Heat exchangers for a six, Who makes the best? |
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Heat exchangers for a six, Who makes the best? |
PeeGreen 914 |
Oct 28 2008, 02:01 PM
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#41
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Just when you think you're done...wait, there is more..lol Group: Members Posts: 10,219 Joined: 21-September 06 From: Seattle, WA... actually Everett Member No.: 6,884 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
It looks like they use the same headers as Triad west. I wonder if I could talk Dave into doing something like this only having the exchangers go down the headers further. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif)
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IronHillRestorations |
Oct 28 2008, 02:22 PM
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#42
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I. I. R. C. Group: Members Posts: 6,759 Joined: 18-March 03 From: West TN Member No.: 439 Region Association: None |
These came up in a thread about a year ago, and I sent them an email asking if there were any welds inside the heater shells, to which they said "yes, but we haven't had a problem". Sorry, wrong answer. Porsche abandoned any heat exchanger with welds inside the heater shells back in the 60's when a few people died.
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iamchappy |
Oct 28 2008, 02:27 PM
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#43
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It all happens so fast! Group: Members Posts: 4,893 Joined: 5-November 03 From: minnetonka, mn Member No.: 1,315 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
I would think a few well placed holes drilled into them could solve that problem.
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number6 |
Oct 28 2008, 03:01 PM
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#44
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Member Group: Members Posts: 352 Joined: 14-September 08 From: portland, or Member No.: 9,546 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
A follow-up response:
Yes we can make them in which ever size you wish but the 1.625 will restrict the performance once you have super charged. The 1.75 will be OK for the 3.2 as that is the size we make them for the 3.2 911. I guess we could make them in 321 but 3o4 is just as good these days as the arefazing 321 out and improving 304. We have real trouble getting 321. Ian |
Eric_Shea |
Oct 28 2008, 03:29 PM
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#45
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,289 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Andy,
Whay I think Perry is referring to is having a weld on the pipe which resides inside the shells... not having the shells welded to the pipe. If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take. Mr. Al; why not find some factory HE's and simply have them fixed. A decent welder can patch the shells and you'll be good to go? They can be had for $6-700 but they'll need work. Pipes are excellent and they're a perfect fit. Paint them with the POR-20 Manifold Grey and you'll be good to go for another 20+ years. |
Lavanaut |
Oct 28 2008, 04:59 PM
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#46
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Hungry Mind : Thirsty Gullet Group: Members Posts: 916 Joined: 20-June 06 From: Bend, OR Member No.: 6,265 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take. Soooo...what exactly is the danger? Noxious fumes from the exposed weld, or...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) |
Root_Werks |
Oct 28 2008, 05:03 PM
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#47
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Village Idiot Group: Members Posts: 8,424 Joined: 25-May 04 From: About 5NM from Canada Member No.: 2,105 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
If there is a weld that is contained within that fresh air shell, the risk of death has just multiplied expodentially beyond one that I would take. Soooo...what exactly is the danger? Noxious fumes from the exposed weld, or...? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) Dis-similar metals, holes get corroded into the pipes and fumes get ported directly to you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/huh.gif) |
number6 |
Oct 28 2008, 05:03 PM
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#48
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Member Group: Members Posts: 352 Joined: 14-September 08 From: portland, or Member No.: 9,546 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
I have the stock HE's but have found that they dont work all that great with the turbo. Chappy, what is the OD of the stock HEs? How is the smaller pipe affecting your turbo setup? Is it insufficient at high boost, or any boost level? Do you think the stock HEs would be ok for a NA 3.2? If so, and you ever decide to sell yours, please keep me in mind! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) -duc |
iamchappy |
Oct 28 2008, 05:16 PM
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#49
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It all happens so fast! Group: Members Posts: 4,893 Joined: 5-November 03 From: minnetonka, mn Member No.: 1,315 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
Stock HE's will work with the 3.2 ok, i know there are a few on the board with this setup.
I think the stock pipes are 1 1/2, i have good low end grunt with the stock HE's but the turbo lag is horrible. With my headers i am building boost at 2800 rpms, and with the stock HE's around 4000, it hits hard and is still very strong maybe even more so than the headers up to 6400 rpms which is surprising to me. |
number6 |
Oct 29 2008, 03:47 AM
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#50
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Member Group: Members Posts: 352 Joined: 14-September 08 From: portland, or Member No.: 9,546 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
From Hayward & Scott, in response to my inquiry about welds inside the heat shells, as well as about heating performance:
They would have a weld where 2 bends are so close together that they can't be made in one but the join is purged when welded so in other words you get a nice neat strong weld on the inside as well as the outside .The heat from the exchangers work extremely well as they are basically the same size as we would put on a 911 3.2 ( i have them on mind and they are very hot )and get very hot. If you look on a 993 they are also quite small and work extremely well. Hope this helps Ian |
Eric_Shea |
Oct 29 2008, 08:29 AM
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#51
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PMB Performance Group: Admin Posts: 19,289 Joined: 3-September 03 From: Salt Lake City, UT Member No.: 1,110 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
QUOTE what exactly is the danger? If anything is wrong or goes wrong with that weld... what Dan said, you'll regret it for the rest of your life (actully, you'll just go out in your sleep and you probably won't have time to regret anything). |
luisqcosta |
Oct 29 2008, 06:35 PM
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#52
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Portuguese 914 Fan Group: Members Posts: 5 Joined: 10-October 08 From: Porto - Portugal Member No.: 9,632 Region Association: Europe |
you can always try the source for these exhausts!
http://cgi.ebay.de/Porsche-914-6-Paar-Waer...id=p3286.c0.m14 from germany! (how much would be shipping costs???) hope i helped! Luis |
morgan_harwell |
Oct 30 2008, 08:02 AM
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#53
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Ha! Finally snuck up on a camera! Group: Members Posts: 126 Joined: 28-January 03 From: Santa Cruz Mtns., Ca. Member No.: 203 Region Association: Northern California |
Does anyone here use the GHLs?
The heaterboxes on the GHLs look to be as large as the stockers (which will roast you!). I'm planning to add dual Cats to my exhaust system. The GHLs would make that pretty easy, by removing enough of the rear pipe to fit the Cats between the collector flange and the /6 muffler. |
Dr Evil |
Oct 30 2008, 03:53 PM
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#54
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Send me your transmission! Group: Members Posts: 23,032 Joined: 21-November 03 From: Loveland, OH 45140 Member No.: 1,372 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
Hey Al, come April at the Hershey swap meet you can always find a set of stockers for $700-800. I had Root and John weld up a set that I was gifted right before I had them Jet hot coated. Cheaper and easier in the long run, IMHO.
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jim912928 |
Oct 30 2008, 05:26 PM
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#55
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Senior Member Group: Members Posts: 1,485 Joined: 8-January 04 From: Granger, IN Member No.: 1,536 Region Association: Upper MidWest |
I purchased the GHL's however I don't know how they heat yet as it is part of my 3.2l conversion and I'm just at the point of getting ready to weld the RJ mount on my firewall. I have to say they were great to work with, didn't take long to get them and the workmanship looks great.
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Johny Blackstain |
Oct 31 2008, 11:47 AM
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#56
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Walnut Elite Stratocaster player Group: Members Posts: 3,434 Joined: 5-December 06 From: The Shenandoah River Member No.: 7,318 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/popcorn[1].gif) What a thread!
I just got back last night form replacing my throw out bearing & starter in my pick up... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) Today I wiped out in my Civic... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/stromberg.gif). My fault- left rear tire was almost flat & I did not notice. Car kept pulling towards the left, I thought a caliper had locked up, since I had not driven the car in days, so I was trying to break it loose & slid off the road into a confield (IMG:style_emoticons/default/screwy.gif) . Damage was minimal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif) . (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sawzall-smiley.gif) as I write this. E & Dr. Evil: I would not mind stock exchangers but I am very partial to stainless. I vividly remember riding around w/ my Pop in an exhaust filled 74 LE, which is why Pop parked the car & bought stainless exchangers in the first place. Now, w/ stainless exchangers & powder coated ducting, the heat is phenomenal in the LE. I would love to save some money, but have no idea what it would cost to repair & jet-coat exchangers. How long does jet coating last? I got a price from Ian for $2110.72US, including shipping. This was for 1.75" tubes. |
amallagh |
Dec 1 2008, 07:11 PM
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#57
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Member Group: Members Posts: 103 Joined: 4-September 06 From: Cheshire, England Member No.: 6,767 |
Johnny et al,
did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ? I've been looking for a set of heat exchangers myself but haven't been too keen on the BB & GHL versions. Similar to yourself I liked the look of the Hayward & Scott version which seemed the most similar to the originals but in stainless. They also look like they should flow OK. After some searching I've found a couple of people who have them in the UK and the reports of fit, quality and heat generated are good. I see on here it has been commented about the preformed bends that are welded together to make the shape (you can see the construction technique in the plain 911 header set also produced by Hayward & Scott in the picture below). Some strong comments on here about this being dangerous. I would agree with this for carbon steel manifold tubes but with the thick gauge stainless used in the Hayward & Scott items it won't rust anyway. Not a problem as long as they are welded properly to start with, which is easy to check. The gauge of stainless tube that they use means that they can't form the tighter bends so they use preformed bends and weld then together on a jig. This is a time consuming way to make them but they say they would rather do this than use thinner gauge tube. I've added a couple of pictures below that I got from a guy who bought a set 8 years ago. The area of enclosed header pipe in the heat exchanger boxes looks only slightly less then the originals. And another comment I have had from someone who has a set is that the heat generated is equal to his originals that he replaced. The picture of the set bolted up to the engine helps to show just how big the boxes are. The costs of the Hayward & Scott items was the main problem for me when I was been able to find BB or GHL versions in the US for less than $1900 when I looked 12 months ago. Now that the £/$ exchange rate has moved to where it is, then this is looking less appealing anyway. And presumably £1300 for the Hayward & Scott items is looking more appealing to your guys in the US. My loss is your gain ! Ian is prepared to offer some more discount for multiple sets. He offered me £1170+vat for 3 sets or £1105+vat for 5 sets if we could rustle up the custom. I hoped he would go further but I haven't given up yet. I am interested in one set but need the price to be lower then the std website listed price of £1300+vat to justify it. It's a lot of money to pay for a few winter outings given you guys are kind enough to send a load of Gulf Stream water to keep us warm each winter ! Many thanks ! Ian said to me the other day that someone from the US had ordered a set and someone else was thinking about it. Anyone on here ? Anyone fancy combining forces to get the best deal for all ? I'm sure Ian would accept orders separately to keep things simple if we could just get a group together. (Ian can do them in different diameters as required) (IMG:http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/amallagh/914HeatExchangers1.jpg) (IMG:http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/amallagh/New_Exhaust1.jpg) |
Johny Blackstain |
Dec 1 2008, 08:08 PM
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#58
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Walnut Elite Stratocaster player Group: Members Posts: 3,434 Joined: 5-December 06 From: The Shenandoah River Member No.: 7,318 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
Johnny et al, did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ? Yes, I decided to go w/ the Hayward & Scott's & got a price of £1305.00 shipped. I ordered them w/ 1 5/8" tube diameter & 2.5" collector diameter. Now I'm just waiting on my order; should be 2 more weeks. Cost is high but I have no intention of ever selling the car & just want to enjoy it as much as possible. |
TedK |
Dec 1 2008, 09:25 PM
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#59
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Member Group: Members Posts: 163 Joined: 1-August 07 From: Thousand Oaks, CA Member No.: 7,961 |
Their website says 1500 pounds before shipping, how did you get them to give you that price? I must say those do look nice, I am most interested in this product.
thanks tk |
number6 |
Dec 1 2008, 10:01 PM
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#60
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Member Group: Members Posts: 352 Joined: 14-September 08 From: portland, or Member No.: 9,546 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
Johnny et al, did you end up buying a set of exchangers from Hayward & Scott ? I've been looking for a set of heat exchangers myself but haven't been too keen on the BB & GHL versions. Similar to yourself I liked the look of the Hayward & Scott version which seemed the most similar to the originals but in stainless. They also look like they should flow OK. After some searching I've found a couple of people who have them in the UK and the reports of fit, quality and heat generated are good. I see on here it has been commented about the preformed bends that are welded together to make the shape (you can see the construction technique in the plain 911 header set also produced by Hayward & Scott in the picture below). Some strong comments on here about this being dangerous. I would agree with this for carbon steel manifold tubes but with the thick gauge stainless used in the Hayward & Scott items it won't rust anyway. Not a problem as long as they are welded properly to start with, which is easy to check. The gauge of stainless tube that they use means that they can't form the tighter bends so they use preformed bends and weld then together on a jig. This is a time consuming way to make them but they say they would rather do this than use thinner gauge tube. I've added a couple of pictures below that I got from a guy who bought a set 8 years ago. The area of enclosed header pipe in the heat exchanger boxes looks only slightly less then the originals. And another comment I have had from someone who has a set is that the heat generated is equal to his originals that he replaced. The picture of the set bolted up to the engine helps to show just how big the boxes are. The costs of the Hayward & Scott items was the main problem for me when I was been able to find BB or GHL versions in the US for less than $1900 when I looked 12 months ago. Now that the £/$ exchange rate has moved to where it is, then this is looking less appealing anyway. And presumably £1300 for the Hayward & Scott items is looking more appealing to your guys in the US. My loss is your gain ! Ian is prepared to offer some more discount for multiple sets. He offered me £1170+vat for 3 sets or £1105+vat for 5 sets if we could rustle up the custom. I hoped he would go further but I haven't given up yet. I am interested in one set but need the price to be lower then the std website listed price of £1300+vat to justify it. It's a lot of money to pay for a few winter outings given you guys are kind enough to send a load of Gulf Stream water to keep us warm each winter ! Many thanks ! Ian said to me the other day that someone from the US had ordered a set and someone else was thinking about it. Anyone on here ? Anyone fancy combining forces to get the best deal for all ? I'm sure Ian would accept orders separately to keep things simple if we could just get a group together. (Ian can do them in different diameters as required) (IMG:http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/amallagh/914HeatExchangers1.jpg) (IMG:http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb207/amallagh/New_Exhaust1.jpg) I'm pretty sure I'm the party "thinking about it" that Ian mentioned to you (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) and I'm still definitely interested. Though I won't know for sure probably until the end of this month, as my car is still not yet back from the shop. It's the welds inside the heat shells that's got me nervous, which is why I've been thinking about getting a set of stock HEs and having them restored/coated. Not the ideal solution for me, since I prefer the larger pipes and stainless construction. I did recently take my car for a quick spin, and the B&Bs did make a little heat, but it's hard to judge in this not-even-cold weather. Guess I'll have to wait and see under real living-with-them conditions. Al, please let us know how your new H&S's turn out! From what's written above, it sounds like you're going to be very happy. After you make sure the initial welds are good, I assume! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) -duc |
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