4 lug spacers, Yea, or nay Options

[SirAndy]

can you tell me whether race cars need more or less Ackerman than a street car and why?

and can you tell me what the word Ackerman actually means?

let's turn this around. i'll give YOU 10 bucks if you can!
Andy

[Brad Roberts]

This is all good stuff.

The problem I have with ALL the authors Blake made reference too... the books are all very old technology. Most of the Authors are dead as well as some of their thoughts.

I 100% agree that the steering becomes heavy. I also agree that we are stressing the steering linkage... but I also know that the steering linkage can hanlde 3 times the stress we are putting through it (tested the U joints/splines).

B

[Jeroen]

can you tell me whether race cars need more or less Ackerman than a street car and why?

and can you tell me what the word Ackerman actually means?

let's turn this around. i'll give YOU 10 bucks if you can!
Andy

Just give him a minute... he'll be back with another quote from either Puhn, Smith or Valkenburg (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

cheers,

Jeroen

[Blake]

so, YOU are a race car engineer?

Nope. Never claimed to be. I am an automotive journalist and a crew member on a professional race team. Nothing fancy but, at least on this subject, I know what I am talking about. Hell, at least I read the books! What do you do for a living, Andy? Is there a Barnes and Noble near you?

i do not claim mastery, but i do claim that your argument has significant flaw

You claim to know better than people who earn their living in race car engineering and you certainly think that I, a mere mortal, could never grasp the concepts you claim dispute that collected wisdom. Sorry, but those three guys have a thousand times more credibility with me than you could ever have (until you prove your stuff in racing and write books other race car engineers hold as sacred as the Bible). Your post count and admin status do not impress me and nothing you have said suggests I should reevaluate that position. I'm sure you are a cool guy, but this pissing match is just making you look foolish.

What flaws are to be found in advocating erring on the side of caution or even knowing the definition of one of the most basic automotive terms? This is not rocket science...it's far more important.

[Blake]

and can you tell me what the word Ackerman actually means?

let's turn this around. i'll give YOU 10 bucks if you can!

Nice try. I'll take your reply as a "No, I have no clue if or why a race car needs less Ackerman than a street car!"

The answer is simply that tire slip angles change the instant center of the turn, so that the front wheels need to be more parallel to each other to be geometrically correct. Also, the outside tire will assume a larger slip angle and do most of the steering, so too much Ackerman simply scrubs the inside tire across the track. Ackerman in determined by the angle of the steering arms off the hubs, relative to the centerline of the car. Like I said, first day stuff.

[onrails]

Don't insult me! Anyone that has read the posts
knows your stand on the spacers!{or lack there of}.
I know you are just talking about precautions &
"points to ponder".
but , I don't believe there is any threat. by the way,,,,,
none of those options are correct,
you are neither for nor against but you have
"one hell of an opinion".
I'm sorry you feel like you got "screwed in life"
but don't take it out on me!
let me know when you find out what a 914 is
all about.
signed,the idiot

[SirAndy]

What do you do for a living, Andy?

spending my wife's money ...

Your post count and admin status do not impress me

damm, and i thought for a second ....

You claim to know better than people who earn their living in race car engineering

nope, au contraire mon ami, i claim to know better than YOU on this particular matter. that's all ...

but this pissing match is just making you look foolish

a compliment i can give back to you wholeheartedly ...

This is not rocket science

i am glad you made this clear. i'm also glad you don't work for NASA ...

I am an automotive journalist

aha! now that explains a lot ...


are you the same Blake Qualley that runs (?) http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.com/ ???
i have this idea about a improved design for a Wankel Motor since high-school.
never got around to do anything with it.
interested in building a prototype?


Andy

[onrails]

it's ok, keep your 10$


lol (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif)

[SirAndy]

The answer is simply that tire slip angles change the instant center of the turn, so that the front wheels need to be more parallel to each other to be geometrically correct. Also, the outside tire will assume a larger slip angle and do most of the steering, so too much Ackerman simply scrubs the inside tire across the track. Ackerman in determined by the angle of the steering arms off the hubs, relative to the centerline of the car. Like I said, first day stuff.

Nice try.
no $$$ tho.
Trivia: did you know that the guys last name was "Ackerman" and that's why your "First Day Stuff" is called exactly that?


look at my question, stupid (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif)

i asked:
"can you tell me what the word Ackerman actually means"

as in, the meaning of the WORD Ackerman ...

[TheCabinetmaker]

No, this is not rocket science. It's fun!!! Its fast cars! It's good handling cars. It's excitement. It's pushing it to the limit, not 70%. It's living live to the edge. 100%. do it or get out of it.

10 seconds left,
Game over,
you lose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Blake]

The problem I have with ALL the authors Blake made reference too... the books are all very old technology. Most of the Authors are dead as well as some of their thoughts.

Old, but not outdated. These guys wrote the bibles of race car engineering and, like the Big Book, they are still in print and highly regarded as the fundamentals upon which the current crop race car engineers are educated. They are not out of date. If you believe that "less is more" is a theory based on technology, or that terms like "track" have changed in the last twenty years, I'd like to see the books or meet the people who say so.

I 100% agree that the steering becomes heavy. I also agree that we are stressing the steering linkage... but I also know that the steering linkage can hanlde 3 times the stress we are putting through it (tested the U joints/splines).

Well, again, where did I say it couldn't handle it? All I've said is be conservative if you are guessing but if the manufacturer did it (for street cars) then everything is cool. Nothing has changed since the first post, except my post count!

[Jeroen]

Man you are chasing your own tail...
It's pretty fun reading though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

cheers,

Jeroen

[Blake]

Nice try.
no $$$ tho.
Trivia: did you know that the guys last name was "Ackerman" and that's why your "First Day Stuff" is called exactly that?

look at my question, stupid  

i asked:
"can you tell me what the word Ackerman actually means"

as in, the meaning of the WORD Ackerman ...

I'm stupid because I explained the principle of Ackerman rather than tell you it was the name of the guy who...well, he didn't invent it..um, is the namesake of the effect? Your question was not so clear, btw. The MEANING of the word Ackerman is exactly as I described it. That it also happens to be a sir name is not important (and certainly not any big mystery). Hell, Rudolph Ackerman had nothing to do with it, though he filed a patent on behalf of the inventor, Mr. Lankensperger, in 1918.

[fiid]

Man - I love a good flame war. It's been so long.

I'm going to run spacers when I get flares.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/lol2.gif)

[SirAndy]

Old, but not outdated. These guys wrote the bibles of race car engineering and, like the Big Book, they are still in print and highly regarded as the fundamentals upon which the current crop race car engineers are educated. They are not out of date.

i gave up theoretical physics quite a while ago because i just couldn't see myself arguing with people for the rest of my life.
people who got all their knowledge out of old books and then simply stopped using their brains, rejecting any and all new ideas that were not based on writings found in their old books.
i was tiresome at best.

only a few people manage to walk the fine line between embracing new ideas and career suicide.
if you like the topic of Quantum Physics you'll enjoy the book "In Search of Schrodingers Cat" by
John Gribbin, one of the few people who managed to do just that ...

Andy

[SirAndy]

I'm stupid because I explained the principle of Ackerman rather than tell you it was the name of the guy who...well, he didn't invent it..um, is the namesake of the effect?

exactly! btw. the guys name was "Rudolph Ackermann" with 2 nnnnnn

Ackermann = the man in the field

field as in agricultural terms ...

missed your chance to get rich, sorry (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)
Andy

[Blake]

Man you are chasing your own tail...
It's pretty fun reading though

If you mean excruciatingly redundant, then I agree. I keep saying it and these geniuses keep pretending I'm saying something completely different!

Anyone, Puleeeeeze, show me where I said wheel spacers on 914s were going to kill you or necessarily create a problem other than increased bearing loads (a fact, btw)? Show me how I DIDN'T say "I take no position" and "I won't say 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2, 5, 10 inch spacers..." or "The only people who can tell you for certain that any change is safe would be engineers doing a proper analysis." and the hundred other comments to that effect. Since that time, people have pointed out that the factory apparently changed the offset for some cars, and I stated that is good enough for me. Case closed (for those particular offsets), as far as I'm concerned. Now, it's just a pissing match with people who have poor reading comprehension and a shaky understanding of the dynamics involved. Lucky me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

[SirAndy]

Hell, Rudolph Ackerman had nothing to do with it, though he filed a patent on behalf of the inventor, Mr. Lankensperger, in 1918.

actually, the system was patented in London by Rudolph Ackermann in 1817 ...

[SirAndy]

Now, it's just a pissing match with people who have poor reading comprehension and a shaky understanding of the dynamics involved.

i agree, but what about me? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif)

[Blake]

actually, the system was patented in London by Rudolph Ackermann in 1817 ...  

Yes, a typo. Thank you for illustrating my inneptitude. I bow humbly before you, oh wise one! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/pray.gif) Glad to see you can use the internet too, once you get enough keywords.