Hello All !

I've lurked for years, reading all the posts... Great People / Great Stories / Great Cars -

I have a 1972 1.7? that the previous owner had grown frustrated restoring... It just had a few electrical issues which I, being old, bald and fat, had the patience to hunt down and cure.

Its in pretty good shape - and the mighty 80 hp can be fun... kinda. but last May here in Houston, my home flooded (approx 2", which means 7" in my garage). I have just started driving it again... and, as you can guess, its a little stiff in the joints...

so now the time has come:

A) Do I restore it back to original condition?

B) Do I hot rod the Type IV engine? ( I do like the space design of the car)

C) Do I go batshit and convert to ls3 w/Boxster S transaxle / 916 body / stiffeners . . . the whole 9 yards....

D) Subaru Power?

I need the guidance and leadership from the learned members of 914 World.

Please vote - Your input is greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance

beebo

p.s. - What is the best way to ascertain to original factory build for a 914 / specifically, this car?

How much money do you have? Is all the rust removed? If not, tear the chassis down to a tub and get all the rust remove/repaired. Then build what you can afford.

Personally, I like the narrow body cars and I don't have the need for 300HP in my 914. That's just me. Opinions will vary.

My two cents: original.

Go "all out". In other words, spend as much on the car as you can afford/justify.

Bottom line is no matter what you do you won't please everyone. It's your car, your money, your time, and your enjoyment. Do what you want to do, don't worry about us.

Do agree with boxsterfan however, take care of rust now, otherwise it will only get worse and more expensive.

I say keep it orginal on the out side and load it with performance. I say build yourself a good 2056 or bigger from your 1.7. If you have the cash have Orginal Customs, the Type IV Store, or other known vendor spec you out a good 125 to 150 hp engine. You can have tons of fun with that. If you want to go nuts check out a Raby engine. The Raby engine is, in my book, the holy grail of performance and drive ability.

Taking that approach allows you to go back to stock but have lots of fun tinkering.

I am lucky - no rust - everything is powder coated... It saw the 7" of water for approx 3 hours... which means the exhaust / wheel bearings / linkages, cables , et.al.

I originally bought the car originally to hot rod... but it was just too nice. and was looking for an excuse to juice it up - I don't see many with original fuel injection, original configuration...

I have hotrodded other cars in the past and they have been quite thrilling, to say the least. love 'em!

I am just torn as to what to do... and was wondering what the community thought .

maybe a Raby? and 5 lugs?

any and all feed back is greatly appreciated.

What is your goal? Concours? Investment? (Hint--most cars are awful investments!) Track? Street? Grin-inducing machine?

Figure out your goals, and figure out your budget. Cut the budget in half, and work out what you can do with that. It will give you a direction to go in. (BTW, you'll get back to your original budget in cost if you pretend you're shooting for half the budget.)

--DD

That is a hell of a good approach. Also address the suspension as more HP needs more control. Unless you can document a recent suspension replacement plan on changing everything.

OK, if nobody else is going to say it, I will:



If you like the space utilization of the 914, then keep it air cooled. That means upgrading a TypeIV or converting to a six...both good choices depending on your budget. If you want to keep original FI then a 2056 is about the top of the displacement chart, but that can get you 120-150 hp, gobs of torque and retain the inherent charm of a 914. Probably the most cost effective also so you can spend funds on suspension upgrades.

Whatever you decide, have fun and post pictures.

Thanks to all - I never expected such a quick response. It just seems from y'all's feedback I should go with a nasty Type IV and a superior suspension.

Do the 5 lugs help in any way? or is it that the larger brakes can be fitted?

Being the aforementioned old, bald and fat, I am going to job this out.

Again, how do you go about finding the original factory build? I really don't know the color / options as it came from the factory...

Who is the best at suspension? Transaxle? Stiffening? limited Slip?

Click to view attachment

I say "go light weight" make everything super thin. Take off every pound you can spare and then put in a clean running /4. Don't go to radical. Make it drivable.

Just my 2cents

Damn, that is a sweet looking 914. So because of that I would lean towards a semi-hot 4 cylinder with FI. Then dial in the suspension and brakes. I say semi-hot because I think some of the extreme built 4 cylinders don't last as long as one would hope. So for me, moderation is the key to longevity. I like the sleeper looking cars. Oh and we are not letting you off the hook with one photo......

Turbo it.

If it aint broke don't fix it. You want to drive or work on it?
The love diminishes exponentially with every day it's not drivable.
Life is short GO DRIVE IT!!!

I occasionally imagine a time when all the cars having been flared, guys start converting them back to narrow body...

Just restore it. It's a great looking car.

Restored is awesome, but if that means a repaint, forget about it, because your car looks great right now.
If that is the original yellow, and #s matching engine, working D-jet, correct wheels, etc etc then go for a restoration!
BUT if it were ME that had more $$$ I'd build/get built a 2.2 TIV hot rod engine!
Definitely re-do as much of the suspension as possible ASAP and you will not be disappointed: turbo tie roads, new ball joints, new low-friction bushings, adjustable shocks, and absolutely positively a big anti-roll bar up front.
Oh, and a good 4->1 header does wonders for a 1.7 TIV. Mine feels like at least 90 HP


Are there any curvy roads in Texas?

I found that going five lug really stiffened up the suspension. I did it all correctly, powder coated, replaced, and all the best stuff that made sense + factory sway bars. I highly recommend it, but it ain't cheap. Now, I'm going 911 engine.

Your car almost looks too nice to screw with, so rebuild THAT suspension to the max and do a bigger type IV.

(although I will say that the five lug Fuchs would look great on your car)

That's a sweet ride . I love yellow on 914 and my first 914 was yellow . I do feel like my 5 lug is a lot better than the 4 .

Leave it as is....drive as much as you possibly can.

Build another type four to last and have fun driving it.

It is a nice looking car.

I think you need to drive a 3.0L or larger and then decide! Keep you options open. I love the 3L-6 in mine but it's all about what you can afford and what you can find.

You can't have just ONE

We currently have two - one hot rod/outlaw/bastard with a high-end 2056 for real manly fun and my wife has a perfectly bone stock '71 with a little 1.7L.

Your car looks really nice as-is. If it was mine, I'd keep it pretty much stock, but maybe build up a separate slightly larger motor, keeping it in the reliable category. I'd also keep the original motor tucked away in the garage. Then over time slowly rebuild that motor for originality purposes.

When I hear the same question from others, whether it's a car or a musical instrument, I'll typically say - you have a blank canvas in front of you, so you can paint anything you want.

On the other hand, I've seen some guys take a totally beautiful straight stock car, flare the fenders and drop a big 6 or Subi in it. I can understand that they want their dream car, but don't understand why they didn't start off with a less desirable car that had slight body damage that needed repairs in the first place ... seems like a sacrilege to me.

Let us know more about your car ... what other features and accessories it came with, as well as any areas that might have existing damages that need to be dealt with.

... and ... you won't find a better 914 forum anywhere else in the world

As for five bolt conversion, there are two ways - modified hubs/rotors to allow installing five bolt wheels, or the better way to install a 911 front end and replace the rear hubs with 914-6 or 911 parts.

The advantage of the 911 front end is better handling and larger brakes.

On my car I run a nice 2056 with dual webers (nice sound for a type IV) and a 911 front end - big improvement over stock performance in both power and handling.

One question is how much do you want to put into this car? Just a decent engine rebuild can easily run north of $5k, performance enhancements add to that. Though your paint looks good, a decent respray can add another $5k. A six conversion as some have recommended will run you north of $15k, likely more than $20k that given you stated that work will be done by shops.

But as I said earlier, no matter what you do, opinions will differ, do what you want to do.

List all the things you want from the car ie value, driving, racing, power, cruising.. weigh each and then consider your budget.

Doing whatever YOU want aside, that's a good looking car! An upgrade to a 2.0 or 2056 would enhance the value and fun, and be quite a looker. Chasing a /6, subi, or LSi, is a long term adventure down a cash ejecting rabbit hole. Fun for sure, but like others have said, can be done with a second car.

Oh and

That is a nice 914 Beebo.

Welcome to the forum.

Check the longitudinals for rust and take care of this first.

Then, I would put more power under the hood, but make it drivable. You got nice wheels. Put in sway bars and a front caliper upgrade (BMW318).

And, have fun!

Claus

Restore this one, hot rod the next one.

this is exactly what i did as well , but mostly still original, since its so nice and clean dont do anything you cant un-do. 5 lug is nice and can be returned to 4 if wanted to go back . but i like the 16" fuchs i have now, more choices with wheels, rims etc and still is porsche. - Look into Eric Shea's 5 lug conversion . i idid mine myself and like Larmo, i did my trialing arms and a-arms, all new bushings a bearnings since it was all 40 years old and now rides like new. but i stayed with original calipers rebuild and restored by PMB(eric shea) as well, stops on a dime. really not necessry to go bigger unless racing.

Larger brakes (generally ventilated rotors), and a much wider selection of wheels.




Then do as little to the car as possible. Paying someone else to work on your car gets expensive really fast.




Start that journey here: http://www.porsche.com/usa/accessoriesands...ofauthenticity/

You may have to provide proof of ownership, and it does cost some $$. And the results are known to contain mistakes, in part because the information was copied off of hand-written index cards at some point. Plus Porsche's/WV's record keeping wasn't the best in the world at the time.

--DD

I'd stick with the basics with that nice of a car. Add sway bars if you don't have them. Sticky sports car tires. Better brake pads. Put some money aside for repairs that come up.

A good running stock 1.7 is worth more than a core, so I would garage it and buy a built big 4. I went from a carbed 1.8 (dog) to a stock 2.0 (fun) to a 200hp 3.0 (big grin) and now have a 270hp 3.5 in the works. I say test drive a few before you commit.

If you stick with a -4, the 911 brake swap, lsd, and other stuff doesn't really matter. You can still get bigger wheels in 4 lug, or drill the hubs for 5 lug if you really like a wheel style.

Not to sound insensitive, but dropping 100lbs off the driver would help.

You know the OP and you are joking, right? WTF?

Just noticed the windshield wipers rest on the right side. Wondering if it was a Euro market import?

If the records you have don't say, a COA might tell you more - or a better yet, a Kardex (if they're available for 914s)

Thanks Thanks Thanks!

I knew the collective brilliance of 914 world would guide to a path of 914 righteousness.

1) get the Porsche COA to see how close to original it is; and to use that as a guidepost

2) make sure the body/chassis is perfect, stiffening (gotta have a good foundation, right?)

3) suspension... probably stick with with the 4-lug, but can't be sure - I do like brakes... and the wheel options

4) a Type IV - I think a goal of ~200hp is reasonable and attainable

So in the end, an original looking car, peppy (read fun) which should handle even better than it does now(or did then)... maybe even get back into an occasional autocross? who knows?

Oh, and I am down to ONE (1) bucket of KFC / night - the poundage is flying off! Tie me down before the wind picks up!!!!

thanks again, I will keep you posted, now that I know how to use this interweb thingy.

beebo (aka dan)

P.S. I'm gonna throw the ls into the Cayman... I'll let you know how that goes.

Dan - 200hp will be a real good reason to go with vented front rotors

What? 100lbs is 5% of the car's weight. That's significant when you have only 80-120 hp. That's autoX_101
-----
More hp = bigger brakes is an old wives tale. From an engineering perspective, it's based on vehicle weight and heat load. So a big -4 doesn't nesitate vented rotors, it just makes people feel safer.

I can say 200 hp turns the 914 into a real sports car. Be flexible when talking to engine builders about the 200 hp number. A solid street motor with with a reasonable price tag might come a little under. Sometimes the price tag makes the LS a no brainer.

A 200 HP Type IV is one of two things--
Either very high-strung and short-lived, or very very expensive indeed (when you pay someone else to build it).

--DD

You might get some debate from the braking industry, Chris.

Upgrading the braking system was just a recommendation from my personal opinion, but formulated during my employment with Mister 500. When re-engineering a vehicle to higher performance, the braking system should be re-engineered to handle those changes. Higher HP automobiles tend to be driven at higher speeds (velocity) and brake more aggressively, especially in racing applications.

The OP will ultimately have to decide what's best for him based on his plans for his car. Since he mentioned running AX courses, that's the application I responded to

Wives aside, I think it's common knowledge that vented rotors dissipate heat better, which helps to avoid a number of reasons for system failures.


Wilwood says:

"Most modern stock brake systems work well for average daily street driving and an occasional 60-0 or 80-0 stopping. Typically performance enthusiasts who occasionally compete in racing events, push the stock brake system beyond its capabilities. Driving style, and other performance modifications such as increased horsepower, tire and suspension upgrades, etc., can quickly overwhelm stock brakes. A big brake kit will provide increased heat capacity, which means substantially more resistance to brake fade and caliper distortion with multiple stops from high speed. A firmer pedal due to stronger and stiffer components, as well as better modulation characteristics are also benefits of a properly balanced brake upgrade."

Stoptec says:

Most of the enormous amounts of heat generated during deceleration must be dissipated into the free air stream.

Most high performance (and/or heavy) cars today use some variation of the "ventilated" brake disc in which air entering the center or "eye" of the rotor is forced through the interior of the rotor by the pumping action of the rotating assembly. The most efficient practical way yet devised to accomplish this is through the use of the "curved vane" ventilated brake rotor originally designed for the LeMans winning Ford GT 40s in 1966. In this design the interior vanes are curved to form an efficient pump impeller. They also stabilize the rotor from distortion and serve as very effective barriers to stop the propagation of cracks due to thermal stress. In laboratory testing STOPTECH's innovative design developments in the 48 vane rotors have increased air flow through the rotor by an astounding 61% over some OEM rotors and from 10-15% over racing rotors of the same size. This results in a cost effective but very stable direct replacement rotor that runs typically 15% cooler than stock and 7% cooler than racing designs.

OK guys, as long as we're getting esoteric, wouldn't the 4-lug rotor/brake system result in a lower unsprung weight? allowing faster transient response and a lower rotating mass?

if I'm going light, light, light can this be a determinant?

Remember, I'm down to one bucket of KFC/ night.

That's quite correct, the -4 brakes are lighter (both in rotating and non-rotating mass) than the -6 ones. Narrower wheels are generally lighter than wider ones, as well.

However, you will often find that people interested in performance will tolerate the extra weight for extra brake heat-sink capacity and a wider contact patch.

I do know people who have been very successful on the track with the -4 brakes, but they were either rules-constrained or were very intent on making the car as light as possible.

--DD

A lot of subjects will have debatable points, like when the which brand of oil do y'all recommend, or what tires are best come up? If I were AXing, or even spirited back road driving (which we probably all do at one time or another) - with 200hp in a 2k lb car, I'd definitely upgrade the 70's era VW solid rotor braking system ... JMO

Good luck with whichever path you decide to go down

The braking industry's reasons are based on theoreticals. Assuming more aggressive driving on the street, which given the amount of traffic in my city would be stupid. Or track use, which many drivers don't do. We should be safe assuming Porsche addressed sporty driving and autoX when it spec's the brakes.

I'm not against brake upgrades, as I've done a few of my own vehicles when the stockers let me down.

Drilled rotors have the same misleading reputation. A few people do it wrong, see failure, freak out and tell everyone about it while the majority don't have problems.

As far as weights, PMB / Eric Shea did a comparison, plus added a bit about lightweight calipers. I forget exactly what he said.

I hear ya, and I still run solid rotors on all the P-cars, but I don't have 200hp behind my butt. Even the factory '6's only had 110hp back then.

The only one I drive even halfway aggressively is the 'BB' with maybe 125hp. I had planned to drop a 2.7L 'S' non-Cali motor into the '72 5-lug I sold a couple of years ago ... rears were still solids, but the the fronts were vented, and that was 175+/- hp at the flywheel.

Can't really use a factory -6 as a comparison. Porsche used off the shelf Porsche parts building their 914. Same era 911 is what +600lbs? Same 20mm rotors as the early 944 @ 2500lbs. Plus Porsche had track aspirations for it.

Does my type of driving lead to brake fade? Yes, upgrade brakes or change driving style.

My car started as a base model with Rivieras. I ended up with a full Carrera front susp with cross drilled 24mm rotors. Someday I might need to do a 120-0 hard stop, but that's my driving style.

well, its been a few weeks working with the sputnik (name for the 914) and, here's the observations:

1) brakes sticking (Front Ones only) - I've taken the calipers them off. remove any surface rust and viola! 90% success! they still don't feel the way the used to. a few more heat cycles may do it.

2) D-Jetronic... Really? who invented this? cleaned all the connections. much improvement. starts easily, initially runs well, but now there seems to be a degeneration in its operation. stumbling / general loss of power / steady idle, but less and less power. I'm gonna pull the injectors and check them. after that, I am suspicious of the triggering contacts in the distributor. all vacuum lines are good, spark is good, and fuel pressure is good.

otherwise all the electrical seems good (except my reverse lights cease all operation)

also of note is whilst all the parts are new or powder-coated, the new bolts are steel! no plating, no protection... I can see they're gonna have to be replaced.

any and all comments / observations / shared similar experiences are appreciated.

and, has anybody fitted aftermarket injection systems on these engines?