Electric fan for cooling? Options

[teamgravy]

If you go without a fan based cooling system you'll need two 6" ducts from the front of the car to the engine compartment. I don't think there's another way to supply enough pressurized air to the heads/cylinders for road racing, or you'll cook the engine.
Electric fans would probably be sufficient for cooling around the paddock.

So RC, you run this car with no fan at all, just the 6" ducting?
What sort of racing? We are looking at 6-8 hours per day over two days. This was more in line with what I was hoping to accomplish (ducting for cooling at speed and e-fan for pit/warmup.

With rules around the engine and fuel compartments being sealed off from driver, we would have to weld in sheet-metal around the ducting through the drivers compartment if we wanted the inlet at the front like you have here but that may be worth it. I was just wondering what sort of racing you do with this car and the motor/head/oil temp issues you have seen.

[McMark]

The sandwich adapter you pictured will work fine. I use a high pressure sealant (Loctite 518) to on the o-ring since the manufacturing on the cheap ones isn't all that great. Oh and don't overtorque the center bolt or the filter. Just good-n-tight.

[ChrisFoley]

So RC, you run this car with no fan at all, just the 6" ducting?
What sort of racing? We are looking at 6-8 hours per day over two days. This was more in line with what I was hoping to accomplish (ducting for cooling at speed and e-fan for pit/warmup.

Here's a pic of my engine compartment.



The horizontal cooling system is something I developed and have used since 1998.
The fan and the duct are both necessary to control the head temps on my race engines, which produce up to 180 hp.
I mostly race in the SCCA F Production class. Displacement is limited to 1832cc. Races are up to 45 miles.

Why would you need sheet metal around the duct if the duct is metal and the bulkheads are sealed where the tube goes through?
IMO you would need two of those ducts, or the equivalent, if you want to have even a chance with the electric fans.

[teamgravy]

So RC, you run this car with no fan at all, just the 6" ducting?
What sort of racing? We are looking at 6-8 hours per day over two days. This was more in line with what I was hoping to accomplish (ducting for cooling at speed and e-fan for pit/warmup.

Here's a pic of my engine compartment.

The horizontal cooling system is something I developed and have used since 1998.
The fan and the duct are both necessary to control the head temps on my race engines, which produce up to 180 hp.
I mostly race in the SCCA F Production class. Displacement is limited to 1832cc. Races are up to 45 miles.

Why would you need sheet metal around the duct if the duct is metal and the bulkheads are sealed where the tube goes through?
IMO you would need two of those ducts, or the equivalent, if you want to have even a chance with the electric fans.

The rules state engine and gas tank need to be completely sealed off from driver. Not sure if 6" dryer venting is legal. May crush in a wreck and allow fuel into dvr compartment.

[ChrisFoley]

That isn't dryer venting.
Its a heavy weight aluminum high temperature duct for fumes from McMaster-Carr.
A ten foot piece costs more than $125.
It is a very durable product with enough flexibility to route it smoothly through the car.
SCCA regs are at least as stringent as Chumpcar.

[ThePaintedMan]

That isn't dryer venting.
Its a heavy weight aluminum high temperature duct for fumes from McMaster-Carr.
A ten foot piece costs more than $125.
It is a very durable product with enough flexibility to route it smoothly through the car.
SCCA regs are at least as stringent as Chumpcar.

I would say moreso. Chumpcar initially based their tech rulebook on the Le Mons model, but now appears to follow SCCA pretty closely. However, SCCA is still a little more stringent in some areas. If Chris' setup is allowed in SCCA, I doubt you would have a problem with the Le Mons judges. However, its ALWAYS worthwhile contacting someone from the series to verify things before you begin major modifications. Although, Le Mons values each part more closely than Chumpcar as well - that $125 tubing might put you guys over, but I guess they still do the whole credit for parts sold thing. I dunno. This is getting increasingly complicated. Our route: build the car, get the safety stuff out of the way, do a track day and run the piss out of it. If there is any major flaws that need to be corrected, they'll show up then. The rest of it will show up during the race (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[jeff]

I'd worry about cooling the brakes and leave the engine cooling stock ,maybe an oil cooler with a fan on it....my friend ran it in an Alfa and said the brakes went away quick...those are really. Fun events with great looking,funny ideas but be careful !! I think it's just a matter of time before there's a fatal accident ...

[ThePaintedMan]

I'd worry about cooling the brakes and leave the engine cooling stock ,maybe an oil cooler with a fan on it....my friend ran it in an Alfa and said the brakes went away quick...those are really. Fun events with great looking,funny ideas but be careful !! I think it's just a matter of time before there's a fatal accident ...

There already has been one actually. I can't remember it if was Le Mons or Chumpcar, but apparently the driver had a massive heart attack. Very sad, but it was not contact or collision related.

[andrew15]

Endurace racing an aircooled car comes down to a couple of things - cooling, cooling and a bit more cooling.

Last year we had a burned out 911 running in ChumpCar and controlling the heat was the main issue - after 14 hard hours of racing we found a couple of rocker shafts walked due to cam tower expansion. This, along with other failed seals / leaks put us on the trailer.

Keep in mind, this was a rich running 2.4 with the 911 11 blade fan and an external cooler - it still had problems keeping up - we think we needed to have the external oil cooler in a better position

Regards,
Andrew M

[ThePaintedMan]

Endurace racing an aircooled car comes down to a couple of things - cooling, cooling and a bit more cooling.

Last year we had a burned out 911 running in ChumpCar and controlling the heat was the main issue - after 14 hard hours of racing we found a couple of rocker shafts walked due to cam tower expansion. This, along with other failed seals / leaks put us on the trailer.

Keep in mind, this was a rich running 2.4 with the 911 11 blade fan and an external cooler - it still had problems keeping up - we think we needed to have the external oil cooler in a better position

Regards,
Andrew M

Hi Andrew,
I think we met on the Chumpcar forum regarding cages. Thanks for your input on this one. So you guys had problems with head temps, oil temps, or both? I wonder if running a smaller motor, like our 1.7 will make it easier to cool? I assume we have less of a chance of rocker shafts walking with a one piece head on the Type 4 motor as well. Either way, we'll definitely have a backup engine.

[teamgravy]

Endurace racing an aircooled car comes down to a couple of things - cooling, cooling and a bit more cooling.

Last year we had a burned out 911 running in ChumpCar and controlling the heat was the main issue - after 14 hard hours of racing we found a couple of rocker shafts walked due to cam tower expansion. This, along with other failed seals / leaks put us on the trailer.

Keep in mind, this was a rich running 2.4 with the 911 11 blade fan and an external cooler - it still had problems keeping up - we think we needed to have the external oil cooler in a better position

Regards,
Andrew M

Cooling, gotcha...
Yep, I understand that. We run 7+ hours at a time in the Texas heat in our off road car. Cooling is key; 8-9 quarts of oil, a T1 fan and open engine compartment and we still run around 200* if it's hot out.

We have decided to go with the stock cooling system with some minor mods to close off heater channels and get as much air to the motor and oil cooler as possible. We are cutting some of the tins to make it easier to get the motor in/out and work on valve train if needed.

Working on some ducting for the rear deck lid but the pricey stuff won't fly. We are truly doing this legit, paid 600 for the car (+ extra parts) and selling off stuff to get us down to $500 or under to add performance upgrades.

So by purchasing the parts we have for sale you could be helping put a 14 on the podium of some crap can racing series truly solidifying it's rightful place in racing history. http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=202397

[vitis]

I don't know where you stand with your cooling issue but we raced F production with one 7 inch aluminum tube from front to the original fan with shroud ( of course a 1980-83 Vanagon fan shroud is probably a little better) with engine tins and had no trouble with CHTs. I do have a fiberglass engine shroud with an electric fan we used successfully for autocross but I doubt it would be good for a 24 hour event. I'll try to post a picture tomorrow.
You would probably benefit significantly from an oil cooler. You could probably run a couple non-braided lines through the side pod, run it inside around the wheelwell with a metal cover and then up into the front trunk. You definitely don't want those hot oil lines to break and cause oil to get on the driver but being in the side pod would keep it out of the driver's compartment. I will donate an oil cooler if you could use it.
I'll also post some pictures of some homemade plates we made to run cooling hoses from the front to the brake rotors. I don't know how much they help but we did not have any significant brake fade. Buying some really good pads, particularly fronts, would be a good idea. We use Carbotech X10 but probably X8 would be adequate. They are a little pricey but maybe you could work a deal with them (i.e., advertisement).


Milt