4 lug spacers, Yea, or nay Options

[URY914]

Blake,
That was much more than $.02 worth. The amount of risk you can manage in your life is up to all of us. Driving a 914 on the street is risky enough without have to worry about your bearings burning up, or did I tighten my wheel bolts or are my brakes going work at the next stop sign.

I never would think twice about running spacers.
I just live on the edge don't I? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

Paul

[Aaron Cox]

LOL....

(unstupid?)

In english that would be the word "smart" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif)

jk man....

so should I run spacers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

[SirAndy]

so should I run spacers? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

well, just as a guideline, those stupid guys at the porsche factory put 7" and 8" wheels on all 914-GT cars AND added a 1" spacer front/back ...
a lot of 911s came with spacers from the factory too.

but what did/do they know?
Andy

[Aaron Cox]

i think they evan ran up to 9's on the back!

[SirAndy]

i think they evan ran up to 9's on the back!

they left the factory on 7" and 8" unless you special orderd something else.
some guys went bigger later, you can fit 8" in the front and 9" in the back under GT flares.

the m471 kits came with 7" and 8" + the 1" spacers as well ...
Andy

[Aaron Cox]

good to know (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Blake]

well, i'd rather die stupid and had some fun than safe, (unstupid?) and boring ...

You, sir, have NO idea how much more fun it is to live than die. That is a shame and I hope you come to your senses soon. Seriously. I can also say I had the same sort of misguided ideas about life in my earlier years and it was dumb luck that I lived to learn better. Well, I still do dumb things but they are less, er...dumber than they used to be and my luck continues to hold. I've buried too many "exciting" friends to wish to earn that title by anything more than the sum of my accomplishments over a well-lived life of managed risks (Note: I did NOT say "no risks" and I certainly don't mean that to be interpreted as "no fun").

call me stupid (you're not the first one and probably not the last) but i just can't see how 1/2" spacers in front of a teener amount to:
" wheelchair" and "killing innocent people"  

Never called you stupid, dude, but your reply has me rethinking that position. I merely said that taking on risks without measuring the true consequences against the true benefits was stupid. You just seem delusional about both the risks and rewards; not stupid. Delusions are not necessarily a terminal condition. Stupidity most certainly is, as Darwin pointed out.

Please go back and re-read my posts. I assure you I clearly stated my "wheelchair" and "killing innocent people" statements were exclusively intended to counter your "a boring life without risks is not worth living" (paraphrase) argument; not the wheel bearing issue. I've known people who put themselves in wheelchairs or killed innocent people completely by accident doing things many people consider "fun" and "exciting" and certainly not obvious in terms of the incredible but rare consequences that caught up to them after enough opportunities. Ironically, many of these people were quite boring in personality and had to compensate with "exciting" behavior. BTW, I have yet to understand how wheel spacers are in any way exciting. Some day, we'll have to sit down over a beer and you can 'splain that to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

My official position remains thus: changing the track increases wear and tear on critical parts of your suspension. The only people who can tell you for certain that any change is safe would be engineers doing a proper analysis. Lacking that, you are simply guessing and taking a short-odds bet which is probably very safe but never 100%. Over time, a lot of short-odds bets add up to a long-odds proposition that you just can't win, so pick your bets carefully. In other words, if you do a lot of hack-mods, one of them will bite you in the long term. I sure hope it won't be a suspension hack, as those can cost you dearly.

I am not saying a 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 5, or even 10 inch spacer will cost anyone their life, nor will any reasonable change likely even cause them more than the headache of added maintenance. But, as I said, the FACT remains that there is a slim chance of failure and that failure is potentially life threatening. A million to one, perhaps, but worth reflecting on for half a second before making the decision. Hopefully, in that reflective moment, you consider what other mods might be more effective at accomplishing your goals. Almost always, you will find more rewarding and less risky solutions that are JUST AS MUCH FUN. Try it some time.

Finally, let me go on record as saying I may very well use wheel spacers/adapters in project cars in the future, should I find them advantageous in some way. That would not be a contradiction to anything I have said. I am a grown boy, just like you, and I merely make my choices with eyes wide open (unlike you, IMHO). We are, after all, talking about a very small risk (odds, not consequences). But I will say that I find the possibility of my doing so unlikely unless it is a side-effect of doing something else (e.g. necessitated by wider wheels).

whatever you're smoking, i want some,

I'll trade you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif)

[Blake]

The m471 kits came with 7" and 8" + the 1" spacers as well ...

Getting back on topic...were these wheels the same offset as the regular wheels? I ask because it is possible to use spacers to adapt higher offset wheels while maintaining the stock track. Still, I find it very odd that any OEM would use this approach. Even if increasing the track were acceptable (e.g. engineers signed off on it) then the more likely thing would be to cast wheels to the new specs. Was Porsche really that cheap?! Anyway, if indeed they simply widened the track by a given amount, then I would presume such a change was totally safe. This does not contradict anything I have said. I simply trust engineers (usually) more than guessers.

[krk]

Alrighty then.

Do we have data? You know -- things like "How many miles are the wheelbearings expected to last", and "what changes have been observed". I'm guessing that some of that will be hard to get, but perhaps someone out there has seen real data? Even racing data would be useful I would expect.

Here's my lonely datapoints wannabe's -- not to be confused with real datapoints -- but ya work with what 'cha got.(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

I drove a GT (or M471) configured 914 as a daily driver for over 5 years. During that time, the wheelbearings may have been replaced, but it would have been pretty early in my ownership. iirc, 6" and 8" wheels, with good quality tires and iirc 1" spacers. Was on the second set of tires when it left. I put probably 45K miles on it. It outhandled any of my current cars (930, stock bodied 914/6) by a goodly amount. I attribute that to the wider track, and the wider tires. I did not observe unusual bearing wear, but it may take more miles or more aggressive driving. (I would classify my driving style as "conservative/spirited", and most of those miles were South Bay commute miles)

I've had the 930 for 3 or 4 years -- it has spacers from the factory, but it also has different hubs (so I'm told) from stock -- in particular, the wheelbearings are apparently stronger, but then the 930 chassis has many "upgrades" (over standard 911 chassis parts) because of the horsepower -- so it's probably not too valid a data point for the current discussion.

The 914/6 has had it's front wheelbearings replaced in the first couple of weeks I owned it. I've not put enough miles on it to say that the wear pattern is different than first 914 tho. Just that wheel bearings fail and are replaced in the normal wear and tear of ownership.

Seems to me that many things could increase the load on the bearings -- better brakes , better compound tires, more horsepower, etc. Where does increasing the track by 1/2" or 1" fit into the scheme of wear?

How long do wheel bearing last on a race car? Are they changed as a matter of course? When changed, are they examined for wear? Are patterns noticed based on track or tire compound? Etc.

Oh, the "sport purposes" manual for the 911 and 914/6 has a short mention of "distance discs and wheel bolts". It's just a little short on explanation -- "To compensate different ofset depths of the rims, distance discs have to be used. The following index shows the required thickness of the distance discs when using different rims". 914/6 6" rim, front 21mm disc, 72mm wheel bolt. (same for rear). For 7" rim, front 27mm, rear 35mm, and 72/85 mm wheel bolts. But they don't identify the offset or model of the wheel (as near as I can see) and they don't mention actual car model either. Oh, and there is a parenthetical note at the bottom -- "From production May 1971 no distance discs for 7" and 9" rims are necessary" -- but it doesn't say for which car. If I were an expert on porsche wheels, which I'm not, I'd guess they changed models of wheels. Brilliant, eh?(IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

hth.

kim.

[Brad Roberts]

Here is how I sell myself on wheel spacers: I own a 30+ year old car. I had better check the car over every few months like I'm attending a autoX. Every once in awhile go out and check the wheel bearings.

The 914 Kim is talking about went another 50k miles before I replaced the right rear wheel bearing (not from failure it just wore out from miles).

The 930's do have different hubs. All they did was move the hub offset OUT on the stock bearings that a SC uses.

We are running about 3 inches worth of spacers on 100mm studs on the front of the tube frame car. This is EXTREME. But.. you know what... the car ran like this in 1996-97.. and ran again all last year and this year. I check the bearings and they are fine. It doesnt even have the different offset 930 hubs.

I personally think that Porsche used oversized bearings that can handle more load than we are giving them credit for. Granted the 914 weighs a lot less than a 911 or 930. This may contribute to the "life" of the bearings.. I dont know and dont care. It works.. and the factory thought it would work on ALL 930's/944Turbos'.. that my friends is a lot of cars.


B

[SirAndy]

You, sir, have NO idea how much more fun it is to live than die. That is a shame and I hope you come to your senses soon. Seriously. I can also say I had the same sort of misguided ideas about life in my earlier years and it was dumb luck that I lived to learn better. Well, I still do dumb things but they are less, er...dumber than they used to be and my luck continues to hold. I've buried too many "exciting" friends to wish to earn that title by anything more than the sum of my accomplishments over a well-lived life of managed risks (Note: I did NOT say "no risks" and I certainly don't mean that to be interpreted as "no fun").

kid,
you have NO IDEA what you're talking about.
i am, actually, amused ...

congratulations on your dumb "earlier years",
i'm glad you survived all those horrors to become a wise old man.

Andy

[ArtechnikA]

The m471 kits came with 7" and 8" + the 1" spacers as well ...

Getting back on topic...were these wheels the same offset as the regular wheels?

yes.

[SirAndy]

I personally think that Porsche used oversized bearings that can handle more load than we are giving them credit for.

exactly my point. no car (well, at least the german engineered ones) would even be ABLE to hit the road as a production car (read: non race car) without plenty of safety margins.
does anyone really think porsche would have used a wheel-bearing size that was bound to fail if you increased the load on it by just using a small spacer, different wheel (different offset) or wider tires?

the cars came with 165 tires originally. most people these days run 195 or 205.

205 - 165 = 40mm = 1.57" so, if we assume that was on a wheel that had the same relative offset than stock, that would be a whooping 0.79" wider track.

that is more than the 1/2" spacer in question !!!!

Andy

[Blake]

Good data and experience points Brand and krk. Thanks for providing actual information that can salvage this train wreck. I, for one, apologize for turning it into a pissing match, though it was never my intention.

From what krk quoted, it sounds like the stock wheels with the package in question used spacers to compensate for a higher-offset wheel; not to necessarily increase the track. However, with wider wheels it is often necessary to increase track merely to find clearance for the extra width, so that remains a possibility. Anyone know for sure?

From what Brad said, it does indeed sound like the bearings are stout enough for whatever you can through at them. That is great news and the first real 1st hand testimony yet offered.

So, lets take this from the "costs" side to the "benefits" side. Obviously many of you are believers in the benefits of a wider track. What are your data points or experiences? In my experience, most people give too much credit to widening the track because (1) the same gains could have been realized by other mods (e.g. lowering CG, lightening the car, etc) and (2) the widened track is accompanied (usually) by wider rims and tires, where the real gains are made. I should also add (3) widening the front track increases the scrub radius, so you "feel" an improvement in steering feedback (a smaller steering wheel, tighter steering box, or wider wheels would provide a similar effect) and (4) there is always a psychological effect from mods where you are likely to give them far too much credit. So, I guess I am asking for feedback from those who merely added spacers (not wider rims with less offset) and have lap times or some other data on the improved handling. Anything definitive? I would expect marginal gains, like a couple tenths on a track like VIR, but certainly not seconds...which is about what it would take to really make a difference on the street where driving at anything over 7/10th of the limit is really dumb.

[Blake]

205 - 165 = 40mm = 1.57" so, if we assume that was on a wheel that had the same relative offset than stock, that would be a whooping 0.79" wider track.

That is incorrect. If the offset is the same, the track is the same, irrespective of the wheel/tire width. Track is measured to the center of the wheel/tire.

[SirAndy]

From what krk quoted, it sounds like the stock wheels with the package in question used spacers to compensate for a higher-offset wheel; not to necessarily increase the track.

the GT and m471 wheels (7" and 8") had the same offset as the stock wheels.
don't mistake that with "backspacing".

meaning, the offset is measured from the wheel center line to the mounting surface.

- negative offset value (usually mm), mounting surface is "behind" centerline.
this is what you want if you want to widen your track.

- positive offset value (usually mm), mounting surface is "in front of" centerline.
this is what you want if you want keep (or decrease) your track.

in case of the wider porsche rims, additional width was gained on both sides,
inside as well as outside, effectivley widening the track with just the wheel.
in addition, they ran a 1" spacer, widening the track even further.

Andy

[SirAndy]

Track is measured to the center of the wheel/tire.

that is (good?) news to me!

having had my share of physics, i challange that definition ...
Andy

[JWest]

the GT and m471 wheels (7" and 8") had the same offset as the stock wheels.
don't mistake that with "backspacing".

You sure about that? I thought all early Fuchs had 112mm backspace (widened only on the outside so different offset) except for the 911R rears.

Track is defined as the measurement to the centerline of the tread.

[SirAndy]

Track is defined as the measurement to the centerline of the tread.

but if you do that, you completely ignore the physics !?! huh? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

that's nuts, who came up with that? (probably a german (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ) ...
Andy

[SirAndy]

You sure about that? I thought all early Fuchs had 112mm backspace (widened only on the outside so different offset) except for the 911R rears.

actually, i'm not sure.
i have seen both, same backspacing and different backspacing.

in this case, same backspacing would definately widen the track.
Andy