What Lind accomplished hadn't been attempted here in North America. No doubt the same vibration characteristics were present as Porsche's version. A masterpiece in ingenuity and fortitude to complete.He speaks Porsche very well.
Some kind of wonderful. Opens up a whole new life for piston engines,so very programmable. Kudos.
/
SirAndy
Oct 16 2013, 01:37 AM
QUOTE(veekry9 @ Oct 15 2013, 07:38 PM)
No doubt the same vibration characteristics were present as Porsche's version.
Actually, if you do some reading, that is the very reason why Porsche went to a center driven cooling fan that ran off a 90 degree angle drive on their flat /8 racing engines.
It is quite an eye opener to read about their vibration issues with the long crank and how they went about solving those issues.
Dave_Darling
Oct 16 2013, 09:58 AM
I thought the firing order thing was how they finally solved the vibration problems in the 908 motors?
Some of the 908s, at least, used an upright fan that is very similar to the standard 911 one.
When they built the "912" engine (for the 917) they used a center take-off as the only option. The long crank twisted too much to have the take-off at the end.
--DD
bandjoey
Oct 16 2013, 10:54 AM
Donor Motor for the Limo?
SirAndy
Oct 16 2013, 11:19 AM
QUOTE(Dave_Darling @ Oct 16 2013, 08:58 AM)
I thought the firing order thing was how they finally solved the vibration problems in the 908 motors? Some of the 908s, at least, used an upright fan that is very similar to the standard 911 one.
I can't remember where i read that article, it was an interview with the guy who designed the 908 engine. Old Pano maybe???
It's a really interesting read ...
veekry9
Oct 17 2013, 02:22 PM
So. I recently took possession of two(2)2.7L(164") Corvair engines.
I doubt it would be as simple as merely welding sawn,machined cases together,
then,installing a custom crank and cam.The problem then becomes the cylinder heads. Metal joining technology has come a long way since '65. Look,if that guy out there in boonville Norway(er..corr Sweden) can do it,what,if only money,is stopping us(me)? It is a matter of will.Luke,do or not do.
http://bestplay.pk/watch/V6PGO03K6cI Like the Merlin V12 engine above,the 180* flat engine has 6 crankpins,just like the Boxer Six. The crank is offset 3" to grind the 6" stroke crank,27L. /
Technology Terminology,for to make communicate.Some,obviously,are not on the same page. Needing a part,called a part store,"Do you sell 'whatchyamacallits',for my motor thingy?".
The reason for the forked 'Connecting Rod',is performance,the reduction of engine weight. The HD,and the RR,have their cylinders opposite each other,in the same plane.The greater complexity of manufacture was a calculated compromise. The weight of the crankshaft was reduced,as the secondary unbalance forces were nulled by the inline cylinders,less vibration. The shared crankpin of the 917 engine's side by side,'conrods',are the result,also,of a compromise in the cost of manufacture,and simplicity The proposal for such forked rods,in the initial design stages of the 917 engine,was rejected,as their mass was unsuitable for the high rpm engine. Two different applications,two different results,both of which excelled in their field.
So,yeah,a flat 180-12 engine can have the cylinders inline,the boxer's must be offset.The offset distance is the thickness of the web,rod and journal,if any. A method to circumvent the offset,with minimal complexity.: Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment After the Cosmic Rain The whatif of gearheads everywhere is what makes all of this wrenching so worthwhile. Certainly,few of us here are motivated only by $$reward.Rather,we support the specialists out there. They need the money,you need the 'stuff',
Click to view attachment A MS Paint drawing from the '90s,to show the kids how to use the pc,called it 'Veloce'.
Isdera Eberhard Shulz. He started out as the Erator GTE builder and developed into a wonderful designer.I even like his first off. There's a youtube of it being thrashed through the black forest. A showcase of the builders dream realized.A successful talent in auto design.
Midengined straight-6 or V8 sports type. Oh Yeah, Made the cover of Road+Track. Then Years later,tested at speed by Paul Frere, 176MPH=Stable,Tight.(Yes:176mph).As timed by R+T.
So. I recently took possesion of two(2) 2.7L(164") Corvair engines.
I doubt it would be as simple as merely welding sawn cases together,
then installing a custom crank and cam.Then the problem becomes the cylinder head. Metal joining technology has come a long way since '65. Look,if that guy out there in boonville norway can do it, what,if only money,is stopping us?(me) It is a matter of will. Luke,do or not do.
Why on earth would you bother with a push rod engine ??
Velly interestink. I presume the 'trunk'is in the middle,or perhaps the fuel tank has been relocated to the vacant engine bay. For lack of a better description a VW-914-T1-4.For those whose inclinations are bug-love.Does it work? Sure.
>on UAC [ Type 4 Unleashed Location: Aliso Viejo, CA M-Owen wrote: Did you ever get an answer from this site? Yes I did, and was signed up. Two guys built this motor, Julle & Lind, it had even been upgraded to a 4.6 ltr, they had upgraded to 101.6 mm P/C's. The motor is currently in a 914, and had been taken up to 167 mph and it still was pulling, but engine temps were climbing, so he slowed it down. This would be a wild project. ]
Indeed,lessee...$/Lb.:Porsche-8 versus Lind-built T4-8 The idea Lind+Julle could run that 8 with a welded crank I think is doubtful. Having attracted worldwide attention,would they repeat the feat for a customer?
Dave_Darling
Oct 22 2013, 07:34 PM
How the heck do you fit that thing in a 914????
--DD
veekry9
Oct 22 2013, 07:58 PM
The Question is how did he do it at all. Likely every 3rd person who saw it under construction had doubts of success or even completion. Point Made.
The Evolution of Design. A Flat 8 built today may actually be superior in every way. Definitely Expensive. Well,There is 1 Factory 914-8. (corr:2 actually,thanks Dave) Exclusive Territory. Hmmm...
edit:this animation shows the crank in an interspersed configuration. a 4cyl crank in the middle,another split and joined at each end,hence the harmonics. The successful 908 crank is 2 4cyl cranks joined at 90* angle.
Aircraft engines are not good candidates for car engines. They do not rev the same and the cams are meant to get power in a narrow band. Same is true for a converted corvair engine.
veekry9
Oct 25 2013, 06:55 PM
QUOTE(Dr Evil @ Oct 25 2013, 08:41 PM)
Aircraft engines are not good candidates for car engines. They do not rev the same and the cams are meant to get power in a narrow band. Same is true for a converted corvair engine.
Oh Yeah. The aircraft billet engine is for aircraft,that said,the idea that the average m/c shop equipped with modern tools can crank out specials is valid. I'm still hankering for the 4valve heads that Martin Bott developed for T4's The Jabiru from Oz isn't the only fully cnc'd engine type.
Click to view attachment A fellow up here in Ontario,also known as TasmanDevil. Unrecognisable as a Fiero.TPI V8 Transverse. Gorgeous Paint(Jag BlackCherry Metallic)Full Leather. Absolutely Impeccable. http://www.fiero.nl/cgi-bin/fiero/Ultimate.cgi For those of you interested in an American MidEngine as a 2nd car,and an object of worship on the alter of the jackstands.
/
Dave_Darling
Oct 27 2013, 09:10 PM
QUOTE(veekry9 @ Oct 27 2013, 06:10 PM)
Unrecognisable as a Fiero.
Unrecognizable? "Fiero" was the first thing that went through my head when I looked at the picture...
--DD
Dr Evil
Oct 27 2013, 09:18 PM
What pic? That link takes me to a list with no pics
Dr Evil
Oct 27 2013, 09:19 PM
Never mind, the Fiero pic loaded in the thread. I looks like a Fiero
veekry9
Oct 28 2013, 05:13 PM
UhHuh. So it's true then,a leopard can't change it's spots. But a V8 into a 914 or Fiero can enhance your power trip. An entire aftermarket exists for your personal magic carpet. Some parts not included. Some assembly required. The lowly Fieros and 914s made new and improved.
Any Takers here? Quote Flat 8 Porsche Engine A mate is making a flat 8 engine for a replica 908. He has used two 2.7lt magnesium blocks that we wirecut at my work and has welded them together in a jig. First time he has welded mag and it is a steep learning curve with the pre heating/jigging and post stress relieving. Here are the photos of his second attempt. He still has 1mm of bend after welding but is making a different jig that will be stronger and keep the heat more stable (he was saying 5 mins after welding and it was cool enough to handle). Unquote Click to view attachment
Any Takers here? Quote Flat 8 Porsche Engine A mate is making a flat 8 engine for a replica 908. He has used two 2.7lt magnesium blocks that we wirecut at my work and has welded them together in a jig. First time he has welded mag and it is a steep learning curve with the pre heating/jigging and post stress relieving. Here are the photos of his second attempt. He still has 1mm of bend after welding but is making a different jig that will be stronger and keep the heat more stable (he was saying 5 mins after welding and it was cool enough to handle). Unquote Click to view attachment
"Excellent, the pressure is great, Today is March 19th, 2009, and tomorrow, we will be recorded for the show, 'Auto Esporte'. Good work Marco, Good work Arlindo"
Click to view attachment nice crank.corvair aero app they are able to do -8's to similar specs 2.5K+ /
billh1963
Apr 6 2014, 04:43 PM
Any progress on welding the 2.7 cases together?
veekry9
Apr 6 2014, 07:38 PM
billh1963: I looked at the performanceforum thd recently,and from what was described the case weldment requires further welding. Magnesium castings are no doubt difficult to do to a machined tolerance.He was able to get within 1mm(0.039")runout through the mains bores, which all things considered,is a notable success.So,some layup on the mainbores and parting faces to be remachined,to straighten it up X2. A ton of very difficult work.Inspired by their efforts,a minor change in plans will be applied to my own P14. The intent was to run the 2L until I found some issues with the valve guides,and since I now have the Corvair 6's,I believe the initial cost of a 14-6 will be tolerable, originality deferred temporarily.The idea of creating a flat 8 using Corvair blocks welded and machined can't possibly be original,though the net has not revealed an attempt. The CNC shop doing the billet corvair cranks are a likely source for a 90-degree 8 pin crank.A fewer number of main bearing pins may be a serious problem for the vibration characteristics of such a long crank.More research is needed. Here is a site (edit:11/05//15(http://www.pattakon.com/))that makes balance software available. The Porsche drawing I've posted here shows the 90 degree pins interspersed with the 0 degree pins. The 2 billet cranks made in Australia appear to be the other method,which I believe is the solution Porsche used to tame the harmonic vibrations inherent with the original design. The price of a crank made to these specs is not cheap,so what to do if you're really hankering for a flat 8?Cut weld...? Seriously,a talented welder with some rod may git er done.A lot of work.
veekry9
Apr 15 2014, 12:02 PM
Click to view attachment OK.here's the plan.. Get 2 sets of cases,and weld them together after machining the front and rear off each respective set. Front 2 and rear 2.Makes a long case to carry 8 cylinders. Look,if the guy in Aus can weld magnesium cases,it would have to be easier to do the same to 356 T6 alloy cases. Marginally easier admittedly,but possible to achieve the exalted F-8. Fun with TIG,in an oven,inert gas flushed... / (edit:08/08/16): Click to view attachment
Click to view attachment Well,the fellow in Australia has the right idea,wire edm cutting the cases to key each other together. Still,tubular shafts,ground to the mains and cam dia +0.0004"/-0 for alignment is essential. Otherwise,a near hopeless adventure,preparation of the weld groove is critical,minimum weld added. Tough job,all around.For sure a worthy aspiration,wanting -8,pushrod even.More cylinders,more better.
Click to view attachment Even these cases could be sixed,356-6.Custom crossflow center head too.
Click to view attachment A VW Boxer Six,a neato version of the Corvair engine. Clearly,a welded crank.Note the main journal's discoloration and heat affected zone. The -8 crank is done in a similar way,two -4 cranks welded together,90* apart.
Click to view attachment Mounted Mid in a 914,this is the right side of the engine,pretty nice looking. I want to build a few,and I know,some of you want one too.
Click to view attachment Some real expertise demonstrated here,kudos.Note the cam nose profiles,long duration,mushroom lifters,a revver.
/
rick 918-S
Apr 16 2014, 10:12 AM
I like this!
bulitt
Apr 16 2014, 11:17 AM
There was a guy....on Ferrari chat with some amazing machinist and tig welding skills, and allot of energy. He decided to make his own 12 cylinder engine. He had a machine shop in his basement. The thread ran for years. It blew up.
So I think it is cool you are attempting this, and wish you the best of luck! You may want to try and source every existing part that would fit and design around them.
Me, I would just drop an LS engine in there. But I seriously get where you are coming from!
Here is the thread. It's 101 pages long. It will suck you in! And, there is no ending because some nastiness occurred and the admins shut it down.