914 Cup Proposed Rules and Classes! now is the, time to make suggestions&modifications! Options

[brant]

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 24 2005, 05:09 PM)

QUOTE (brant @ Jan 24 2005, 03:24 PM) wow.. thats not too fair considering Joe's cool car (914RS) has a 3.6 with carbon fiber body work.. yupp, i'm in the same boat. like nine14cats fully raceprepped chassis with a warmed up 3.6 ... as long as the actual points do matter and not just the class you belong too ... we'll see how this works out. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/idea.gif) Andy

This is absolutely none of my dammnnn business and I won't even be playing.

Plus I really admire Joe's car and think it is beauuutiful..
(I'm only picking on him as an example)

but I kinda like the idea of racing where the primary factor is power to weight..

I know club racing has been talking for years about taking their GT class into a power to weight formula.

maybe for autox it is not as important.. but if there is a straight-away involved in the track.. this makes a huge difference, and it splits up the street (interior'd) cars from the gutted race cars.

[r_towle]

ouch 440

[r_towle]

it seems to me that this has been going on for ages.

If you make certain mods in the SCCA for expample, you bump into a class that costs big money to compete in.

If you lighten your car you are moved up a class...in that class you may do lots of other mods and people do all of them....so if you choose to just lighten your doors and bumpers, you will be at the bottom of that class.

This is why if you race you must read the rule prior to any mod you do on your car, and build the car for a specific class that you know you can afford to exploit.

Rich

[nebreitling]

andy, get some dot-r's and come play with us in Modified! (and give me a better chance to beat you in Fm!)

power:weight just excludes too many AXers -- too few of us have have ever actually put their cars on a dyno or a scale.

[brant]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 24 2005, 05:39 PM)

it seems to me that this has been going on for ages. If you make certain mods in the SCCA for expample, you bump into a class that costs big money to compete in. If you lighten your car you are moved up a class...in that class you may do lots of other mods and people do all of them....so if you choose to just lighten your doors and bumpers, you will be at the bottom of that class. This is why if you race you must read the rule prior to any mod you do on your car, and build the car for a specific class that you know you can afford to exploit. Rich

ABSOLUTELY AGREE...
(its the reason I'm building a new car right now)

Its just that (for example) Andy probably didn't build his car to run 914club rules.

nobody did..

so is power to weight a manner to equalize that ?

Also, I want to add that I'm not trying to be an A-hole.
I think this whole idea is Magnificient and I wish I was able to play. I'm only commenting on the idea... not on the wonderful work people have put into this!

(thanks nathan!)

[Steve_7x]

I am in ...

I assume Super Modified... but until all the final debates are tallied-up and deciphered... I am not 100% sure of my 605 total.

A very late suggestion... if we wish to handicap by points why don't we use a system that already had a lot of thought go into it. Namely the system that GGR is dry running this year.

http://sandbox.visualproduce.com/rulcomm_c...mm_evalform.php

While it doesn't support those with V8 and Mazda swaps - I think they can be worked in by assessing an appropriate penalty, just like big engine swaps... or just do it with CC increases etc...

On the other hand if you want to keep this at the fun and simple level, just divide up into larger buckets and don't sweat the details. As an example I ran a fun autocross in 2003, and the class breakout was based on the # of cyclinders and the type of tire (non-R, R and Slicks) you used. This was a one day event with everyone present... It was fun, competitive but not overly so.

Just some random out of the box thoughts...

[SirAndy]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 24 2005, 04:39 PM)

This is why if you race you must read the rule prior to any mod you do on your car, and build the car for a specific class that you know you can afford to exploit.

thanks for assuming that i haven't read the rules ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif)

with PCA, bill p. is running in a different class than i do, but in the 914Cup, he runs in the same class i do. it's that simple ...

as i said, that's *not* a big deal as long as the actual points somehow count as well.
i don't think a 350 point "Super Modified" should be treated the same way as a 545 point SM ...

just my 2 cents,
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif) Andy

[r_towle]

QUOTE (SirAndy @ Jan 24 2005, 05:17 PM)

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 24 2005, 04:39 PM) This is why if you race you must read the rule prior to any mod you do on your car, and build the car for a specific class that you know you can afford to exploit. thanks for assuming that i haven't read the rules ... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/dry.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif) Andy

nope. just commenting on Brant and some of his comments. Sounds like the SCCA Production Racing forum guys......lots of time arguing rules... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

I would agree that a 350 SM is not equal to a 545 SM

So maybe a few more classes depending upon how many people are involved.

Rich

[Randal]

QUOTE

A very late suggestion... if we wish to handicap by points why don't we use a system that already had a lot of thought go into it. Namely the system that GGR is dry running this year.

Why don't we try something that has been tried and works, like a golf or horse racing handicaps?

[J P Stein]

Most every AX group I've seen has slick tired cars running in a race car group.......some bring a knife to the gunfight, but that's their problem....and was mine last season.
My car is built for SCCAs F Prepared. As it stands now, Bill would be in E Modified, as would Paul (maybe D Mod)and Joe. Am I crying....nopers, I'm gonna get em'. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[nebreitling]

QUOTE (Steve_7x @ Jan 24 2005, 05:07 PM)

A very late suggestion... if we wish to handicap by points why don't we use a system that already had a lot of thought go into it. Namely the system that GGR is dry running this year.

hi steve

glad you're in! i've had a good time watching you run last season -- guys: prepared to get schooled! the ulfster had better be hungry indeed.

i thought about using the proposed ggr points system. as a system for all models of porsche, i think it will do an okay job (jury's still out i suppose -- they've got my 2.0 running against 996 turbos (wtf?)), but i don't think it accounts too particularly well for 914's as a whole. there are somethings that IMHO it penalizes too much, other things not enough. particularly for AX.

i tried to do something more specific 914s, particularly relatively stock and only slightly modified cars.

i'm actually really glad that people are debating this stuff, but it feels like we've got a fair amount of concensus for the rules as they exist on page 1. please: i'd suggest that we focus on tweaking what we've got, as opposed to starting from scratch.

[ottox914]

If we're using SCCA as a benchmark, my car is DSP, and the second car will be either Emod or Dmod, depending upon if we can loose 100lbs or so. I don't think we'll challenge Paul for the lightest 914 on the planet, but at somewhere just north of 1600lbs and 180-200 or so hp...

[Trekkor]

QUOTE

except maybe trekkor's car -- i think it needs more points

I've gone over the rules over and over...still 265 (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

I added non-stock cam, too.

BTW, we run a big group with GGR, but half the events I'll run will be at Marina with LPR. Maybe 50 drivers there.
I think it will be fun to see the results after the first couple of months.

KT

[nebreitling]

i know -- just giving you shit, trek!

yup, i too am interested in seeing what my "marina" vs. "alameda" standings will be.

[Series9]

QUOTE (brant @ Jan 24 2005, 05:16 PM)

but I kinda like the idea of racing where the primary factor is power to weight..

Thanks for the respect, I think. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/huh.gif)

I totally agree with regard to power to weight. A 3.0 and a 3.6 are not the same thing and should not have the same point value.

I went back through and added EVERYTHING that could possibly apply to my car (even non-stock cams when the 3.6 does have the factory cams).

I had neglected to add points for FG bumpers and valences. The only other things I could have are non-stock sway bars, short geared tranny (? I have a 915 w/8:31?) and 305 slicks.

How in the f*ck did Steve_7x get to 605! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

My new total is 485. Let's make it 500 for good measure.

....and you guys don't even know if I can drive. (actually, I'm a track guy and have very little experience with AX, so you guys are gonna kill me)

[nebreitling]

QUOTE (914RS @ Jan 24 2005, 07:09 PM)

I totally agree with regard to power to weight. A 3.0 and a 3.6 are not the same thing and should not have the same point value.

great, this is the type of feedback i need.

new /6 rules:

Displacement (6 cyl)
2.0 = +45
2.01-2.3 = +60
2.31-2.6 = +75
2.7-2.9 = +90
3.0 = +100
3.2 = +125
3.6+ = +150


Steve's car is insane. totally clean, light, sorted, and FAST. watching how it accelerates out of turns is mind-boggling. you can see it "slingshot" foward.

[Trekkor]

As Demick pointed out in a related thread, any 6 that is not a original 914-6 2.0, has non stock cams. ( unless you are running them , 911t ) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

KT

[J P Stein]

QUOTE (nebreitling @ Jan 24 2005, 07:27 PM)

Steve's car is insane. totally clean, light, sorted, and FAST. watching how it accelerates out of turns is mind-boggling. you can see it "slingshot" foward.

"The bottle" will do that for ya (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) ....or was that the other 914 roller skate?

The 6 er deal don't matter much, tho. Most are already in S Mod.......and ya gotta dance with the girl that brung ya.

The Hp to weight is fairly importan, but not the determining factor in AX. If that were the case, we'd all go home when the Z06 torque monsters showed up. There are a couple local Z06s that beat me regular....that's cause they're better drivers. The rest are dog meat.
Another guy I can't beat is that "pesky Miata"......no power to speak of, but he drives the wheels off it......a C Street Prepared car ......140-150 hp & 2000lbs.

[VegasRacer]

QUOTE (Paul Heery @ Jan 24 2005, 09:52 AM)

"Hey you stupid bastard, you missed me!" (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/ohmy.gif)

I wouldn't have put it that way, but I did post my points and class on page 4 of this thread. With the change to tires size points I dropped to 195 points for my car. I'm a bit surprised it isn't more. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)

QUOTE

and yes, trash talking is a requirement    !

In that same post I had also proposed a personal challenge to Aaron which he has chosen to ignore. Must be chicken I guess? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/gunner.gif)

One other requirement should be that all competitiors need to post a picture of their cars. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/drooley.gif)

Hey Sean - are you gonna step up and design and produce a 914 Cup decal? I know you have the artistic talent plus the vinal cutter to do the job. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

[Series9]

OK, I take back the 15 points I gave for good measure and add the fresh 50 points for my 3.6.

New total 535.

JP is right about having to dance with your girl. Mine will be having her first season since the refit, and I think we'll be spending a lot of late nights together in the garage. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wub.gif)