My v8 conversion thread, With pics, progress, questions ect!! Options

[JB 914]

Hi Andrew,

Good thread and great job on your project.

I don't know what you ended up with on the hose connections, but, the V-8 i just bought had copper elbows and it leaked. I replaced all the hoses from front to back with marine exaust hose.

Good luck

[NoPorsche]

Andyrew,

Get some coolant in that engine NEVER run just water, it boils at 212 and a SBC will get to that temp inside around the cylinders

Levi is incorrect... True, water boils at 212 degrees, BUT that is at atmospheric conditions, not in a pressurized system.

The boiling point of water actually increases approximately 3-degrees for every pound of pressure.

Therefore, with a 16-lb pressure cap, the water will stay liquid until about 260 degrees (far greater than 212)... Your water should not see 260 degrees unless you really have problems.


100% water will provide BETTER cooling efficiency than a 50/50 mix, as the WATER conducts the heat better than coolant. Coolant has a higher boiling point, but water is more efficient. Unless you will exceed that boiling point (~260 degrees) the coolant ineffective.


As Sammy mentioned (page 10), you don't want to run Straight water because of corrosion reasons.

For the BEST cooling, straight water with Water wetter and/or some other additive to prevent corrosion and possibly reduce the surface tension of the water .

For a fresh motor, there is absolutely no problem running straight water for a short time period (a few weeks), as the corrosion/electrolosis effects will probably take weeks before anything happens (at least to be noticible) and months before there are problems...

I like to do this until I am sure the cooling system doesn't have leaks, without having coolant mix leaking all over everything (what a mess that is). I sometimes also pull the motor for detailing etc after an initial breakin. Straight water makes it cleaner and simpler.

Coolant/antifreeze is great for keeping the system from freezing in the winter, as well as providing those anti-corrosion agents... but it is not the best choice for cooling.

Anti-freeze/coolant is also not the best choice if you plan on any type of racing (on a track or AX coarse), because coolant is much more slippery than straight water (or even WW/water mix), and if you overheat and spill on the track, you will ruin the surface for everybody that follows...


I have actually noted average temp drops of 5-10 degrees with only the change of mixtures from 50/50 to straight water, and a few more degrees with Water Wetter added...

I personally have run straight water/Water Wetter for many years in my cars (those stored inside in the Winter) with absolutely no cooling or corrosion problems... Prior to that I also ran straight water during the summer with no noticible issues...

You also want to be sure to run a thermostat. Alot of people take these out, but they are actually better for proper cooling system efifciency.

[NoPorsche]

Another thing I thought of...

175-180 is not overheating. As others here have stated, its completely normal for the water temp to rise after you shut it off... The combustion temps are above 1500 degrees, and the internal metal is also much hotter than the water. The water is around 180 because you have a constant flow of cooled water from the radiator. Once the water pump stops, the coolant can no longer flow throught theradiator to be cooled. BUT the engine is still very hot and continues to radiate that heat into the water, and the water gets hotter. Since the guage is at the engine, you notice that increase... Perfectly normal.

Is the car overheating? Or just pushing water out into the overflow?

Is it only pushing water out when its shut off, or while driving/running?

Have your tried letting it cool, emptying the overflow and driving it again, WITHOUT refilling the water??? And then driving again to see if it still continues to fill the bottle? Many people think that water filling the overflow means overheating, but thats not true, its just the extra pressure bleeding off... And it doesn't mean extra air still in the system (the cycling that renegade mention is different). When the water does begin to boil and turn to steam, it expands and therefore will need extra room (popping the cap). Also remember that while the guage reads "180", there is still variation in the temps. The "180" reading is only at the guage (it should be similar throughout the engine, but will vary.). When you have an air pocket, that is different.

There needs to be room in the system for expansion, and therefore any excess water will bleed off the first few times the temps get up. If you keep "topping off" the system, it will continue to push water out until it has room for the normal expansion. This is a common problem, people keep adding water thinking the system needs it, when the system is actually over full. Not sure on the Posche V8, but generally cars have about 1-inch of space inside the radiator between the water and the radiator cap). Since a typical car will have that extra room "above " the engine, air pockets will not affect the engine.

Do you have the proper radiator cap? Most modern cars use a different cap/system that allows the water to escape when hot, but then its supposed to draw the water back into the system as the engine cools... This cap will not work properly on an older type system...


As for the lack of power. I doubt its the carbs. Not only because you have tried several, but also because even a 2-barrel carb will provide good power. A 2-barrel might lose power at the upper RPM range (like above 5000 RPM in you case), but at lower engine speeds (even up to 5000 RPM or so), the primarys will still make as much power... The secondarys are only NEEDED when the engine actually needs more fuel...

Even a factory 2-barrel setup will still make good power up to a point, and on a smaller engine like a 350, that should be pretty high.

Too much carb opening (like a washer in the secondaries) could lead to a lack of power and driveability at lower engine speeds.

It sounds like a timing issue to me, and usually those will also incur higher engine temps when running.


With an iunknown (stock?) balancer, you need to verify the timing marks. I usually insert some sort of piston stop (large bolt, etc) into the Number 1 spark plug hole, and turn the engine BY HAND until the Number 1 piston hits the stop. Then turn the engine by hand the opposite way until the piston again hits the stop, and make a mark.

True TDC should be right between these marks. Mark the balancer accordingly. Then set the timing.

Either use the cam card specs to set the timing, or somewhere around 10 degrees BTDC. Usually factory specs are retarded for emissions purposes, and therefore don't make the best power/driveability. You can adjust the timing from there, and once you get it where you want (where it runs good), THEN use a timing light to document for future tuneups.

[Andyrew]

NoPorsche, thanks for all the info, its very helpful. As far as cooling, I think I've figured that one out.
(Side note, we flushed the system saturday and filled it back up with a mix of water and coolant, Sunday I decided to drive it to church... Well about a block away I heard clank clank clank clank, and pulled off... the line off the water pump blew off and it was dragging on the ground (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) , although I noticed it had been leaking all the way from the house (1/2 mile away luckly) when I shut the system off, it just emptied. I think dad didnt tighten the hose up all the way when he drained it from the hose, but dont know.. I double clamped the hose, and tightened them down with a wrench. Filled it back up and it ran really nice on the way home. )
custom balancer to fit the engine in the 914.. (Renegade if you know who they are..)

With an iunknown (stock?) balancer, you need to verify the timing marks. I usually insert some sort of piston stop (large bolt, etc) into the Number 1 spark plug hole, and turn the engine BY HAND until the Number 1 piston hits the stop. Then turn the engine by hand the opposite way until the piston again hits the stop, and make a mark.

Thanks, we will definately use this.
Andrew

[Howard]

No Porsche, eh? Let's get that fixed ASAP!

Great info. Have experienced almost all these problems with Moby. Runs poorly. Can only set timing by ear, since wrench installed 305 balancer on new 350 engine so marks are useless. Changed carbs, not the problem. Previous engine was a built 305 so dizzy curve may be wrong for this engine.
Overheats when too advanced, lost most of the coolant, replaced with water, retarded, and overheating is gone. Well I guess. Have 2 temp gauges. Electric sensor is between exhaust ports, and runs 220 there with no apparent problems. Mechanical @ radiator runs 150-160. These are hot day temps.
It may be wrong balancer creating a vibration problem. Not awful, but noticible around 2800. Changing the timing changes the vibration point by as much as 500rpm (???) but it never completely goes away. I'm taking the wrench to small claims as there were so many problems. Have been told by several experienced mechanics that engine must come out and have correct balancer and flywheel (and dizzy?) installed or rebuilding 305 may be cheaper.
Opinions?

[Andyrew]

Howard, Since I was in a rump I decided to check out another forum specific to v8's. I posted to http://www.hotrodders.com/f21
and Im getting alot of good responses.
heres my thread http://www.hotrodders.com/t49008.html

I know there more forums out there, but this one seems good.
Hope you get your claim and everything fixed!

Andrew

[Howard]

Howard, I have no offense to eveyone here, but theres not enough knowledgable v8 guys here to answer our questions. I posted to http://www.hotrodders.com/f21
and Im getting alot of good responses.
heres my thread http://www.hotrodders.com/t49008.html

I know there more forums out there, but this one seems good.
Hope you get your claim and everything fixed!

Andrew

Andrew, thanks. Lots of good stuff there. Don't know if you followed my old thread on this, but wrench's 22 yr old son commited suicide right after he got the 305 out and tore it down. He lost it (of course) and said he would just push my car out on the street. I bought a new 350 from Mr Goodwrench, had it delivered, and his assistant installed. Has been one problem after another, but can't do more until case is heard.

Ran like a bat out of hell with the 305, but it was using 1 qt per 100 miles. Turns out it was a fairly fresh (~500 mile) rebuild but had sat for 3 years. Rings never seated, cylinders glazed, some particles got in the oil and scored bearings. It should be a fairly easy rebuild, and will probably do it once case settles.

[Andyrew]

Ya I remember reading your thread.

I get your point, you dont want to do any work to the car till the case is heard.

[NoPorsche]

no offense to eveyone here, but theres not enough knowledgable v8 guys here to answer our questions

No Porsche, eh? Let's get that fixed ASAP!

Yeah, No Porsche... I have never owned a Porsche, and I haven't sat in one in probably 30+ years (911 Targa? back when I was probably 5 or 6 years old)...

All my life (well, the past 22 years) I have had all Chevrolet "hot rods", both Small Block and Big Block...

My "proposed" next project (hopefully starting next year) is a "late model" Chevrolet Corvair (1965-1969) with a mid-engined V8 swap... I hope it to be very similar to the 914 V8s, performance-wise...

I will probably be using a Porsche transaxle (probably a 930 box) because they are stronger, they have better gear ratios and they will offer more leg room than the typical V8 Corvair transaxle/V8 swap... The typical V8 Corvair swap places the "transmission" between the engine and the differential, which causes the engine to be placed pretty far forward. Using the Porsche transaxle will add 8-12 inches of leg room up front...

Thats why I love to come here and get lots of good info and add my $0.02...


After hanging out here, I have contemplated a 914/ V8, but I personally am still leaning toward that "late-60's Chevy styling". Plus I like the idea of having something most don't think about... Tell the average person you have a Porsche, and they assume its fast... Tell someone you have a Corvair, and most just laugh (if they even know what it is anyway)...

I don't know, I haven't bought the project yet, so maybe I will go with the Porsche 914. There are alot more upgrades/support for the 914 than the Corvairs (like suspension and brake upgrades-there are a few), so most modifications are very "one-off". I am contemplating adapting 1984-1996 Corvette suspension and brakes.

I hope I am not black-listed now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[BIGKAT_83]

My "proposed" next project (hopefully starting next year) is a "late model" Chevrolet Corvair (1965-1969) with a mid-engined V8 swap...  I hope it to be very similar to the 914 V8s, performance-wise...

No Porsche I built a crown conversion in the late 70's and loved the thing.

I see a friend all the time that has a late covair conversion. He uses this for everything Road Race and is damn fast, Drag racing he runs mid 11 sec on street tires. and drives it back and fourth to work. You may even know him if you go to the covair boards.
I've got some more pictures I'll email off the board if you would like.

Bob

[BIGKAT_83]

and one of the engine.

[dan10101]

Had a friend that did the corvair back seat conversion some 20 years ago. I seem to remember that he sold it shortly after it was running. It scared him too much. Seems like he uses a Toronado engine and transaxle. Could just be my wild imagination.

Well tonight we (I) verifed the Timing marks. Thanks NoPorsche for the suggestion. Added another mark to the top of the transaxle site hole and the flywheel. I had it right, but didn't trust my rusty self.

We have a few more things to try. Throw the edelbrock intake and holley carb on for grins. open up the exhaust and see if it's plugged a few more goodies with the timing now that we know the mark is correct. (not necessarly in that order)

Dan

[Levi]

Andyrew,


Levi is incorrect...  True, water boils at 212 degrees, BUT that is at atmospheric conditions, not in a pressurized system.
The boiling point of water actually increases approximately 3-degrees for every pound of pressure.  
Therefore, with a 16-lb pressure cap, the water will stay liquid until  about 260 degrees (far greater than 212)...  Your water should not see 260 degrees unless you really have problems.
100% water will provide BETTER cooling efficiency than a 50/50 mix, as the WATER conducts the heat better than coolant.  Coolant has a higher boiling point, but water is more efficient.  Unless you will exceed that boiling point (~260 degrees) the coolant ineffective.
As Sammy mentioned (page 10), you don't want to run Straight water because of corrosion reasons.For the BEST cooling, straight water with Water wetter and/or some other additive to prevent corrosion and possibly reduce the surface tension of the water .

Oh thank God, finally there is someone that knows every fucking thing there is to know about cars, I guess I can finally quit giving all my incorrect advice.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

[NoPorsche]

Oh thank God, finally there is someone that knows every fucking thing there is to know about cars, I guess I can finally quit giving all my incorrect advice.

Wow, whats with that Levi guy? Or maybe she a woman around that time of the month (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Even his signature "I hate knowitall geeks." Good thing I am not a geek. And I don't pretend to know it all, just a typical car-loving guy that wanted to be sure that people like Andrew and Dan didn't get confused by incorrect information... I am sure we all give out some incorrect info now and then, especially in areas where we might not be too familiar (like water-cooled engines and Chevy V8s)...

Or MAYBE Levi wanted to make sure Andrew/Dan couldn't figure it out?

Wow... It just amazes me that someone can't take criticism when incorrect... I did no personal bashing, I simple was stating that his information about the water boiling at 212 in a sealed engine was incorrect.


Anyway, Yeah, the Corvair... After hanging out here though, I begin to get more interested in the 914...

The Toronado swap is NOT very good for handling, etc, but easy to package and can retain the rear seat... The Crown or Porsche setup places the engine for better weight distribution...

Andrew, I like your project. Maybe I'll get to see it sometime in person (I'm about an hour away from Modesto)...

[Andyrew]

We understood what Levi ment, and we understood what you ment, Levi came over a couple weeks ago and saw my car and chit chatted with my dad (I was in school). Levi's cool.

NoPorsche, feel free to pm me when ever you want to come by and see it! I'll give you a ride.

[aircooledboy]

Daaamn Levi . . . .

What the hell was that all about? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Rusty]

Oh thank God, finally there is someone that knows every fucking thing there is to know about cars, I guess I can finally quit giving all my incorrect advice.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif)

hey Levi...

You're welcome to come by anytime and give me all the incorrect advice you'd like. Heck, I'll buy the beer.

-Rusty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smoke.gif)

P.S. bring the girl in your avatars. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)

[dan10101]

Time for an update and a question...

The car is coming along nicely. We had our first (of many) cruse nite Thursday. It ran great. Still have issues with dragging exhaust pipe. It's LOW especially with my lard butt in there.

We came up with a new problem with the charging system. The new Optima battery drained after running around a couple days.

Can someone clear up the alternator wiring for me. We have a 3 wire system. 2 spade terminals and the large positive wire. I have a 10ohm resistor inline with the activator wire on terminal 1.

The other wires, #2 and the large wire go back to the battery directly.

I see some diagrams that show a diode. Is that a replacement to the resistor? Does it keep the charging system from pulling a charge out of the battery?

We were getting approximately 14 volts out of the running charging system. I'll check it again shortly.

Thanks,
Flunky Greasemonkey on the Andyrew V8 project.

PS.
Here's a pict from our first night on the town.

[skline]

Well, I know you guys are trying to do it on a budget, but Joe just replaced his alternator with a one wire and that is what I am running on mine. It doesnt get any simpler to hook up, and the alternators are about 39.00 or so. Just a suggestion.

[Andyrew]

I very much want to go with one...

If we cant figure out how to get this one to work, and if my OTHER one doesnt work (suposedly for this conversion.... eh..) then I'll go with dat...

Thanks
Andrew