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> Intermittent starter issues...
SKL1
post Mar 26 2017, 03:41 PM
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Noticed recently the starter acting up on my '73. I have the stronger starter (can't remember where I got it as it's been a few years, but the same one on my '71 I got from Alan Johnson Racing way back when) and every so often I just get the "click" with no start- sometimes when cold, ocassionally when warm.
In the old days (and I mean really old days, back in the '70's) when that happened you'd hit the solenoid with a hammer and that would take care of it.

This starter is probably 5-6 years old, but used pretty sparingly... now I'm a little nervous to take it somewhere if I'm not on a hill!

Eventually it will start but seems pretty unpredictable. Any ideas???
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Rand
post Mar 26 2017, 03:45 PM
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Clean the battery and ground strap connections. It's amazing how often a dirty connection at the negative battery terminal causes the "click" without crank.
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Tom_T
post Mar 26 2017, 07:51 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

And also check the transaxle to underside of trunk floor ground strap & connections too.

There are those starter relay kits too, which will bring direct power to your starter. My mechanic did a similar mod on our `88 Westfalia.

All VWs, Audis & Porsches from that era suffer form that malady, especially now that they're 40-60 years old with old copper wire which now has more resistance. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

Oh .... & carry that Hammer & a pad or towel to lie on the ground while tapping! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

PS - per my guy of 41+ years who was factory trained on 914s & other V/A/P cars - now it's more a matter of old wiring, than of bad or weak starters. So maybe it's time for some of Jeff Bowlsby's rebuilt/restored wiring harnesses for your engine bay?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Tom
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Mark Henry
post Mar 26 2017, 10:36 PM
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http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...259055&st=0
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porschetub
post Mar 26 2017, 11:43 PM
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Starter relay is partly a bandage for a broken leg ,yes it takes load off the electrics but really isn't that hard to pull a starter and clean it ,providing you have a good ignition switch and all connections to starter are 100% to said starter.
I don't expect an aftermarket starter to last as long as a genuine one buts that's my thoughts.
Good luck.
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porschetub
post Mar 27 2017, 12:21 AM
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Double post....
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Mark Henry
post Mar 27 2017, 06:47 AM
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QUOTE(porschetub @ Mar 27 2017, 01:43 AM) *

Starter relay is partly a bandage for a broken leg ,yes it takes load off the electrics but really isn't that hard to pull a starter and clean it ,providing you have a good ignition switch and all connections to starter are 100% to said starter.
I don't expect an aftermarket starter to last as long as a genuine one buts that's my thoughts.
Good luck.


I heard this argument many times before, to me it's a very thin slice of truth in the middle of a (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif) sandwich.

And these days I'd do it just to take the load off the ignition switch, the new repop switches are total garbage.

YMMV
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GregAmy
post Mar 27 2017, 06:53 AM
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Agree with Mark. There's just no valid reason to power the starter solenoid through the ignition switch. Relay it.
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76-914
post Mar 27 2017, 02:55 PM
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Got to (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) w/ Mark & Greg. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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GregAmy
post Mar 27 2017, 03:37 PM
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I think we need to stop calling this a "hot start relay kit". It's not a "hot start" problem, it's a "shitty electrical design" problem that just so happens to rear its ugly head more often when the car is hot because the starter solenoid is pulling more amps.

I don't know if this is the original poster's problem. No one can say that unless more hands-on troubleshooting is done. But we should all be installing this upgrade, simply because it's a better design.

So I hereby declare this product to now be called "the shitty electrical design" kit, which can be solved for $26 shipped from Amazon (The Bird has it for <$30, free shipping if in a $79 or more order).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001COAX78/

Edit: Additional top tip. Install the fuseholder where you can reach it without soiling a nice pair of work khakis and golf shirt. Yes, I've popped the 15A fuse on mine, a couple of times (tells you how much current that thing draws). And yup, I learned after the first one and re-positioned it into the engine compartment.
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SKL1
post Mar 27 2017, 10:22 PM
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All my wiring to starter is clean or essentially new and I already have the high torque starter, so I'll be looking at adding that relay kit...
Didn't have the problem until I started driving the car a little more this late winter. Only happens occasionally but makes you nervous when you're stopping for gas, etc. Kind of embarassing, especially after someone has walked up to the car and complimented it, which happens about every time I'm filling it up. I'm amazed how many people USED to have a 914... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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HalfMoon
post Apr 11 2017, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE(GregAmy @ Mar 27 2017, 05:37 PM) *

I think we need to stop calling this a "hot start relay kit". It's not a "hot start" problem, it's a "shitty electrical design" problem that just so happens to rear its ugly head more often when the car is hot because the starter solenoid is pulling more amps.

I don't know if this is the original poster's problem. No one can say that unless more hands-on troubleshooting is done. But we should all be installing this upgrade, simply because it's a better design.

So I hereby declare this product to now be called "the shitty electrical design" kit, which can be solved for $26 shipped from Amazon (The Bird has it for <$30, free shipping if in a $79 or more order).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001COAX78/

Edit: Additional top tip. Install the fuseholder where you can reach it without soiling a nice pair of work khakis and golf shirt. Yes, I've popped the 15A fuse on mine, a couple of times (tells you how much current that thing draws). And yup, I learned after the first one and re-positioned it into the engine compartment.


I ordered that relay kit from Amazon. It was TOTALLY bogus and wasted my time. They do not send the 'kit", just the relay. $25 for a $5 relay? Rippoff city.
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GregAmy
post Apr 11 2017, 08:31 AM
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LAME! Definitely complain to Amazon, as WR1 is supposed to be the kit.

Search "WR1-int" on The Bird.


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Mark Henry
post Apr 11 2017, 08:35 AM
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QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Apr 11 2017, 10:21 AM) *

QUOTE(GregAmy @ Mar 27 2017, 05:37 PM) *

I think we need to stop calling this a "hot start relay kit". It's not a "hot start" problem, it's a "shitty electrical design" problem that just so happens to rear its ugly head more often when the car is hot because the starter solenoid is pulling more amps.

I don't know if this is the original poster's problem. No one can say that unless more hands-on troubleshooting is done. But we should all be installing this upgrade, simply because it's a better design.

So I hereby declare this product to now be called "the shitty electrical design" kit, which can be solved for $26 shipped from Amazon (The Bird has it for <$30, free shipping if in a $79 or more order).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001COAX78/

Edit: Additional top tip. Install the fuseholder where you can reach it without soiling a nice pair of work khakis and golf shirt. Yes, I've popped the 15A fuse on mine, a couple of times (tells you how much current that thing draws). And yup, I learned after the first one and re-positioned it into the engine compartment.


I ordered that relay kit from Amazon. It was TOTALLY bogus and wasted my time. They do not send the 'kit", just the relay. $25 for a $5 relay? Rippoff city.


To me the Bosch relay is a POS for this application, likely the #1 reason some say the relay doesn't work well. It's a horn relay and it's not waterproof.

Get the Ford solenoid, suck it up, quit fuching whining about it being a Ford part and do it right the first time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)
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HalfMoon
post Apr 11 2017, 12:12 PM
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QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Apr 11 2017, 10:35 AM) *

QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Apr 11 2017, 10:21 AM) *

QUOTE(GregAmy @ Mar 27 2017, 05:37 PM) *

I think we need to stop calling this a "hot start relay kit". It's not a "hot start" problem, it's a "shitty electrical design" problem that just so happens to rear its ugly head more often when the car is hot because the starter solenoid is pulling more amps.

I don't know if this is the original poster's problem. No one can say that unless more hands-on troubleshooting is done. But we should all be installing this upgrade, simply because it's a better design.

So I hereby declare this product to now be called "the shitty electrical design" kit, which can be solved for $26 shipped from Amazon (The Bird has it for <$30, free shipping if in a $79 or more order).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001COAX78/

Edit: Additional top tip. Install the fuseholder where you can reach it without soiling a nice pair of work khakis and golf shirt. Yes, I've popped the 15A fuse on mine, a couple of times (tells you how much current that thing draws). And yup, I learned after the first one and re-positioned it into the engine compartment.


I ordered that relay kit from Amazon. It was TOTALLY bogus and wasted my time. They do not send the 'kit", just the relay. $25 for a $5 relay? Rippoff city.


To me the Bosch relay is a POS for this application, likely the #1 reason some say the relay doesn't work well. It's a horn relay and it's not waterproof.

Get the Ford solenoid, suck it up, quit fuching whining about it being a Ford part and do it right the first time. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/dry.gif)

I'm liking that idea better. Seems like a robust solution. I have to admit, the data here on World seems to indicate that it's overkill, but seeing as where I have a high torque starter (and a sbc) and my battery is forward mounted (with a long cable run), it'll be the best solution.
What do we think about this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Produ...+SS571+solenoid
or do we like the Motorcraft part best?
https://www.amazon.com/Motorcraft-SW5181-Ne...tarter+solenoid
I suspect either will do as only three poles seem to be needed. I wonder if a real Motorcraft part is gonna be substantially better than a knock off?
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worn
post Apr 11 2017, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE(porschetub @ Mar 26 2017, 09:43 PM) *

Starter relay is partly a bandage for a broken leg ,yes it takes load off the electrics but really isn't that hard to pull a starter and clean it ,providing you have a good ignition switch and all connections to starter are 100% to said starter.
I don't expect an aftermarket starter to last as long as a genuine one buts that's my thoughts.
Good luck.


That may be... But after replacing the starter more than once I learned that the wire gauge to and from the ignition switch is a bit thin for the work of the solenoid. Yeah it is a relay to pull a relay but the solenoid draws a lot of juice.
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GregAmy
post Apr 13 2017, 07:09 AM
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The Ford relay is prob a better solution but the Bird kit is the easy button. But I'd want to know the pull-down current for that solenoid.

The stock starter solenoid pulls some good current; mine keeps popping a 20A fuse on the Bird kit (even though it came with a 15A). And not just when hot. Could be a dying starter... regardless, imagine all that current going all the way up front and all that way back, through flimsy 40-yr-old wiring and a plastic switch...? This should have been relayed when it was designed.
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76-914
post Apr 13 2017, 08:11 AM
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FWIW and IIRC, the Ford solenoid requires ~3.9v to actuate where as the Bosch requires ~9v. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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Mark Henry
post Apr 13 2017, 08:33 AM
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QUOTE(76-914 @ Apr 13 2017, 10:11 AM) *

FWIW and IIRC, the Ford solenoid requires ~3.9v to actuate where as the Bosch requires ~9v. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)


(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) About right, but the Standard SS-571 Starter Solenoid mentioned earlier in this thread is a 6V solenoid and it takes even less volts to kick it in.
Amps for sure less than 8amp, I've never heard of anyone blowing a fuse, I've never seen it happen. I've never used or seen the need for an in-line fuse for the Ford solenoid.


This 6V solenoid works fine with 12V and is my preferred solenoid. Ask for a pre-1967 ford fender mount starter solenoid at your FLAPS.
Even Slits approved of this solenoid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)
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Jeffs9146
post Apr 13 2017, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE(worn @ Apr 11 2017, 11:45 AM) *

QUOTE(porschetub @ Mar 26 2017, 09:43 PM) *

Starter relay is partly a bandage for a broken leg ,yes it takes load off the electrics but really isn't that hard to pull a starter and clean it ,providing you have a good ignition switch and all connections to starter are 100% to said starter.
I don't expect an aftermarket starter to last as long as a genuine one buts that's my thoughts.
Good luck.


That may be... But after replacing the starter more than once I learned that the wire gauge to and from the ignition switch is a bit thin for the work of the solenoid. Yeah it is a relay to pull a relay but the solenoid draws a lot of juice.


The ford relay is a bypass to the starter relay, not a solenoid to pull a solenoid like the Bosch is. It sends direct 12v to the main starter power circuit and requires less ign power to trigger.
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