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> Which comes first: Straightening the tub or structural rust repair?
doug_b_928
post Aug 28 2014, 06:16 AM
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I've been disassembling my car and getting a better sense of what happened to it before my ownership. I think the car was hit on the left rear corner. It doesn't appear that it crumpled much at all. In fact, the left taillight assembly was re-used (the black plastic on the end is missing a 1 cm piece and there's a crack in the middle of the black plastic on the back). There's also a really bad bondo repair about the diameter of an average hand by the tailight. So I don't think much crumple-type of damage was done. But, that hit must have somehow twisted the chassis by either pushing the left rear down and/or pushing the right rear up. There is a big difference in height left to right when looking at the rear end (like 1 -1.5"). The suspension ear on the right is 4mm higher than the one on the left. The latter might even be within factory spec, no? Also, the distance between the trunk channels on the rear fenders is within spec for the front half, but the back half progressively narrows to being 1.5cm too narrow.

The longs, rockers, firewall and hell hole are shot and the door gaps by the door handles are too big (8-9mm). So, I'm wondering, (aside from the option of scrapping it), do I get the chassis straightened before metal surgery, or after surgery on the main structural parts? I could see the former tearing the car apart, and the latter creating imperfections in the newly repaired work.

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02loftsmoor
post Aug 28 2014, 07:03 AM
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PICTURES
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JStroud
post Aug 28 2014, 07:27 AM
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I'm not a body guy so I can't answer your specific question. But reading your description I would be asking myself....would it be cheaper( definitely less work) to just get a clean tub. Seem like a lot to repair when there are clean tubs for sale pretty cheap that wouldn't need that level of repair.
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doug_b_928
post Aug 28 2014, 09:08 AM
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QUOTE(JStroud @ Aug 28 2014, 08:27 AM) *

I'm not a body guy so I can't answer your specific question. But reading your description I would be asking myself....would it be cheaper( definitely less work) to just get a clean tub. Seem like a lot to repair when there are clean tubs for sale pretty cheap that wouldn't need that level of repair.


I'll take some pics of the specific things I've mentioned and post here when I get a chance. Re a tub, the reason for fixing this one is that it was my very first car and so I'd like to save it (apparently it lived a very hard 12 years before coming to me).
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JStroud
post Aug 28 2014, 09:55 AM
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QUOTE(doug_b_928 @ Aug 28 2014, 08:08 AM) *

QUOTE(JStroud @ Aug 28 2014, 08:27 AM) *

I'm not a body guy so I can't answer your specific question. But reading your description I would be asking myself....would it be cheaper( definitely less work) to just get a clean tub. Seem like a lot to repair when there are clean tubs for sale pretty cheap that wouldn't need that level of repair.


I'll take some pics of the specific things I've mentioned and post here when I get a chance. Re a tub, the reason for fixing this one is that it was my very first car and so I'd like to save it (apparently it lived a very hard 12 years before coming to me).


Well that's a different story, taking pictures will help a lot. Then the body guys will be able to give you better information.

Good luck
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SirAndy
post Aug 28 2014, 11:09 AM
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QUOTE(doug_b_928 @ Aug 28 2014, 05:16 AM) *
Which comes first: Straightening the tub or structural rust repair?

I would do the straightening first. Repairing structural damage will add rigidity to the chassis that you then have to pull against when straightening.

Case in point, when we had my car on the Celette bench, we weren't able to pull it correctly until we cut the roll cage in several places. It was preventing the chassis from being pulled correctly because it had been welded into the bend tub.
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doug_b_928
post Aug 29 2014, 11:32 AM
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Thanks, SirAndy. I guess if the chassis is held on a frame bench by the pinch welds it probably won't pull apart. As promised, here are the pics to help with diagnosis:

Here is the back view of the car. The floor is sloped so look at the car relative to the bench. The difference is fairly dramatic.

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The car sustained damage on the left rear corner. Here's a pic of the bad bondo repair:

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But the damage appears not to have been too bad in terms of crumpling. Here's a pic of the left rear corner:

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Here's the left rear from underneath (note that the bracket is no longer welded to the fender, but does not appear to have been crumpled).

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Here's what appears to have been a patch put in the left rear corner.

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Although the back view looks like it's about 1.5" out left to right, and they had nearly twice as many suspension shims on the right than the left side, from the trunk crossmember to the firewall the car seems to be out only about 1/4" (higher on the right side). At the firewall it's less than 1/4", but at the suspension ears it's about 1/4". I have the car resting on bars on the bench, in the pics below you can see that it's resting on the bar on the left side and it is not quite resting on the bar on the right side.

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I have two supports for the rear section and have it set a bit higher on the right than the left to try to support it, so I'm not sure how much that is affecting the measurements, if at all. When I had the supports set higher to try to close the door gaps, the gaps did close at the top of the door/rear fender, but the firewall was even further away from the bar. I wasn't comfortable with that so I lowered the supports, which opens up the door gaps 2mm wider than without the support.

You're probably thinking that the f measurement (windshield flange to targa bar is too big. According to my measurements, if anything they're a bit too small (633mm on the left and 635mm on the right compared to a spec of 638mm). Below are some pics of this measurement. The first one is showing the left side so the measurement is to the targa bar:

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The second pic is of the right side so the measurement is to the windshield flange (unless I'm measuring this wrong--please have a look and see if I'm understanding the "flange" correctly.

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So, if I'm measuring correctly, that appears to be good (and the roof lines up and works as it should). But here are the door gaps:

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So, bearing in mind my lack of education in this realm, it seems to me that the right rear needs to be pulled down 1/4". The very back piece (after the trunk crossmember) even more. But it still doesn't make sense to me what is happening with the door gaps. At the fronts they look pretty good, same for top front. But by the door handles they're way too big. It's also interesting that the fenders are wider than the doors. I've assumed that's some kind of shim setting with the doors because it's the same on both sides, but please let me know if it means something more nefarious.

Thoughts?




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SirAndy
post Aug 29 2014, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE(doug_b_928 @ Aug 29 2014, 10:32 AM) *
Thoughts?


Here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=52631

And more pix here:
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=92489

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doug_b_928
post Aug 29 2014, 02:05 PM
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Putting it on a Celette aside for the moment, do the data provide any useful information about where it's out and why the door gaps are the way they are? Am I understanding the "f" measurement correctly in terms of the windshield flange (i.e., I'm measuring it as the point of the flange where the windshield rubber seal sits)? If so, how can there be such a big gap by the door handles if "f" is in spec (or even too tight)?
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stevegm
post Aug 29 2014, 03:38 PM
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For what it is worth - I came up with some wild numbers when I took measurements on mine too. "F" was almost perfect, but, the "X" measurement is off. In fact, so far off that I must not be measuring at the correct points. And my top door gap on the driver's side is very large (which makes no sense given the gaps elsewhere). I checked another car I own and got strange numbers too.

I am watching this thread to see what I can learn in terms of measuring mine to see if the chassis is straight. It seems like there should be a way to determine if the suspension points are square/level, as a starting point.
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doug_b_928
post Aug 29 2014, 04:05 PM
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Steve, did you measure the suspension points in the underbody diagram? The one where you measure from both front points to each rear suspension point should tell you if it's square. I need to redo those ones now that I have it on the bench but have to wait for my helper (aka wifey) to be available. In terms of level, the way I'm doing it is to have it on a bench that's true (my floor isn't level), and measure up from that.
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SirAndy
post Aug 29 2014, 04:19 PM
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QUOTE(doug_b_928 @ Aug 29 2014, 01:05 PM) *
Putting it on a Celette aside for the moment, do the data provide any useful information about where it's out and why the door gaps are the way they are? Am I understanding the "f" measurement correctly in terms of the windshield flange (i.e., I'm measuring it as the point of the flange where the windshield rubber seal sits)? If so, how can there be such a big gap by the door handles if "f" is in spec (or even too tight)?

Measuring from the top of the windshield frame is pretty much useless as the frame bends too easy.

You can grab the top corner on either side and easily move it with your hand. In fact, a lot of people grab that edge to pull themselves out of the car and overtime can easily bend that edge down.

Look for reference points that are in areas that are more sturdy. Any place where you would expect a perfect X as a result will do.
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rick 918-S
post Aug 29 2014, 08:21 PM
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I totally meant to reply to your email but I have been in training for three weeks and my brain is mushy. I (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) forgot.

So "Y" and "h" are better locations. Not perfect but better. If these are consistent then "X" and "f" will better check for twist and windshield frame movement. Sir Andy is completely correct about the windshield frame. I use the doors to check panel fit and then measure the upper body as a second point of reference. It's lots of measuring before repairs even start. If the chassis needs pulling a 914 is not like pulling a coupe. Every movement needs to be carefully thought out or the door openings and panel alignment will be an over pulling disaster to try to recover from.

You car is bent. With all the rust you will need to have it set on fixtures on a Celette. I would say it wouldn't be out of the question to have the welding repairs done while in the fixtures.

The platform needs to be repaired and squared before you can start thinking about the welding process as the welding process will lock the car in a bent position when completed. If you pull it after you will be introducing stress that WILL snap welds.

Fixture rental will run approximately $ 85.00 a day plus shipping to get them from the warehouse. approx. $ 250.00. So your looking at around 2k in addition to any other work the chassis needs.

Hope that helps Doug (IMG:style_emoticons/default/assimilate.gif)
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doug_b_928
post Aug 30 2014, 05:55 AM
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Rick, thanks so much for getting back to me. I figured you were busy with work. I'm out of town today but will send you an email tomorrow.
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rick 918-S
post Aug 30 2014, 07:11 AM
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QUOTE(doug_b_928 @ Aug 30 2014, 06:55 AM) *

Rick, thanks so much for getting back to me. I figured you were busy with work. I'm out of town today but will send you an email tomorrow.


BTW: that's fixture rental and shipping. Labor to work the chassis is what it is. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smash.gif) The large part is how long the car sits in the fixtures while parts are being changed.
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doug_b_928
post Aug 31 2014, 02:16 PM
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Rick, I'm going to take some good pics of the rust and send to you but will wait until I'm finished dismantling so that you can get as clear of a picture as possible.

In the meantime, I've been thinking, would it make sense to put it on the cellete, pull it into submission, then put it back on my bench and make fixtures/jigs for the rear suspension points and shock towers, then do the metal surgery? That way there would be minimal days needed for renting the fixtures.
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rick 918-S
post Aug 31 2014, 08:47 PM
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As soft as that car is there is no way it could be pulled, then removed from the bench and placed on another bench without the car falling in half. If I were to get involved I wouldn't bother mounting the car without the full expectation that the chassis would be welding while the car sits on the fixtures.

Here's an example why: You have two problems here. The rear of the car is twisted, the longs are rusted. A down force pull and a push up will very likely lead to the rusted chassis to become very weak. Weaker that it is now. As soon as it is released from the fixtures and lifted off it will start to sag. The door opening spread when lifting and close when set back on your fixture.

Once this happens how do you plan on re-establishing data points?

Have you ever heard a car creak and pop during pulling? Now try pulling a rusted car and add a crunching and tearing sound.... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif) Two problems, one solution.
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doug_b_928
post Aug 31 2014, 08:52 PM
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Very interesting, Rick. Makes sense. I've never been around any of this but can only imagine the sounds during pulling. You're giving me a lot to think about. Thanks very much for your help.
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doug_b_928
post Sep 22 2014, 09:35 AM
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I had a local expert take a look this weekend. Setting aside for the moment his conclusion that this car is "not a candidate for restoration," he did have a good idea for how to fix the twist. The rear suspension points differ at the most 1/4" side to side. The twist is almost entirely before the shock towers. So, his idea is to cut-off the back end of the car before the shock towers and replace with a donor. I've seen pics of repairs up to the trunk crossmember, but would this work with a butt weld straight across all the way coming to just behind the shock tower area?
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SirAndy
post Sep 22 2014, 10:01 AM
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QUOTE(doug_b_928 @ Sep 22 2014, 08:35 AM) *

I had a local expert take a look this weekend. Setting aside for the moment his conclusion that this car is "not a candidate for restoration," he did have a good idea for how to fix the twist. The rear suspension points differ at the most 1/4" side to side. The twist is almost entirely before the shock towers. So, his idea is to cut-off the back end of the car before the shock towers and replace with a donor. I've seen pics of repairs up to the trunk crossmember, but would this work with a butt weld straight across all the way coming to just behind the shock tower area?

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