Four vs Six, comparison questions Options

[Kostamojen]

Edited, after I read this thread: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?act=...f=2&t=24771&hl= So nevermind on the whole motor meister business (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/tongue.gif) (Someone needs to fix the search engine... Its not very, accurate to say the least)

$11,000 for a 250hp six?

[redshift]

do more searches here for Motor Monkey uhh... Meister.



M

[Kostamojen]

I thought it was a member. I tried searching for meister but nada (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/tongue.gif)

[IronHillRestorations]

QUOTE (trekkor @ Aug 17 2005, 05:08 PM)

Show me a 914 owner who went from FOUR to SIX and said, " Why did I make such a horrible mistake?" KT

Trekkor, you are stealing my material again... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

If we were all driving old Beetles, Jake's engine would probably be everyone's "ultimate engine" and we wouldn't be having this argument.

There aren't any other cars that offer the engine options that we have, so this thread can go on ad nauseum forever.

It's a matter of personal choice, and budget. A 911 engine is more expensive to fix, and you'll have at least $2500 of ancillary parts required to put one in a 914, which wouldn't be required with a big four.

The V8 thing could be the most HP option, but I never liked the idea of swapping good trunk space for radiator space. After all one of the best things about a 914 is two trunks, eh??

For lots of Porsche owners (with cars newer than 1970), the ONLY engine to have in your car is a flat six, and for lots of 914 owners having a flat six in the engine bay is a "holy grail" of sorts. For better or worse, I'm on this side of the fence. There's a reason Porsche continually developed the air cooled flat six for over thirty five years, it's a great engine!

Jake builds great engines too, and is still developing the type 4. This is cool too.

My spin on this never ending discussion is this: Once you get past a certain HP output, the type four engine isn't going to be cheaper than a known good used flat six (say a 3.2 Motronic engine). Yes it's going to cost you about half the cost of the engine to put it in your car, when the type 4 doesn't need all the extra spendy parts required for installation. A quality pro rebuild of the 3.2 is going to give you a coronary, but it can be done by a competent home mechanic (key word being competent). And you will never regret going the flat six route. However if you like smaller lighter high output four cylinders, then there isn't anything wrong with that either. Jake can build you one to match the output of your dreams, but it's not going to be cheap either.

Now lets get on to a real discussion like: What is the best color? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

[tat2dphreak]

Jake always ends up fighting for the type 4 because he's the only one any of us know that can squueeze SO MUCH reliable HP out of a TIV and make it look so easy... the guy could build a better type 4 blindfolded, with only a pair of pliers faster and better than most of us.
(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif)

IMO if 180hp is your mark, you can't go wrong with either choice... and 180-200hp in a car that only weighs 2000 pounds is just plain SICK anyway! 10-11 lbs/hp is pretty good, even by modern standards... hell, that is about the same hp-weight as an elise! and same-better than a boxter S...



(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

[ArtechnikA]

i'm really glad Jake is in this arena advancing the bar and keeping options available.

i'm not going to disparage anything he's done or can do.

but you kinda have to read the descriptions carefully. most of the really interesting engines contain a phrase like: "the head builder took 3 months to port them but they're amazing."

we are comparing custom hand-build engines with factory production-line engines. if i need a head for a 2,2 i can just go buy one.

plus or minus a little, there's a STOCK, off the shelf 6 available for whatever power level you want.

or you can get a "built" 6 with the same tradeoffs of time/money/HP/longevity as the "built" 4's - but with what's available in a stock 3,6 - just how much more do you want?

size for size, a 4 is going to produce more torque in the "useful, daily driver and AX" powerband than a 6 -- it's a piston area thing. so i don't claim that my preference for 6's is completely rational, and i certainly don't claim that there aren't 4's of equivalent displacement that can make as much power or be as fast (or faster) as any of the basically stock 6 cylinder engine cars i own.

i like 4's. i've owned a 914/4 and liked it. i like my '53 1500N even though it makes but about 65HP tops. these days, i prefer 6's. i'm not selling anything, and i'm happy with any informed, considered decision a 914 owner makes to keep the car on the road and providing driving enjoyment.

[johnmhudson111]

QUOTE (9146986 @ Aug 18 2005, 08:10 AM)

Now lets get on to a real discussion like: What is the best color? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Why SILVER of course, it is faster too but don't tell anyone (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/lol2.gif)

[Andyrew]

Let me put it this way...

There is nothing like the tq curve of a v8 on an autox course.

If I had to go 4 vs 6....

It would either be big 4 stroker turbo, or 3.6 turbo.

Theres no way anything over 10 to 1 power to weight will satisfy me after driving my car for as long as I have... lol...

[newto914s]

In term of longevaty, I was always under the impression their are only a hand full of places that still manufacture quality AM TIV parts. It becomes a lot more expensive to rebuild and maintane if the parts are no longer manufactured.
911s have such a huge following I would think their would always be an after mark for engine parts.
I'm sure I'm wrong though

[grantsfo]

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 18 2005, 05:56 AM)

Jake always ends up fighting for the type 4 because he's the only one any of us know that can squueeze SO MUCH reliable HP out of a TIV and make it look so easy... the guy could build a better type 4 blindfolded, with only a pair of pliers faster and better than most of us.   (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/pray.gif) IMO if 180hp is your mark, you can't go wrong with either choice...  and 180-200hp in a car that only weighs 2000 pounds is just plain SICK anyway! 10-11 lbs/hp is pretty good, even by modern standards... hell, that is about the same hp-weight as an elise! and same-better than a boxter S... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)

I guess thats the key point around this arguement. Reliability. Jake has more than once had some of these engines grenade once in customers cars. Granted there is always a valid reason why the engine malfunctions, but given the low numbers of engines he builds it concerns me.

I just dont see enough actual users of big T4's who do AX and track their cars vouching for these big expensive engines. Its usually Jake providing testimonials. That makes me suspect.

When you add to this mix that you are easily going to spend a minumum of $12K to $15K for a very basic 2.3 T4 once you do everything right and upwards of $20K if you go the route of a very large turnkey T4. It just doesnt make economic sense to me for a product that truly doesnt have a significant group of users who provide objective assessments to the products reliability.

Is there somone other than Jake who can tell me they have tracked and AX their big 4 and have 100,000 trouble free miles? Jake readily admits that there are a few unhappy customers who chose to build kits and did something wrong with fuel systems and damaged their engines due to running too lean.

I have a strong motivation to have a very active debate around this topic. I have been actively evaluating which option I will go with later this year. I'm on the 6 fence currently unless I see some more objective assessments of going with a big t4. I think the biggest mistake most make is that they assume a big t4 is a fairly simple bolt in option. While thats partially true you are garunteed to spend upwards of $5000 on fuel and header systems based on Jakes reccomendations. His horsepower claims are based on specific products. Obivously you can go cheaper routes, but your engine isnt going to make what Jake claims.

[johnmhudson111]

QUOTE (tat2dphreak @ Aug 18 2005, 08:56 AM)

IMO if 180hp is your mark, you can't go wrong with either choice... and 180-200hp in a car that only weighs 2000 pounds is just plain SICK anyway! 10-11 lbs/hp is pretty good, even by modern standards... hell, that is about the same hp-weight as an elise! and same-better than a boxter S...

I would have to agree with you that either choice is good, in fact if you can wait, the 4 has some real atvantages over the 6 upto about 180hp. Once you cross that line the 6 begins to make more sence, replacement parts for a 6 are plentiful where as the 4 requires more exotic materals and specialized labor.

In the future the answer to geting more than 180 hp out of a 4 maybe turbocharging it. Maybe that is the great equalizer in this debate. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/confused24.gif)

Either way you are going to end up with a car that is a heck of a lot of fun.

[redshift]

There are as many ancillary reasons for a /6, one of them is tradition/heritage. Most people who have driven Porsche to racing victories, did it with a /6. It probably has something to do with it.

I love the sound of a /6 at idle, and it only gets better.

In California, the adopted home state of Porsche, you can find basement prices on great enegines, that don't even exist as cores here. That has alot to do with decisions people make..


M

[Jake Raby]

I would say that 80% of those that have bought my kits have been able to achieve very similar resullts with the engine as I did when I assembled and tested it's "Base". The other 20% were guys that didn't follow directives, didn't take the time to do rocker geometry, fed the engine with improper carbs for the combo and etc. Those are the guys that lack detail and they are the ones that should have never even attempted the job.

I came up with the "Kits" 6 years ago when I refused to sell engine parts- only complete engines. I had a customer in Mexico city that wanted my engine but could not afford the labor and he asked if I could do all the work to the engine and instead of assembling it, box it up and let him assemble it.

So...I did it and prepped everything just like I would if we were going to assemble it. This included balancing, machining and mock up assembly to measure clearances and etc. He assembled the engine over the period of about a month and he was happy as hell- it still runs great today (just sold him another kit a few months ago)

See my kit is only as good as its assembly- Like anything else. I base the kit off of very simple and standardized base engines that I have built dozens of times and dynoed to optimization the same time and again. So this isn't a box of junk, its a fully designed, machined and proven engine that just not assembled. Doing this allows me to know all your internals and be able to specify the timing and jetting for the combo and even correct it for your elevation and atmosphere. This could not be done if I didn't have the blueprints for the kits.

So......... A "Type 4 Store" engine kit is not a "Raby Engine".... Those are twice the cost, have a year long wait and are custom built for the customer's needs.... No two are the same.

If someone buys an engine kit, follows my directives and outfits the engine with what it was specced out with the results should be very, very close to my test results- one customer made MORE power than the base engine did on my dyno during testing at the rear wheels ( I tested it at 155 @ the flywheel and he got 159 at the wheels!)

I have been putting together 100% complete engine kits recently since so many guys end up buying everytghing from me at once- none of these so far are for 914 applications though...... These "Turnkey kits" have every single part down to the ignition, spark plug wires, carbs and exhaust...... No real way to goof that up!

[Matt Monson]

QUOTE (redshift @ Aug 18 2005, 06:57 AM)

There are as many ancillary reasons for a /6, one of them is tradition/heritage. Most people who have driven Porsche to racing victories, did it with a /6. It probably has something to do with it.

I am really glad that you brought this up. This is one of the reasons I am going the 2.4l route that I mentioned earlier in the thread since the engine in the 916 was essentially a 2.4l S engine. I personally put more value on a car that is truer to something that came from the factory, even if it is a rare bird like the 916. Now, if I ever go to sell the car, the market value may not be greater, but as has been mentioned repeatedly in this thread, our build path is largely an expression of ourselves...

[URY914]

Enough of this, someone start a thread...

"P-car -6 or SBC V-8?"

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif)

[Jake Raby]

-4 or V-8 if you ask me.... If your gonna convert you may as well get 400 reliable ponies and a radiator!

Hell maybe I should come up with a kit to convert a damn Lycoming into a 914.... Now THATS a Flat SIX!!! 540 cubic inches worth!

Make some mods so it will have a usable RPM range in a vehicle (aircraft engines are done by 3600 RPM) and port the shit out of the heads and install a DTM on it....

I'm not kiddin!

[URY914]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 18 2005, 08:44 AM)

I'm not kiddin!

We know you're not! (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

Paul

[Jake Raby]

I have a 540 that I'd LOVE to install in my bus..... Just don't have time to do it...

The camshaft weighs 18 ounces and its hollow (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)

[URY914]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 18 2005, 09:09 AM)

The camshaft weighs 18 ounces and its hollow  ;)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif) I've thought of drilling out some of my bolts to save some weight.

Non-stressed bolts are very heavy.

P

[tat2dphreak]

QUOTE (URY914 @ Aug 18 2005, 12:18 PM)

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Aug 18 2005, 09:09 AM) The camshaft weighs 18 ounces and its hollow  ;) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/happy11.gif) I've thought of drilling out some of my bolts to save some weight. Not stressed bolts are very heavy. P

you can also shave the heads of the bolts down a .25 oz.... (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/wink.gif)