Engine build suggestions, Engine suggestions Options

[brooks944]

Hi, great to see the world back! I have a 74 with a 1.8 that was rebuilt with a Webcam, 96mm cylinders an 40 webers. The car has never been right and rich to the point of washing the cylinders. The engine has been out, back in and still not right. My trusted shop thinks it’s a timing issue as well as another local shop who is well known as a 914 pro. I am pretty confident it’s not a carb issue, lots of jet and even other carbs have been tried.

My question is the shop with the car has a 2.0l GA motor that another customer gave him on some other work that’s been in storage. Instead of continuing to struggle with the 1.8, should we use the 2l (assuming it’s a good case, etc), my cylinders and cam to build a 2056? Should match the carbs, but look forward to your input and suggestions.

Thanks,
Rick

[930cabman]

Hi, great to see the world back! I have a 74 with a 1.8 that was rebuilt with a Webcam, 96mm cylinders an 40 webers. The car has never been right and rich to the point of washing the cylinders. The engine has been out, back in and still not right. My trusted shop thinks it’s a timing issue as well as another local shop who is well known as a 914 pro. I am pretty confident it’s not a carb issue, lots of jet and even other carbs have been tried.

My question is the shop with the car has a 2.0l GA motor that another customer gave him on some other work that’s been in storage. Instead of continuing to struggle with the 1.8, should we use the 2l (assuming it’s a good case, etc), my cylinders and cam to build a 2056? Should match the carbs, but look forward to your input and suggestions.

Thanks,
Rick

Could it be as simple as high fuel levels in the Weber's? running overly rich? or the wrong jetting. I also have a 1.8 with twin Webers and she runs fine.

[rfinegan]

If the case is good, one verse the other will not make a difference. The crank/rods will need to be changed from a 2.0l to get you to 2056.Any timing issues can be addressed, mechanical or electrical on the rebuild.The problem should not be inherited to the new build if build if performed correctly I hope the 96 pistons are correct for the crank/rods you plan to use?

[brooks944]

Thanks for replies. I think we have all fuel issues worked out. Fuel pump was changed to match the carbs. My preference is to use the 2l case and heads and the new pistons/cylinders I have along with the Webcam and Webers. All this assumes the 2l is good. Thoughts?

Rick

[rfinegan]

96 mm pistons have a different piston pin location for the 1.8 rod/crank, they different than the 2.0 rod pin location for the shorter stroke.....please be sure of what of have is needed and what you are trying to build.. You did not advise on what pistons and 96 cylinders were for want crank..
lets us know...

Thanks for replies. I think we have all fuel issues worked out. Fuel pump was changed to match the carbs. My preference is to use the 2l case and heads and the new pistons/cylinders I have along with the Webcam and Webers. All this assumes the 2l is good. Thoughts?

Rick

[brooks944]

The 96 pistons were for the 1.8. Looking a AA’s part numbers they are different for the 1.8 and 2L. So would you suggest using the crank and rods from the 2L with the 1.8 case, pistons, etc.?

Appreciate your input!
Thanks,
Rick

[GregAmy]

I'm trying to figure out if you're looking for repair/setup advice, or if you're just looking for support to justify a 2L upgrade to your wife.

Hey, I'm good with it either way, just not clear what you're asking for, mostly because I'm pretty confused how a rich mixture is a "timing issue" but not involving the system that's sending too much fuel into your engine...and how building a 2L engine is going to resolve that.

(Just tell her we all said it was OK. In fact, invoke "safety" and tell her we said it was safer. Even better, "we'll save money in the long run, honey!" It would not be the first time one of us has done that, you know...) - GA

[rfinegan]

piston matches up to the crank and rods combo, the case are the "same" and interchange with only a few design changes inside. SO, It sounds like new pistons are needed if you use a 2.0 crank and 2.0 rods for the 2056 build the 1.8 pistons will not work

[JamesM]

I'm trying to figure out if you're looking for repair/setup advice, or if you're just looking for support to justify a 2L upgrade to your wife.

Hey, I'm good with it either way, just not clear what you're asking for, mostly because I'm pretty confused how a rich mixture is a "timing issue" but not involving the system that's sending too much fuel into your engine...and how building a 2L engine is going to resolve that.

(Just tell her we all said it was OK. In fact, invoke "safety" and tell her we said it was safer. Even better, "we'll save money in the long run, honey!" It would not be the first time one of us has done that, you know...) - GA

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol-2.gif)


To be honest im a littlle lost on the ask here as well, and on how cylinder washing could be anything other than to much fuel, and how going to a GA 2.0 (1976cc) from a 1.8 with 96mm barrels (1911cc) would change that?


The 2.0 crank gets you a bit more stroke but uses a different set of rods and pistons than the 1.8 so if you went with the 2.0 you would either need to use the pistons it currently has for a 1976cc or buy a new set of 96mm pistons that work with the 2.0 stroke. 2.0 heads also produce more power but are also more damage prone. You didnt mention anything about the state of the heads on your 1.8 but if they have already been gone through, moving to the 2.0 heads (if you can even find someone to rebuild them) is just more money.

but again, totally lost on what your goals are here.

[Jack Standz]

The car has never been right and rich to the point of washing the cylinders.

My trusted shop thinks it’s a timing issue as well as another local shop who is well known as a 914 pro.

I think we have all fuel issues worked out. Fuel pump was changed to match the carbs.
Thoughts?

Sorry, don't trust your shop. Why would they suspect a rebuilt 1.8 motor with carburetors that has fuel issues has a "timing issue"? (Of course the motor could have fuel issues AND timing issues. Or maybe their troubleshooting is way off and you have compression issues or something else).

If it's an ignition timing issue, why can't they adjust the timing properly? If it's a mechanical timing issue, why did they put it together wrong or why can't they fix it?

You might seriously think about going someplace else. And since you swapped out the fuel pump, what pump and fuel pressure were you running? (One guess is that you had too much fuel pressure that was overcoming the needle/seat & was flooding the motor with fuel). So, put a proper fuel pump for carburetors on and run a fuel pressure regulator with appropriate fuel pressure & let us know if that resolved the problem.

Best wishes for a successful fix!

[brooks944]

Thanks again for all the replies. I have a “faucet” type fuel pump as recommended by the original engine builder, who is a well known local and regional VW builder. Did not have a fuel pressure regulator so never knew what actual pressure was running.

From everyone’s input, it looks like I’ll be better off going with the 2l engine if it checks out, knowing that to get to the 2056 I’ll need to order new 96mm pistons, etc.

Looks like the cam that was in the 1.8l will work for the 2l, it’s a Webcam 152. If it won’t work, please let me know.

Rick

[Jack Standz]

Thanks again for all the replies. I have a “faucet” type fuel pump as recommended by the original engine builder, who is a well known local and regional VW builder. Did not have a fuel pressure regulator so never knew what actual pressure was running.

From everyone’s input, it looks like I’ll be better off going with the 2l engine if it checks out, knowing that to get to the 2056 I’ll need to order new 96mm pistons, etc.

Looks like the cam that was in the 1.8l will work for the 2l, it’s a Webcam 152. If it won’t work, please let me know.

Rick

First, why rebuild another motor/engine before you figure out why/if you need to? The 1.8 (or 1911 or whatever it is) motors are good motors when properly rebuilt and tuned. So, what is wrong with the 1.8? (Too high fuel pressure, bad compression, what? And if the 914 experts can't figure it out, why trust them to build another motor?)

Second, if the 1.8 motor is bad, why buy the 2.0 motor? You likely can rebuild the 1.8 into a 2056 with new parts for less than the cost of the 2.0 motor plus the new parts you'll still need. Maybe and only if the 2.0 heads are pristine, which is very unlikely. Don't know anyone that rebuilds them anymore.

BTW, still suggest running a fuel pressure regulator no matter which way you go.

[GregAmy]

...“faucet” type fuel pump...Did not have a fuel pressure regulator...

Which means the fuel pump was overpowering the float, gushing fuel into the carb(s) from the bowl.

Yes, I think you should build a new 2L engine. And put that same pump and carbs on it. And maybe check the ignition timing...?

Good luck, let us know how it goes!

GA

[Jack Standz]

[quote name='GregAmy' date='Dec 5 2022, 09:53 AM' post='3043104']
[quote]...

Yes, I think you should build a new 2L engine. And put that same pump and carbs on it. And maybe check the ignition timing...?

Good luck, let us know how it goes!

GA
[/quote]

Really? I guess it's easy spending other people's $$ (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif).

He says he has a rebuilt 1911 that he doesn't know why it isn't running right. How is a rebuilt 1971 (2.0 liter motor) meaningfully better? Especially if it's by the same folks who can't figure out what's wrong with the 1911 motor?

Can't see how this isn't just a big waste of $$ and time.

Before buying a used 2.0 motor in an unknown condition for how much $$? Buying parts and materials, paying for machine work, paying for assembling and installing in the car, etc. - - don't you think it makes sense to figure out what's wrong with the 1911?

[Superhawk996]

Might just be me but I took GregAmy’s response as sarcasm. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

So much (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) in the post. Build a “new” 2056 with a used cam? Build the 2056 with used 96mm cylinders that have been washed? Not much making sense here.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

For OP - I’d recommend spending the time to really understand what was wrong with your original engine. Timing is either right or it’s not. It can be measured. It is not something that has to be guessed at.

I don’t have much confidence in your local shop or “pro”. Too much part swapping and guessing going on.

If a 2056 is the end goal. Spend the time to familiarize yourself with the parts needed and by all means - run away from whoever was your last engine builder and this “trusted” shop that can’t diagnose what’s wrong.

[VaccaRabite]

There is a lot going on in this thread.

Your 1.8 isn't a 1.8. It is a built 1911 that is making more power (if it was built with ANY skill) then ANY stock 2.0. You have some seriously basic stuff to check that has to be addressed before considering going to a 2L engine making less power (like 20HP less) then the one you currently have.

1) Have you done a compression test yet - what are your numbers for all 4 cylinders. YOU CAN DO THIS, and you should because your mechanic is suspect and buying a boat with your car right now.
2) Do you know the compression ratio/deck height/or any of the build specs on the 1911? This is very handy, but not critical. It will help a good deal with choosing the right fuel and addressing cooling issues you may have.
3) USE A PRESSURE REGULTOR, set your pressure for 3PSI, watch your over fueling issues go away. Seriously, any mech that you not tell you to do this is not one I would trust.

Again, DO NOT get a stock 2L and install it or build it until you understand what you currently have. Even if you build the 2.0 into a 2056, you are likely to have the same power as the 1911, or under 10HP more - and you are going to spend $15K having a shop build it for you.

Do not even THINK about it until you have compression test results that you have done yourself. (spark plugs pulled out, engine warm, throttle wide open). If your compression test sucks then just do a top end rebuild on your current engine - which (if it needs anything) likely just needs to be honed and re-ringed due to your mechanic telling you not to use a pressure regulator.

Good luck!

Zach