Big Slice of Reality Pie., 2056 D-jet Dyno run Options

[Mark Henry]

I have a real hard time believing that an EFI system on it's own gave any kind of a HP increase let alone a claimed almost 20%.

You're claiming that your EFI alone can add more HP than a set of Tangerine headers.
Unless you want to send me a system to try out, an experienced engine builder...I have to say (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

[JamesM]

I have a real hard time believing that an EFI system on it's own gave any kind of a HP increase let alone a claimed almost 20%.

You're claiming that your EFI alone can add more HP than a set of Tangerine headers.
Unless you want to send me a system to try out, an experienced engine builder...I have to say (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

"Add" I don't believe is the correct word, I think unlocking the full potential is probably more accurate. I have heard similar numbers quoted by guys that went to extreme lengths to optimize and dial in their d-jet motors.

There are for sure gains to be had in in the midrange due to a fully programable 3d ignition map, and optimizations to efficiency across the board, but yes, in theory a perfectly dialed d-jet system at WOT might be able to hit the same PEAK numbers(while sacrificing performance in other areas) , but who has perfectly dialed in d-jet system and with d-jets age and analog nature how well does that tune even hold once dialed in??



This here is a fun read:

http://www.1800philes.com/tuning_article.html

This write up was part of my inspiration when i initially converted my car to Megasquirt back in 2004, this was my main reference as up to that point no one had done a 914. Very similar situation to this volvo 1800 in that it started as a 2.0 d-jet car, and you will see the outcome is similar to what has been reported here. Note the issue he has with d-jet on his initial Dyno pulls, the max power he was able to dial after tweaking d-jet, and then the max power he dialed in after going to Megasquirt. Also note this install is with very early Megasquirt hardware, no ignition control, less accurate stock sensors, and 45 year old stock d-jet injectors, so i would bet it could be further optimized as well. 88HP on the initial run with d-jet, 102 on the MS pulls after tuning

Other interesting points was d-jet leaning out hard above 5000rpm and that by optimizing his d-jet setup for peak numbers he impacted power/driveability across the rest of the RPM range.

I have a hard time calling BS when dealing with hard data and dyno sheets.

oh, and after some headwork and adding ignition control he pulled 110hp to the wheels.
http://www.1800philes.com/splitting_hairs.html

[914_teener]

I have a real hard time believing that an EFI system on it's own gave any kind of a HP increase let alone a claimed almost 20%.

You're claiming that your EFI alone can add more HP than a set of Tangerine headers.
Unless you want to send me a system to try out, an experienced engine builder...I have to say (IMG:style_emoticons/default/bs.gif)

"Add" I don't believe is the correct word, I think unlocking the full potential is probably more accurate. I have heard similar numbers quoted by guys that went to extreme lengths to optimize and dial in their d-jet motors.

There are for sure gains to be had in in the midrange due to a fully programable 3d ignition map, and optimizations to efficiency across the board, but yes, in theory a perfectly dialed d-jet system at WOT might be able to hit the same PEAK numbers(while sacrificing performance in other areas) , but who has perfectly dialed in d-jet system and with d-jets age and analog nature how well does that tune even hold once dialed in??



This here is a fun read:

http://www.1800philes.com/tuning_article.html

This write up was part of my inspiration when i initially converted my car to Megasquirt back in 2004, this was my main reference as up to that point no one had done a 914. Very similar situation to this volvo 1800 in that it started as a 2.0 d-jet car, and you will see the outcome is similar to what has been reported here. Note the issue he has with d-jet on his initial Dyno pulls, the max power he was able to dial after tweaking d-jet, and then the max power he dialed in after going to Megasquirt. Also note this install is with very early Megasquirt hardware, no ignition control, less accurate stock sensors, and 45 year old stock d-jet injectors, so i would bet it could be further optimized as well. 88HP on the initial run with d-jet, 102 on the MS pulls after tuning

Other interesting points was d-jet leaning out hard above 5000rpm and that by optimizing his d-jet setup for peak numbers he impacted power/driveability across the rest of the RPM range.

I have a hard time calling BS when dealing with hard data and dyno sheets.

oh, and after some headwork and adding ignition control he pulled 110hp to the wheels.
http://www.1800philes.com/splitting_hairs.html

Oh boy...here we go again..arguing apples and oranges.


If I'd was considering doing aftermarket EFI on a TIV Id definately ask or have somebody that has done it before, especially on a new build.

Not a question of what is better....it's a question of what someone wants.

[Mark Henry]

I don't care what is the best system, my problem is with the claim that a certain FI system alone adds horsepower which is total horse shit.

If you put an expensive FI system on a turd engine, you'll still have a turd engine.
If you put an expensive FI system on a new engine with increased flow, cam, headers, etc, improvements of course you will have more horsepower. Duh!

Tell you what, send me a system tuned to a stock 2056cc with a web#73 and I'll have 3 brand new identical engines ready to test on a Djet, SDS and your system.
I'm serious, I'm already building 5 of these turn-key engines and they will be ready mid-summer.
If you want to take it further I'll also have a 2.3 stroker performance engine that we could test with 44mm webers, and 46mm ITB's with SDS and your system.

We would have to take up a collection for dyno time cash donations but I bet enough members will pony up for this event.

[GregAmy]

FWIW, my experience supports Mark's position.

I had a well-used stock 2L with perfectly functioning D-Jet. Everything worked as designed, with recently-cleaned injectors, a Tangerine-rebuilt MPS, replaced TPS board, the works. It stumbled electrically on me a few times, implying it needed a new wiring harness, but the system fired up every time, functioned as expected, and returned ~26mpg.

As described in my blog, I made the decision to design a Microsquirt setup primarily for dependability and for access to modern components and tunability. Plus, I've been giving thought to building a 914 for SCCA's HProduction class (if they ever let it in) and that had to use FI with the stock throttle body. I designed my street installation for batch injection (just like D-Jet does) and wasted spark (for ignition component simplicity).

After firing up the system and properly tuning it (both on the street and on a Dynapack) I did not noticed any increase in power or torque. I do notice ease of start-up and warm up, smoothness of operation, and I got a mpg or two more out of it. But in no way could I claim a ~20% increase in power or torque, that just didn't happen.

The last dyno we did, prior to my replacing the short block over the winter, resulted in 74whp and 96wtq (see post #11). That's pretty much original stock numbers.

No, I didn't dyno the engine before replacing the D-Jet with MS. But honestly, do we really think the properly-functioning D-Jet system was so bad that it would have resulted in ~20% less output than the above? Do you really think Bosch/Porsche left that much on the table, given that D-Jet really does not vary that much in overall concept and functionality from modern EFI systems?

I personally don't.

Bottom line, MS is really cool, and I do like it a lot. I recommend it. It will give you better startup and warm up, smoothness, tunability, feedback control of fuel and ignition, and will have components that are modern and more-available to replace from more sources and less expensive.

But it won't do miracles.

Greg

[Bleyseng]

I have agree with Mark and Greg that I doubt that you’ll get a 20% increase in hp over a working Djet set up. My dyno chart from 2000 was on a fresh rebuilt 2.0 w/flat topped pistons-91 hp 108lbs torque. Now with lots of mods and tuning I know I have way more than that plus it revs to 6500rpms with ease. Guess I should dyno it again for real data.

[Olympic 914]

As stated in my first post..

the readings will depend on the type of Dyno you are using.

Interesting read > https://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214597

Many people prefer the Dynojet dyno since it provides higher readings. for tuning purposes you should stick with the same shop / dyno when testing

So those posting their numbers should also specify what type of dyno those numbers were achieved on.

[GregAmy]

I always use Dynapack. It controls the inertia/rate of acceleration, eliminates variances in wheel/tires size/pressure/grip, and measures the torque directly at the driving wheel hubs.

It's the only dyno we use for our racing/tuning programs.

[jd74914]

@GregAmy Who do you typically use for a dyno shop?

[GregAmy]

John Malepetsis, Performance and Styling in Manchester. His FB page and web site are not up to date but he's still in biz...I've known him for a while, from back when I was racing Nissans.

If the number on his FB page isn't accurate, PM me and I'll get his cell number to you (or get yours and ask him to contact you).

https://www.facebook.com/Performance-and-St...144039948960375

I need to find a free Saturday to get the 2056 dyno'd. Then after that I'm installing a Tangering exhaust to see how much that improves life.

[Superhawk996]

Best dyno accuracy is going to be an engine dyno. Less variability vs. chassis dynos.

I'd throw a few $$ in the pot in favor or Mark's proposal.

[914_teener]

I don't care what is the best system, my problem is with the claim that a certain FI system alone adds horsepower which is total horse shit.

If you put an expensive FI system on a turd engine, you'll still have a turd engine.
If you put an expensive FI system on a new engine with increased flow, cam, headers, etc, improvements of course you will have more horsepower. Duh!

Tell you what, send me a system tuned to a stock 2056cc with a web#73 and I'll have 3 brand new identical engines ready to test on a Djet, SDS and your system.
I'm serious, I'm already building 5 of these turn-key engines and they will be ready mid-summer.
If you want to take it further I'll also have a 2.3 stroker performance engine that we could test with 44mm webers, and 46mm ITB's with SDS and your system.

We would have to take up a collection for dyno time cash donations but I bet enough members will pony up for this event.

I don't disagree Mark. So since you do this for a living: for a stock motor what would you recommend for a customer who wants a stock motor and is mindful of budjet?

Since all the D-jet parts still have replacements available thanks to Jeff, Chris and to some extent Mark, what is the best bang for the buck?

I don't think the German engineers left anything on the table for sure.

For a non stock engine what would you recommend all things being equal and reliability and money no object and why?

[JamesM]

No, I didn't dyno the engine before replacing the D-Jet with MS. But honestly, do we really think the properly-functioning D-Jet system was so bad that it would have resulted in ~20% less output than the above? Do you really think Bosch/Porsche left that much on the table, given that D-Jet really does not vary that much in overall concept and functionality from modern EFI systems?

I personally don't.

I dont think they left much on the table, at least for the motor they built to work with it (some maybe due to mass production and the limits of technology) but d-jet is an analog system and therefore will not match exact engine fueling needs across the entire operating range and more importantly, d-jet is 50+ years old and at this point so any of them being "properly-functioning" is questionable, not to mention there is nothing to account for slight differences in engine build/wear etc.

and to be fair, did anyone actually claim going with modern injection will get you 20% more power? AFAIK all that has been reported on is what has been observed (dyno results)

As long as an engine is getting the ideal amount of fuel and producing the spark at the perfect time then there are no performance gains to be had by changing the setup. That being said, throw a timing light on a car with a stock distributor and one running a 36-1 crank wheel+coil pack and you can visually see the difference in timing accuracy. More accurate timing, more accurate fuel mixture, better fuel atomization from modern injectors, etc... these things add up.

[JamesM]

Since all the D-jet parts still have replacements available thanks to Jeff, Chris and to some extent Mark, what is the best bang for the buck?

They don't though, and that is another part of the problem.

Yes there are parts that can be utilized to keep them going, 123dizzy etc, but at that point you are no longer stock anyways, so unless you are going for a concours build, why bother holding on to the rest of the system when more reliable options are available?

I say this all as someone who 20 years ago was very much a d-jet purrist. At this point my desire to enjoy the best running 914s as often as i can with as little work as possible trumps my d-jet purrist nature and all the work that comes with that.

Anyways... apologies that this thread is getting way off track

[jd74914]

John Malepetsis, Performance and Styling in Manchester. His FB page and web site are not up to date but he's still in biz...I've known him for a while, from back when I was racing Nissans.

If the number on his FB page isn't accurate, PM me and I'll get his cell number to you (or get yours and ask him to contact you).

https://www.facebook.com/Performance-and-St...144039948960375

I need to find a free Saturday to get the 2056 dyno'd. Then after that I'm installing a Tangering exhaust to see how much that improves life.

Thanks Greg. I've driven by there literally 1000s of times-no idea there was a legit dyno there.

[Mark Henry]

I don't care what is the best system, my problem is with the claim that a certain FI system alone adds horsepower which is total horse shit.

If you put an expensive FI system on a turd engine, you'll still have a turd engine.
If you put an expensive FI system on a new engine with increased flow, cam, headers, etc, improvements of course you will have more horsepower. Duh!

Tell you what, send me a system tuned to a stock 2056cc with a web#73 and I'll have 3 brand new identical engines ready to test on a Djet, SDS and your system.
I'm serious, I'm already building 5 of these turn-key engines and they will be ready mid-summer.
If you want to take it further I'll also have a 2.3 stroker performance engine that we could test with 44mm webers, and 46mm ITB's with SDS and your system.

We would have to take up a collection for dyno time cash donations but I bet enough members will pony up for this event.

I don't disagree Mark. So since you do this for a living: for a stock motor what would you recommend for a customer who wants a stock motor and is mindful of budjet?

Since all the D-jet parts still have replacements available thanks to Jeff, Chris and to some extent Mark, what is the best bang for the buck?

I don't think the German engineers left anything on the table for sure.

For a non stock engine what would you recommend all things being equal and reliability and money no object and why?

I'm building 5 Djets right now, 2056cc, KB pistons, web 73 full restoration, everything will be clean and rebuilt. 3 are for customers cars, two GA case engines are going into stock but I think I have the 4th one already sold. One engine will be 96mm AA pistons and cylinders, PO already had them. Never done this many of the same engine before.

But... I'll build you whatever you want. Bring money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Best dyno accuracy is going to be an engine dyno. Less variability vs. chassis dynos.

I'd throw a few $$ in the pot in favor or Mark's proposal.

Even an engine dyno results are subjective at best and there's many factors that can skew results from temp, humidity, altitude to the big one...the operator.

I've got a email out to dynapack, but I bet it's out of my budget range. Too bad the bike dyno is a different unit I could make money on that.

[914_teener]

James is right...and back to the OP.

Maybe and it sounds like it, the expectation was more and what was had was realistic and hence the title of the thread.


The compression ratio was built for reliability and the dyno reflects this.

I would just add...these cars now are entering a collector status and I'd predict that more folks will want "stockish" or original components like Mark is seeing.

Like it or not.


If you want over 150 HP or over that then get a six or a modern Porsche.

[bbrock]

Great bedtime reading. Not for the TL;DR crowd.

https://tgadrivel.blogspot.com/2020/03/on-m...914-part-1.html

Followed your advice and read the whole thing last night. Fantastic reading. Thanks! I haven't even test driven my freshly rebuilt 2L with 40IDFs yet but already fantasizing about Microsquirt. Sounds like it could be tuned to work with my carb cam?

[GregAmy]

Followed your advice and read the whole thing last night. Fantastic reading. Thanks!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Thanks. I have to admire anyone that actually makes it through the thing; I'm not even sure I've read it all... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Sounds like it could be tuned to work with my carb cam?

Absolutely. That's the great part about tunable EFI: it'll work with *anything*. It worked great with my D-Jet cam, and it's working great with FAT's cam.

And if you change the cam - or injectors, or heads, or valves, or whatever - just re-tune to optimize. Hell, just drive it around and, as with Russia, it will tell YOU where to make changes (I tried plugging the USB cable into my racer's Dellorto-equipped engine, and it pretty made farting noises at me...) - GA

[Mark Henry]

James is right...and back to the OP.

Maybe and it sounds like it, the expectation was more and what was had was realistic and hence the title of the thread.


The compression ratio was built for reliability and the dyno reflects this.

I would just add...these cars now are entering a collector status and I'd predict that more folks will want "stockish" or original components like Mark is seeing.

Like it or not.


If you want over 150 HP or over that then get a six or a modern Porsche.

I totally get the stock engine and the 2.0 is a lot of fun, but personally if I had to live with stock HP I'd be a 911 or corvette guy.

I agree the run on Djets are a sign of the times, but my fall schedule is filling up with /6 conversions and engines so there's still just as many performance guys.
I personally have driven many modern Porsche's, I still like my little 914 over them.

For T4 I can and built reliable 160hp iron cylinder stroker engines, my '67 bug has a 180hp 2600cc T4 with nickies and SDS EFI.