Type IV rebuild cost break down, literally, specifically... |
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Type IV rebuild cost break down, literally, specifically... |
Gint |
Nov 14 2008, 08:23 AM
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#1
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Mike Ginter Group: Admin Posts: 16,093 Joined: 26-December 02 From: Denver CO. Member No.: 20 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
I'd like to see where the $$$ are spent for a Type IV rebuild. Looking for a complete price break down listing of each of the individual parts (or group of parts, ie. pistons) , machining, labor (if necessary), etc...
Someone has to have done a complete listing of costs during their rebuild. But I've never seen one on this site. |
johannes |
Nov 14 2008, 08:58 AM
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#2
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Club Porsche 914 France President Group: Members Posts: 3,084 Joined: 13-January 06 From: France Member No.: 5,409 Region Association: France |
You can do it from Raby's kit parts list.
You will almost reach the price of the kit minus the heads if you keep them stock. |
VaccaRabite |
Nov 14 2008, 08:59 AM
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#3
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En Garde! Group: Admin Posts: 13,553 Joined: 15-December 03 From: Dallastown, PA Member No.: 1,435 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
I'd like to see where the $$$ are spent for a Type IV rebuild. Looking for a complete price break down listing of each of the individual parts (or group of parts, ie. pistons) , machining, labor (if necessary), etc... Someone has to have done a complete listing of costs during their rebuild. Off the top of my head, for a 2056 rebuild (and reusing some parts) I am also counting fuel induction and exhaust as part of the engine build cost. $2000 core 2056 engine with a butt ton of good parts (Mallory, 44 IDF carbs, CERAMIC LIFTERS, good heads, etc.) $100 case machining (squaring droopy registers) $80 cylinder boreout (I dropped one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) ) $270 set of KB pistons/rings, balanced, from Jake $40? main bearings $50 seal kit $25 adjustable push rod tool (from Jake - not needed, but VERY helpful) $20 HF 1 inch dial indicator and mount $100 lightened flywheel, tuna can, extra engine case, cam bearings (thanks Josh!) $20 locktite case sealant $trade push rods, mahle cylinder (the one that got bored out) $700 Eurorace headers, turbo muffler $60 two IDF rebuild kits (ebay) $10 two phenolic gaskets. $10 M8 threaded rod to make longer studs to use the thick gaskets. $80 bead blasted clean all engine tin. $16 engine paint for clean tin (rattle can) $100 engine test stand (home built, componant cost only) Theoretical total: $3681 Keep in mind, I am including things that others may not include for an "engine" rebuild. Either way, you have to do them, and an engine won't run w/o fuel and exhaust. I could have saved a little money if I had not been butterfingery with one of my cylinders. But I also looked for deals and made use of the 914world network instead of just going retail. Also, I did not have to have my heads done, and that saved me a TON of money. And, obviously, finding Evan and buying his 2056 was a godsend. The carbs, mallory, and lifters alone were worth what I paid for the whole engine. Zach |
Gint |
Nov 14 2008, 09:11 AM
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#4
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Mike Ginter Group: Admin Posts: 16,093 Joined: 26-December 02 From: Denver CO. Member No.: 20 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
You can do it from Raby's kit parts list. You will almost reach the price of the kit minus the heads if you keep them stock. I'm not looking to build a list from Raby's site. It wouldn't include machining and the "gotchas" etc... I'm looking for actual experience, after the fact, this is what it all cost when it was all said and done. Kinda like what Zach listed there. Except I didn't see a cam listed. Thanks! More please! |
VaccaRabite |
Nov 14 2008, 09:22 AM
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#5
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En Garde! Group: Admin Posts: 13,553 Joined: 15-December 03 From: Dallastown, PA Member No.: 1,435 Region Association: MidAtlantic Region |
I'm looking for actual experience, after the fact, this is what it all cost when it was all said and done. Kinda like what Zach listed there. Except I didn't see a cam listed. The core motor I bought had a webcam 494 grind cam in it already, in good shape. I saw no reason to rebuy. Also, I am still dicking with the carbs. So, I would need to add the cost of re-jetting and new venturis. zach |
brant |
Nov 14 2008, 09:30 AM
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#6
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914 Wizard Group: Members Posts: 11,739 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Colorado Member No.: 47 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Mike,
I'm sorry I didn't keep a list I have a rough total though I scrimped and reused things I shouldn't have the first time, I reused my cam, pistons, cylinders I did re-ring them, and have them honed I also Fuch'd up by not having my rods rebuilt my heads were $1,000 (stock rebuilt) and with heads I had about $2500 into it this second time I bought the cam kit for ? (was it $625?) add the fact that I'm having the crank done, the rods rebuild, and a few more parts if you don't count the items I'm buying twice (2 gasket kits, 2 sets of bearings, 2 sets of rod nuts) I'm thinking about $3,300 total with Zero labor (even though there are many, many hours into washing, dissassembly, washing again) this is a very stock 2.0 with a mild cam, but stock re-used pistons, low-ish compression, nothing fancy brant |
Todd Enlund |
Nov 14 2008, 11:35 AM
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#7
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Resident Photoshop Guru Group: Members Posts: 3,251 Joined: 24-August 07 From: Laurelhurst (Portland), Oregon Member No.: 8,032 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
I'm keeping very detailed records, but I'm nowhere near done. I'm shopping for deals until I am ready to build. The engine will be 2258cc. What I have so far:
Used 78mm Crankshaft - $100.00 New Pushrod Tubes - $19.95 New Webcam #163 w/ gear - 76.01 Dual Valve Springs w/ retainers - $22.75 1.7 Rocker Arms - $40.00 2.0 core engine w/40 IDFs, 009 and SSI exchangers - $400.00 My Shopping list includes another estimated $1849.15 in parts, $150 in machine work, and $1200 for the heads. That's $3857.86. My list includes: 96mm KB stroker pistons/cylinders/rings H-Beam Rods Main/Rod/Cam bearings Lifters Gasket Set Front and Rear oil seals Dizzy drive gear Chromoly pushrods HD Rocker shafts w/ solid spacers swivel foot valve adjusters and nuts Oil galley plugs Cam plug dowel pins woodruff key Cylinder shims Pushrod tube shims 2x IDF rebuild kits Sachs disk/pressure plate Cap/rotor/points/wires And leaves me with a 2.0 crank and rods that I can sell off. I'm sure that I'll spend a few more bucks here and there on miscellaneous stuff or additional machine work, and I'd like to get something better than the 009 dizzy, but my target is carbs to muffler for $4K. When I get the crank magnafluxed, if it is bad, that will blow my budget. I think it will only cost me another ~$350 though, because I'll then buy a new crank that will eliminate the need for grinding, and it will have type 1 journals so the rods will be $100 cheaper. And I still have about 5 months to shop for parts deals that could save me more $. I'd be glad to give you an update when I'm done (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) I think you'll find different people's costs vary widely depending on what they did. A $5k Raby kit, a $300 bearing and ring job, or something in between. |
carr914 |
Nov 14 2008, 07:06 PM
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#8
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Racer from Birth Group: Members Posts: 121,083 Joined: 2-February 04 From: Tampa,FL Member No.: 1,623 Region Association: South East States |
rdauerhaer(spelling?) has one for sale in the classifieds for $9,000. Spells out what went into it.
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914werke |
Nov 14 2008, 07:40 PM
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#9
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"I got blisters on me fingers" Group: Members Posts: 10,542 Joined: 22-March 03 From: USofA Member No.: 453 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
Thanks for the Plug (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif)
But ..thats a complete drivetrain + extras. If you follow one of those links it will take you to McMarks (updated?) build page in which he provides a very detailed list of his kits components. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/aktion035.gif) The thing is everyone focuses on the hard parts cost but when youve spent that kind of money on an *new* engine its false economy to slap on old components like lines induction and electronic bits. Im guessing most folks end up with Carbs so perhaps Im off the mark. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) |
Todd Enlund |
Nov 14 2008, 08:21 PM
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#10
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Resident Photoshop Guru Group: Members Posts: 3,251 Joined: 24-August 07 From: Laurelhurst (Portland), Oregon Member No.: 8,032 Region Association: Pacific Northwest |
Im guessing most folks end up with Carbs so perhaps Im off the mark. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/confused24.gif) I plan on starting with carbs, because they are way cheaper for my application than a custom EFI system. Later, I would like to experiment with EFI... but that will likely be years down the road. |
Gint |
Nov 14 2008, 08:27 PM
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#11
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Mike Ginter Group: Admin Posts: 16,093 Joined: 26-December 02 From: Denver CO. Member No.: 20 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
I think you'll find different people's costs vary widely depending on what they did. A $5k Raby kit, a $300 bearing and ring job, or something in between. I understand that. Actually that's partly what I hope the result of this thread will reveal. I have a fair sized pile of used parts and if I get a complete enough list of prices for parts and labor for machining operations etc... I can figure out what I want to use new and used and get a ball park figure of what it might cost me to put something together. This will help me determine my direction. And that direction could still end up being a water cooled motor, but that's a thread for another day. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) There are enough anal retentive people on this board that there have to be itemized engine build parts/costs lists out there. Keep 'em comin and thanks! |
brer |
Nov 15 2008, 03:25 PM
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#12
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,555 Joined: 10-March 05 From: san diego Member No.: 3,736 Region Association: None |
heads- 600
crank and rods rebuilt - 280 case machine work- 150 bearings- 75 KB Pistons- 200 rings- 50 cylinders- 0 boring cylinders- 125 cyinder shims- 20 cromo pushrods- 80 (2 sets) 911 swivel feet- 80 rocker shims- 25 gasket kit- 40 main seals- 25 crank gears- 60 misc hardware and sealants- 100 flywheel- 60 balancing- 125 springs retainers- 80 cam lifters- 275 (i think) powder coat- 150 ss heat exchangers- 200 exhaust- 325 intake system custom and still not finished- 700+ $2500 +/- not including time and fuel. stock, with stock intake and exhaust would have been around $1750.00 also, new clutch and pressure and throwout- 175 cleaning ect. done by myself. |
r_towle |
Nov 15 2008, 07:35 PM
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#13
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,624 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States |
Stock 2.0 liter.
1800.00 Rich |
Jake Raby |
Nov 15 2008, 09:26 PM
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#14
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Engine Surgeon Group: Members Posts: 9,398 Joined: 31-August 03 From: Lost Member No.: 1,095 Region Association: South East States |
You can do it from Raby's kit parts list. You will almost reach the price of the kit minus the heads if you keep them stock. I'm not looking to build a list from Raby's site. It wouldn't include machining and the "gotchas" etc... I'm looking for actual experience, after the fact, this is what it all cost when it was all said and done. Kinda like what Zach listed there. Except I didn't see a cam listed. Thanks! More please! With my kit = prep service there is no machine work cost- its all included along with the"gotchas". According to the level of what you build, most people will spend 3K to get close to a properly outfitted engine that choose to buy parts without a kit. At that most engines aren't balanced and heads aren't thoroughly rebuilt with new seats properly installed and updated. There are two parts you do not skimp on: Cylinder heads valve train/ camshaft. Skimp on either of these and you'll blow your money away. The brand new CNC produced cylinder heads are almost 1/2 the cost of my engine kits- they have to be. |
Gint |
Nov 15 2008, 09:32 PM
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#15
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Mike Ginter Group: Admin Posts: 16,093 Joined: 26-December 02 From: Denver CO. Member No.: 20 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
If I end up doing this it would appear that The Type IV Store "Basic valvetrain upgrade 8000" would be the way to go.
but... I'm not looking to be told or advised what to use or do at this point. I'm not looking for a "kit" commercial or a total price only, or... I'm looking for an itemized list of rebuild costs based on individual's experience after doing a Type IV rebuild like post #3 and #12. Thanks! |
r_towle |
Nov 15 2008, 10:37 PM
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#16
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Custom Member Group: Members Posts: 24,624 Joined: 9-January 03 From: Taxachusetts Member No.: 124 Region Association: North East States |
here is your spreadsheet for parts, go price these out to see for yourself.
Jake tends to be very competitive in his parts prices. Engine Gasket set Crankshaft main bearings Front oil seal rear oil seal Camshaft bearings Camshaft seal Rod bearings Rod bolts and nuts (new) Pistons and cylinders Camshaft Lifters Rocker arm adjusters (optional custom push rods) Piston rings 2 cases of oil 4 oil filters Now, machine work etc. You can choose to do or not do these items, so the cost is optional and its based upon your judgement, sac size, and current available funds. Casework Complete blueprint of case including line bore and register facing. Drill and tap oil galley plugs Rod work recondition rods, machine shop work. Head work Clean them with easy off oven cleaner, four times in the chamber. Clean them immediately with Borax for get rid of the black residue from the easy off. Take ink and wipe the chamber (use white or red or pink ink) and let the ink seap into any possible crack...then wipe clean. Take hig resolution pictures, call LEN, email the pictures..do what he says...he is reasonably priced and will only do what you need/want. He will stay in your budget. Given all of that. Get a set of calipers and read the manual...if the current parts are within spec, use them again. re-using pistons is quite acceptable no matter who says you cant. If they are in spec (see the manual for the numbers) then you can use them.. every other motor re-uses pistons...we can and do. They MUST be big enough and in spec. Get the FACTORY manual for the motor. read what they tell you (the manufacturer) you can do with used parts...valves, springs, keepers etc etc etc. I will repeat so you read between the lines... Get the FACTORY manual and read it... You will learn what you can do. Camshaft...that is your call, your judgement...it is matched with the lifters so they come in a set. I have done it with both new and used...they all still run...BUT...you need to check the camshaft and lifters....are they in spec?? Rarely are they in spec...I got lucky a few times...most are burned and the hardness has been worn away (discoloration on the lobes) and once that starts...you aree now gonna grind either the lifter or the camshaft...or both very quickly. You can save money on the gear by removing that yourself and bolting it to the new camshaft... Heads are heads...they are probably cracked..if not use them. 1.7 and 1.8 heads can survive alot of abuse.. Minimum guaranteed need is valve guides and a valve job..that is minimum. the ink will tell you...dont ignore it...it sucks to replace a single pistons and a head for being cheap...and that is what happens. Rich |
Gint |
Nov 18 2008, 06:09 AM
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#17
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Mike Ginter Group: Admin Posts: 16,093 Joined: 26-December 02 From: Denver CO. Member No.: 20 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Still looking for itemized lists of rebuild costs. Here's a weekday (IMG:style_emoticons/default/icon_bump.gif)
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Joe Ricard |
Nov 18 2008, 10:02 AM
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#18
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CUMONIWANNARACEU Group: Members Posts: 6,811 Joined: 5-January 03 From: Gautier, MS Member No.: 92 |
I don't understand your bump.
I am pretty sure several examples have been posted. 2500.00 minimum to 4000.00 cutting no corners. increase in performance varies significantly per dollar. My engine from carb filter to tail pipe? about 10K +/- a few hundred. |
Gint |
Nov 18 2008, 06:02 PM
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#19
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Mike Ginter Group: Admin Posts: 16,093 Joined: 26-December 02 From: Denver CO. Member No.: 20 Region Association: Rocky Mountains |
Because I'd like more than 2 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) complete, itemized lists of costs.
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brer |
Nov 18 2008, 06:49 PM
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#20
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,555 Joined: 10-March 05 From: san diego Member No.: 3,736 Region Association: None |
I'm cleaning a case now for another motor.
I'll give you another one when its done. I'd like to add that the only area I could have spend more money was P/C's everything else was machined and race balanced properly, including zero decking the case and galley plugs. It would be a mistake to think that 2500 means alot of corners were cut, the reality is that sharp buyers can get great deals from members or ebay that will help keep costs down. |
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