914-4 vs 914-6...heat exchangers, Trying to understand Dansk's price disparity Options

[horizontally-opposed]

Another thread got me to thinking about this, and I suppose my honest questions could be construed as an attack on a vendor (not intended), so it's probably better to move the conversation to its own thread.

These 914-4 heat exchangers in mild steel are $268 each:
https://www.stoddard.com/022256091f.html

These 914-6 heat exchangers in mild steel are $3675 a pair:
https://www.stoddard.com/91421100500-sic.html

It looks like a mild steel HEs for the 914-4 may or may not be available for $300~ per side while stainless-steel HEs for the 914-4 can be had for $1800~ a pair. Or less. What I am still trying to understand is Dansk's pricing for 914-6 HEs in mild steel. I get that they have an extra exhaust tube each, different head flanges, and more intricate heater boxes, but… (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

Anyone and any company is welcome to weigh in with perspective so long as it's respectful. I converted my 914 to a 2.2 six a few years ago, and went with a set of used headers that were handy because I was already over budget and had a tough time justifying the price of -6 heat exchangers for a car I don't use all that often and can choose not to use in cold weather (I doubt I am alone in this). Of the current options, I am most impressed with mb911's stainless setup (expensive but seems like good value) and Dansk's mild steel setup (very expensive and does not seem like good value—unless, that is, factory appearance is critical).

Here to learn…

[Mikey914]

I'm sure it's what they think the market will bear.
You have a 6, you spent the money, so a few bucks more as you are in the "special" group.

That and to set up and make them the market will be smaller so less units to spread the costs over. Probably a combination of both, leaning to the 1st option.

Sorry

[sixnotfour]

The -6 they had to make all the tooling ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
The T-4 Tooling was purchased, along with the 911 SSIs stainless are $1800 pair...

[Spoke]

I think it's volume and what the market will bare.

[mb911]

Totally about the cost of start up.. As I said in the other thread that I sold my 1st 50 sets below cost and now with 200 sets delivered I am about to break even.. And mine actually working on engines larger then then 2.7s.. Its all economy of scale.. I am sure Mark also has similar experiences at 914 rubber. For example how many relays do you have to sell to get back to where it makes money?

[peteyd]

The -6 they had to make make ? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)
The T-4 Tooling was purchased, along with the 911 SSIs stainless are $1800 pair...

This is the reason.

They have to amortize the cost of the tooling. The higher the price, the quicker that tool is paid for. Also they try to balance the cost to what the market will bear. If they feel there is no equivalent on the market then they can ask more.

Pete

[horizontally-opposed]

I will say the Dansk units look good as well as very correct.

I appreciate the perspectives of those who make parts for these cars, and those who watch this stuff closely. There has to be margin in these parts, I agree on the tooling costs—though buying John out of SSI may not have been cheap (nor should it have been). Then again, yes, all R&D and all tooling done—which is where I am sure the value of SSI was, alongside sales, customer base, etc.

I'm not sure which way I'll go. The car is fine for now, and there are things I'd rather spend $2700-3500 on given the way I use it (sunny days, usually)—though that might change if I find more time to use the car and/or travel in it. The questions for me as a consumer are numerous: Do I need heater boxes designed to cut it in European winters? Would something more minimal do the trick? Maybe one of Ben's headers on one side (passenger?) and a heater box on the other? (If anything, the SSIs I had with the four-cylinder were capable of putting out too much heat—I'm looking to clear the windshield, cut the chill, and keep my feet warm.) Is stainless steel overkill at this point in the car's life vs mild steel with a coating? Could a small clamshell or clamshells be created as an option for Marty's headers?

Whatever the case, I am grateful that these parts exist at all.

[rhodyguy]

Dansk may have a recommended retail list price? Typical retail markup %? Who knows?
With real 6 prices thru the roof, OEMish 6 parts are prob priced accordingly. If you NEED the real thing for your car you pay for it. That CC ribbon comes with a toll.

[sbsix]

I purchased a set of the Dansk 914-6 HEs when Stoddard first offered them a few years ago. When I received them it was obvious that the flanges were defective in that they were not in parallel and would never bolt up. Stoddard replaced them after Dansk produced correct replacements.

Stoddard has increased the price from under $3K to about $3,600 and I suspect that the increase is due to demand and the very limited market for the product.

The Dansk HEs are very close reproductions but not exact. Several brackets that were on the OE heat exchangers are missing on the Dansks. Overall the they are high quality and as far as I know, the only original looking product available for sixes.

I searched for a long time for original six HEs but never found an acceptable set at anywhere near an affordable price.

[mepstein]

I will say the Dansk units look good as well as very correct.

I appreciate the perspectives of those who make parts for these cars, and those who watch this stuff closely. There has to be margin in these parts, I agree on the tooling costs—though buying John out of SSI may not have been cheap (nor should it have been). Then again, yes, all R&D and all tooling done—which is where I am sure the value of SSI was, alongside sales, customer base, etc.

I'm not sure which way I'll go. The car is fine for now, and there are things I'd rather spend $2700-3500 on given the way I use it (sunny days, usually)—though that might change if I find more time to use the car and/or travel in it. The questions for me as a consumer are numerous: Do I need heater boxes designed to cut it in European winters? Would something more minimal do the trick? Maybe one of Ben's headers on one side (passenger?) and a heater box on the other? (If anything, the SSIs I had with the four-cylinder were capable of putting out too much heat—I'm looking to clear the windshield, cut the chill, and keep my feet warm.) Is stainless steel overkill at this point in the car's life vs mild steel with a coating? Could a small clamshell or clamshells be created as an option for Marty's headers?

Whatever the case, I am grateful that these parts exist at all.

How much longer will you be driving your car? If it 10-20+ years, the yearly price difference between cheapest and most expensive isn't that much.
There's a good reason why Ben's older M&K mufflers still bring 3/4 the price of new. Quality parts are worth the investment.

[Larry.Hubby]

The Dansk units aren't mild steel, they have 400-series stainless tubing and flanges and aluminum-clad steel clamshells. Granted, the 300-series stainless that mb911 uses is better material, the 400-series stainless is still much better than mild steel.

[horizontally-opposed]

The Dansk units aren't mild steel, they have 400-series stainless tubing and flanges and aluminum-clad steel clamshells. Granted, the 300-series stainless that mb911 uses is better material, the 400-series stainless is still much better than mild steel.

^ Good point, although there seems to be conflicting info on the clamshells. This from the original press release/story:

Dansk, a Danish sheet metal and exhaust production company, and Stoddard NLA, a Cleveland, Ohio based Porsche parts retailer, have worked together to launch a new reproduction set of heat exchangers that look and sound every bit like their original counterparts. The key difference here, however, is that the new pieces are crafted of 4026 stainless steel tubing with galvanized steel stamped heat boxes.

Dansk may have a recommended retail list price? Typical retail markup %? Who knows?
With real 6 prices thru the roof, OEMish 6 parts are prob priced accordingly. If you NEED the real thing for your car you pay for it. That CC ribbon comes with a toll.

Top 1970-1971 914-6 street cars have traded at $80-130k in recent years, but should pricing for repro parts be tied to those prices? The "real thing"—NOS or great used parts with correct date codes, etc—are something else, and I understand why prices for period factory parts are tied to the cars.

Dansk 914-6 HEs are priced at ~3.5% of the value of a $100,000 914-6…but more like 10-20% of the value of all but the nicest six conversions. That's $2200-2900 for some stamped clamshells wrapped around headers that have (very good) competition at $683-1400. Is there something complicated or tricky about those clamshells? If so, I'm game to learn about that. Would help me better understand the pricing.

I purchased a set of the Dansk 914-6 HEs when Stoddard first offered them a few years ago. When I received them it was obvious that the flanges were defective in that they were not in parallel and would never bolt up. Stoddard replaced them after Dansk produced correct replacements.

Stoddard has increased the price from under $3K to about $3,600 and I suspect that the increase is due to demand and the very limited market for the product.

The Dansk HEs are very close reproductions but not exact. Several brackets that were on the OE heat exchangers are missing on the Dansks. Overall the they are high quality and as far as I know, the only original looking product available for sixes.

I searched for a long time for original six HEs but never found an acceptable set at anywhere near an affordable price.

Thanks for chiming in with your experience. I think they are the only original looking product for sixes, which is why I've had my eye on them. Interesting to hear some details are missing, but good to hear the quality is high from a customer. I remember the flange problem, and was impressed by the way Stoddard and Dansk addressed it.

I do wonder if the very limited demand is related to the pricing structure, as I think they are in high demand, but everyone who wants them has had the same experience: "I searched for a long time…but never found an acceptable set at anywhere near an affordable price."

[horizontally-opposed]

How much longer will you be driving your car? If it 10-20+ years, the yearly price difference between cheapest and most expensive isn't that much.
There's a good reason why Ben's older M&K mufflers still bring 3/4 the price of new. Quality parts are worth the investment.

Yeah, I'm all for quality parts, which are often cheaper in the long run, and very good point too about the yearly cost. I've "justified" plenty of other purchases that way, and rarely regretted doing so. I guess I am just trying to "right size" heat exchangers given how and how much I use my 914 these days.

As above: Do I need heater boxes designed for daily use in European winters? Would something more minimal do the trick? Maybe one of Ben's headers on one side (passenger?) with a heat exchanger on the other? (If anything, my 914-4 SSIs were capable of putting out too much heat—I'm looking to clear the windshield, cut the chill, and keep my feet warm.) Is stainless overkill at this point in the car's life vs lesser steel with a coating?

[mb911]

How much longer will you be driving your car? If it 10-20+ years, the yearly price difference between cheapest and most expensive isn't that much.
There's a good reason why Ben's older M&K mufflers still bring 3/4 the price of new. Quality parts are worth the investment.

Yeah, I'm all for quality parts, which are often cheaper in the long run, and very good point too about the yearly cost. I've "justified" plenty of other purchases that way, and rarely regretted doing so. I guess I am just trying to "right size" heat exchangers given how and how much I use my 914 these days.

As above: Do I need heater boxes designed for daily use in European winters? Would something more minimal do the trick? Maybe one of Ben's headers on one side (passenger?) with a heat exchanger on the other? (If anything, my 914-4 SSIs were capable of putting out too much heat—I'm looking to clear the windshield, cut the chill, and keep my feet warm.) Is stainless overkill at this point in the car's life vs lesser steel with a coating?

I think 1 heat exchanger would be enough for most climates.. Also keep in mind when I developed mine the market was 1.625 versus oem which is 1.5" .. I do now make a stepped version of 1.5 to 1.625.. So I guess an apples to oranges comparison

[Superhawk996]

Is stainless overkill at this point in the car's life vs lesser steel with a coating?

Personal choice, but, IMHO, stainless is always the right choice for exhaust components. We've all pretty much forgotten how quickly mild steel rusts out in an exhaust since stainless has become the norm on OEM exhaust systems due to 10 year mandate w.r.t emissions integrity of the system.

Exhaust sytems constantly have condensation in them combined with an corrosive mix of emission particles. Rots mild steel from the inside out.

Back in the day of mild steel, in the mid-west rust belt, it wasn't uncommon to have to replace mufflers and pipes every 4 years or less due to corrosion.

Now stainless exhaust systems largely last the life of vehicles.

[mb911]

Is stainless overkill at this point in the car's life vs lesser steel with a coating?

Personal choice, but, IMHO, stainless is always the right choice for exhaust components. We've all pretty much forgotten how quickly mild steel rusts out in an exhaust since stainless has become the norm on OEM exhaust systems due to 10 year mandate w.r.t emissions integrity of the system.

Exhaust sytems constantly have condensation in them combined with an corrosive mix of emission particles. Rots mild steel from the inside out.

Back in the day of mild steel, in the mid-west rust belt, it wasn't uncommon to have to replace mufflers and pipes every 4 years or less due to corrosion.

Now stainless exhaust systems largely last the life of vehicles.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Most have forgotten that..

Also keep in mind that Dansk is a big business.. They have to make sure everything pencils out .. The amount of 914-6 conversion is likely growing but if you real market is the 3000 original cars and the 6 or 7000 conversions thats incredibly small market..

Now how many folks building a conversion are using small engines besides me and @superhawk996 that would be fine with the primary sizing of 1.5? An even smaller percentage.. Most conversions I see are 3.0 and above.. Again I say economy of scale..

[rgalla9146]

Is stainless overkill at this point in the car's life vs lesser steel with a coating?

Personal choice, but, IMHO, stainless is always the right choice for exhaust components. We've all pretty much forgotten how quickly mild steel rusts out in an exhaust since stainless has become the norm on OEM exhaust systems due to 10 year mandate w.r.t emissions integrity of the system.

Exhaust sytems constantly have condensation in them combined with an corrosive mix of emission particles. Rots mild steel from the inside out.

Back in the day of mild steel, in the mid-west rust belt, it wasn't uncommon to have to replace mufflers and pipes every 4 years or less due to corrosion.

Now stainless exhaust systems largely last the life of vehicles.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Most have forgotten that..

Also keep in mind that Dansk is a big business.. They have to make sure everything pencils out .. The amount of 914-6 conversion is likely growing but if you real market is the 3000 original cars and the 6 or 7000 conversions thats incredibly small market..

Now how many folks building a conversion are using small engines besides me and @superhawk996 that would be fine with the primary sizing of 1.5? An even smaller percentage.. Most conversions I see are 3.0 and above.. Again I say economy of scale..

I'm in the small engine conversion group with a '68 normal engine.....for now.
Are the Dansk/ Stoddard 6cyl. repros mild steel ?

[mb911]

Is stainless overkill at this point in the car's life vs lesser steel with a coating?

Personal choice, but, IMHO, stainless is always the right choice for exhaust components. We've all pretty much forgotten how quickly mild steel rusts out in an exhaust since stainless has become the norm on OEM exhaust systems due to 10 year mandate w.r.t emissions integrity of the system.

Exhaust sytems constantly have condensation in them combined with an corrosive mix of emission particles. Rots mild steel from the inside out.

Back in the day of mild steel, in the mid-west rust belt, it wasn't uncommon to have to replace mufflers and pipes every 4 years or less due to corrosion.

Now stainless exhaust systems largely last the life of vehicles.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

Most have forgotten that..

Also keep in mind that Dansk is a big business.. They have to make sure everything pencils out .. The amount of 914-6 conversion is likely growing but if you real market is the 3000 original cars and the 6 or 7000 conversions thats incredibly small market..

Now how many folks building a conversion are using small engines besides me and @superhawk996 that would be fine with the primary sizing of 1.5? An even smaller percentage.. Most conversions I see are 3.0 and above.. Again I say economy of scale..

I'm in the small engine conversion group with a '68 normal engine.....for now.
Are the Dansk/ Stoddard 6cyl. repros mild steel ?

4 series tubes are what they claim but galvanized heat shrouds

[IronHillRestorations]

I wonder how many of those 1.7/1.8 HE's are old stock. The demand for those is probably fractional compared to 2.0's or 6's.

[gereed75]

Every time this discussion comes up I wonder why no one has tried this “heat muff” method in conjunction with any of the less expensive headers readily available You only need some straight section of exhaust header to mate these to. https://www.ebay.com/i/153814316540?chn=ps&...rRoCzSUQAvD_BwE

These are used extensively on light aircraft, they come in a variety of sizes and can be adjusted to desired length with a pair of tin snipes.

I have a single 10” long heat muff on my RV 6 experimental aircraft. It puts out a lot of heat. Enough to knock the chill off of a very drafty cabin in the below freezing temperatures common in winter at 10’O00 feet.

Here is a much more sophisticated version. https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/eppa...eat05-15249.php. (They must be good - they are “turbo”)

No doubt in my mind two of these mated to the OE heat system would provide plenty of heat to defrost windows and knock the chill off of a cold cabin, which is what most of us need since generally these are not cold climate driven cars.

They would not provide as much heat as the OEM design but when I turn on my stock six ones, I always end up just cracking the air diversion valves because generally the OE ones are way too hot.

These small ones also would not interfere with access to the exhaust studs for installing the headers. And they are readily removable so you can inspect for leaks in the header, unlike a set of old OEM ones that always make me cringe when I fire them up, not being fond of sleeping the big sleep.