your thinking , the $200 may not be worth this kind of grief and publicity, but them again it is kind of like paying off blackmail at this point right? Cringe at the thought.
Posted by: Porsche Rescue Nov 28 2005, 10:02 PM
Aren't we talking $200 and a 2.0 core engine?
Posted by: ppickerell Nov 28 2005, 10:45 PM
| QUOTE (LvSteveH @ Nov 28 2005, 03:52 PM) |
| Well, we can’t let you totally off the hook, because you singled out 914 owners as the source of all your misery. I’d challenge you to define what a “typical” 914 owner is and how they are any different from anyone else. You still take it way too personally when someone declines the final proposal 10 months after they got on the list. You were quick to mention how much things have changed in that time, with fuel and parts prices. Well, life changes too, and at a much faster rate than anything else. You have capitalized on the fact that your personality allows you to focus on something and do it well. You can control virtually every aspect of the process….with exception of the customer. A customer is nothing like a crankshaft or procedure that can be rationally ordered and processed. The way you see it, the customer is just waiting in line to be processed, and that is a model for failure. Keep doing what you do well, but you need to revise your process so that you can accommodate the inevitable challenges that will come your way. You mentioned that when someone declines a proposal it throws off your schedule for the whole year. The problem is that you obviously built a schedule with the anticipation of 100% acceptance of your proposals. You could build a business model that expects a 90% acceptance rate, but you would be better off just accepting the fact that some of your time is going to be spent on motors that never see the light of day. Now, if you can just come up with a nice, solid 150hp 2270 with nickies and ceramic lifters that can be bought for $8000, I think you’d be surprised at how many people take you up on it. You wouldn’t need exotic head work or other state of the art features to make 150hp that will run 100k miles. As the value of these cars increases, $8000 for a nice street motor is going to become increasingly attractive. Keep up the good work. People can say a lot of things about Jake Raby, but boring and indifferent are not among them. |
Steve,
You hit the nail on the head for me. I have been on the sidelines lamenting my non-raby choice which has turned out terribly and had I had a clearcut 8K raby choice the decision would have been easy.
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 10:56 PM
There is no way that I can let any engine with ceramic lifters and Nickies go for 8K- no way on the planet... Not even a 2056!
Right off the bat you are talking 3K for just two components.... Thats not counting any labor.
I will never, ever offer a longblock engine.. I'll close the doors before I will allow my reputation to be at the mercy of the tuner/installer of the carbs/ignition.....
I have never aimed toward outfitting the most cars with engines and never will. Creating standard engines is only being done to simplify things. The cost will be cheaper than it has for the last 3 years, but this does not mean i will take on more work if I get dozens of guys wanting the engines.. I will only take on what I can handle and what will keep the wait list in check, since thats why I am doing this as a more standardized process in the first place.
Posted by: ppickerell Nov 28 2005, 11:01 PM
How many fucktard postings about mittelmotors viabitlity do we have to endure before we realize that there is a market for t4 "hero" standard package at 8K? There must be 20-30 immediate orders for t4 standard rat packages with no surpises from this board alone. Are the 356 and VW guys that well off that they don't ask the questions? I am uncomfortable being lumped together with nebulous and clueless 914 owners characterized as nimwits.
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 11:10 PM
Honestly with the conversion engines price is really hardly ever an issue..... Thats probably because the 356 guys are used to a STOCK engine costing 8K just to rebuild to get less than 90 HP from ... and the fact that the beetle guys have no option other than a suby to get reliable performance.... Thats why I am not standardizing those guys prices or limiting what I will do for them, because they have a huge desire for a custom engine and will pay for my efforts with pretty much no questions asked..
20-30 orders would fill my boards for another year+... I have only completed 24 engines this year since January and it looks like I won't even break 27 before years end... Doing this right takes time, else you end up like the guys that have a shitty rep because their product sucks...
I'd rather be hated for having outrageous prices but still have a quality engine to put my name on... Else I'd move my shop south of the border and let the sweat roll!!!
Posted by: rick 918-S Nov 28 2005, 11:17 PM
| QUOTE (ppickerell @ Nov 28 2005, 09:01 PM) |
| How many fucktard postings about mittelmotors viabitlity do we have to endure before we realize that there is a market for t4 "hero" standard package at 8K? There must be 20-30 immediate orders for t4 standard rat packages with no surpises from this board alone. Are the 356 and VW guys that well off that they don't ask the questions? I am uncomfortable being lumped together with nebulous and clueless 914 owners characterized as nimwits. |
You can't come here and call people names as a group, threaten to take your ball and go home, then when the guy you put in 
stocks and stoned in public exposes you, you come out all nicey nice. Oh woe is me.. 
I'd go search down your post but you deleted it. go build a motor or something. And give the guy back his property shipping included. That may help make things right.
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 28 2005, 11:25 PM
shoot, I thought you were trying to match GEX's engine rebuild numbers for the year.....
Posted by: J P Stein Nov 28 2005, 11:43 PM
OK, I can't take anymore popcorn.
This thread has turned into another of Jake's self promotions.
Well done, Jake.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 28 2005, 11:47 PM
| QUOTE (J P Stein @ Nov 28 2005, 10:43 PM) |
| OK, I can't take anymore popcorn. |
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 28 2005, 11:50 PM
Thanks JP... Its a true talent to take a slam dunk thread and turn it around like I was able to! hell, I'm proud of myself on this one!!!!
LOL
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 28 2005, 11:55 PM
and you aren't even 50 yrs old yet!
Posted by: Lou W Nov 29 2005, 12:00 AM
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 12:13 AM
OK.. Crunching the nu,mbers finally got to me.. Its been a bitch of a long day and I'm crashing early...
I have the standardized prices about 1/2 way finished and will post them tomorrow evening as I have a dyno session that srats at 0730 and will last most of the day...
I have decided on the following engines to offer as standard units:
2270"A" (the original base engine for the current 2270 daily driver)140BHP/150TQ
2270 "C" (The original base engine for the current 2270 performer) 150 BHP/160 TQ
2316 Annihilator- Base engine as developed in 2002 with only standard equipment 165BHP/165 TQ
2374 AutoX special- I dug this one up from 1998- I have not built one for 4 years.... Its a high torque low revver thats simpler to build than most other 82mm stroker engines. It makes 165BHP and about 175 TQ..
Thats the list and I will add the prices and specifics tomorrow as I get time. I have a very good break down of whats included (the best I can and not spill the beans for copy cats to see)
All engines still 100% complete, turn key only lacking exhaust systems.. These standard engines won't be getting a solid days worth of dyno tuning, nor will I spend hours trying to optimize the combo for someone particular environment- these are base engines and are as simple as anything will ever be from my shop.... It will be interesting to see how ths drastic change impacts the "914 situation" here..
Posted by: Jeff Bowlsby Nov 29 2005, 12:49 AM
I think even thats too complicated, the engines appear to be very similar. How about just 2 engines only:
Guys who want bone stock engines go else where and they go to Jake for performance.
The 2270 A or C and the 2374 Annihilator only.
There is enough difference to make them reasonable choices, where the other two are so close in performance. I would think its hard to feel the difference of just 10 HP or 10 ft-lbs.
Hey you could prefab these ready to ship!
Posted by: grantsfo Nov 29 2005, 12:56 AM
All the money and business stuff aside.
You kept your cool and I respect you for that.
I'll never spend that kind of money for *ANY* motor.
Then again, there are prospective clients of mine who won't *EVER* pay what I ask for my tile work either.
You have enough work to get you by... So do I.
KT
To put things in perspective I'm buying a completely new 2006 Mazda MX-5 for my wife for close to the cost of the 2270cc Type 4 motor in question. Think about the R&D, assembly costs, product liability costs, advertising costs, transportation expenses, dealer network costs, etc in that entire new Mazda. And the MX-5 comes with a 48 month 50,000 warranty!
Makes a $20K Jaby 2270cc with wiz bang fuel injection seem sorta crazy given that any 914 with this 2270cc engine wont be worth a 1/3 the cost of the motor once its installed. We already saw that with the AZ car. I just think there is a more efficient and cost effective way to produce a quality performance T4. Maybe Jake will find a way to reduce his motor costs with volume? We can always hope!
Posted by: Racer Chris Nov 29 2005, 06:18 AM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 28 2005, 11:56 PM) |
| There is no way that I can let any engine with ceramic lifters and Nickies go for 8K- no way on the planet... Not even a 2056! |
I assembled a 2056 engine for a club member this year.
No disassembly, crankcase and crankshaft already prepped.
If the customer had added Nickies the price would have been around 8K without any dyno time or "blueprinting". The only special treatment it got was ceramic lifters (at the old price).
| QUOTE |
| I would think its hard to feel the difference of just 10 HP or 10 ft-lbs. |
| QUOTE |
| To put things in perspective I'm buying a new Miata |
Posted by: i love porsche Nov 29 2005, 06:30 AM
jake, still going to make the 2056 kit?
thats on my list for the next year and a half
Posted by: blitZ Nov 29 2005, 07:18 AM
| QUOTE (i love porsche @ Nov 29 2005, 04:30 AM) |
| jake, still going to make the 2056 kit? thats on my list for the next year and a half |
I think the standard pricing is for custom engines, hopefully the kits continue the same. To me personally (and financially), the kit is the most practical way to obtain a Raby engine.
Posted by: heavydriver Nov 29 2005, 08:20 AM
I guess 5 pages was a low ball estimate as well.....
Posted by: Vacca Rabite Nov 29 2005, 08:37 AM
| QUOTE (heavydriver @ Nov 29 2005, 09:20 AM) |
| I guess 5 pages was a low ball estimate as well..... |
Up your settings.
I'm not even past page 2 yet.
Zach
Posted by: DNHunt Nov 29 2005, 08:38 AM
Ok, I just can't stay out of this.
I signed one of Jake's contracts for a kit. I thought it covered things very well. It was certainly tidy and defined resposibilty on both of our parts.
Now, Jake never stuck to the terms of it. It clearly stated that if the engine failed it was 100% the builder's (that was me) responsibilty. Well, my engine failed twice and Jake has eaten almost all of the costs associated with the failures. He could have cut me loose or charged me for replacement parts and he would have been within the terms of the contract. He didn't do that. WHAT'S THAT WORTH GUYS?
It's cetainly easy to focus on the upfront cost. Hell, my eyes got big when I saw $19,000. But, there may be more to it than dollars spent.
We've chosen a quirky little car that has too small of a following to support much aftermarket. As a result, we have to use good used parts, or fab stuff or pay for one off new in some cases. It's too bad but it's the cost of this little hobby. Jake has chosen a niche at the top of the money chain. His stuff is well made and he stands behind it and he should charge whatever people will pay.
Dave
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 08:53 AM
Thanks Dave....
I didn't follow the parameters set forth by the proposal when you had those failures because you are one hell of a guy.. You have attention to detail that with a tad more experienece with a wrench would parallel my own, no doubt. You didn't cry, you didn't whine and you didn't say "I spent X amount of dollars and this damn piece of junk failed"... Words like that will send an email straight to my trash bin and I won't read it any further. I only enforce the rules when people break my rules, start yelling and get out of control.. Thats only happened twice in the last 10 years.
As far as the standardized engines go- They do not count engine kits.. Those are already standardized, also please understand that a "Type 4 Store" kit is NOT a RABY ENGINE! The engine builder was the purchaser of the kit, not me and not Brent... A Raby engine has my serial number on it and was 100% prepped and assembled here. Engine kits and parts are not in the same classification.. Both divisions of my company are very separate here, on purpose.
Blitz, The standard pricing will be for standard base engines. Custom engines are no longer being offered for 914 applications- If the gloves I offer don't fit, or still cost too much you'll be stuck with some kind of conversion. The highest performance engine I will offer will now be 170 HP.
I will post the standardized pricing and etc later- its back to the dyno for me now..
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 29 2005, 08:55 AM
or...you can spend $1.9k on a sweetheart of an engine, spend another $137 to get it back home, $350 to freshen up the heads, $125.28 for rings and a gasket kit (and that's with a discount, thanks), clutch package-another $250 or so (can't remember off hand), and you're at $2762.28. another $? for misc machine work, what ever the market will bear for solving the cam and lifter issue and don't forget bearings. the only save is that i have my own carbs and mallory, but i'll mentally add the rebuild kits for them(carbs). close to $2.8k invested for a heap of loose parts, not done spending, and that doesn't include fuel to drive all over western washington. pain, pain, pain. a simple 2056, opened up cast cyls, a $6k or so engine that i can "put my carbs on and install", looks like a bargan. oh yea, can't forget the money i owe a friend for the 2.0 crank i have and will prob need. oh oh, don't forget the oil pump and cam gears. shit. fuck. i really needed this mental excersize first thing this am. forgot flywheel machining...
k
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 29 2005, 09:40 AM
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 09:58 AM
I think he is finally gone now... All his stuff is off the samba...
Kevin, pay for the shipping and I'll send you a 2 liter crank thats virgin and very nice.. 
Posted by: rhodyguy Nov 29 2005, 10:07 AM
perhaps i should just send you $200 and the crap thrown in a box. JUST KIDDING!!. the crank i have (dh's) had std/std bearings on it. so, fingers crossed, so hopefully it will speck out. nothing will happen with my engine until after the first of the year. money and tax glitch. thanks jake. i'll wait for now, but like an elephant, i won't forget.
re the other guy. sometime ago another victim surfaced at the feedback section at the samba. perhaps everett barnes done give you know who da boot.
k
Posted by: Flat VW Nov 29 2005, 11:16 AM
| QUOTE (grantsfo @ Nov 28 2005, 10:56 PM) | ||
To put things in perspective I'm buying a new Miata for my wife that has a 170 hp 2.0 for close to the cost of the 2270cc Type 4 in question. Think about the R&D, assembly costs, product liability costs, advertising costs, transportation expenses, dealer network costs, etc in that entire car. And the Miata comes with a 48 month 50,000 warranty! What is the warranty on a MASSIVE 4? Makes a $20K Jaby 2270cc with wiz bang fuel injection seem sorta crazy given that any 914 that will gets the engine wont be worth the cost of the motor once its installed. We already saw that with the AZ car. I just think there is a more efficient and cost effective way to produce a quality performance T4. Problem is that the market doesnt support the volume required to achieve the lower cost production. I still want to know where the bodies are hidden. |
Wanna race for pink slips?
Jerome, AZ to Prescott Valley, AZ (an old stagecoach trail, TWYSTY).
I could then sell off the ricer for maintence parts for my car.
John
P.S. Could you buy her a white one?
I always prefer white rice.
P.P.S. On second thought, that air conditioning might be nice in July though....
Posted by: MW 914 Nov 29 2005, 11:24 AM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 29 2005, 09:16 AM) |
| Wanna race for pink slips? Jerome, AZ to Prescott Valley, AZ (an old stagecoach trail, TWYSTY). I could then sell off the ricer for maintence parts for my car. John P.S. Could you buy her a white one? I always prefer white rice. P.S.S. On second thought, that air conditioning might be nice in July though.... |
That is funny
John! Funny ......Hope to see you at the Toys for Tots breakfast!
Posted by: Flat VW Nov 29 2005, 11:34 AM
| QUOTE (MW 914 @ Nov 29 2005, 09:24 AM) | ||
That is funny John! Funny ......Hope to see you at the Toys for Tots breakfast! |
Thank you, Thank you very much, (in my best Elvis voice complete with lip curl, [fat Elvis].
John
P.S. As Mike always says: "Please remember to tip your server."
Posted by: BIGKAT_83 Nov 29 2005, 01:29 PM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 29 2005, 01:16 PM) |
| .[/QUOTE] Wanna race for pink slips? Jerome, AZ to Prescott Valley, AZ (an old stagecoach trail, TWYSTY). I could then sell off the ricer for maintence parts for my car. John P.S. Could you buy her a white one? I always prefer white rice. P.S.S. On second thought, that air conditioning might be nice in July though.... |
Is that offer for any Miata???
Might be able to arrange something.
Bob
Posted by: SLITS Nov 29 2005, 02:14 PM
Going for 10................no I won't change my settings.....I'm at peace with the universe this way.
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 29 2005, 02:15 PM
me and the crazy neighbor chillin' and waitin' for the page to turn....
b
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 29 2005, 02:18 PM
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 02:37 PM
Okay... I finally finished it! I have made it as simple as I can! Here are TWO engine possibilities as standard units for 914 applications. Both are engines I have uesd as base engines for years to complete their custom derivatives and both have been assembled dozens of times, thoroughly tested and I know their tuning specs by heart- this is the ONLY way I was able to do these so standardized...... I'm not happy about making a turn back to the dark side and offering something that doesn't have all the best included, but I figure it may be time for something here to be easier and faster for a change since I forgot what thats like!
Now I will say that if you think these prices are too much- please keep your soup cooler shut! If you think that some rice burning engine can be done cheaper- you are right, but you can also keep your sewer closed and go fill the tank with rice and drive away... If you think you can install a cast iron slug in the car that came from Detroit cheaper- You are right as well, but you can also and of course if you think the Porsche six cylinder is magical and can be done cheaper than this, well go start another thread to argue that point- oh, and while you are in the process!!!These engines are offered for those who still appreciate the simplicity of the TIV and want to bolt an engine in their car that it came with, instead of using a torch, sawzall and welder to do the job...... Now to the serious things since I have effectively ruffled all the feathers of the die hard converts that will hate it when they get passed by this regular old TIV engine!!!
This is simple- You only have two choices- the rest are now all NLA, or available in engine kit form only. No more custom engines, and no options will be added that are not listed specifically.. I won't even make an exception for the Virgin Mary, or God himself!
All engines available as “Turn key” complete units- No long block assemblies available. My work is worthless unless I can tune it as it will be run in your car. All prices based on customer providing complete 2 liter core. The only price increase over the stated prices will be for cracked cases, or cases that require replacement, of for heads that are severely cracked, or that have been damaged by sloppy rebuilds. Those charges will not exceed 750.00, even in the worst case scenario.
All engines WILL BE built from the customer’s core that was sent to us. We have no “core bank” as those most of the time end up giving the customer someone else’s left over’s, that are not as good as their own. I build your engine from your core, right down to the sheet metal and case- any case is acceptable, from 1.7- 2.0, no matter the year. Core charge for customers that do not have a core is 1,000.00
All engines also come with powder coated engine tin, unless the customer opts for the 914 DTM.
So here it is.. Its what you all wanted - The first standardized engines I have offered since October of 2,000. Do not think that this engine is mass produced, or less than any other engine I have ever offered. What I have done is standardized the combination and assembly and even the options so 914 owners will know what my possibility engine cost. This particular engine is the exacting what Flat VW has in his 914, the original owner of that car, Brian Miller, loved the engine more so than driving his boxster! It’s reliable and needs no more maintenance than a stock engine and maintenance intervals are still the same as stock as well.
I will not be accepting orders for this engine until Mid January when my schedule is down to less than a 5 month wait.
The prices listed are the absolute least that they will ever be. I will retain these prices through March15th 2006 and then reassess the costs and update as necessary.
2056cc- NLA - Two versions available as engine kits (one for stock FI and one for programmable FI/ carbs)
2270cc “C” (earlier version of the “2270 Performer” prior to further development)
96X78.4mm
150BHP@ 6,000 RPM
160 lb/ft TQ @ 3,500 RPM
Engine redline @ 7,000 RPM
Fuel requirement- 91 octane
Induction- priced with new 44mm IDF carbs. Not compatible with Stock EFI. Programmable fuel injection, optional for this engine, based on stock plenum/runners or individual runner T/Bs for engines using the 914 DTM. Individual runners not available for this engine without the 914 DTM.
Note about carbs- If the customer has their own carbs, they will not be utilized- sell them on Ebay and I’ll include brand new ones! Carbs can create a variable in the pricing and that’s not a possibility. I also do not fancy used, old carbs that give me a fit on the dyno and need repairs. The engine is priced with New Webers and matching linkage.
Exhaust- Not included, works well with heater boxes and a Bursch or Triad and also with Kerry Hunter header or the Tangerine Racing header.
Cooling system- Stock 914 system included in base price- 914 DTM optional. Stock tins all powdercoated gloss black as standard equipment and all fasteners upgraded to stainless steel to prevent corrosion.
Ignition- priced with Mallory Uni-lite as standard equipment
Crankshaft- RAT 2036
Conn. Rods- Rat 3032 H Beam with TI small end
Camshaft and lifters- RAT 9502 cam with matching CONVENTIONAL lifters. Composite lifters are an option.
Flywheel- Customers unit resurfaced and balanced- Lightening optional
Pressure plate and clutch- New Sachs units. These must be included to facilitate proper and thoroughly indexed engine balancing. Keep in mind that this is NOT cheap and is normally never included in turnkey engine packages.
Cylinders and pistons- RAT 6312 kit with bored cylinders and KB pistons in 96mm. NICKIES NOT AN OPTION FOR THIS ENGINE
Cylinder heads- This can be done one of two ways. The price of the engine is not impacted by the route that is chosen.
If customer has 2.0 914 core with 2 Liter heads
- The 2.0 heads will be absolutely rebuilt and ported (stage1 street) to our specs. Spark plug holes will be welded to receive 12mm spark plugs if any chambers are found to be cracked. Heads upgraded to dual valve springs with our SI valve upgrade. Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install- 2.0 914 heads are the only heads we rebuild and if they were available new ewe would not even rebuild them.
If customer has a 1.7/ 1.8 engine with 1.7/1.8 heads
- New cylinder head castings will be utilized and taken to our Rat 7436 combination. These heads have the same flow characteristics as the 2.0 cylinder heads, but feature the standard 1.7/1.8 spark plug location, so the customer’s sheet metal will still be correct. These heads feature similar performance to an engine with the 2.0 914 OEM castings - 5% on average due to the spark plug location and chamber differences. These heads are fully ported and feature all upgraded seats, valves, dual springs and etc as the 2.0 casting heads. We basically rebuild a brand new head and then Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install. These heads being brand new are a huge plus for reliability/longevity and are worth the slight power loss if you have a 1.7/1.8 core engine. I do not rebuild any heads other than the 2.0 heads because they are so rare and NLA new.
The price of the engine will not be impacted by which route you go- This is because the rebuilt heads take the same amount of labor to rebuild as the new heads cost us to purchase- This further simplifies pricing as well.
Valve train- Manton chromoly pushrods, 1.7 rockers modified for REAL 911 adjusters, heavy duty 8mm rocker studs and solid rocker spacers are standard equipment as well. This makes for a valve train that is “over built” for this engine, and that’s a VERY good thing… and it’s a standard here.
Labor/ processes-
-Standard stroker assembly= Rat engine manual not included nor available, engine spec sheet included only. Engine receives street level assembly tolerances only.(4,000 Labor value)
- Balancing= Intermediate balance included .05 Oz.In. Tolerance. (175.00 VALUE) (Race balance not available)
- Dyno tuning= Standard dyno session only (500.00 Value). A total of 4 hours allotted for complete process for carbureted engines. This will include a minimum of one power pull and a dyno graph will be supplied with the engine. (EFI equipped engines have their extra dyno time added into the cost of the EFI arrangement)
Price of standard engine, as specified above= 9,850.00 (1K of that is carbs alone)
Optional items- These prices are UPGRADES meaning the cost is on top of the proposed prices.
Ceramic lifters+ 600.00
Lightened flywheel+ 125.00
914 DTM+ 1250.00
Programmable EFI+ 2,800 (full kit, all you buy is hoses and fittings to install and price includes dyno tuning)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------end of engine choice 1
2316cc “B mod”
96X80mm
170BHP@ 6,500 RPM
170 lb/ft TQ @ 4,000 RPM
Engine redline @ 7,300 RPM
Fuel requirement- 91 octane
Induction- priced with new 44mm IDF carbs. Not compatible with Stock EFI. Programmable fuel injection, optional for this engine, based on stock plenum/runners or individual runner T/Bs for engines using the 914 DTM. Individual runners not available for this engine without the 914 DTM.
Note about carbs- If the customer has their own carbs, they will not be utilized- sell them on Ebay and I’ll include brand new ones! Carbs can create a variable in the pricing and that’s not a possibility. I also do not fancy used, old carbs that give me a fit on the dyno and need repairs. The engine is priced with New Webers and matching linkage.
Exhaust- Not included, HEATER BOXES NOT COMPATIBLE Kerry Hunter header or the Tangerine Racing header required. Euro race header is not adequate for this engine, nor is the triad or Bursch
Cooling system- Stock 914 system included in base price- 914 DTM optional. Stock tins all powdercoated gloss black as standard equipment and all fasteners upgraded to stainless steel to prevent corrosion.
Ignition- priced with Mallory Uni-lite as standard equipment
Crankshaft- RAT 2040
Conn. Rods- Rat 3038 H Beam with TI small end
Camshaft and lifters- RAT 9520 cam with matching CONVENTIONAL lifters. Composite lifters are an option.
Flywheel- Customers unit resurfaced and balanced- Lightening optional
Pressure plate and clutch- New Sachs pressure plate with Gold series 6 puck clutch disc to hold the added power from this beastly engine. These must be included to facilitate proper and thoroughly indexed engine balancing. Keep in mind that this is NOT cheap and is normally never included in turnkey engine packages.
Cylinders and pistons- RAT 6312 kit with bored cylinders and KB pistons in 96mm. NICKIES NOT AN OPTION FOR THIS ENGINE. Forged JE pistons optional for engines that see more track time than street time.
Cylinder heads- This can be done one of two ways. The price of the engine is not impacted by the route that is chosen.
If customer has 2.0 914 core with 2 Liter heads
- The 2.0 heads will be absolutely rebuilt and ported (stage2 street) to our specs. Spark plug holes will be welded to receive 12mm spark plugs if any chambers are found to be cracked. Heads upgraded to dual valve springs with our SI valve upgrade. Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install- 2.0 914 heads are the only heads we rebuild and if they were available new ewe would not even rebuild them.
If customer has a 1.7/ 1.8 engine with 1.7/1.8 heads
- New cylinder head castings will be utilized and taken to our Rat 7442 combination. These heads have the same flow characteristics as the 2.0 cylinder heads, but feature the standard 1.7/1.8 spark plug location, so the customer’s sheet metal will still be correct. These heads feature similar performance to an engine with the 2.0 914 OEM castings - 5% on average due to the spark plug location and chamber differences. These heads are fully ported and feature all upgraded seats, valves, dual springs and etc as the 2.0 casting heads. We basically rebuild a brand new head and then Chambers balanced to .5cc, valve installed heights will not vary more than .015 and all spring pressures are balanced and springs rated prior to install. These heads being brand new are a huge plus for reliability/longevity and are worth the slight power loss if you have a 1.7/1.8 core engine. I do not rebuild any heads other than the 2.0 heads because they are so rare and NLA new.
The price of the engine will not be impacted by which route you go- This is because the rebuilt heads take the same amount of labor to rebuild as the new heads cost us to purchase- This further simplifies pricing as well.
Valve train- Manton chromoly pushrods, 1.7 rockers modified for REAL 911 adjusters, heavy duty 8mm rocker studs and solid rocker spacers are standard equipment as well. This makes for a valve train that is “over built” for this engine, and that’s a VERY good thing… and it’s a standard here.
Labor/ processes-
-Standard stroker assembly= Rat engine manual not included nor available, engine spec sheet included only. Engine receives street level assembly tolerances only.(4,000 Labor value)
- Balancing= Intermediate balance included .05 Oz.In. Tolerance. (175.00 VALUE) (Race balance not available)
- Dyno tuning= Standard dyno session only (500.00 Value). A total of 4 hours allotted for complete process for carbureted engines. This will include a minimum of one power pull and a dyno graph will be supplied with the engine. (EFI equipped engines have their extra dyno time added into the cost of the EFI arrangement)
Price of standard engine, as specified above= 10,400.00 (1K of that is carbs alone)
Optional items- These prices are UPGRADES meaning the cost is on top of the proposed prices.
JE Forged pistons+ 434.00 (track engines only)
Ceramic lifters+ 600.00
Lightened flywheel+ 125.00
914 DTM+ 1250.00
Programmable EFI+ 2,800 (full kit, all you buy is hoses and fittings to install and price includes dyno tuning)
2563cc- NLA for 914 applications as complete engine-one version available as engine kit
All engine’s in Super hero classification- NLA for 914 applications.
Thats it.... Now who wants to bitch, moan, complain and whine??? I'm ready for your asses today!
Posted by: GOD Nov 29 2005, 02:46 PM
| QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Nov 29 2005, 12:37 PM) |
| ... I won't even make an exception for the Virgin Mary, or God himself!! |
Now Now Jake... Build me a TIV! Use the good stuff! I command it!
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 03:02 PM
Nice try dude... Don't you have better things to do up there????
Posted by: GOD Nov 29 2005, 03:05 PM
Sorry Jake, Mother Nature made me do it. She thought you could use a smile...
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 03:12 PM
she was right... and it worked!
Posted by: LvSteveH Nov 29 2005, 03:15 PM
I know that took a lot of time to put together, and we all appreciate it. Having some standardized options for 914's makes sense, most of the other cars your motors go into are full custom jobs, where as a 914 can be completely stock otherwise.
Posted by: MW 914 Nov 29 2005, 03:18 PM
Regardless of what comes out of this, Jake should get credit for possibly posting the longest reply on this board! That was a pageful!
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 03:19 PM
Yeah.. I pulled my hair out doing that....
Its okay though- because its done for a few months, until we experience the next price increases on parts in March..
The 914 is the only vehicle that I provide engines for that I can do this with, except the VW bus- it has had standardized engine combos since the beginning of time.
Posted by: SirAndy Nov 29 2005, 03:20 PM
alright, are we done yet?
can i now delete the first 185 posts and then move this "thread" (advertisement???) to the "914 Resources, Parts and Products" forum?
Andy
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 03:25 PM
Andy, I just sent you an email asking you to do that!
This was all against my will, you know... These damn guys pressured me into it!
BTW- add 150.00 crating charge for either engine- I forgot that.. Oh and my shipper is a nice gal, she cuts some mean ass deals lately! Coast to coast for less than 350 generally!
Posted by: Bleyseng Nov 29 2005, 04:09 PM
its been entertaining to say the least!
Classic status!!!!!
Oh, who is GOD???
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 04:15 PM
Hell.. 8K+ views in just a few days... am I really that damn popular here?? LOL
God HAS to be andy..... LOL
Posted by: ppickerell Nov 29 2005, 05:10 PM
Everyone knows that God is mikez.
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 05:19 PM
Patrick,
When can we talk about some work???
Posted by: bd1308 Nov 29 2005, 05:33 PM
Jake...
so the kits will still be available??
Posted by: Aaron Cox Nov 29 2005, 05:40 PM
god... LOL.
that was funny
Posted by: Flat VW Nov 29 2005, 05:43 PM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 29 2005, 09:16 AM) | ||||
Wanna race for pink slips? Jerome, AZ to Prescott Valley, AZ (an old stagecoach trail, TWYSTY). I could then sell off the ricer for maintence parts for my car. John P.S. Could you buy her a white one? I always prefer white rice. P.P.S. On second thought, that air conditioning might be nice in July though.... |
Yes, but, it has to have air conditioning!
John
P.S. I have a seen a couple here, just lately, that make the hair on the back of my neck stand up.
One at the trackday event here at Firebird Raceway.
I never got to see it run on the track, but I saw and heard it idling in the paddock (parking lot), it was built!
Cotton pick'in --M's--, I don't like to even type the word....... a teener nemesis
Posted by: Jake Raby Nov 29 2005, 05:49 PM
Kits are not altered at all.. only the complete engines.
Kits are part of my parts store, and its not in any way associated with my engine division, except they are on the same property..
Posted by: scotty b Nov 29 2005, 06:28 PM
| QUOTE (MecGen @ Nov 28 2005, 05:40 PM) |
| I have to admit you guys are great Politicians. Sorry Scotty...your rant has no foundation to stand on. The plain fact of the matter is at 35 an hour, you can't pay a rent, tools, and equipement. Are you a Body shop? 35 and hour insults everybody in the Automotive trade. Nuff said |
If you re-read my post this was a few years ago. I was 25, werking part time out of my parents garage so NO I didn't have any rent, I owned my own tools and I didn't have a business liscence. Yes NOW I do it full time for someone else and YES he charges quite a bit more than $35.00 /hour. Next attempt at insulting me?? I suppose your whole life you charged 60+ / hour and did everything perfecly by the book right?? I did what I had to to get a start and now I restore European race cars for a living so flame on
Y&ou want some pictures of my equipment as proff? or how about pics of the cars I'm currently werking on? What oh What do I need to do to get back in your good graces 
Posted by: Flat VW Nov 29 2005, 06:29 PM
| QUOTE (scotty b @ Nov 29 2005, 04:28 PM) | ||
If you re-read my post this was a few years ago. I was 25, werking part time out of my parents garage so NO I didn't have any rent, I owned my own tools and I didn't have a business liscence. Yes NOW I do it full time for someone else and YES he charges quite a bit more than $35.00 /hour. Next attempt at insulting me?? I suppose your whole life you charged 60+ / hour and did everything perfecly by the book right?? I did what I had to to get a start and now I restore European race cars for a living so flame on Y&ou want some pictures of my equipment as proff? or how about pics of the cars I'm currently werking on? What oh What do I need to do to get back in your good graces |
Posted by: Hammy Nov 29 2005, 06:53 PM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 29 2005, 05:29 PM) | ||||
|
Posted by: crash914 Nov 29 2005, 06:55 PM
all right! I am out of popcorn..
can we all have a group hug and move on?
I know I have almost 9K in my engine...It still needs a different set of heads and exhaust... I should have had a jake.....
damn good prices, great results!
Just buy it. If it is too costly, build your own stock motor for 2K.....
Posted by: scotty b Nov 29 2005, 07:00 PM
| QUOTE (Flat VW @ Nov 29 2005, 04:29 PM) | ||||
|
WHAT you want some o' this too?? Huh?Huh? You lookin at me ?? You must be lookin at me cause I don't see anyone alse here! Where the hell is Alfred? Lemme have a crack at him. Bring on Stromberg while you're at it. Fuch all you mutha fuchin fuch's. Say hello to my little frin
I had a shitty day yesterday and today and now some Canuck Fuch is going to question me when he knows NOTHING about me?? Learn to read THOROUGHLY Frank "$35.00 per hour for metal werk which is actually pretty low" Passed right over that didn't you?? Heres the link back to that page, I wouldn't want you to have to try and figure it out on your own! My post is a little over half way down, maybe you can get someone else to read it for you this time.http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=ST&f=4&t=41890&st=120
BLAME CANADA
(disclaimer) Parts of this rant were in jest, such as the first section directed towards John (flat VW)
I'm not in any way telling Canada to piss off, that too was in jest. Thank you for your support.
Posted by: scottb Nov 29 2005, 07:14 PM
Posted by: degreeoff Dec 5 2005, 03:31 PM
prob allready said....BUT 6er time!!!!!!
Posted by: Jaymann Oct 30 2009, 12:01 PM
19000 for that sweet Jake Raby Motor,that sounds like a real bargin.This thing has all kind of goodies.This guy blew a good deal.If anything,the price is to low, quit being so cheap.This guy Jake is artist ,check youtube out, look for 914 teens with Raby motors .Keep up the good work Jake!! Jaymann
Posted by: Als914 Oct 30 2009, 11:33 PM
When I polled my customres, 3M, Johson and Johson, Cardinal Health, to name a few.... this was their criteria: 1) Customer satisfaction, 2) on time delivery, 3) Quality, 4) Price, IN THAT ORDER.
What they were saying is, tell Me what you are going to do for ME, It will BE on time, it will be what you promised ME and at the price you quoted Me.
Due diligance is key in managing any business. If one can't follow those four simple steps...... get out of the business.
As you have exact measurements on your work, people who work hard for their money have exact expectations.
Ok....a bit harsh but it is reality.
Posted by: underthetire Oct 30 2009, 11:47 PM
Um, newbies, this was from 05. A lot has changed with regards to raby. Its a good read no doubt. I'm not sticking up for either party myself, but I can just feel everyone pucker when this thread was "renewed".
Posted by: Als914 Oct 31 2009, 11:00 AM
Thanks for the heads up. Unfortunately I over looked the '05 date. WHo would have thought it would be reposted? 
I'me out.
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