 Water Cooled Question, Fan sequencing / works great! |
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| 76-914 |
  Dec 6 2013, 11:18 AM
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#1
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Repeat Offender & Resident Subaru Antagonist  Group: Members Posts: 13,634 Joined: 23-January 09 From: Temecula, CA Member No.: 9,964 Region Association: Southern California 
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For my Suby 6 conversion I've installed a twin fan system (from a Dodge) on my radiator. One is single speed (3 wire) and the other is 2 speed (4 wire). Which one of these 2 fans comes on first? Do they both run at times? Will I use the 2nd speed of the 2 speed motor?
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| mikesmith |
Dec 6 2013, 11:29 AM
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#2
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Member Group: Members Posts: 202 Joined: 5-September 13 From: SF Member No.: 16,354 Region Association: Northern California |
QUOTE(76-914 @ Dec 6 2013, 09:18 AM)  For my Suby 6 conversion I've installed a twin fan system (from a Dodge) on my radiator. One is single speed (3 wire) and the other is 2 speed (4 wire). Which one of these 2 fans comes on first? Do they both run at times? Will I use the 2nd speed of the 2 speed motor? It will depend on what you're using to drive the fans... The Renegade SBC setup, for example, is either all off, or all on. |
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| 76-914 |
Dec 6 2013, 12:30 PM
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#3
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Repeat Offender & Resident Subaru Antagonist Group: Members Posts: 13,634 Joined: 23-January 09 From: Temecula, CA Member No.: 9,964 Region Association: Southern California
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I'm using the stock OEM Suby ECU.
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| mikesmith |
Dec 6 2013, 02:40 PM
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#4
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Member Group: Members Posts: 202 Joined: 5-September 13 From: SF Member No.: 16,354 Region Association: Northern California |
Based on a quick Google search, it looks like there are two fan control outputs from the Subaru ECU. One is marked "Only for A/C vehicles", so it's quite likely that it won't be switched unless the ECU thinks that the A/C is on.
To start with, I'd wire both fans to a suitably beefy relay and run both at full speed when the ECU asks. You could try to finesse it later (e.g. using a SPAL PWM controller with the ECU fan wire connected to the A/C input on the SPAL controller). |
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| BIGKAT_83 |
Dec 6 2013, 04:58 PM
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#5
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,798 Joined: 25-January 03 From: Way down south Bogart,GA Member No.: 194 Region Association: South East States 
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I would turn the two speed on first at low speed and then when the temp increased switch it to high speed with the second fan.
On my car I turn on both fans at half speed at 190 degrees and if the temp gets to 200 degrees both fans go to full speed. This is easy to do using 3 relays. Slow speed is the fans wired in series and then put them in parallel for full speed.  |
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| mgp4591 |
Dec 6 2013, 06:28 PM
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#6
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,481 Joined: 1-August 12 From: Salt Lake City Ut Member No.: 14,748 Region Association: Intermountain Region
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QUOTE(BIGKAT_83 @ Dec 6 2013, 03:58 PM) I would turn the two speed on first at low speed and then when the temp increased switch it to high speed with the second fan. On my car I turn on both fans at half speed at 190 degrees and if the temp gets to 200 degrees both fans go to full speed. This is easy to do using 3 relays. Slow speed is the fans wired in series and then put them in parallel for full speed. Sorry to temporarily hijack this thread, but BigKat- do you have a build thread for your 3.3 build? I haven't seen it and I'm doing the same, just planning stage now but I've got my donor and other pieces. I like your results! |
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| BIGKAT_83 |
Dec 6 2013, 06:34 PM
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#7
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,798 Joined: 25-January 03 From: Way down south Bogart,GA Member No.: 194 Region Association: South East States
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Started with a EG 3.3 and have since changed to a EZ30D.
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) Bob |
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| mgp4591 |
Dec 6 2013, 06:50 PM
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#8
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,481 Joined: 1-August 12 From: Salt Lake City Ut Member No.: 14,748 Region Association: Intermountain Region
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QUOTE(BIGKAT_83 @ Dec 6 2013, 05:34 PM) Started with a EG 3.3 and have since changed to a EZ30D. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) Bob Any particular reason besides weight and size? I thought it was tuff to beat seven main bearings and a flat-plane crank?! |
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| Tom |
Dec 6 2013, 07:17 PM
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#9
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,139 Joined: 21-August 05 From: Port Orchard, WA 98367 Member No.: 4,626 Region Association: None |
Old engineering principle , KISS. The more complicated you make it, the more apt a problem will occur.
Tom |
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| mgp4591 |
Dec 6 2013, 09:06 PM
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#10
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914 Guru Group: Members Posts: 5,481 Joined: 1-August 12 From: Salt Lake City Ut Member No.: 14,748 Region Association: Intermountain Region
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QUOTE(Tom @ Dec 6 2013, 06:17 PM) Old engineering principle , KISS. The more complicated you make it, the more apt a problem will occur. Tom Is the EZ30 really a simpler engine than the EG33, or was the comment about the fan problem? |
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| Mike Bellis |
Dec 6 2013, 09:33 PM
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#11
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Resident Electrician Group: Members Posts: 8,346 Joined: 22-June 09 From: Midlothian TX Member No.: 10,496 Region Association: None
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I have mine on a dual thermostatic relays. They almost never run due to the sealed shroud and proper air flow. Occasionally in the summer while moving slow they will kick on. I found that my electric water pump flows perfectly allowing great heat transfer. While moving my car never gets above 180° at the engine.
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| 76-914 |
Dec 7 2013, 08:41 PM
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#12
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Repeat Offender & Resident Subaru Antagonist Group: Members Posts: 13,634 Joined: 23-January 09 From: Temecula, CA Member No.: 9,964 Region Association: Southern California
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QUOTE(BIGKAT_83 @ Dec 6 2013, 02:58 PM) I would turn the two speed on first at low speed and then when the temp increased switch it to high speed with the second fan. On my car I turn on both fans at half speed at 190 degrees and if the temp gets to 200 degrees both fans go to full speed. This is easy to do using 3 relays. Slow speed is the fans wired in series and then put them in parallel for full speed. Bob, a million thank you's. Clue me in. I'm lost on those pin numbers. And, I don't know what I've got now; single or dual speed? I cut the harness' from one another because the plug wasn't something I could adapt to. Each fan has 1G, 1B & 1Y wire + one smaller blue wire that went between two plugs. I'm pretty sure it was probably wired so that it could have a high and low speed but I butchered that when I cut that harness apart. Black is ground, but when pos is applied to the Y or G wire, the fan will run. Doesn't matter which one, same speed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) Nor is it polarity sensitive. Cross + & - and fans still spin the correct way. So it appears that I have two single speed fans, now. They do pull well though. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Thanks Kent |
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| 76-914 |
Dec 7 2013, 08:43 PM
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#13
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Repeat Offender & Resident Subaru Antagonist Group: Members Posts: 13,634 Joined: 23-January 09 From: Temecula, CA Member No.: 9,964 Region Association: Southern California
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QUOTE(Mike Bellis @ Dec 6 2013, 07:33 PM) I have mine on a dual thermostatic relays. They almost never run due to the sealed shroud and proper air flow. Occasionally in the summer while moving slow they will kick on. I found that my electric water pump flows perfectly allowing great heat transfer. While moving my car never gets above 180° at the engine. I may have to go that route but I want to see if the ECU will control it before I do. If I do I will get with you for details. Thanks Mike |
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| 76-914 |
Dec 8 2013, 08:41 PM
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#14
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Repeat Offender & Resident Subaru Antagonist Group: Members Posts: 13,634 Joined: 23-January 09 From: Temecula, CA Member No.: 9,964 Region Association: Southern California
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Help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I'm trying to figure this schematic out. I see how low works. Relay #1 throws voltage to Fan #2 then back to relay#3 out pin #87a to Fan #1 and on to ground to power both fans on low. Right so far?? High is where I get confused. When pin33 (or Hi Speed) is grounded then relay #2 sends voltage to Fan #1 as well as 87a on relay #3 where it stops and does nothing because relay #3 is now energized breaking contact between 87a & 30. I'm assuming that pin #42 & #33 are not grounded simultaneously . What am I missing? I don't see Fan #2 getting voltage when hi circuit is energized??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) am I missing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif)
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| Mike Bellis |
Dec 8 2013, 09:22 PM
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#15
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Resident Electrician Group: Members Posts: 8,346 Joined: 22-June 09 From: Midlothian TX Member No.: 10,496 Region Association: None
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QUOTE(76-914 @ Dec 8 2013, 06:41 PM) Help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) I'm trying to figure this schematic out. I see how low works. Relay #1 throws voltage to Fan #2 then back to relay#3 out pin #87a to Fan #1 and on to ground to power both fans on low. Right so far?? High is where I get confused. When pin33 (or Hi Speed) is grounded then relay #2 sends voltage to Fan #1 as well as 87a on relay #3 where it stops and does nothing because relay #3 is now energized breaking contact between 87a & 30. I'm assuming that pin #42 & #33 are not grounded simultaneously . What am I missing? I don't see Fan #2 getting voltage when hi circuit is energized??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/WTF.gif) am I missing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/headbang.gif) The schematic above takes 2 "same speed" fans and creates a hi/lo fan circuit. At low speed, Fan 2 gets power from the top relay. The ground path goes through fan 1. This gives each fan 6V or low speed. (Kirchoff's law) At high speed, both fans have 12V or high speed. Kirchoff's Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchhoff's_circuit_laws |
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| Tom |
Dec 9 2013, 02:16 AM
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#16
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,139 Joined: 21-August 05 From: Port Orchard, WA 98367 Member No.: 4,626 Region Association: None |
Kent,
It looks like both pins 33 and 42 would need to be grounded at the point where high speed is needed. You understand the low speed circuit correctly. It is acting like a voltage divider circuit. Each fan has the same resistance, therefore the same value of circuit voltage is dropped across each one, in this case 6v, or half speed for each fan. I would guess that pins 33 and 42 are controlled by an input from separate temp sensor inputs into the ECU. One temp sensor would close at say 195 degrees and cause the two fans to operate at slow speed, when the temp increased, the other sensor closes, causing the high speed circuit to work. The first temp sensor will still indicate closed until the temp lowers enough for the second sensor to open and then the first one to open as the temp falls even lower. Tom |
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| Chris H. |
Dec 9 2013, 09:48 AM
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#17
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 4,048 Joined: 2-January 03 From: Chicago 'burbs Member No.: 73 Region Association: Upper MidWest
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Kent,
Don't want to throw a wrench into things but do you happen to still have the stock fans setup laying around? I was able to graft the SVX fans to the Celica radiator with just a little trimming. This way you plug them in...and they work just like they did in the Legacy. You might have is all figured out but in case you want to look at this JUST AS AN OPTION...  Your rad might be a little smaller...think Ruby914 used a scirocco style as well. He did a great job with a smaller rad in his clubnarp build thread. One fan on one side, one on the other and he reversed the motion on one. Unfortunately you also have to look at that work-of-art air ducting system that he made effortlessly...(insert jealous smiley here) Link to the site: ClubNARP If you're set on the way you're headed that's great, just thought I'd throw this at ya... EDIT: Also on the fan relays, you should still have the fuse box that you pulled from the engine bay of your Subie. It has the stock fan relays in it (mine were labeled FAN and there are 3-4 of them). Use that whole box if you can to make it easy on yourself. Need to run power to it and connect it back up the way it was. |
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| BIGKAT_83 |
Dec 9 2013, 10:24 AM
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#18
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,798 Joined: 25-January 03 From: Way down south Bogart,GA Member No.: 194 Region Association: South East States
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You can cool these subarus with almost anything. This is a 11" x27" fluidyne double pass radiatior. I run right at the thermostat 180 degress and driving the car the fans never come on at all until you are stopped in traffic. Even then they only run at half speed.
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| Chris H. |
Dec 9 2013, 10:31 AM
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#19
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 4,048 Joined: 2-January 03 From: Chicago 'burbs Member No.: 73 Region Association: Upper MidWest
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What the... Bob you have one of every motorized thing in the world.
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| CptTripps |
Dec 9 2013, 12:29 PM
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#20
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:: Punch and Pie :: Group: Members Posts: 3,584 Joined: 26-December 04 From: Mentor, OH Member No.: 3,342 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
That is an awesome setup! Lots less intrusive than some of the radiator setups I've seen. The one in my Renegade conversion right now takes up 2/3 of that trunk.
I've got one "Fan Relay" coming out of my Hydra EMS ecu, so perhaps only one switch is good enough for my use. I'd really like having a spare tire like that available if I need it. |
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