Experienced Competetion Drivers..., What did this guy do wrong? Options

[ConeDodger]

Fractional error. He was at 11/10's and had only 10/10's talent. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I would give him a 7.5 out of 10! I might have given him a 8 but he kicked the car like it was at fault!

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt T.C. He might be a member here. This was all driver error. Evidenced by what he kicked. That photographer some of you are blaming is within a few feet. If it was my car and a photographer just caused its destruction, I may not kick the photographer (well, ok, probably would) but I don't kick the car.
Some of the hardest corners near the limit which he is just ever so slightly beyond through most of the video, are decreasing and increasing radius turns. When you're at the limit of your lateral acceleration, you can't change direction, even slightly without inviting the devil to lunch. All hell will break loose and it did.
As for the cage? Dude hit a rock at XX MPH and got out. If I were him, I'd be singing the praises of my safety equipment for the rest of what's left of my life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[jmitro]

Maybe Brant could help clarify but I have never seen a 914 in a "stock" class with a 3 foot high wing mounted beyond the rear bumper. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

LOL (IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Dude hit a rock at XX MPH and got out. If I were him, I'd be singing the praises of my safety equipment for the rest of what's left of my life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

I'd have so much adrenaline going I'd be shaking like a leaf

[horizontally-opposed]

watching the video closely, one can see the rear end is loose before he even gets to the spectators

Yes, but we don't know when the driver saw the photographer—or if that's when things went awry. We need another 1-4 seconds of footage on the front end of this to have a better idea of what happened from our armchairs...

[mgp4591]

Keep your eye on the guy in blue checkered shirt (w/camera) on the corner. When the 914 comes into sight the shirt is right on the edge of track, which is the very line the driver has for his corner. Shirt does not flinch or move back as he is focused on his lens. Driver has to make an unintended reflex move to avoid clipping the shirt, which sets him up for the subsequent lose of control. Maybe... or maybe not ! Looks likely though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/unsure.gif)

He may have got back into his steering line a bit too steep after flinching to avoid the photographer.

[DM_2000]

As for the cage? Dude hit a rock at XX MPH and got out. If I were him, I'd be singing the praises of my safety equipment for the rest of what's left of my life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

That crash likely would have been survivable even without a cage.

The car , in effect, did a right side IIHS "small overlap " ( RE near side swipe ) crash test where there isn't much structure to absorb impact. Remember, any metal that folds outside the passenger compartment is desirable when riding down a crash. Had this taken a hit on the left, the cage would have helped the situation by keeping that side of the passenger compartment intact.

One of the faults I see with the cage install is not adequately tying the main roll bar into the rear window structure ( Upper seat belt mounting point is an easy attaching point ). This allowed the right side of the main hoop to push rearward. Rear facing tubes to the rear shock towers would be the standard way to make a roll cage and much better.

Also, the RF wheel well / rocker / floor crumpled and folded the RF down tube rearward. When caging unit body cars for circle track applications, laying 2" x 3" square tube just inboard of the rockers ( 2" facing up ) then welding the cage to that is standard procedure. If the down legs of a roll cage are not tied together left / right and front rear, they will fold as the floor crumples.

Given the 914 front wheel wells intrude into the foot box, I'd be putting some structure there to protect the drivers feet.

Lastly, this crash was more of a grinding scrape than a solid impact, if the car was a foot more to the right, it would have been much worse.

[ablesnead]

The cage worked....he walked...I can't imagine an advantage of having it tied to the suspension , from a safety factor...I remember at about 2:30 in the morning during the 24 , a Porsche courage from France went completely airborne and multi.. rolls ....parts ended up in the grandstands....all that was left was a breakway driver safety cell of sorts...nothing else of any substance attached to it....driver walked , albeit wobbly

[DM_2000]

The cage did nothing to protect the drivers side passenger compartment because the impact was not on that side. If there was someone on the passenger side, would they have walked away?

There are some unknowns, but based on the pics, it looks like they took "roll cage" literally and neglected side / frontal impact protection.

On the passenger side, if the shoulder belts were attached to the cage, the belts would have crushed the passenger against the seat as the cage moved rearward relative to the stock floor. The lap belts were likely attached to stock locations, if the right rocker moved rearward relative to the floor the lap belt would have tightened as well

When caging a car for something like this, it is critical for the passenger compartment to be a tube chassis built inside a stock bodied car. This includes belt and seat mountings being part of the cage not on the stock floor.

As for attaching to suspension points in a unit body car, this is a stronger part of the car than a floor or rocker.

[ablesnead]

have to disagree on that one ...cars have to fit class rules cages are usually specified as to mounting points..often to suspension is not allowed...you could be right about a hypothetical passenger...but you could be wrong also...only a guess after all...In many classes cages provide rollover protection only unit body crush zones provide the rest, especially front to back....hence roll cage .

[ConeDodger]

watching the video closely, one can see the rear end is loose before he even gets to the spectators

Yes, but we don't know when the driver saw the photographer—or if that's when things went awry. We need another 1-4 seconds of footage on the front end of this to have a better idea of what happened from our armchairs...

Pete, that corner is literally a few hundred yards after the start. So, there can only be a few seconds more footage.

He hits two boulders. First he scraps one along the side then head on into one in front. The one is just a few feet from the other so the impact is almost simultaneous.

[Dave_Darling]

It still looks like the crash is inevitable as the video starts, so being able to see more before that would help determine where the loss of control started, and in-cockpit footage might tell us exactly how it started.

It sure appears as if the driver got over his head. That can certainly happen in a few hundred yards--remember, I have actually crossed the start line of an autoX backwards... I'm not sure this guy is much better than I am, which is not a compliment.

Some people build cages so they are legal and pass inspection. In many cases, roll cages can be a whole lot safer and better than the minimum required. Since I don't know the safety rules for Pikes Peak (nor do I even know what year this incident happened; rules do change over time!) it is very possible that this falls into the gap between "legal" and "excellent".

BTW, the whole "11/10ths" metaphor is referring to the limits of the car. Typically you approach the limits gradually, especially on a race track where you get quite a few laps. Driving at 10/10ths means you are at the very limit. Pushing harder than that, overdriving the car, is usually counterproductive (you lose time fighting the car for traction) and makes it a whole lot easier to completely lose control and encounter various parts of the scenery. When those parts are solid, you get incidents like this. So driving 11/10ths is slower at best, and dangerous at worst.

... Overdriving the car is one of the things I have to fight when I autoX my car....

--DD

[Maltese Falcon]

Kicking your racecar especially a 914 is Verboten ¡ Driver running out of talent (been discussed on various forums ) reminds me of a carpenter blaming his hammer for a bad looking piece of furniture.

[horizontally-opposed]

Pete, that corner is literally a few hundred yards after the start. So, there can only be a few seconds more footage.

Good point—but I'm not gonna say the photographer wasn't a contributing factor without seeing another 2-5 seconds of footage on the front end of this. Of course, it's still on the driver, but...I am not sure that wouldn't have caused me a bobble if I saw the bystander doing what that one did out of pure concern for his life—and my sleep that night.

[Maltese Falcon]

My neighbor (Mann) runs this spec built Lister (Beck carbon body) and is 1/2 of the Knoop/ Mann Lister team. It's an 800hp n/a LS based engine, placed front-mid in a tube frame. This car runs all sorts of venues (vara, NASA, Goodwood, etc) including PPHC. There is mostly 99% asphalt paving now at Pikes Peak and lots of grip.
Rick Knoop and Julian Mann are experienced road racers , but the hillclimb is a handful. Not lots of practice time allotted either...more going on down in the town below with pre-race parties and such (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) photo credit Dean Kirkland

[MikeInMunich]

Check THIS out! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

SERIOUS skills!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ken-bloc...-in-climbkhana/

[raynekat]

Check THIS out! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)

SERIOUS skills!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ken-bloc...-in-climbkhana/

Mr. Block is a serious top of the line drifter, so this kind of stuff is child's play to him.
Way over most of our heads for sure, but easy peasy for these kinds of guys to do.
They live in a different universe than most of us.

[mbseto]

To mix metaphors---
It's more fun to drive a 914 at 9/10ths than it is to drive a spec built Lister at 5/10ths.

...but man that Lister is pretty...

[Cracker]

I don't honestly know if that is true but I would rather drive THAT Lister than 99.9% of the teeners I have ever seen - at least at speed. Impressive looking vehicle!

T

To mix metaphors---
It's more fun to drive a 914 at 9/10ths than it is to drive a spec built Lister at 5/10ths.

...but man that Lister is pretty...

[mbseto]

It's always been more of a consolation than an assertion anyway, right?