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Mueller
I popped the heads off in order to remove the broken exhaust studs (one per cylinder)

(I wrote broken head studs....I meant exhaust studs)

Stock camshaft has some strange wear patterns on it which might be part of the previous owner problems with the motor.


Cam will be a 9600 grind from Rabys old store

Intake planned is stock L-Jet, however I can be swayed to install Megasquirt (plenum or ITB) since I already have the Megasquirt.

Exhaust is older European Racing Header.
stugray
you can measure the valve travel without even taking the rockers off.

To actually get at the cam to change it, you have to split the case, now the "what should I replace?" comes down to 1 - your budget & 2 - what you find.

In either order.

You can inspect & measure all the 'pertinents' and decide if anything is worn.
Gunn1
Did you try the search function ?

You will find mucho Grande info on this subject there.

Mueller
QUOTE(stugray @ Jun 29 2016, 01:58 PM) *

you can measure the valve travel without even taking the rockers off.

The actually get at the cam to change it, you have to split the case, now the "what should I replace?" comes down to 1 - your budget & 2 - what you find.

In either order.

You can inspect & measure all the 'pertinents' and decide if anything is worn.


Not really looking into splitting case, for some odd reason I was thinking cam came out without do that, been too long.

Oh well, I'll still measure it yet chances are it's going to stay unless that camshaft mentioned earlier would really offer some improvements.

John Jentz
Jake doesn't sell parts anymore, only turnkey engines. The Type IV store is now owned by LN Engineering.
Gunn1
I think Jake uses the search function .

Be like Jake.......
rhodyguy
Saw that one coming 1/2 hour ago. Funny. No quotes required.

Mike, have you tried contacting LN/type4 store directly with the cam #s you have? Does the site list a phone #? Edit: I checked. you should call type4 support
Mueller
QUOTE(John Jentz @ Jun 29 2016, 02:11 PM) *

Jake doesn't sell parts anymore, only turnkey engines. The Type IV store is now owned by LN Engineering.



I'd think he'd still have the specs to the older stuff he sold.

Cam is not listed on Store website. I could call them tomorrow, might be something not usually offered.
Mueller
QUOTE(OU812 @ Jun 29 2016, 01:59 PM) *

Did you try the search function ?

You will find mucho Grande info on this subject there.


Yes, yes I did...feel free to search 9600 for the specs. I asked after I couldn't find the specs!
rhodyguy
Unless somebody had their NEW cam read, those details are probably proprietary knowledge.
Gunn1
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 29 2016, 04:49 PM) *

QUOTE(OU812 @ Jun 29 2016, 01:59 PM) *

Did you try the search function ?

You will find mucho Grande info on this subject there.


Yes, yes I did...feel free to search 9600 for the specs. I asked after I couldn't find the specs!


Just messin with ya
Chris H.
If Jake doesn't see this just call Charles at LN Engineering. He owns the Type 4 Store now. phone: 815-472-2939. Super nice guy.
r_towle
Mike,

Go to Elgin camshafts and look at what he sells.
Lift ramp is most of what you can change .
He has one that will work.

Split the case, it will make drilling out the head studs easier to jig up.
Plus, you cannot replace the camshaft without doing that .
Valy
How long did the motor run with broken head studs?
I would suspect the cylinders are out of round.
Mueller
Exhaust studs broken, not head studs.....

r_towle
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 30 2016, 12:01 AM) *

Exhaust studs broken, not head studs.....

You are a nice guy to make sure we don't think we are nuts...

stugray
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 29 2016, 10:01 PM) *

Exhaust studs broken, not head studs.....


maybe contact saigon71 and see this thread:

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=248544
Mueller
I called LN Engineering, they found the specs for the cam I have sitting around...

Lift:
I .335
E .400

Duration:
290 I/E

Duration @ .050:
I 252
E 254

108 Lobe center.
stugray
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 30 2016, 10:57 AM) *

I called LN Engineering, they found the specs for the cam I have sitting around...

Lift:
I .335
E .400

Duration:
290 I/E

Duration @ .050:
I 252
E 254

108 Lobe center.


That is the lift at the cam.
edit - not even sure of that. The #s look wrong. Is that at the cam or at the valves?

While you have his attention, could you please ask what lift he expects with that cam at the valves?
Mark Henry
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 30 2016, 12:57 PM) *

I called LN Engineering, they found the specs for the cam I have sitting around...

Lift:
I .335
E .400

Duration:
290 I/E

Duration @ .050:
I 252
E 254

108 Lobe center.


The 290 duration number is odd.
Look at the WEB 73 numbers in the link below:
http://vwparts.aircooled.net/Web-Cam-Type-...72-p/00-472.htm

WEB 73 is a FI grind but IIRC it has bit more lift. If you want L-Jet you need an stock based FI grind like the 73.
stugray
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jun 30 2016, 10:57 AM) *

I called LN Engineering, they found the specs for the cam I have sitting around...

Lift:
I .335
E .400

Duration:
290 I/E

Duration @ .050:
I 252
E 254

108 Lobe center.


So those numbers seem a little odd.
If that is lobe lift at the cam you will have approx.
Ivalve = .460, Evalve = .520 at the valves

Just as a datapoint, there are no webcams that are off much at all between Intake & exhaust advertised lift (although there is some).

The 86b I run has advertise lift of .500/.500 at the valves with a similar duration as yours.

The measured on mine for the 86b was I valve .475 Evalve .504

SO your cam is even a little more 'aggressive' than an 86b as far as intake/exhaust flow ratio is.
Maybe that cam was destined for a big valve setup?
G e o r g e
a thread over on the samba Jake references a web cam 86a/86a +2 1/2 as the equal to the 9600.

looks like the 290 duration fit into their readings the + 2 1/2 must account for the intake and exhaust changes
Mueller
QUOTE(G e o r g e @ Jun 30 2016, 03:50 PM) *

a thread over on the samba Jake references a web cam 86a/86a +2 1/2 as the equal to the 9600.

looks like the 290 duration fit into their readings the + 2 1/2 must account for the intake and exhaust changes



Thanks, of course I am drawing a blank what "2 1/2" means.
Advanced?
maf914
It looks like the cam specs are for a split duration cam, with the lift and duration for the exhaust valve increased to overcome the more restrictive exhaust port flow (relative to the better flowing intake port). At least that is what I recall from earlier tech threads from 914 World and ShopTalkForums.
Jake Raby
The 9600 is a straight pattern version of the 9610, which is the more modern offering. I stopped using the 9600 in 2007.

Still a great cam. Just build it!
Mueller
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 1 2016, 06:50 AM) *

The 9600 is a straight pattern version of the 9610, which is the more modern offering. I stopped using the 9600 in 2007.

Still a great cam. Just build it!


Thanks,

Will do!
Mark Henry
Jake is it an FI cam?
Mike said he was thinking L-jet.
stugray
QUOTE(Jake Raby @ Jul 1 2016, 07:50 AM) *

The 9600 is a straight pattern version of the 9610, which is the more modern offering. I stopped using the 9600 in 2007.

Still a great cam. Just build it!


Jake, based on the numbers above for the cam, can you give the expected values for the lift at the valves?
Mueller
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jul 1 2016, 06:53 AM) *

Jake is it an FI cam?
Mike said he was thinking L-jet.



If worth it, I'll swap to Megasquit with a bigger TB or even ITBs

I've already bought 911 swivel adjusters (new, factory items)

Next will be the lifters and pushrods from LN....is the DVD for building Type IVs available anymore?

Mark Henry
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 1 2016, 12:11 PM) *

....is the DVD for building Type IVs available anymore?


Just post your progress, you'll get lots of help. shades.gif
r_towle
Yup, just build it.
Take your time, learn about how to do the valve geometry and you will enjoy the process.

Rich
Mueller
Curious if I should be looking for a cheap single or dual carb setup for the break-in since with a new cam and lifters it'll be like starting a newly rebuilt engine.


Mueller
I ran the part numbers on the head and the cylinders, 1.8 parts.

Cylinders are in great shape, no pitting just some discoloration.

Stock camshaft looks odd, or at least to me.

The heads show no signs of cracks, I didn't have to do much to clean the springs and seat area, just wiped off the old oil and sprayed with hot water.

Pistons are in good shape, the one pictured has signs of something falling in there or is that detonation?

Combustion chamber has a few little divots just like the piston, very minor.
I think piston #4 had the most buildup on the top.

I still have a bunch more cleaning to do to the heads and case.
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Valy
That cam is a paperweight.
Mueller
Both heads will need a little machine work to clean up the head to cylinder mating surface, I removed the head gaskets the previous engine builder used. I will not be using gaskets here again.


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IPB Image
r_towle
QUOTE(Valy @ Jul 2 2016, 01:49 AM) *

That cam is a paperweight.

With the gear they make neat lamps....

JOEPROPER
No head gaskets? Is that right? I didn't know that was an option... smoke.gif
Mueller
Do I have to buy a new gear for the cam or can I remove the rivets on the original cam and the use bolts?

I saw a straight cut gear in the classifieds....too loud?

What about cutting a groove in it?

And if I do use my original cam gear worth making it adjustable able?
Valy
Reuse.
jcd914
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 9 2016, 06:10 PM) *

Do I have to buy a new gear for the cam or can I remove the rivets on the original cam and the use bolts?

I saw a straight cut gear in the classifieds....too loud?

What about cutting a groove in it?

And if I do use my original cam gear worth making it adjustable able?


Send the cam over to Elgins and get it reground.
Mark Henry
Don't used straight cut gears, my great big engine in the bug still uses a stock gear.
You can reuse the gear but you have to face the holes and sink them a bit to clear the pump, but really a new gear is only something like $30.

Use the extra thrust bearing on the cam. BTW type 1 and 4 use the same thrust bearing.
DavidSweden
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jul 9 2016, 09:54 PM) *

Use the extra thrust bearing on the cam. BTW type 1 and 4 use the same thrust bearing.


Extra thrust bearing? Please explain
Mueller
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jul 9 2016, 10:54 PM) *

Don't used straight cut gears, my great big engine in the bug still uses a stock gear.
You can reuse the gear but you have to face the holes and sink them a bit to clear the pump, but really a new gear is only something like $30.

Use the extra thrust bearing on the cam. BTW type 1 and 4 use the same thrust bearing.



Thanks, I'll do more shopping around.

^ditto on "extra bearing" blink.gif

thanks
Tbrown4x4
Only 1 half of a cam bearing has a thrust surface. You buy two cam bearing kits and use two thrust bearings to increase thrust surface area.
Mark Henry
On the double thrust cam bearing couple ways to go about it:

1/Buy a 2nd set of T4 bearing use the DT and toss the rest.
2/Same thing with T1, same bearing as T4, but you can get a DT set that has two DT and save the 2nd DT bearing for later.

3/ buy a set of porsche /6 intermediate shaft DT bearings, they are the same but the oil hole is in the wrong place. So make sure you use one T4 with the correct hole and the other half can be the /6 DT. You could drill the /6 bearing and use both, but I've never done that

Sometimes you have to mod the bearing by filing off the lock tang, the lock tang isn't needed, I've never seen a spun cam bearing.
Mueller
Looked at the bearings I took out of the motor, makes sense now.

Only one shell has the thrust surfaces, middle bottom shell.

Bearings not shown in assembly order, the pair that has one thrust bearing surface is the 1st bearing in the motor. The middle is a tad narrower than the rear bearing.

Click to view attachment
Mark Henry
If that used DT bearing has a copper face and is in spec you can reuse it for your 2nd DT half.
Mueller
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Jul 10 2016, 11:04 AM) *

If that used DT bearing has a copper face and is in spec you can reuse it for your 2nd DT half.


Yes on the copper face and all the bearings and surfaces look perfect, but I'll still measure here and there.

rdauenhauer
QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 9 2016, 06:10 PM) *

Do I have to buy a new gear for the cam or can I remove the rivets on the original cam and the use bolts?

I saw a straight cut gear in the classifieds....too loud?

What about cutting a groove in it?

And if I do use my original cam gear worth making it adjustable able?


I also was curious about a straight cut cam gear. I happen to have one confused24.gif
Whats the advantage, if any?

Also as Mike queried anyone made an adjustable gear to index the cam in the eng?
McMark
QUOTE(rdauenhauer @ Jul 10 2016, 11:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Mueller @ Jul 9 2016, 06:10 PM) *

Do I have to buy a new gear for the cam or can I remove the rivets on the original cam and the use bolts?

I saw a straight cut gear in the classifieds....too loud?

What about cutting a groove in it?

And if I do use my original cam gear worth making it adjustable able?


I also was curious about a straight cut cam gear. I happen to have one confused24.gif
Whats the advantage, if any?

Also as Mike queried anyone made an adjustable gear to index the cam in the eng?

Straight cut cam gears are much louder, but take less HP to turn. The helical gears on a stock cam gear keep some tension on the system (hence the thrust bearing) as well as ease the contact between teeth by gradually bringin them together.

There are adjustable gears available as well. But from what I've heard they can lose adjustment or go loose. If I wanted an 'adjustable' cam gear, I would buy one of the cheap ones, find the timing I wanted, and then index a regular cam gear to that new location.
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