Another AA Horror Story Options

[Engman]

WWZD?

[jagalyn]

Last summer my girlfriend dropped her car off at Tires Plus to get her tires rotated and she ended up getting new tie rods and some other stuff, and all of a sudden they wanted like $450!
She pulled the crying helpless girl routine and got away with paying like $300, but it was still pretty un-cool.

I wonder if that is what this guy is doing. He's playing a pretty good victim role here. Airing this publicly to get AA to lower his bill. What makes me skeptical of this guy is he published this on both this site and the club site. It seems like he's trying to play this in the court of public opinion.

Like everything, there is two sides to the story. I'd wait to hear both sides before jumping on this guys bandwagon.

JMO.
j.

[Jake Raby]

Making estimates in the wporld of repairing 30+ year old cars and engines is a nightmare waiting to happen...

Variables are abundant and they cost everyone!

[ConeDodger]

Sorry, but I don't buy into the "buyer/customer beware" or "you'll know better next time" disclaimer by those in the business. Any REPUTABLE shop will treat their customers ethically and communicate with them to where BOTH parties are clear on the terms and conditions, or extra work required WHEN required. A reputable business will step forward and make clear to the customer the conditions by which the scope of the work be addressed, rather than defer the questioning to the customer. Keep in mind, the customer is not normally the expert, so the business has the fundamental responsibility of advising them thoroughly (and not simply look at it as a cash opportunity). Conduct you business otherwise, and your reputation and growth will suffer. Rant over.........

Andys

Right.... I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that statement. The problem here is that AA has not been heard from so we don't know what AA did or did not tell Conrad.

This is not the place to solve this problem. It is too easy to hurt a mans business by simply giving only your side. I am dissapointed that we are seeing this here on this forum. I have said this before and I will say it again, until your negotiation is at a standstill and you cannot accept the result offered you have no business throwing dirt on a mans reputation. It sounds to me like Conrad hasn't even tried to work this out with George and AA before coming here with this.

I would hope that Conrad would delete the post and take it to AA and George directly.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

(IMG:http://www.autoatlanta.com/rustoration/1.jpg)

Here is Mr. Zieglers note that accompanied the car. Please note that Konrad says "needs to be rotated and brought back into running condition with care"

here is our repair order (excuse the messy hand written example we are so far behind in the repair department that we are not using our computer generated invoices! (also for you scrutinizers, the 12 oil is special 80/90 and by the pint (not engine oil!!!!)


(IMG:http://www.autoatlanta.com/rustoration/2.jpg)

Here is Sean's version of the story, along with my interjections:

To preface Sean and Dan's reply, Konrad has a very nice 1971 willow green 914 that is very straight rustfree and a great candidate for a full restoration. We probably love it more than he does!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This issue should have been a non issue as there was some communication breakdown somewhere, and we can only tell it as it is. As we all know 914s these days need more restoration than repair so it is not a simple thing to tell someone: "Yes water pump replacement on your 2003 Ford is 169.53 parts and labor" Every repair must be taken on its own case by case basis and when one has a car towed in and inoperable, and wants to make it operable, the repair shop must analyze the scope of the work, but more importantly address the core issues one by one a penny at a time until able to make the vehicle run, and then hone in on the specifics to make the vehicle operate reliably. Konrad's car was the typical case, a 35 year old 914 that we had not seen before and that had not been running in awhile, had not been serviced properly in the past, and that the customer had given up on making it run, and finally had it towed to a place that would take the time and patience to bring it back from the grave (so to speak)
Konrad's dad first called me saying that his son had tried to work on his car, could not get it running and really did not know what he was doing, and could we help. The current problem was a bad rocker arm stud, and he asked how much it would cost to tap and replace it. I explained over the phone that if we could access it from the outside, around 400 Including parts and revalve adjust, which would cover us removing the trailing arm and dropping down the engine to access.
The car showed up here several days following and alas when the driver dropped it the drivers window immediately fell down! This was the signal of things to come. Below is the narrative of Sean and Dan (I will interject if appropriate):

"Konrad Ziegler brought his car to us and told us he had not driven the car in six months but it had been in great driving order with the exception of a nasty engine noise.
He explained that he knew the car had a broken rocker stud. That being the case George told Konrad that if the engine was to stay in the car the bill could be as little as $400.00. We were surprised to find that when we went to push the car into the shop it was stuck in second gear because the bushings were broken, missing, and worn...not to mention that the shift console, first reverse bias had broken free and the plate had to be rewelded (I must say that we did not charge for this operation on his bill)
After the six of us pushed the car in and pulled the valve cover we could see that Mr. Z had attempted to drill out the stud but to no avail. This made what could have been a very simple procedure, vastly more complicated. Upon closer inspection, we found the cause of the problem: the rocker assemblies were all being held in place with lock washers and nyloc nuts of the wrong thread pitch, and the rocker assemblies were actually installed out of sequence, intakes on exhaust and vice versa. We replaced, retapped, and readjusted all.
Because of the complications, the engine had to be pulled and of course the cost naturally went up. This had been previously established as a possibility with Konrad's dad before the car was dropped off and the line of communication here, seemed to be direct.
While the engine was out we found that a large pair of needle nosed pliers had been in the fan for quite some time (probably some of the noise that Mr Ziegler had described). this of course had broken about half of the cooling fan blades. We then added the cost of a used fan to a list being compiled for round two.
The round two list consisted of cv axle repack, front wheel bearings (about to fall off the car) a leaking left front caliper, shifter bushings, the previously mentioned cooling fan, the alternator belt, the muffler bracket (missing) and the engine mounts. (Mr Z had included two rear 911 mounts to install for the transmission mounts, but we had previously determined that they were ok and he did not need them, but they could be used to replace the engine mounts as one was indeed broken)
At this time Mr Z. was called and told what had been done what he had spent and what was needed to get the car into a drivable state "with care" as stated in his letter. As I understand, the conversation between George and Konrad outlined that Mr. Z didn't have a lot of money and was pushing his budget but understood that the work needed to be done and was willing to spend a "little more." "


Let me (George) interject here. I had a discussion with Konrad here and informed him that we would have to spend about 2500 here to repair all of these things and he acknowleged that figure. I also told him that we of course could spend a lot more including a thorough major service to make the car reliable. He at that time questioned why the cv joints needed to be repacked as he had a fairly recent receipt showing that they had been replaced. My mistake is that I found out when Dan had removed cleaned and examined the cv joints that they were indeed WORN OUT and needed immediate replacement to get the car operable. I took it upon myself to authorize Dan to replace the axles with rebuilt ones as repacking was hopeless. I called Konrad to come out and see the axles for himself which he did, and he saw and acknowledged the rest of the work approved on the phone to get the car operable.
I think that in Konrad's own words, "George then gave me a call to say that everything was finished but had seen some problem areas that needed to be addressed. George told me that it would take some "tweeks" to get it in perfect running order, and it should cost 2000 to do everything. I thought that he meant 2000 dollars inclusive of the engine work, but none the less I told him "do what you need to get it running, but 2000 is way out of my price range."

To return to Sean and Dan's narrative:

"Mr Ziegler even came by once the engine was back in the car and Dan explained in great detail what had been done and what he was doing.
That was Friday. On Monday, Mr. Z. was called and given his total of 3175.52 A total that he disputed. So I went over every part and every hour of labor with him after faxing him a copy of the work order.
Now convinced of the total he argued that he had not agreed to the amount of work that was done and said he had only agreed to 2000.00 worth of work.
He then made it a point to tell me he was an attorney and could "make things very rough for me". I also told Konrad that we would be happy to remove parts from his car (specifically the previously unapproved rebuilt cv axles plus any other parts GH) until we could reach a predetermined budget starting with the cvs. which made up a large portion of the post estimate work. At this time he suggested that I "eat" the $3000.00 plus bill and simply buy the car from him for $15,000.00 (fifteen thousand dollars). As I hate to defame someone's character, Mr Ziegler seemed to me to be overly aggressive and quite dishonest."

(these are Sean's observations and not mine!!!!!!!!!! GH)

" I have abbreviated the extent and depth of the discussion and negotiation. "The simple fact that he said the car was driving just fine six months ago tells me that he knew he was setting us up to get work done for free. In the end he succeeded, I had to do a lot of other "tweeking" to get the car to run. I told him among other things, that I had done my best to adjust the shift rod to regain command of all of the gears, but first gear was entirely gone! He told me this was a fact he had been well aware of and had failed to mention.
The final thing that I think is at the crux of this dispute is that Mr, Ziegler produced a repair work order from another shop showing that they had replaced the cv joints and added one quart of ANTIFREEZE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

(wouldn't you too be leery about taking your car to the next repair shop after seeing a bill like this????? GH)

Thank you for the narrative Sean. Dan, Sean, and Konrad, are all young guys and often times misunderstanding leads to tempers getting out of hand about something that could be easily be solved. I admire all of our young staff here for ALWAYS remaining cool headed and everyone here treats every customer with respect and courtesy. They will continue to do so, and one can always be assured of a quality repair/restoration here for a very fair price, and we will tell you financially always what you are getting yourself into with these old cars!!!!!!!!

And finally here is a list of other things we noted about this 914


EN 914 ZIEGLER
· Front tie rods and ball joints need to be replaced
· Front drivers caliper leaking (we rebuilt)
· Lug nuts are very loose (we tighened!)
· Rack and pinion cover bent
· Heater control hose is off (we reinstalled)
· Passenger Rocker panel cracked
· Broken engine mounts (we replaced)
· Fuel pump boot missing, gas leaking at injector line (we replaced the injector line
· Shift rod boots missing, shift bushings are bad, needs adjustment (we replaced the bushings and rewelded the shifter base where it was broken
· Rear muffler bracket missing (we replaced)
· Swing arm is loose
· Clutch tube cracked at the firewall and probably at the front, no clutch cable boot installed
· Reverse light switch boot missing
· Starter is loose (we tightened)
· E-brake cable boots missing/ stuck cables and handle (does not work!) has bolts installed instead of pins at the calipers
· Some passenger engine shelf rust
· Shifter bushing “at firewall” cracked in half (we replaced
· Heater hose clamps missing
· CV joints dry, may need replacing were totally shot! (We replaced with rebuilt units)
· Low transmission fluid (we changed the fluid)
· Dash pad shrunk/ cracked dash
· Missing seat belt bolt covers (plastic)
· Seat rails in need of lubrication
· Engine lid cable is missing the cable release back pad plastic washer
· Missing drivers door panel arm rest / pocket (off)
· Battery dead (we charged and checked the charging system
· Back pad light wiring is not making good connection
· Latches in need of lubrication
· Engine lid drain pan off
· 914 badges missing backing
· Targa top latches (in trunk) broken (4 of 4)
· Both trunk (rear) seals cracked and brittle
· Cracked drivers tailligh
· Needs air filter cleanup and relubrication water in airbox (needs cleaned)
· Engine lid seal missing
· Relay board cover cracked
· Bad trunk hinge cup repair (passenger is cracked
· Cracked/ripped intake boot (we repaired as the new part is NLA)


We have been in business now for over 29 years and pride ourselves in knowing our way around a 914. We are not out to take advantage of anyone. Konrad is welcome back any time to continue his restoration and get the other things done as his budget allows. All of our work is fully guaranteed and we stand behing it. We will leave no one out in the cold who owns a 914

[Johny Blackstain]

Last summer my girlfriend dropped her car off at Tires Plus to get her tires rotated and she ended up getting new tie rods and some other stuff, and all of a sudden they wanted like $450!
She pulled the crying helpless girl routine and got away with paying like $300, but it was still pretty un-cool.

I wonder if that is what this guy is doing. He's playing a pretty good victim role here. Airing this publicly to get AA to lower his bill. What makes me skeptical of this guy is he published this on both this site and the club site. It seems like he's trying to play this in the court of public opinion.

Like everything, there is two sides to the story. I'd wait to hear both sides before jumping on this guys bandwagon.

JMO.
j.

I too was curious about this post & PMd' him regarding living in Wisconsin & going to Atlanta to rotate tires? Also, who charges $300 to rotate tires? He replied that this happened in Wisconsin, not AA. I suggested he edit... too late. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

Ah, Tires Plus. Thanks.

This post has been edited by Johny Blackstain: Feb 26 2007, 04:40 PM

[ConeDodger]

GREEN 914 ZIEGLER
• Front tie rod ball joints replaced
• Front drivers caliper leaking
• Lug nuts are very loose
• Rack and pinion cover bent
• Heater control hose is off
• Pass. Rocker panel cracked
• Broken engine mounts
• Fuel pump boot missing, gas leaking
• Shift rod boots missing, bearings are bad, needs adjustment
• Rear muffler bracket missing
• Swing arm is loose
• Clutch tube cracked, no shift cover boot
• Reverse light switch boot missing
• Starter is loose
• E-brake cable boots missing/ stuck cables and handle/ has pins instead of bolts
• Some pass. Shelf rust
• Cracked “at firewall” shifter bearing
• Heater hose clamps missing
• CV joints dry, may need replacing
• Low transmission fluid
• Dash pad shrunk/ cracked dash
• Missing seat belt bolt covers (plastic)
• Seat rails in need of lubrication/ Pass. Seat stuck
• Engine lid cable is missing/ missing back pad plastic washer
• Missing drivers door panel arm rest / pocket (off)
• Battery dead
• Back pad light wiring / intermediate function
• Latches in need of lubrication
• Engine lid drain pan off
• 914 badges missing backing
• Targa top latches (in trunk) broken (4 of 4)
• Both trunk (rear) seals cracked and brittle
• Cracked drivers taillight
• Missing firewall back pad/ engine insulator pad
• Needs air filter/ water in airbox (needs cleaned)
• Engine lid seal missing
• Relay board cover cracked
• Bad trunk hinge cup repair (passenger is cracked)
• Fuel pump is leaking
• Cracked/ripped intake line

(IMG:http://www.autoatlanta.com/rustoration/1.jpg)
(IMG:http://www.autoatlanta.com/rustoration/2.jpg)

That pretty much says it. Conrad's signature on the work authorization. Like I said. This shouldn't have happened.

[StratPlayer]

That pretty much says it. Conrad's signature on the work authorization. Like I said. This shouldn't have happened.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif)

[jagalyn]

AA just ran well in excess of $1,000 over budget on my 914. I dont dispute the necessity of the work or the pricing of the work. However, they went way too far when I told them to what my budget was. The official company line is this was a "misunderstanding".
In all candor, Shon and Daniel in the shop were great to work with. Shon got put in the middle between George and I when George suddenly dropped the problem on his lap.
AA fooled me once on bad customer service. Now they fooled me twice. Shame on me for trusting them. Never again!
To keep a potential flame war off the site, PM me if you're interested in the story.
Konrad

The title of this thread gives away the intent that this person wants to inflict. He says in his first post "I don't dispute the necessity of the work or the pricing of the work" then he says in a later post "I told them do what you need to get it running" and then signs the authorization on the AA slip and has the gall to say he doesn't want this to become a flame war... Isn't the title of this thread "flaming". He is being irresponsible and at the very least should change the title of this thread.

I would bet AA has a whole different version of events...

j.

[ChrisPaegelow]

Last summer my girlfriend dropped her car off at Tires Plus to get her tires rotated and she ended up getting new tie rods and some other stuff, and all of a sudden they wanted like $450!
She pulled the crying helpless girl routine and got away with paying like $300, but it was still pretty un-cool.

I wonder if that is what this guy is doing. He's playing a pretty good victim role here. Airing this publicly to get AA to lower his bill. What makes me skeptical of this guy is he published this on both this site and the club site. It seems like he's trying to play this in the court of public opinion.

Like everything, there is two sides to the story. I'd wait to hear both sides before jumping on this guys bandwagon.

JMO.
j.

I too was curious about this post & PMd' him regarding living in Wisconsin & going to Atlanta to rotate tires? Also, who charges $300 to rotate tires? He replied that this happened in Wisconsin, not AA. I suggested he edit... too late. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

Ah, Tires Plus. Still, $300 just to rotate?

NO DUDE!!! They charged her $300 because they also gave her new tie rods and some other parts that she maybe needed, maybe didn't, I don't know. The point was that they did more than was agreed upon without contacting her and then she had to pay for it. This has nothing to do with Auto Atlanta or the original post, beside the fact that it was a similar situation. This was at Tires Plus in West Bend, WI. My girlfriend does not drive to Georgia to have her tires rotated.

[URY914]

You need to delete this crap about your girlfriend's car. This is begining to sound like last weeks's Anna Nicole Smith's trial. This story doesn't need any added drama. Try to stay on topic here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)

Last summer my girlfriend dropped her car off at Tires Plus to get her tires rotated and she ended up getting new tie rods and some other stuff, and all of a sudden they wanted like $450!
She pulled the crying helpless girl routine and got away with paying like $300, but it was still pretty un-cool.

I wonder if that is what this guy is doing. He's playing a pretty good victim role here. Airing this publicly to get AA to lower his bill. What makes me skeptical of this guy is he published this on both this site and the club site. It seems like he's trying to play this in the court of public opinion.

Like everything, there is two sides to the story. I'd wait to hear both sides before jumping on this guys bandwagon.

JMO.
j.

I too was curious about this post & PMd' him regarding living in Wisconsin & going to Atlanta to rotate tires? Also, who charges $300 to rotate tires? He replied that this happened in Wisconsin, not AA. I suggested he edit... too late. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

Ah, Tires Plus. Still, $300 just to rotate?

NO DUDE!!! They charged her $300 because they also gave her new tie rods and some other parts that she maybe needed, maybe didn't, I don't know. The point was that they did more than was agreed upon without contacting her and then she had to pay for it. This has nothing to do with Auto Atlanta or the original post, beside the fact that it was a similar situation. This was at Tires Plus in West Bend, WI. My girlfriend does not drive to Georgia to have her tires rotated.

[cooltimes]

Full edit.
Changed my opinion and delete it fully.
I am entitled to make a mistake in my POV sometimes. I did.

After reading the repair bill and statement in entirety, I edit and add this.

When I see the bills for the parts and repairs, I do wonder why it was so expensive for what was done from the hand written note. Basically I did not see anything that said ok from Konrad to do all the other things that were done.

While my opinion about the charges the customer will have to pay to get his 914 back is just one person's opinion, I think the end results were gouging and can't really believe there is a line of customer's waiting to get , what ever that dirty word is, some will have to sub in here.

I always tell it like I see it. Doesn't mean I am right or wrong. It just reflects that there are some things you took as truth and then look again and see it wasn't necessarily truth on the later POV. There is truth we always need to see even if it means looking again and admit being wrong.

[Heeltoe914]

Making estimates in the wporld of repairing 30+ year old cars and engines is a nightmare waiting to happen...

Variables are abundant and they cost everyone!

well said Jake. I agree 100%

[Heeltoe914]

To the Dr at AA let me be the first to say I am Sorry that you have to go though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) like this. I as you love the 914 and all the people that support it. Your efforts to give the 914 owners a source for parts and information is very much appreciated by many I am sure you know that.
The fact that you have been here on this board to help other keep there cars going with your schedule show your concerns within the community.

[dr914@autoatlanta.com]

To the Dr at AA let me be the first to say I am Sorry that you have to go though (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) like this. I as you love the 914 and all the people that support it. Your efforts to give the 914 owners a source for parts and information is very much appreciated by many I am sure you know that.
The fact that you have been here on this board to help other keep there cars going with your schedule show your concerns within the community.

Wow I am honored and flattered by your post. Thank you very much.

[URY914]

Just a couple of thoughts

There is a HUGE difference between someone working on thier own car, or friend's car's as a part time gig, compared to a business like AA. The Dr. and crew do this for a living, and the prices they charge reflect, insurance, taxes, overhead, profit, etc. If you want it done for less, do it yourself.

Seems to be two things going on here: 1) if the was properly authorized and 2) the value of the work.

And it is a shame that this was made public. Sorta reminds me of a paint job last year.

Konrad are you really a lawyer?

[firstknight13]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) am i reading this right?? konrad is a lawyer!! if so HE already knows he signed off on the work!! if that is the case then he doesn't have a leg to stand on!!! i'm a contractor; and as a professional when i'm hired by you on some jobs WE throw in little things for free. when a customer says DO it that is exactly what they get .. if i see something that needs to be addressed i do it.. i see this as a way for konrad to try to get a better deal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/mad.gif) ....... 2500 is NOTHING on a 30+ year old car...just ASK anyone here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! george is right on this matter as I SEE it... so THIS time AA wins ......... NEXT CASE (IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif)

[boxstr]

If you have a dispute with someone who frequents this or any other 914 website.Then why do you not try to work it out with them on a one to one basis. I don't bring my problems that I have with a customer here. What is it going to solve. It is going to make both parties concerned look foolish and immature.
It is not the right place to air these greivances. It never will be. Learn from the mistakes of others.
CCLIN914NATION

[Johny Blackstain]

If you have a dispute with someone who frequents this or any other 914 website.Then why do you not try to work it out with them on a one to one basis. I don't bring my problems that I have with a customer here. What is it going to solve. It is going to make both parties concerned look foolish and immature.
It is not the right place to air these greivances. It never will be. Learn from the mistakes of others.
CCLIN914NATION

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/agree.gif) Here here! Bravo & very well said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/thumb3d.gif)
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool_shades.gif)

[Crazyhippy]

I see a HUGE difference between making a car that hasn't run in 6 months running, and starting a restoration. I suppose AA is more of a resto house than a repair house, so Konrad should have known better, but this is BS. The Paperwork w/ Konrads signature says "make the motor run" never mentions CV's, FRT wheel bearings, brake caliper leak, cooling fan, trans fluid, shifter bushings.....

According to the paperwork, AA fucked up big time. What we dont know is what was ACTUALLY said on the phone.

AA doesn't have the best track record here, but Konrad posting this shows his intentions as being less than informative... Settle this the old fashioned way.... 6 shooters @ high noon!

BJH