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Mblizzard
I am pretty happy with my stock FI. But after seeing some of the setups at Okteenerfest, I thought this might be worth trying.

The stock system is not easy to modify and get things running correctly. I spent a lot of time making minor adjustments by trial and error. While I am not looking for huge HP gains or anything, it is pretty clear that the mods I have could potentially benefit from a bit more precise control.

Going to start with fuel only at this point to get things going and see where it leads me. Any help or suggestions for set up would be appreciated.
76-914
popcorn[1].gif
GregAmy
I've been giving this a lot of thought. I'm a big fan of Mega/Microsquirt and once installed it's a breeze to tune.

My thoughts were along the line of:

- Use stock injectors, fuel lines, manifold, throttle body
- Use stock dizzy signal for inferred crank position sensor
- Install temp sensor in manifold hole for IAT
- Use MS internal MAP
- Design up a TPS replacement (either mounted directly to TB or a string potentiometer mounted remotely)
- Wideband O2 input for closed loop tuning
- Contract Bowlsby to manufacture a replacement harness

It won't be particularly difficult, but will require time and funds to initially setup.

Subscribing...
McMark
I have all the pieces I used on my car. Working on a new injector setup right now.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 3 2016, 06:03 AM) *

I have all the pieces I used on my car. Working on a new injector setup right now.


Yep you owe me the TPS bracket and TPS! Well owe is a little strong. You said you would get me a cost.
McMark
tongue.gif Done!
Mblizzard
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Oct 3 2016, 06:01 AM) *

I've been giving this a lot of thought. I'm a big fan of Mega/Microsquirt and once installed it's a breeze to tune.

My thoughts were along the line of:

- Use stock injectors, fuel lines, manifold, throttle body
- Use stock dizzy signal for inferred
- Install temp sensor in manifold hole for IAT
- Use MS internal MAP
- Design up a TPS replacement (either mounted directly to TB or a string potentiometer mounted remotely)
- Wideband O2 input for closed loop tuning
- Contract Bowlsby to manufacture a replacement harness

It won't be particularly difficult, but will require time and funds to initially setup.

Subscribing...


Pretty much what I am looking at but I am not so sure how to use stock Dizzy for variable timing/crank position sensor.

Looking at the simplicity of the wiring (of course this is without having done a single thing but order parts) it seems that this will be relatively easy to "self" wire.
GregAmy
It will be easy to self wire. However, if you want to make it available to the community - or want to market a kit to help recover costs - then it's even easier to tell them to "go there" for the harness, and "there" for the MS, and "there" for the TPS, etc and "here's how to install it" and "here's the thread where the community posts our tunes for the varying setups". Soup.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Oct 3 2016, 06:18 AM) *

It will be easy to self wire. However, if you want to make it available to the community - or want to market a kit to help recover costs - then it's even easier to tell them to "go there" for the harness, and "there" for the MS, and "there" for the TPS, etc and "here's how to install it" and "here's the thread where the community posts our tunes for the varying setups". Soup.


True. But given my level of expertise in this area I am not sure how many will want to follow my lead!

The one thing that I can say is that from a cost view point, this conversion seems to represent a very interesting break point between repairing a stock system and converting. Looking at just over $500 for the parts makes this very interesting.

To be clear, my stock system is going on the shelf to be used again at some point.
plays with cars
Mike, I think you're concern is justified about using the stock dizzy as an inferred crank position sensor. I would not do it. Particularly if you have vision to expand and ultimately use MS for ignition control as well. You would ultimately be installing a crank trigger wheel and sensor anyway.

There is huge potential for improved drivability, performance, and economy if you have 3D mapping capability for both fuel and ignition. I believe that the factory FI system has a 3D map already for fuel (using points in the dizzy for engine speed and manifold pressure for load sensing) but the distributor really only knows engine rpm. The vacuum canister does not do a good job reacting to load; it's primarily an emission device.

You're right to step into it one system at a time, but I would definitely plan to include ignition in your project. FYI I'm currently in the process of adapting a MegaJolt system, which is an ignition only variant of MS, onto the 2.4 MFI engine in my car. I tried tuning the ignition and the MFI at the same time but kept running into situations where i didn't know which system was at fault for running problems. I've now gone back to a distributor until I get the MFI tuned, then I'll start on the ignition again.
Mblizzard
Still asking questions. A number of people have confirmed that the stock CHT will work with this system. Because this system is a bit more sensate to noise it is designed to have the grounds loop back to the unit or essentially use a 2 wire sender. Of course the stock CHT is a single wire that is grounded directly to the engine.

Most of the modern 2-wire units are 3/8 NPT and the stock CHT is 10 mm x 1. Very close I know but has anyone ever seen a 10mm x 1 to 3/8 NPT adaptor?
JamesM
All sorts of cool stuff

http://www.thedubshop.net/products-c17av

jcd914
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 3 2016, 10:15 AM) *

Still asking questions. A number of people have confirmed that the stock CHT will work with this system. Because this system is a bit more sensate to noise it is designed to have the grounds loop back to the unit or essentially use a 2 wire sender. Of course the stock CHT is a single wire that is grounded directly to the engine.

Most of the modern 2-wire units are 3/8 NPT and the stock CHT is 10 mm x 1. Very close I know but has anyone ever seen a 10mm x 1 to 3/8 NPT adaptor?


I believe the 911 3.2 CHT is 10mm x 1.0mm and the later one "(1988 on? ) were 2 wire harnesses, including a ground wire.

Jim
cgnj
Hi,

I thought about about all of these issues while I was planning how to execute my MS conversion. Just replacing or repairing the stock MPS will cover most of the cost of the conversion.

If I were going to do a motor up to 2056, this is what I would do.

Microsquirt so all the controls can be in the engine bay and it will be easier to revert back to stock.
Crank position sensor and trigger wheel.
Cam position sensor
Coil on plug

1.8 plenum or a vanagon 2.1 plenum. (I measured the volume of these. There was a negligible difference). Vanagon plenum will allow a larger throttle body without as much work. I will have to check, but I think the vanagon throttle body is marginally bigger than the stock 2.0. I had a discussion with a member regarding these style plenums vs. 2.0 plenum. The theory is that the intake charge loses less velocity since it doesn't hit the floor before entering the runner.

I think this ends up being the cleanest installation.

My two cents, feel free to flame me.

Carlos


Mblizzard
QUOTE(cgnj @ Oct 4 2016, 02:30 AM) *

Hi,

I thought about about all of these issues while I was planning how to execute my MS conversion. Just replacing or repairing the stock MPS will cover most of the cost of the conversion.

If I were going to do a motor up to 2056, this is what I would do.

Microsquirt so all the controls can be in the engine bay and it will be easier to revert back to stock.
Crank position sensor and trigger wheel.
Cam position sensor
Coil on plug

1.8 plenum or a vanagon 2.1 plenum. (I measured the volume of these. There was a negligible difference). Vanagon plenum will allow a larger throttle body without as much work. I will have to check, but I think the vanagon throttle body is marginally bigger than the stock 2.0. I had a discussion with a member regarding these style plenums vs. 2.0 plenum. The theory is that the intake charge loses less velocity since it doesn't hit the floor before entering the runner.

I think this ends up being the cleanest installation.

My two cents, feel free to flame me.

Carlos


I hope there are no flames! In the thread or the car!

I have been looking at this a while and I initially want a dependable and adjustable fuel management system. My current set up runs well but the variables are just too hard to control.

So I am doing fuel first with stock intake. I have a very good 123 electronic dizzy so I am going to ride that for a while.

What I am looking at now is how to set it up to use the temp range in the CHT and possibly look at adding my Dakota CHT gauge as an input.
jd74914
Does the Dakota CHT gauge have any analog (voltage) outputs? The actual CHT sensor is a type K thermocouple, so you'll need an amplifier to read it into the ECU. I've used some of the cheap amplifiers on eBay for small projects and been pretty happy with them.

Mario @ TheDubShop has a pretty slick crank trigger setup which isn't too expensive. If you're going for simple to start you can go wasted spark/injection with just that crank trigger.

I would do some looking into controlling ignition too (I know you have the cool A123 dizzy) because once you start modifying injection you're probably going to want to jump right into modifying ignition too. smile.gif
McMark
CHT Group Buy from Mark Whitesell

Never had a ground loop problem with that sensor.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 4 2016, 05:16 AM) *

CHT Group Buy from Mark Whitesell

Never had a ground loop problem with that sensor.


Agree on use of this sensor. But I was looking to use the actual temp generated by the Dakota sensor to tell the ECU to enrich on certain conditions like climbing hills where the CHT may increase quickly.

Now I don't know enough about the ECU yet and this might be a moot point after everything is tuned. But after seeing how quickly the cylinder temps can change I thought if this was possible it would just be an added layer of protection.

I am checking on how the Dakota operates but I think it is a temp resistance set up.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 4 2016, 04:19 AM) *

Does the Dakota CHT gauge have any analog (voltage) outputs? The actual CHT sensor is a type K thermocouple, so you'll need an amplifier to read it into the ECU. I've used some of the cheap amplifiers on eBay for small projects and been pretty happy with them.

Mario @ TheDubShop has a pretty slick crank trigger setup which isn't too expensive. If you're going for simple to start you can go wasted spark/injection with just that crank trigger.

I would do some looking into controlling ignition too (I know you have the cool A123 dizzy) because once you start modifying injection you're probably going to want to jump right into modifying ignition too. smile.gif


Correct on the Type K and the voltage output is in the mV range so not very useful as is. Contacted Dakota and they don't have an way to output the voltage. So nice thought, difficult to implement.
Mark Henry
If you use the stock 914 injectors (low impedance) you have to use the resistor pack or you will fry your board.

I doubt if you see any real improvement over the stock FI on a bone stock engine. But like said if your MPS is shot or if you plan on future bigger engine/cam then it will pay off then.

I first ran my SDS on my stock 1.8, no power or MPG improvement, but it was a good engine to learn how to use the system.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Oct 4 2016, 01:20 PM) *

If you use the stock 914 injectors (low impedance) you have to use the resistor pack or you will fry your board.

I doubt if you see any real improvement over the stock FI on a bone stock engine. But like said if your MPS is shot or if you plan on future bigger engine/cam then it will pay off then.

I first ran my SDS on my stock 1.8, no power or MPG improvement, but it was a good engine to learn how to use the system.



Yep resistors on way! But I have a 2056 with big valve heads. I am expecting one-million HP!

Expect to take the engine down and split the case next time to add a cam at some point. Then even more HP!

Really just looking for a way to tune what I have well and move into other HP areas.
Dtjaden
Some comments on my 2 year journey with Megasquirt:

1. Install a crank trigger while you have the engine out of the car. Mario at the DubShop sells the one I used at a very reasonable price. I believe McMark also sells one.

While injection control could possibly work with less than a 36-1 trigger, ignition control would never be accurate enough. I am also concerned that a distributor based control would have too much trigger float because of the backlash in the distributor gears.

2. You can definitely use the existing injectors (2 liter), but have them rebuilt and flow tested. I used WitchHunter for this. You can also drive the injectors without resistor packs (which slow their response) by using a peak and hold driver board form JBPerf or DIYAutotune. You will need the flow rate of the injectors at the fuel pressure you decide on and the injector dead-time. I can give you those for my setup but yours may differ. They are not hard to calculate.

3. Once you decide to add ignition control it is almost trivial to get started with this. I used individual GM LS3 ignition coils which can be directly driven by the Megasquirt system. For a start at timing you can duplicate the the timing of the 914 advance curve and then go from there.

4. I tried using the stock CHT sensor - I went through 2 - and finally settled on the one sold by the DubShop. Its based of a GM sensor and is much more consistent. I had a lot of drift with the stock sensors. By the way, once the engine reaches normal operating temperature the CHT has little effect.

5. My throttle position sensor is a lightly used Bosch TPS that I adapted to the stock throttle body using a low tech aluminum plate. You can find this on numerous BMWs at your local junk yard or on ebay for around $30.

6. If you want reliable startup under varying temperatures you will need an idle control valve. I am again using a used Bosch ICV and as with the TPS this can be found on BMWs and others or ebay for $30 - 40. This is a PWM valve, not a stepper based valve.

7. To start tuning you can use the map that TunerStudio generates. You need to set the baseline tune with all TunerStudio Startup/Idle settings off and the engine fully warmed up. Set the idle using the idle adjustment screw on the throttle body. After that you can use the Startup/Idle settings to get a reliable cold start. If you don't do it this way you will chase your tale for weeks (ask me how I know).

8. If you want to do accurate tuning you will need a wide-band AFR meter. I use the Innovate Motorsports MTX-L for this.

9. I mounted the Megasquirt (not Microsquirt) in the rear trunk and have used WeatherPack connectors for all of the wiring. This includes two 22 pin bulkhead connectors into the engine compartment. I built my own mounting plate for the Megasquirt which includes a fuse panel, relays and breakout terminals for much of the wiring. I can build a 914 engine bay wiring harness for you using the Megasquirt standard wiring colors if you make a definite decision on the location of the Microsquirt/Megasquirt and the rest of the components that you will use.

That's a quick summary. If you have questions let me know.

By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl
porsche913b_sp
popcorn[1].gif
Porschef
QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 07:44 PM) *



By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl



BOOYAH!! Awesome. And there ain't a plug n' play for dummies like myself? BTW, how were your head temps?
Dtjaden
I think you could contact Mario at the DubShop or Mark at Origional Customs. I believe both would provide turnkey systems for the type 4. But without controlling most of the engine parameters it's not easy. The 1.7, 1.8 and 2.0L engines are each different. Then add the variations of differing cams, ignition, intakes, extended engine sizes and 40+ year old parts. If you try to minimize variations by providing all of the components and parts that eliminate commercial risk I'm not sure that many 914 owners would pay for the system.

On a do it yourself basis I probably spent about $2,500 (maybe more). The packaging of the various components would add many hours of labor and support of customers many more so I can't see selling a turnkey system that would include FI and ignition control for under $4,500.

On the Medford drive my CHT gauge was not working so I'm not sure of the head temps on that trip. My oil temps stayed in the range of 180 - 220 with the upper end during the drive through the passes on I5 between Redlands, CA and Ashland, OR.

I can run on the lean side when not under load. For example light load in the 15's. Under load more like 13 - 13.5.

P.S. - my engine is 2056 cc with about 9.2 cr and a Webcam #86

QUOTE(Porschef @ Oct 4 2016, 06:13 PM) *

QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 07:44 PM) *



By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl



BOOYAH!! Awesome. And there ain't a plug n' play for dummies like myself? BTW, how were your head temps?
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 03:44 PM) *

Some comments on my 2 year journey with Megasquirt:

1. Install a crank trigger while you have the engine out of the car. Mario at the DubShop sells the one I used at a very reasonable price. I believe McMark also sells one.

While injection control could possibly work with less than a 36-1 trigger, ignition control would never be accurate enough. I am also concerned that a distributor based control would have too much trigger float because of the backlash in the distributor gears.

2. You can definitely use the existing injectors (2 liter), but have them rebuilt and flow tested. I used WitchHunter for this. You can also drive the injectors without resistor packs (which slow their response) by using a peak and hold driver board form JBPerf or DIYAutotune. You will need the flow rate of the injectors at the fuel pressure you decide on and the injector dead-time. I can give you those for my setup but yours may differ. They are not hard to calculate.

3. Once you decide to add ignition control it is almost trivial to get started with this. I used individual GM LS3 ignition coils which can be directly driven by the Megasquirt system. For a start at timing you can duplicate the the timing of the 914 advance curve and then go from there.

4. I tried using the stock CHT sensor - I went through 2 - and finally settled on the one sold by the DubShop. Its based of a GM sensor and is much more consistent. I had a lot of drift with the stock sensors. By the way, once the engine reaches normal operating temperature the CHT has little effect.

5. My throttle position sensor is a lightly used Bosch TPS that I adapted to the stock throttle body using a low tech aluminum plate. You can find this on numerous BMWs at your local junk yard or on ebay for around $30.

6. If you want reliable startup under varying temperatures you will need an idle control valve. I am again using a used Bosch ICV and as with the TPS this can be found on BMWs and others or ebay for $30 - 40. This is a PWM valve, not a stepper based valve.

7. To start tuning you can use the map that TunerStudio generates. You need to set the baseline tune with all TunerStudio Startup/Idle settings off and the engine fully warmed up. Set the idle using the idle adjustment screw on the throttle body. After that you can use the Startup/Idle settings to get a reliable cold start. If you don't do it this way you will chase your tale for weeks (ask me how I know).

8. If you want to do accurate tuning you will need a wide-band AFR meter. I use the Innovate Motorsports MTX-L for this.

9. I mounted the Megasquirt (not Microsquirt) in the rear trunk and have used WeatherPack connectors for all of the wiring. This includes two 22 pin bulkhead connectors into the engine compartment. I built my own mounting plate for the Megasquirt which includes a fuse panel, relays and breakout terminals for much of the wiring. I can build a 914 engine bay wiring harness for you using the Megasquirt standard wiring colors if you make a definite decision on the location of the Microsquirt/Megasquirt and the rest of the components that you will use.

That's a quick summary. If you have questions let me know.

By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl


Got TPS coming from McMark.

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.

I have heard good and bad about use of the Stock CHT. Checking with Mario on the options. The GM NPT threading is not the same as the 10mm x1 stock threading so would you not need an adaptor for that?

Like the idea of the peak and hold but I don't have the abilities to build the electronics and the prebuilt ones seem expensive.

Had not considered idle control valve. I hoped that the warm up programing in the MicroSquirt would address those issues Seem like that was a wrong guess?

Have wideband O2 already installed.

As this will be a build in stages I am not sure I cam plan out the locations of everything in advance. But I would love to see some photos of your install for some ideas.

Lots more questions to follow! Should be receiving my first batch of parts today.
Dtjaden
The DubShop CHT sensor is installed under one of the engine tin screws. It uses the GM sensor element in deferent housing.

If you are going to continue to use the 914 ignition you can't use the DubShop mini cam sync since it replaces the distributor. If you don't want to use a crank trigger wheel (which I strongly reccommend) your only option is using coil/points triggering.

Without using an ICV it will be difficult if not impossible to get hands off (really foot off) start up. You will need to use the accelerator for the first few minutes to keep the engine running until it reaches operating temperature.

QUOTE(Mblizzard) *

QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 03:44 PM) *

Some comments on my 2 year journey with Megasquirt:

1. Install a crank trigger while you have the engine out of the car. Mario at the DubShop sells the one I used at a very reasonable price. I believe McMark also sells one.

While injection control could possibly work with less than a 36-1 trigger, ignition control would never be accurate enough. I am also concerned that a distributor based control would have too much trigger float because of the backlash in the distributor gears.

2. You can definitely use the existing injectors (2 liter), but have them rebuilt and flow tested. I used WitchHunter for this. You can also drive the injectors without resistor packs (which slow their response) by using a peak and hold driver board form JBPerf or DIYAutotune. You will need the flow rate of the injectors at the fuel pressure you decide on and the injector dead-time. I can give you those for my setup but yours may differ. They are not hard to calculate.

3. Once you decide to add ignition control it is almost trivial to get started with this. I used individual GM LS3 ignition coils which can be directly driven by the Megasquirt system. For a start at timing you can duplicate the the timing of the 914 advance curve and then go from there.

4. I tried using the stock CHT sensor - I went through 2 - and finally settled on the one sold by the DubShop. Its based of a GM sensor and is much more consistent. I had a lot of drift with the stock sensors. By the way, once the engine reaches normal operating temperature the CHT has little effect.

5. My throttle position sensor is a lightly used Bosch TPS that I adapted to the stock throttle body using a low tech aluminum plate. You can find this on numerous BMWs at your local junk yard or on ebay for around $30.

6. If you want reliable startup under varying temperatures you will need an idle control valve. I am again using a used Bosch ICV and as with the TPS this can be found on BMWs and others or ebay for $30 - 40. This is a PWM valve, not a stepper based valve.

7. To start tuning you can use the map that TunerStudio generates. You need to set the baseline tune with all TunerStudio Startup/Idle settings off and the engine fully warmed up. Set the idle using the idle adjustment screw on the throttle body. After that you can use the Startup/Idle settings to get a reliable cold start. If you don't do it this way you will chase your tale for weeks (ask me how I know).

8. If you want to do accurate tuning you will need a wide-band AFR meter. I use the Innovate Motorsports MTX-L for this.

9. I mounted the Megasquirt (not Microsquirt) in the rear trunk and have used WeatherPack connectors for all of the wiring. This includes two 22 pin bulkhead connectors into the engine compartment. I built my own mounting plate for the Megasquirt which includes a fuse panel, relays and breakout terminals for much of the wiring. I can build a 914 engine bay wiring harness for you using the Megasquirt standard wiring colors if you make a definite decision on the location of the Microsquirt/Megasquirt and the rest of the components that you will use.

That's a quick summary. If you have questions let me know.

By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl


Got TPS coming from McMark.

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.

I have heard good and bad about use of the Stock CHT. Checking with Mario on the options. The GM NPT threading is not the same as the 10mm x1 stock threading so would you not need an adaptor for that?

Like the idea of the peak and hold but I don't have the abilities to build the electronics and the prebuilt ones seem expensive.

Had not considered idle control valve. I hoped that the warm up programing in the MicroSquirt would address those issues Seem like that was a wrong guess?

Have wideband O2 already installed.

As this will be a build in stages I am not sure I cam plan out the locations of everything in advance. But I would love to see some photos of your install for some ideas.

Lots more questions to follow! Should be receiving my first batch of parts today.

Mblizzard
QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 5 2016, 07:10 AM) *

The DubShop CHT sensor is installed under one of the engine tin screws. It uses the GM sensor element in deferent housing.

If you are going to continue to use the 914 ignition you can't use the DubShop mini cam sync since it replaces the distributor. If you don't want to use a crank trigger wheel (which I strongly reccommend) your only option is using coil/points triggering.

Without using an ICV it will be difficult if not impossible to get hands off (really foot off) start up. You will need to use the accelerator for the first few minutes to keep the engine running until it reaches operating temperature.



The mini cam is the next stage. Starting with the coil for the tac signal for the fuel only stage.

I understand that there might be some variance in the use of the dizzy timing approach but I guess I just don't know enough about the crank trigger to determine why it would be better.

My goals are a low cost, dependable, and drivable system. Not trying to see great HP gains just a reliable system.

Can you point me to an ICV?
jd74914
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=
jd74914
Oops, just read your more recent post and saw that you want to use the coil for timing. Having increased resolution on the crank allows you better engine positioning accuracy so you can tune injection/ignition times better. Different applications, but generally better engine position accuracy results in a crisper tune.

With a T4 engine, the dizzy is driven right off of the motor so timing accuracy is very good compared to most engines. On engines with a belt/chain timing drive, there can be 2-5 degrees (or more) of error depending on engine speed, etc.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 08:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


Sorry AC = Air conditioning pulley is in the space the trigger would need to go.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 08:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


That looks like what I would want. and the coil packs are not expensive.
cgnj
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 09:58 AM) *

QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 08:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


Sorry AC = Air conditioning pulley is in the space the trigger would need to go.


Hi,
Member dlee has made a adaptor setup that will allow you to use a 36-1 crank trigger.
I just touched it last night. I will grab it and mock it up on the engine stand this evening. Crank position sensor in distributor will take away sequential fire option. It does reduce the number of cuts in the engine also.


I'm old, I need my AC.

Carlos
cgnj
QUOTE(Dtjaden @ Oct 4 2016, 04:44 PM) *


9. I mounted the Megasquirt (not Microsquirt) in the rear trunk and have used WeatherPack connectors for all of the wiring. This includes two 22 pin bulkhead connectors into the engine compartment. I built my own mounting plate for the Megasquirt which includes a fuse panel, relays and breakout terminals for much of the wiring. I can build a 914 engine bay wiring harness for you using the Megasquirt standard wiring colors if you make a definite decision on the location of the Microsquirt/Megasquirt and the rest of the components that you will use.

That's a quick summary. If you have questions let me know.

By the way, on the drive to Medford and back I got near 40 MPG driving at 75 plus MPH.

Darryl


Megasquirt in the trunk never crossed my mind. This was timely, saves me from putting a hole through the firewall.

40 MPG? What motor?

Carlos

N_Jay
QUOTE(cgnj @ Oct 5 2016, 12:35 PM) *

. . . .Crank position sensor in distributor will take away sequential fire option. . . .


Why is that?
Mark Henry
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 12:30 PM) *

Oops, just read your more recent post and saw that you want to use the coil for timing. Having increased resolution on the crank allows you better engine positioning accuracy so you can tune injection/ignition times better. Different applications, but generally better engine position accuracy results in a crisper tune.

With a T4 engine, the dizzy is driven right off of the motor so timing accuracy is very good compared to most engines. On engines with a belt/chain timing drive, there can be 2-5 degrees (or more) of error depending on engine speed, etc.


Well debateable ...crankfire is still not as accurate as many believe, a 2-4 degree variance would still be the acceptable norm. As far as the dizzy drive goes it only becomes less accurate when you decelerate, and that doesn't really matter. The performance gain that most are seeing comes from the advance curve and higher voltages of modern coils.

Same debate as far as sequential and batch fired injectors. The only real advantage of sequential fuel injection is an emissions and maybe slightly better MPG. And this is at lower RPM's, over say 4000 RPM most of this becomes a moot point.

BTW I've been running EFI and crankfire since 2003.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Oct 5 2016, 10:48 AM) *

QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 12:30 PM) *

Oops, just read your more recent post and saw that you want to use the coil for timing. Having increased resolution on the crank allows you better engine positioning accuracy so you can tune injection/ignition times better. Different applications, but generally better engine position accuracy results in a crisper tune.

With a T4 engine, the dizzy is driven right off of the motor so timing accuracy is very good compared to most engines. On engines with a belt/chain timing drive, there can be 2-5 degrees (or more) of error depending on engine speed, etc.


Well debateable ...crankfire is still not as accurate as many believe, a 2-4 degree variance would still be the acceptable norm. As far as the dizzy drive goes it only becomes less accurate when you decelerate, and that doesn't really matter. The performance gain that most are seeing comes from the advance curve and higher voltages of modern coils.

Same debate as far as sequential and batch fired injectors. The only real advantage of sequential fuel injection is an emissions and maybe slightly better MPG. And this is at lower RPM's, over say 4000 RPM most of this becomes a moot point.

BTW I've been running EFI and crankfire since 2003.


As I tend to be, I am so far ahead of myself it is not even funny. Just got email that my MicroSquirt was delivered and was left on the front porch. So I am all ready looking at jumping to the ignition and sequential injection timing and I have not even opened the first box yet!

For my engine I think I will be spending most of my time below the 4K mark so the sequential fuel injection is desirable to me but obviously not a requirement.

But I would like to go to a more modern coil set up and have the ability to control my timing. If there is a dizzy based option to control the timing I would be good with that and let the sequential go.

Something like this seems perfect but not sure where to find. Click to view attachment


Mark Henry
Yep, I'm just saying don't get hung up on it.
MS/micro squirt can be run on batch fire, you could worry about sequential later. Just might be easier during the learning curve.

I'm sure you can fire the ignition off of pertronix's, etc. even points, just lock out the dizzy advance and you have programmable ignition through the MS.
cgnj
This is the Dubshop cam position sensor $155.00 Dubshop Ignition
Can do batch or sequential. It is pre-order now. I have it installed and my engine is on the stand. I'll add that to my picture list.

Have we hijacked this thread yet? If so, I'm sorry.

Carlos
Mblizzard
QUOTE(cgnj @ Oct 5 2016, 12:04 PM) *

This is the Dubshop cam position sensor $155.00 Dubshop Ignition
Can do batch or sequential. It is pre-order now. I have it installed and my engine is on the stand. I'll add that to my picture list.

Have we hijacked this thread yet? If so, I'm sorry.

Carlos


Nope on the hijack. Lots of good information.

Would like to see if this could be done initially for fuel only for around $600. So far that seems possible assuming our time is free.
Dtjaden
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 01:27 PM) *

QUOTE(cgnj @ Oct 5 2016, 12:04 PM) *

This is the Dubshop cam position sensor $155.00 Dubshop Ignition
Can do batch or sequential. It is pre-order now. I have it installed and my engine is on the stand. I'll add that to my picture list.

Have we hijacked this thread yet? If so, I'm sorry.

Carlos


Nope on the hijack. Lots of good information.

Would like to see if this could be done initially for fuel only for around $600. So far that seems possible assuming our time is free.


Any RPM signal device that installs in the distributor or replaces the distributor immediately requires MS be used for both FI and ignition.
Mblizzard
First box of goodies!

Click to view attachment

Dtjaden
For anyone looking for a packaged solution for under $1,000 here is why it can't be done (even if you DIY). Here is what you need:

- Throttle body modify for the TPS - exchange price - $50
- Fuel injectors rebuilt and flow tested - exchange price $200
- Cylinder head temp sensor - $40
- RPM signal sensor $200
- Intake air temp sensor $20
- GM LS2 ignition coils, 4 required $100
- Throttle position sensor $30
- FI fuel pump and filters $150
- Fuel pressure regulator $100
- Microsquirt with harness - $370
- Injector driver board $100
- Fuel pump relay and wiring $15
- Power relay & wiring $20
- mounting board $10
- Fuse panel & fuses $20
- Various connectors - $50
- Package labor $500
-----------
Total. $1,975

Can it be done for less than this? Sure but not as a commercial product. And this price does not really equate to a commercial product because there is no profit margin. A minimal margin of 30% would equate to a selling price of $2,575.

Could you reduce the cost of or eliminate some of the line items? Sure, but again, not as a commercial product. You could source used LS 2 ignition coils, use the existing fuel pump and pressure regulator, skip the rebuild and testing of the fuel injectors or even do FI only. But you can't rely on used parts on a product for resale.

FI only, using the coil signal as the RPM trigger would cut about $300 from the cost but you would still have a margined selling price of $2,000.

Finally, you would need to take into account the engine configuration. 1.7, 1.8, 2.0L engines would each have unique tuning requirements. And beyond standard engine configurations such as increased displacement, compression ratio, camshaft, etc each adds a new tuning requirement. Packaged solutions are difficult if the installation environment is not controlled.

This is why the DubShop and Origional Customs sell their products at the prices they have set.

So, if 10 914 owners with stock 2.0L engines wanted to step up the plate (go SF Giants)
I would be happy to package a solution at the prices outlined above. Support past an initial period of 5 hours would be at $75 per hour. Or contact Mario at the DubShop or Mark at Origional Customs.





McMark
I don't think MicroSquirt does sequential injection. Just batch. Pair the cylinders like the factory did for the injection harness 1/4 and 3/2. This is better for injectors, but WRONG for ignition.

I tried using a signal from a distributor a long time ago and never got it to trigger reliably. When I would crank, the RPM readout on the laptop would jump all over, varying wildly, and illustrating how hard of a time MS was having reading the coil signal. When I installed a crank trigger setup, it was rock solid, even under just cranking. So much better. The distributor based wheel may work well. It's not ideal, and I haven't used one, but I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work well enough.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(McMark @ Oct 6 2016, 05:37 AM) *

I don't think MicroSquirt does sequential injection. Just batch. Pair the cylinders like the factory did for the injection harness 1/4 and 3/2. This is better for injectors, but WRONG for ignition.

I tried using a signal from a distributor a long time ago and never got it to trigger reliably. When I would crank, the RPM readout on the laptop would jump all over, varying wildly, and illustrating how hard of a time MS was having reading the coil signal. When I installed a crank trigger setup, it was rock solid, even under just cranking. So much better. The distributor based wheel may work well. It's not ideal, and I haven't used one, but I can't think of any reason it wouldn't work well enough.

Mark I am curious on the paring of the injectors. I have not read everything yet but I thought it was all batch fire meaning that all of the injectors fired at once. What you present seems to suggest the is some way to time each bank?
Mueller
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 09:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


Wow, that thread brings back some memories!

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=24043&hl=

If Jarred doesn't have anymore and has no interest in making more , i could whip a few out for you.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Mueller @ Oct 6 2016, 08:51 AM) *

QUOTE(jd74914 @ Oct 5 2016, 09:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Oct 5 2016, 08:48 AM) *

Hoping to not go the crank trigger rout because I have AV. Looking at the Min Can Sync as an option.


What is AV?

The Mini Cam Sync only gives you one pulse for determining engine phasing; for injection you really need to have more resolution. I guess you could technically use it (if the software allows), but you'd only get one trigger every 2 revolutions.

Something like this is much better. Just like the mini sync it can be installed without removing the engine. The difference is that it has multiple teeth so you could use it as a replacement crank trigger. I have one and Jarred really did a nice job making it.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=247915&hl=


Wow, that thread brings back some memories!

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...c=24043&hl=

If Jarred doesn't have anymore and has no interest in making more , i could whip a few out for you.


Not there yet but this does hold interest for me.
aircooledtechguy
I own, run and have installed virtually every product Mario offers at thedubshop. His products are the best I've used and his after sale service is second to none.

The mini cam sensor enables full sequential injection and/or spark. For most folks, it's not really necessary. Sequential injection can on the right motor get a couple more hp and slightly better mpgs, but where it really helps is on motors with high lift & high overlap/long duration cams. It greatly smooths the idle and low rpms. I'm using one with LS2 coils on my race motor that has a pretty wild cam and it idles like stock @ 8-900 rpms. It would never do that in batch mode.

IMHO I would go with one of Mario's own ECUs. It can be used to run sequential or batch injection/spark. It comes with 2 map sensors as well as several other features. It also includes an on-board WBO2 controller!! When I convert my bus to MS, it'll have a Dubshop ECU.

I would highly recommend using a 36-1 trigger wheels rather than a bosch dizzy for triggering spark. The only dizzy I have ever used that comes close to the accuracy of his kit is a Mallory Unlite. A factory Bosch dizzy is all over the place with timing. They can vary by as much as 5-7 degrees depending on the wear on the shaft. Bosch dizzys suck IMHO. There's way better out there these days, so why bother with them to control everything??
Dtjaden
QUOTE(aircooledtechguy @ Oct 6 2016, 09:40 PM) *

I own, run and have installed virtually every product Mario offers at thedubshop. His products are the best I've used and his after sale service is second to none.

The mini cam sensor enables full sequential injection and/or spark. For most folks, it's not really necessary. Sequential injection can on the right motor get a couple more hp and slightly better mpgs, but where it really helps is on motors with high lift & high overlap/long duration cams. It greatly smooths the idle and low rpms. I'm using one with LS2 coils on my race motor that has a pretty wild cam and it idles like stock @ 8-900 rpms. It would never do that in batch mode.

IMHO I would go with one of Mario's own ECUs. It can be used to run sequential or batch injection/spark. It comes with 2 map sensors as well as several other features. It also includes an on-board WBO2 controller!! When I convert my bus to MS, it'll have a Dubshop ECU.

I would highly recommend using a 36-1 trigger wheels rather than a bosch dizzy for triggering spark. The only dizzy I have ever used that comes close to the accuracy of his kit is a Mallory Unlite. A factory Bosch dizzy is all over the place with timing. They can vary by as much as 5-7 degrees depending on the wear on the shaft. Bosch dizzys suck IMHO. There's way better out there these days, so why bother with them to control everything??

agree.gif
Java2570
I've been talking to Mario @ Dubshop about doing a MS setup for my 2056 build and my list of items will be around $1700. I was contemplating going fuel only but after reading a lot and emailing with Mario, I've gotten on board with doing ignition as well. Nate's threads (and others) have been a good inspiration to do this kind of setup. Hopefully, I'll get it all bought this winter.
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