Home  |  Forums  |  914 Info  |  Blogs
 
914World.com - The fastest growing online 914 community!
 
Porsche, and the Porsche crest are registered trademarks of Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG. This site is not affiliated with Porsche in any way.
Its only purpose is to provide an online forum for car enthusiasts. All other trademarks are property of their respective owners.
 

Welcome Guest ( Log In | Register )

3 Pages V  1 2 3 >  
Reply to this topicStart new topic
> 914/6 GT Cibie Spotlight mount fab, winter project
Retroracer
post Feb 7 2020, 07:24 PM
Post #1


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 7-July 13
From: Bend OR
Member No.: 16,100
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



Attached Image

I’ve always been fascinated by the front lower spotlight mounting that appears on some of the GT cars, notably the winning 1970 Marathon de la Route cars. A few years ago I got a chance to obtain some original Cibie Iode 45 lamps from a seller in France. These had yellow lenses – one fog, one driving - which matched the yellow Cibie Tango’s I have mounted in my GT tribute car already, in the “standard” fog light position within the fiberglass front bumper.

Not clear to me was how the factory fabricated brackets were designed. The inverted “T” cut into the fiberglass bumper meant that the brackets must somehow get fed through that to get mounted; also somehow they mount to the body and may / may not hold the bumper on? Searching in-period as well as recent pictures did not yield many clues; a few detailed the outside construction and bracing, but I had no clear idea of what was behind the bumper cut out. Until: luckily last summer I did get a chance to see the original “Number 2” Marathon car up close at Luft 6, so took the opportunity to crawl around under the front of the car to try and see what was going on.

That is, until folks who were waiting to take unobstructed pictures of the legendary vehicle were bored of waiting for the strange geezer lying on his back peering into the oil cooler opening….!

Attached Image

Attached Image

I took some detailed pics and thought that attempting to make up some brackets might be a good winter project. It is not clear to me (on olde number 2) whether the brackets were the originals or replicas – but I learned enough to want to try and replicate them.

So the brackets themselves (as the pics show) look pretty basic on the face of it. But some thought obviously went into the design, as they need to meet multiple criteria:

- be shaped such that they can be fed through the inverted “T” cut in the bumper
- secure the bumper to the body
- have welded in bracing to prevent the lights vibrating & flexing
- clear the front valance mounting tabs (which are just below the bumper mount holes)

Attached Image

The upper piece in this shot shows the side profile I went for, bent up in aluminum as a test for clearance; one of the main bracket is being fab'ed using mild steel.

Attached Image

The cut in the bumper (fiberglass) was done with fingers crossed but turned out to be correct, the shot below shows a test fit & alignment check before cutting the vertical:

Attached Image

I welded some M6 nuts to the strips to use as mounts, aligned with the holes in the bumper and the body. Cutting the bracing pieces needed some experimentation and mocking up, as looking carefully at the existing photos of the OUTSIDE, it was hard to judge overall dimensions – extension, drop, etc. – so in the end it was basically a visual judgement call.

Attached Image

and....
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Retroracer
post Feb 7 2020, 07:31 PM
Post #2


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 7-July 13
From: Bend OR
Member No.: 16,100
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



Attached Image

So on to welding and shaping (lower shot shows braces tacked in):

Attached Image

Attached Image

My welding is quite poor, but I am a dab hand with a grinder ;-) so I went for adding metal and grinding back for a smooth finish on the brace pieces – rather than the “stack of dimes” welds on the originals which I assume were done using aluminum stock - and stitched together by a competent welder. One element that took some degree of hand fettling was the profile of the bracket so that it could be fed into the front of the bumper, so the central brace required some metal removed, as well as the upper part too – not obvious, but part of the three dimensional insertion problem!

Attached Image

Attached Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Retroracer
post Feb 7 2020, 07:36 PM
Post #3


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 7-July 13
From: Bend OR
Member No.: 16,100
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



I may get them powder coated at some later point, but for now I rattle-canned them for a “cast metal” style finish, bolted on the Iode 45’s and reassembled the front of the car. When I originally did the GT conversion wiring, I added switching, relays and loom for both fogs and spots, knowing I would get to this at some point; but I still need to hook the wiring up and test to complete the job.

Attached Image

Attached Image

You do see some GT’s with Cibie hood lights (which the factory rally cars ran), but few with the Endurance race look, low mounting. The Iode 45’s will be wired so they are optional to low beams, with the Tango’s sync’ed to high beam if needed.

Attached Image

Attached Image

If anyone wants more detail on the brackets – again, I struggled to find details on the web, even combing through Armando’s awesome Pbase site – then am happy to share more info, dimensions, etc. Better would be someone with access to OG factory units and getting them 3D scanned so we have a reference point!

- Tony
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Retroracer
post Feb 7 2020, 07:40 PM
Post #4


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 7-July 13
From: Bend OR
Member No.: 16,100
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



couple more shots (apologies for photo orientation):

Attached Image

Attached Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Sway Bar
post Feb 7 2020, 08:01 PM
Post #5


Member
**

Group: Members
Posts: 88
Joined: 17-December 19
From: Okanagan Valley, Great White North
Member No.: 23,743
Region Association: None



Nicely done, looks the part...Ctrl-C, Ctrl-V, for me.

I have the same idea in mind for my project, still need the bumper mind you but I have the lighting set-up awaiting.

I'll gladly take some specs for a starting point.

Thanks,

Marlon
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Sway Bar
post Feb 7 2020, 08:12 PM
Post #6


Member
**

Group: Members
Posts: 88
Joined: 17-December 19
From: Okanagan Valley, Great White North
Member No.: 23,743
Region Association: None



For interest sake, I saved this pic a long time ago and maybe its the appropriate bracket? Only difference would be the interior mount position since it would push the light slight outward from the alignment you did.

Again, yours does the trick too.

Attached Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Retroracer
post Feb 7 2020, 09:09 PM
Post #7


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 7-July 13
From: Bend OR
Member No.: 16,100
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



QUOTE(Sway Bar @ Feb 7 2020, 06:12 PM) *

For interest sake, I saved this pic a long time ago and maybe its the appropriate bracket? Only difference would be the interior mount position since it would push the light slight outward from the alignment you did.

Again, yours does the trick too.



I've seen this pic before - so this bracket works for sure, but is subtley different from the GT factory ones; they have a strengthening rib running down the center (which matches up with bumper inverted "T" cut out).

Thanks for posting. As you say, it seems it pushes the light slightly further outboard?

- Tony
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
914forme
post Feb 7 2020, 09:19 PM
Post #8


Times a wastin', get wrenchin'!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3,896
Joined: 24-July 04
From: Dayton, Ohio
Member No.: 2,388
Region Association: None



Nice job on the bracket.

Second bracket was done by Rennmetal. Wish I had gotten my set for supplying the parts for prototype and mockup. Oh well, win some loose some.

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
pete000
post Feb 8 2020, 12:22 AM
Post #9


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 1,885
Joined: 23-August 10
From: Bradenton Florida
Member No.: 12,094
Region Association: South East States



Wish they would make those for the masses.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
eric9144
post Feb 9 2020, 09:20 PM
Post #10


Advanced Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,731
Joined: 30-March 11
From: San Diego, CA
Member No.: 12,876
Region Association: Southern California



QUOTE(pete000 @ Feb 7 2020, 10:22 PM) *

Wish they would make those for the masses.

If someone can get me accurate drawings I have a plasma table and sheet metal bender —I’d love to make some 914 stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maf914
post Feb 10 2020, 08:15 AM
Post #11


Not a Guru!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3,049
Joined: 30-April 03
From: Central Florida
Member No.: 632
Region Association: None



Retroracer,

Nice work on your brackets. When I read your thread I thought of the historic 914/6 GT I took photos of at this years Rolex 24. The auxiliary lights were mounted differently and appear to be mounted to the exterior of the bumpers. If I had seen your thread before the race I would have checked the mounting more closely.



Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image Attached Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
914forme
post Feb 10 2020, 08:38 AM
Post #12


Times a wastin', get wrenchin'!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3,896
Joined: 24-July 04
From: Dayton, Ohio
Member No.: 2,388
Region Association: None



QUOTE(eric9144 @ Feb 9 2020, 10:20 PM) *

QUOTE(pete000 @ Feb 7 2020, 10:22 PM) *

Wish they would make those for the masses.

If someone can get me accurate drawings I have a plasma table and sheet metal bender —I’d love to make some 914 stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)


Yep in the works, but with a design change to make them easier to be sold in both done and kit form.

If you are good with a welder, you can get the kit, follow the remarked bends, weld it up. Simple tab and bend design, bolts to the bumper.

Will sell sets premade also, with a choice of powder-coating - like Henry Ford, your choice will be a semi-gloss black. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Also do the rear fog light mounts that do not require body drilling, that is what I don't like about the factory fog light mount.

And then a few other times to come also. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/shades.gif)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Mueller
post Feb 10 2020, 10:53 AM
Post #13


914 Freak!
***************

Group: Members
Posts: 17,146
Joined: 4-January 03
From: Antioch, CA
Member No.: 87
Region Association: None



Nice brackets, those lights look great on the car.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
tygaboy
post Feb 10 2020, 11:07 AM
Post #14


914 Guru
*****

Group: Members
Posts: 5,244
Joined: 6-October 15
From: Petaluma, CA
Member No.: 19,241
Region Association: Northern California



Nice! Wonderful custom fab work. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)
User is online!Profile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Retroracer
post Feb 10 2020, 01:19 PM
Post #15


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 7-July 13
From: Bend OR
Member No.: 16,100
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



@tygaboy and @mueller @914forme - thanks guys!

@Sway_Bar and @eric9144 - At one point I will post dimensions, as there seems to be interest in this version of the bracket. I don't have these in a coherent form (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) , but I think I can figure out all the main dimensions. Stay tuned.

@maf914 : So this is one of those areas where some detail differences among the "GT" cars become obvious. I believe the green car you have in your pix is one of the "privateer" GT builds, which along with the yellow Daytona winning car, took a completely different approach to mounting auxiliary lights. The light unit themselves are different too (instead of Cibie Iode 45's, these look like a combo of Oscars and Super Oscars). Whether these were designed and added at the factory, or later in the US (prior to race events) I don't know, but the positions and bracket hardware are very different from (say) the Marathon cars.

BTW, the Sonauto Le Mans class winning car also has signs of having the "center rib" brackets being fitted at one point:

Attached Image

you can clearly see the "inverted T" cut out in the bumper.

If anyone is thinking about a bracket that works with steel bumpers, you may want to look at something similar to the Rennmetal piece. My interpretation is probably more suited to the fiberglass bumpers, where the bracket actually secures the bumper to the car; the Rennmetal version looks as though to fits between the car and the dog bone and gets clamped in place?

- Tony

(photo credit to Mr. Serrano)
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
eric9144
post Feb 10 2020, 01:44 PM
Post #16


Advanced Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 2,731
Joined: 30-March 11
From: San Diego, CA
Member No.: 12,876
Region Association: Southern California



QUOTE(Retroracer @ Feb 10 2020, 11:19 AM) *


@Sway_Bar and @eric9144 - At one point I will post dimensions, as there seems to be interest in this version of the bracket. I don't have these in a coherent form (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) , but I think I can figure out all the main dimensions. Stay tuned.


the Rennmetal version looks as though to fits between the car and the dog bone and gets clamped in place?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
Yes and that was the appeal of the Rennmetal bracket, if it bolts in and doesn't require cutting etc it's a win. Would be super easy to crank out with a plasma table with solid consistent results...That's not my day job but if I could create something for the community I'd be pretty happy.
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
porschetub
post Feb 11 2020, 02:02 PM
Post #17


Advanced Member
****

Group: Members
Posts: 4,695
Joined: 25-July 15
From: New Zealand
Member No.: 18,995
Region Association: None



So the green car in reply #11 has a mixture of Oscars and Super Oscars ?,I have a set with will go on my car but how do you tell between the 2,is the "super" the larger of the two? mine have 150mm lenses if that means anything.
Just wondering how solid these brackets are ? personally don't like light beams that bounce around.
How did these cars handle the power demand for these lights considering the original were very low output,I have a relay setup with my Cibie's that uses heavier wire thinking I could use that.
User is online!Profile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
maf914
post Feb 11 2020, 03:05 PM
Post #18


Not a Guru!
****

Group: Members
Posts: 3,049
Joined: 30-April 03
From: Central Florida
Member No.: 632
Region Association: None



QUOTE(Retroracer @ Feb 10 2020, 11:19 AM) *

@maf914 : So this is one of those areas where some detail differences among the "GT" cars become obvious. I believe the green car you have in your pix is one of the "privateer" GT builds, which along with the yellow Daytona winning car, took a completely different approach to mounting auxiliary lights. The light unit themselves are different too (instead of Cibie Iode 45's, these look like a combo of Oscars and Super Oscars). Whether these were designed and added at the factory, or later in the US (prior to race events) I don't know, but the positions and bracket hardware are very different from (say) the Marathon cars.



Here is the placard placed with the green GT.




Attached thumbnail(s)
Attached Image
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Retroracer
post Feb 11 2020, 04:06 PM
Post #19


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 7-July 13
From: Bend OR
Member No.: 16,100
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



QUOTE(porschetub @ Feb 11 2020, 12:02 PM) *

So the green car in reply #11 has a mixture of Oscars and Super Oscars ?,I have a set with will go on my car but how do you tell between the 2,is the "super" the larger of the two? mine have 150mm lenses if that means anything.
Just wondering how solid these brackets are ? personally don't like light beams that bounce around.
How did these cars handle the power demand for these lights considering the original were very low output,I have a relay setup with my Cibie's that uses heavier wire thinking I could use that.


On Cibies: First off - am not an expert! - but I found this on Super Oscars:
https://www.ozautoelectrics.com/cibie-super...100w-220mm.html

and regular Oscars:
https://www.ozautoelectrics.com/cibie-oscar...y-headlamp.html

..and the sizes seem to scale for what's on the green Meaney car...? So yes, seems the Super is bigger.

On brackets: yes, have been in a few cars where driving light wobble from flexing brackets can make you quite nauseous! The ones I fabbed up for my car are from 3mm mild steel and maximally braced - so no flexing there.

On power demand: so all my aux lights are relayed and fused in pairs. As for alternator power, I'm not sure if higher output alternators were used in period or not, but for endurance racing, en engine spending most of its time on high speed tracks at high revs will allow maximum current output from the alternator; lots of time spent at low revs and idle would be relying on the battery reserve more to power the lights?

- Tony

User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post
Retroracer
post Feb 11 2020, 04:15 PM
Post #20


Senior Member
***

Group: Members
Posts: 606
Joined: 7-July 13
From: Bend OR
Member No.: 16,100
Region Association: Pacific Northwest



Here is the placard placed with the green GT.

@maf914 Thanks for posting that; it seems to be this car from the chassis number:

https://pbase.com/9146gt/dealer_9146gt_race...91_maxmoritz_19

Exploring around some of the historical shots from that page, there are early shots of the GT showing no extra driving lights brackets at all - just to add to the mystery,

- Tony
User is offlineProfile CardPM
Go to the top of the page
+Quote Post

3 Pages V  1 2 3 >
Reply to this topicStart new topic
2 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:

 



- Lo-Fi Version Time is now: 28th March 2024 - 01:43 PM