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Hans Jan
Hello,

Not having much luck with the Search function.

The car: 1972, with 103mm cylinders (2.3l), aftermarket cam and larger valves with double springs.

Fuel supply: Dual EMPI HPMX 44 Carburetors,
Jets: .55 Idle, 1.55 main, Air 1.75.

History: After car-fire engine was out, heads taken off and some studs and springs replaced. Changed to quieter exhaust.
Had trouble with dialing in the carburetors and changed the jets to the recommendations from EMPI (see above). It runs a lot better now.

Remaining complaint;
The car runs pretty good (especially above 2,800) RPM.
However; It takes me a while to leave after each stop (stop signs traffic lights etc) because the car want to stall. When I push the accelerator to quickly the RPM dips down, and car will die. Only when I ease on the paddle very gently, it will increase in RPM, and I can lift clutch at above 1,500 RPM.

Anyone here understands this issue?



Click to view attachment
exultant1
What's your timing? What distributor are you using?
Spoke
Are your acceleration jets working? Sounds like it could be going lean when you first open the throttle.
r_towle
I would certainly check the distributor, advance weights and dwell/timing first .
I personally prefer 40 mm on that motor with the smaller ventures which makes off the line (your issue) more smooth with a faster air flow going into the motor.

You can do this two ways, both will cost the same.
1) bring it to a shop with a Dyno to tune the carbs.
2) throw smaller venturis in to increase the velocity of the charge...leave the rest as is. The increased velocity will draw in more fuel.

With smaller vents you will top out sooner, but you will increase lower rpm response.
Keith914
My 1.365 liter type IV has twin 44 Webers. It runs well at sea level with 55 idles, 150 mains, 200 air corrections and 34 venturys, along with vacuum advance distributor with timing at 32 degrees at 3000 rpm. I have an Innovative A/F gauge to help in tuning -- A/F's range between depending on: idling 12.5, accelerating 11 - 12.5, cruising above 2500 rpm 13.5, decelerating 14 - 15.
Keith914
Also, you need to be sure the "dormant" choke pistons are fully seated in the off position. PM me for more info if needed.
PotterPorsche
I'm with Keith your mains are a a little fat. You need to get an lm2 wiifeband to remove the guessing. Aircooled.net I believe rents one. Also timing . Sounds like your getting too much gas or not enough timing, when you step on the pedal. What do the spark plugs look like?
Hans Jan
Wow guys that is quite a response. Most of which I do not yet completely understand. I will look into all of your suggestions and let you know.

Exulant: Not sure what the timing is. Some lousy shop tried to dial in my car; $3,800 and twelve weeks later I picked it back up and start tinkering myself.

Spoke:: Not sure what acceleration jet is. Carbs come standard with 0.50 Acceleration pump (but honestly; I don't even know what I just said).

T-rowle: Will smaller venturis make the car slower?

Keith914: your engine is really only 1.365 liter? Not sure yet if my carbs have a "dormant" choke piston (will investigate).

PotterPorsche: Lm2 wideband, this is getting really technical. Give me some time to figure out if I understand how to use one of those.

Thanks y'all.
You have given me plenty of things to look at.

Br,
r_towle
Smaller venturis limit the overall amount of air, but only at peak rpm. You may sacrifice 2-300 Rpms by using smaller venturis but you will gain lower rpm performance.
With carbs it's always a sacrifice somewhere.
r_towle
You want a wide band air/fuel meter with a gauge.
I use one with an 02 sensor stuffed up the tailpipe for tuning only.
Others install them perminantly by welding a bung into the exhaust.
Still more granular is to use EGT temps to monitor the mixture on each cylinder.
r_towle
The nice part about carbs, at least our Weber's, is you can do these changes without opening up the carbs, so you could have a larger setup for racing, and a smaller setup for around town normal driving....swap takes minutes
porschetub
The smaller vents will lose some power right @ the top but this will be in a range you rarely drive in,what you will see is a big improvement in bottom end power and response,any small loss in power will be soon forgotten once you have improved drivability .
It was common knowledge earlier on with these carbs that they were not well setup ''out of the box'',this has been covered by aircooled.net and documented on theSamba.com.
When tuning carbs always carry out a full ignition tune up first,good leads, plugs,cap,etc and correct timing,otherwise its a waste of time.

rhodyguy
Buy yourself a copy of the CBperformance weber manual. Read up and all of the suggestions will make sense. Don't go back to that shop.
Keith914
Oops, 2.365Liters!
dyckster
Hi Hans,
everyone is going to have an idea about what your problem is, myself included(accelerator adjustment)but you really need to educate yourself and learn how to fix it yourself.
Most mechanic nowadays are simply parts replacers, not diagnosing and problem solvers.
Buy the book, read it and understand it, then adjust stuff.
Make small adjustments, try it out between each adjustment. Its a great feeling when you figure it out yourself.
I'm not sure about the hpmx book, but I have the dellorto which is very much the same, and it has a section that says "if it does this then try this and this". that helped me immensely!
good luck
blair
stugray
My most recent weber challenges:
1 - My accel pump diaphragms did not match. One was barely pumping. I found a way to measure how much came out each and found them to be WAY off. Replaced both and it made a world of difference.

2 - If using pump gas (in the US) with ethanol: This WILL clog your jets. As the gas sits in the bowls the ethanol absorbs water, then the gas and ethanol evaporates leaving the water in the bowls to corrode the aluminum. This leads to white powdery deposits in the bowls which will clog the jets. FILTERS do NOT help. (the ethanol destroys the diaphragms in most of our fuel pressure regulators too - they will only last about 1 year in ethanol)

3 - Intake manifold leaks. Sometimes they would leak when hot, but not cold. Do the WD40, starting fluid, or water spray test AFTER the engine has warmed up. see if you can make the engine stumble spraying around the manifold bases, carb bases, and throttle shafts.
Hans Jan
From what I gather, it appears that I need to check the timing first before doing anything else. I have no clue how to do that, but will get a timing light and learn how to use it.

Distributor: Petronix (Flametrower) P/N D1867
Vacuum hose: No
Cam: Unknown (markings are "CWC")

How to determine what the timing should be set at, with this unknown cam?

Racer Chris
Use 28 degrees btdc @ 3500 rpm.

If I recall correctly, that engine has a pretty stout cam profile.
Between that and the large valves, you will probably never have good off-the-line performance without revving it up and dumping the clutch.
That said, try 170 mains and 220 air corr. jets.
Going bigger should shrink the flat spot.
You may also need to adjust the accelerator pump rods to squirt more fuel.
forrestkhaag
Also (Kieth) didn't we both notice exceptional improvments in my HPMX40's and your Weber 44's when we tapped and plugged the non-functional choke circuit ports?

Also / agree with the timing function needing to be right on the advance. Mine on the type 4 was 32-34 degrees...... otherwise power was suffering and I would experience lag on start off. beerchug.gif
Hans Jan
Thanks for your input.
I'm a little short on time to work on the car.
Instead of learning about timing, I ordered #34 Venturi's (current size is #36). Just because that was something I could do while doing groceries.

Not sure if this is related, but.
The car also comes slow "off its RPM". Meaning when it runs at high RPM and I need to slow down (with foot of the accelerator and clutch pushed in, to downshift), or stop. The engine keeps spinning high for 2 or 3 more seconds.

During up-shifts it sounds like I'm pushing the accelerator between shifts (not the case).

Like I said: Not sure if its related, but worth noting.
cgnj
QUOTE(Hans Jan @ Mar 29 2017, 08:53 PM) *

Thanks for your input.
I'm a little short on time to work on the car.
Instead of learning about timing, I ordered #34 Venturi's (current size is #36). Just because that was something I could do while doing groceries.

Not sure if this is related, but.
The car also comes slow "off its RPM". Meaning when it runs at high RPM and I need to slow down (with foot of the accelerator and clutch pushed in, to downshift), or stop. The engine keeps spinning high for 2 or 3 more seconds.

During up-shifts it sounds like I'm pushing the accelerator between shifts (not the case).

Like I said: Not sure if its related, but worth noting.


I bet you have hex bar linkage. Also webers are single handed. If you look at both of your carbs, you will see the one of them is not on the same end of the shaft as your linkage.

I admit it, I'm a dell fan boy. They have right and left handed castings so this potential problem is avoided. CB sells a mod kit for this.

There are other reasons that dells have the tuning advantage and its not flow out of the box. Thats a misconception because dell came with bigger vent that similar size webers. A clear exaple is a drla 40 came out of the box with 32 or 34 mm vents. The same weber came with 28mm.
Hans Jan
QUOTE(cgnj @ Mar 29 2017, 11:12 PM) *

[quote name='Hans Jan' post='2469862' date='Mar 29 2017, 08:53
I bet you have hex bar linkage. Also webers are single handed. If you look at both of your carbs, you will see the one of them is not on the same end of the shaft as your linkage.

I admit it, I'm a dell fan boy. They have right and left handed castings so this potential problem is avoided. CB sells a mod kit for this.

There are other reasons that dells have the tuning advantage and its not flow out of the box. Thats a misconception because dell came with bigger vent that similar size webers. A clear exaple is a drla 40 came out of the box with 32 or 34 mm vents. The same weber came with 28mm.


Indeed it has the Hex-bar linkage. Always imagine that it will be replaced with the Tangerine linkage setup.
Who is CB? And what does this setup look like?
Hans Jan
Received the 34mm Venturi's, and i stalled them today.
However; There is no change (car still prevers to die, rather then drive after a full stop).
Also assured that the idle jets are not glogged (not the case).

Eventough most in this community hate the hexbar, I do not think it is to blame in this case. Simply because I cannot get the two carbs to do the same thing with the bar disconnected.

According the EMPI instructions, the idle adjustment screw should only be out a little bit. But to get my car to idle, I have to screw them out very far (almost bottoming out).

When it idles, it is not possible to get the carbs to balance, with the airflow meter. The driverside carb is always flowing more.

The issue with the revs staying up for a prolonged period remains as well.
Racer Chris
QUOTE(Hans Jan @ Apr 4 2017, 01:18 PM) *


When it idles, it is not possible to get the carbs to balance, with the airflow meter. The driverside carb is always flowing more.


Use the throttle stop screws to balance between the two carburetors. Ie, screw in the passenger side stop screw to increase flow on that carb.
The idle mixture screws at the base are for matching the two throats on one carb.
Balance the two carbs with the linkage disconnected. Then readjust the drop links.
Hans Jan
QUOTE(Racer Chris @ Apr 4 2017, 01:45 PM) *

QUOTE(Hans Jan @ Apr 4 2017, 01:18 PM) *


When it idles, it is not possible to get the carbs to balance, with the airflow meter. The driverside carb is always flowing more.


Use the throttle stop screws to balance between the two carburetors. Ie, screw in the passenger side stop screw to increase flow on that carb.
The idle mixture screws at the base are for matching the two throats on one carb.
Balance the two carbs with the linkage disconnected. Then readjust the drop links.


That is exactly what I'm attempting to do. However the car dies before I get the flow to match left-to-right. The EMPI video says that it causes tuner frustration if these throttle stops are too far out. This is definitely true.

We need someone like you here in Houston.
Racer Chris
QUOTE(Hans Jan @ Apr 4 2017, 04:23 PM) *

QUOTE(Racer Chris @ Apr 4 2017, 01:45 PM) *

QUOTE(Hans Jan @ Apr 4 2017, 01:18 PM) *


When it idles, it is not possible to get the carbs to balance, with the airflow meter. The driverside carb is always flowing more.


Use the throttle stop screws to balance between the two carburetors. Ie, screw in the passenger side stop screw to increase flow on that carb.
The idle mixture screws at the base are for matching the two throats on one carb.
Balance the two carbs with the linkage disconnected. Then readjust the drop links.


That is exactly what I'm attempting to do. However the car dies before I get the flow to match left-to-right. The EMPI video says that it causes tuner frustration if these throttle stops are too far out. This is definitely true.

We need someone like you here in Houston.

raise the rpm by turning both stop screws in. Match the flow there before trying to back the rpm down to idle.
rhodyguy
Or use 1 idle speed adj screw to raise the idle. The other carb will follow suit and that carb's isac will be off the stop. When you now measure side to side flow you avoid an artificially balanced state that's dependent on the idle speed screws. One goes out of play once it's off the stop and the balanced state is dependent solely on the linkage. If it's out of wack the carbs will be too. If there is a bunch of side to side slop with the cross bar and worn heim joints, you will be struggling. Continuously.
Hans Jan
Keeping you up to date:

This weekend I should receive a timing-light in the mail (with an advance dial). At that time I will attempt to check or reset the timing (8 deg at idle and 27 to 34 deg at 3500 rpm). Not yet sure how I'm gonna do this, as I had the fan powder coated last summer, but I should be able to find a way to mark the TDC.

My Uncle (that raced his factory 914-6 in California) mentioned that I should install larger idle jets (0.65mm) to solve the idle problems. His thinking is that my cylinders displace almost 600cc and need more fuel to idle. Does that make sense to ya'll?
BigFour1973
I was having similar issues.
-Confirm the intake manifold to head connection is tight and without leaks.
-check if the idle circuit is gunked up. Mine were, so the carb body went in a sonic bath. That seems to have remedied it.
flyer86d
I agree with the above post. I had this happen on a customers car. Take the carb off, remove the idle jets and adjustment screws and blast all of the passages out with carb clean with the plastic wand on the spray nozzle. It worked for me. There was gunk in the idle passage in the carb.
Hans Jan
Installed larger (0.65mm) idler jets today.
This made a huge difference. I believe that it solves the problem.
As per Racer Chris (and my uncles) advise I have ordered larger main jets (0.170) and air inlets (2.20) to make it complete.

Have been reading a book about Weber carbs, which is really helpful.

Unfortunately I couldn't finish my test drive and dial it in some more, because the ignition switch broke. Have ordered the parts I need from AA (and a starter relay from Amazon).

In the tech-articles is a nice description for how to replace the ignition switch on later models. Is anyone aware of such an article for the 1972 model year?

Br,
Han Jan
Keith914
Agree with Forrest.
Racer Chris
65 idles will probably make it a bit rich at part throttle, but that's better than too lean.
Hans Jan

It's done. With the new jets, the car is running way better.
No more stalling at each stop and smooth transition between idle and driving.
Car runs nicely from below 1,000 up to 5,000 rpm.
At 5,000 rpm the rev-limiter kicks in, like throwing out a boat anchor.

Final jetting:
Venturi:36
Idle: 0.65
Main: 1.70
Air: 2.20

Special thanks to all that have contributed to the solution. You know who you are, and "YOU ROCK".

There is a little back-firing left, at deceleration. But I'm not going to let that keep me from driving and enjoying the ride. Loving every minute, a left hand turn at the neighborhood round-about is just a 495 degree turn for me now. Turns out Im only 12 years old, stuck in this 47year old body.

Consider this tread closed.
Next up: changing ignition switch.

Btw: Once the car looks worthy (might be a while) I will defenitely put the 914world.com sticker on the rear window. Without this community I would have ditched this car long ago.

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