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SKL1
Noticed recently the starter acting up on my '73. I have the stronger starter (can't remember where I got it as it's been a few years, but the same one on my '71 I got from Alan Johnson Racing way back when) and every so often I just get the "click" with no start- sometimes when cold, ocassionally when warm.
In the old days (and I mean really old days, back in the '70's) when that happened you'd hit the solenoid with a hammer and that would take care of it.

This starter is probably 5-6 years old, but used pretty sparingly... now I'm a little nervous to take it somewhere if I'm not on a hill!

Eventually it will start but seems pretty unpredictable. Any ideas???
Rand
Clean the battery and ground strap connections. It's amazing how often a dirty connection at the negative battery terminal causes the "click" without crank.
Tom_T
agree.gif

And also check the transaxle to underside of trunk floor ground strap & connections too.

There are those starter relay kits too, which will bring direct power to your starter. My mechanic did a similar mod on our `88 Westfalia.

All VWs, Audis & Porsches from that era suffer form that malady, especially now that they're 40-60 years old with old copper wire which now has more resistance. dry.gif

Oh .... & carry that Hammer & a pad or towel to lie on the ground while tapping! biggrin.gif

PS - per my guy of 41+ years who was factory trained on 914s & other V/A/P cars - now it's more a matter of old wiring, than of bad or weak starters. So maybe it's time for some of Jeff Bowlsby's rebuilt/restored wiring harnesses for your engine bay?

beerchug.gif
Tom
///////
porschetub
Starter relay is partly a bandage for a broken leg ,yes it takes load off the electrics but really isn't that hard to pull a starter and clean it ,providing you have a good ignition switch and all connections to starter are 100% to said starter.
I don't expect an aftermarket starter to last as long as a genuine one buts that's my thoughts.
Good luck.
porschetub
Double post....
Mark Henry
QUOTE(porschetub @ Mar 27 2017, 01:43 AM) *

Starter relay is partly a bandage for a broken leg ,yes it takes load off the electrics but really isn't that hard to pull a starter and clean it ,providing you have a good ignition switch and all connections to starter are 100% to said starter.
I don't expect an aftermarket starter to last as long as a genuine one buts that's my thoughts.
Good luck.


I heard this argument many times before, to me it's a very thin slice of truth in the middle of a bs.gif sandwich.

And these days I'd do it just to take the load off the ignition switch, the new repop switches are total garbage.

YMMV
GregAmy
Agree with Mark. There's just no valid reason to power the starter solenoid through the ignition switch. Relay it.
76-914
Got to agree.gif w/ Mark & Greg. beerchug.gif
GregAmy
I think we need to stop calling this a "hot start relay kit". It's not a "hot start" problem, it's a "shitty electrical design" problem that just so happens to rear its ugly head more often when the car is hot because the starter solenoid is pulling more amps.

I don't know if this is the original poster's problem. No one can say that unless more hands-on troubleshooting is done. But we should all be installing this upgrade, simply because it's a better design.

So I hereby declare this product to now be called "the shitty electrical design" kit, which can be solved for $26 shipped from Amazon (The Bird has it for <$30, free shipping if in a $79 or more order).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001COAX78/

Edit: Additional top tip. Install the fuseholder where you can reach it without soiling a nice pair of work khakis and golf shirt. Yes, I've popped the 15A fuse on mine, a couple of times (tells you how much current that thing draws). And yup, I learned after the first one and re-positioned it into the engine compartment.
SKL1
All my wiring to starter is clean or essentially new and I already have the high torque starter, so I'll be looking at adding that relay kit...
Didn't have the problem until I started driving the car a little more this late winter. Only happens occasionally but makes you nervous when you're stopping for gas, etc. Kind of embarassing, especially after someone has walked up to the car and complimented it, which happens about every time I'm filling it up. I'm amazed how many people USED to have a 914... smile.gif
HalfMoon
QUOTE(GregAmy @ Mar 27 2017, 05:37 PM) *

I think we need to stop calling this a "hot start relay kit". It's not a "hot start" problem, it's a "shitty electrical design" problem that just so happens to rear its ugly head more often when the car is hot because the starter solenoid is pulling more amps.

I don't know if this is the original poster's problem. No one can say that unless more hands-on troubleshooting is done. But we should all be installing this upgrade, simply because it's a better design.

So I hereby declare this product to now be called "the shitty electrical design" kit, which can be solved for $26 shipped from Amazon (The Bird has it for <$30, free shipping if in a $79 or more order).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001COAX78/

Edit: Additional top tip. Install the fuseholder where you can reach it without soiling a nice pair of work khakis and golf shirt. Yes, I've popped the 15A fuse on mine, a couple of times (tells you how much current that thing draws). And yup, I learned after the first one and re-positioned it into the engine compartment.


I ordered that relay kit from Amazon. It was TOTALLY bogus and wasted my time. They do not send the 'kit", just the relay. $25 for a $5 relay? Rippoff city.
GregAmy
LAME! Definitely complain to Amazon, as WR1 is supposed to be the kit.

Search "WR1-int" on The Bird.


Mark Henry
QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Apr 11 2017, 10:21 AM) *

QUOTE(GregAmy @ Mar 27 2017, 05:37 PM) *

I think we need to stop calling this a "hot start relay kit". It's not a "hot start" problem, it's a "shitty electrical design" problem that just so happens to rear its ugly head more often when the car is hot because the starter solenoid is pulling more amps.

I don't know if this is the original poster's problem. No one can say that unless more hands-on troubleshooting is done. But we should all be installing this upgrade, simply because it's a better design.

So I hereby declare this product to now be called "the shitty electrical design" kit, which can be solved for $26 shipped from Amazon (The Bird has it for <$30, free shipping if in a $79 or more order).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001COAX78/

Edit: Additional top tip. Install the fuseholder where you can reach it without soiling a nice pair of work khakis and golf shirt. Yes, I've popped the 15A fuse on mine, a couple of times (tells you how much current that thing draws). And yup, I learned after the first one and re-positioned it into the engine compartment.


I ordered that relay kit from Amazon. It was TOTALLY bogus and wasted my time. They do not send the 'kit", just the relay. $25 for a $5 relay? Rippoff city.


To me the Bosch relay is a POS for this application, likely the #1 reason some say the relay doesn't work well. It's a horn relay and it's not waterproof.

Get the Ford solenoid, suck it up, quit fuching whining about it being a Ford part and do it right the first time. dry.gif
HalfMoon
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Apr 11 2017, 10:35 AM) *

QUOTE(HalfMoon @ Apr 11 2017, 10:21 AM) *

QUOTE(GregAmy @ Mar 27 2017, 05:37 PM) *

I think we need to stop calling this a "hot start relay kit". It's not a "hot start" problem, it's a "shitty electrical design" problem that just so happens to rear its ugly head more often when the car is hot because the starter solenoid is pulling more amps.

I don't know if this is the original poster's problem. No one can say that unless more hands-on troubleshooting is done. But we should all be installing this upgrade, simply because it's a better design.

So I hereby declare this product to now be called "the shitty electrical design" kit, which can be solved for $26 shipped from Amazon (The Bird has it for <$30, free shipping if in a $79 or more order).

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001COAX78/

Edit: Additional top tip. Install the fuseholder where you can reach it without soiling a nice pair of work khakis and golf shirt. Yes, I've popped the 15A fuse on mine, a couple of times (tells you how much current that thing draws). And yup, I learned after the first one and re-positioned it into the engine compartment.


I ordered that relay kit from Amazon. It was TOTALLY bogus and wasted my time. They do not send the 'kit", just the relay. $25 for a $5 relay? Rippoff city.


To me the Bosch relay is a POS for this application, likely the #1 reason some say the relay doesn't work well. It's a horn relay and it's not waterproof.

Get the Ford solenoid, suck it up, quit fuching whining about it being a Ford part and do it right the first time. dry.gif

I'm liking that idea better. Seems like a robust solution. I have to admit, the data here on World seems to indicate that it's overkill, but seeing as where I have a high torque starter (and a sbc) and my battery is forward mounted (with a long cable run), it'll be the best solution.
What do we think about this one?
https://www.amazon.com/Standard-Motor-Produ...+SS571+solenoid
or do we like the Motorcraft part best?
https://www.amazon.com/Motorcraft-SW5181-Ne...tarter+solenoid
I suspect either will do as only three poles seem to be needed. I wonder if a real Motorcraft part is gonna be substantially better than a knock off?
Click to view attachment
worn
QUOTE(porschetub @ Mar 26 2017, 09:43 PM) *

Starter relay is partly a bandage for a broken leg ,yes it takes load off the electrics but really isn't that hard to pull a starter and clean it ,providing you have a good ignition switch and all connections to starter are 100% to said starter.
I don't expect an aftermarket starter to last as long as a genuine one buts that's my thoughts.
Good luck.


That may be... But after replacing the starter more than once I learned that the wire gauge to and from the ignition switch is a bit thin for the work of the solenoid. Yeah it is a relay to pull a relay but the solenoid draws a lot of juice.
GregAmy
The Ford relay is prob a better solution but the Bird kit is the easy button. But I'd want to know the pull-down current for that solenoid.

The stock starter solenoid pulls some good current; mine keeps popping a 20A fuse on the Bird kit (even though it came with a 15A). And not just when hot. Could be a dying starter... regardless, imagine all that current going all the way up front and all that way back, through flimsy 40-yr-old wiring and a plastic switch...? This should have been relayed when it was designed.
76-914
FWIW and IIRC, the Ford solenoid requires ~3.9v to actuate where as the Bosch requires ~9v. beerchug.gif
Mark Henry
QUOTE(76-914 @ Apr 13 2017, 10:11 AM) *

FWIW and IIRC, the Ford solenoid requires ~3.9v to actuate where as the Bosch requires ~9v. beerchug.gif


agree.gif About right, but the Standard SS-571 Starter Solenoid mentioned earlier in this thread is a 6V solenoid and it takes even less volts to kick it in.
Amps for sure less than 8amp, I've never heard of anyone blowing a fuse, I've never seen it happen. I've never used or seen the need for an in-line fuse for the Ford solenoid.


This 6V solenoid works fine with 12V and is my preferred solenoid. Ask for a pre-1967 ford fender mount starter solenoid at your FLAPS.
Even Slits approved of this solenoid. shades.gif
Jeffs9146
QUOTE(worn @ Apr 11 2017, 11:45 AM) *

QUOTE(porschetub @ Mar 26 2017, 09:43 PM) *

Starter relay is partly a bandage for a broken leg ,yes it takes load off the electrics but really isn't that hard to pull a starter and clean it ,providing you have a good ignition switch and all connections to starter are 100% to said starter.
I don't expect an aftermarket starter to last as long as a genuine one buts that's my thoughts.
Good luck.


That may be... But after replacing the starter more than once I learned that the wire gauge to and from the ignition switch is a bit thin for the work of the solenoid. Yeah it is a relay to pull a relay but the solenoid draws a lot of juice.


The ford relay is a bypass to the starter relay, not a solenoid to pull a solenoid like the Bosch is. It sends direct 12v to the main starter power circuit and requires less ign power to trigger.
SKL1
I ordered the "kit" from Pelican and all I got was a relay as well- just came yesterday so I have to call them to return it. Now their website says the kit is out of stock!

Maybe a Ford part is in my future too...
GregAmy
QUOTE(Jeffs9146 @ Apr 13 2017, 01:04 PM) *


The ford relay is a bypass to the starter relay, not a solenoid to pull a solenoid like the Bosch is. It sends direct 12v to the main starter power circuit and requires less ign power to trigger.

It's overkill for the job, for sure. In the end, the whole point of the activity is to discontinue powering the starter solenoid through the ignition switch. Whatever it takes... :shrug:
SKL1
Well, ordered the "kit" from both Amazon and Pelican and all I got was a relay! Looks like the Ford part will be the next attempt!

I notice in one of the wiring diagrams there is a big wire from the "solenoid" to the + battery terminal, and there isn't on the other one. I assume you need the wire to the battery, correct? ( I hate electrical issues!!!)
Jeffs9146
QUOTE(SKL1 @ Apr 15 2017, 05:42 PM) *

Well, ordered the "kit" from both Amazon and Pelican and all I got was a relay! Looks like the Ford part will be the next attempt!

I notice in one of the wiring diagrams there is a big wire from the "solenoid" to the + battery terminal, and there isn't on the other one. I assume you need the wire to the battery, correct? ( I hate electrical issues!!!)


There are two ways to wire the Ford relay. One is large red from the battery on one large post and the other large post to the starter post, ign yellow to the trigger post on the Ford relay. The other is the diagram way which is very similar to the Bosch where the relay triggers the starter relay.
Mark Henry
Ummm....you do realize that the battery post and the big post on the starter is joined by a big fuchs'n wire basically making it the same thing.
My bug the big wire goes from the battery to the starter to the + on the alternator.
It's all the main positive.

You don't need a wire from the battery...it's already there.
euro911
agree.gif with the Ford type relay.

I recently converted my 5k portable generator to electric start, and even though the starter push-button is rated at 30 amps, I installed the relay ... mainly because I will also be triggering the generator start with a closure signal from the solar system's inverter (should the back-up batteries fall below a programmed voltage threshold).

I think the relay was about $20. from O'Reilly's Auto Parts (with a lifetime warranty) cool_shades.gif

IPB Image
HalfMoon
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Apr 15 2017, 11:52 PM) *

Ummm....you do realize that the battery post and the big post on the starter is joined by a big fuchs'n wire basically making it the same thing.
My bug the big wire goes from the battery to the starter to the + on the alternator.
It's all the main positive.

You don't need a wire from the battery...it's already there.


Well, I'm nicely confused now.
Is this a valid wiring diagram or no?
Click to view attachment

Or is the one Mark Henry posted years ago the tits?
Click to view attachment
Mark Henry
Do it my way, carefully bend the mount bracket, careful not to stress the bracket to the plastic solenoid housing and enlarge the hole and it will bolt right to the bottom starter stud/nut. Buy or make a male with ring hole quick connect. The only thing my drawing doesn't show is the stock heavy wire battery to starter that's already there .
The bracket must be grounded for the solenoid to work.

Not a single hole is drilled or wire cut.

I don't agree with the top drawing because it's running the heavy wire to the solenoid then to the starter. A lot of heat is generated at that connection and that could become a failure point. It will work and the Ford solenoid should be fine, but why tempt fate when you don't have to.
Takes a poopload of amps to turn over a starter.
KELTY360
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Apr 16 2017, 07:27 AM) *

Do it my way, carefully bend the mount bracket, careful not to stress the bracket to the plastic solenoid housing and enlarge the hole and it will bolt right to the bottom starter stud/nut. Buy or make a male with ring hole quick connect. The only thing my drawing doesn't show is the stock heavy wire battery to starter that's already there .
The bracket must be grounded for the solenoid to work.

Not a single hole is drilled or wire cut.

I don't agree with the top drawing because it's running the heavy wire to the solenoid then to the starter. A lot of heat is generated at that connection and that could become a failure point. It will work and the Ford solenoid should be fine, but why tempt fate when you don't have to.
Takes a poopload of amps to turn over a starter.


agree.gif

Mark's method is clean, simple and works great. No wires are cut or holes drilled so it's easily reversible although I can't imagine why you would. Never had a starting problem since I followed that diagram and I did the same installation on a friends 914 with the same results. Those Ford solenoids are a dime a dozen at old car swap meets...well, maybe $5 but offer $2 and that will usually do it.
euro911
Click to view attachment
HalfMoon
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Apr 16 2017, 11:27 AM) *

Do it my way, carefully bend the mount bracket, careful not to stress the bracket to the plastic solenoid housing and enlarge the hole and it will bolt right to the bottom starter stud/nut. Buy or make a male with ring hole quick connect. The only thing my drawing doesn't show is the stock heavy wire battery to starter that's already there .
The bracket must be grounded for the solenoid to work.

Not a single hole is drilled or wire cut.

I don't agree with the top drawing because it's running the heavy wire to the solenoid then to the starter. A lot of heat is generated at that connection and that could become a failure point. It will work and the Ford solenoid should be fine, but why tempt fate when you don't have to.
Takes a poopload of amps to turn over a starter.


Good stuff Mark :-)
What gauge wire do you think for this application?
TY
D
SKL1
Well, my Ford solenoid is coming from Amazon so I'll be referring to these diagrams this week for sure!

Great info guys!
Jeffs9146
QUOTE(euro911 @ Apr 16 2017, 12:43 PM) *


I agree with this method but there is no need for the coil wire!
Mark Henry
QUOTE(euro911 @ Apr 16 2017, 03:43 PM) *


Sorry I don't agree.

That is how it's done on a late model Ford, this will not work on a 914. The ford starter is not switched, take away the solenoid and the ford starter would run engaged continuously. I believe the Ford starter the bendix is a simple inertia engage where the Bosch starter is a solenoid therefore electromagnetic engagement of the bendix drive.
I guess you could put a simple jumper wire in, but why if the factory + cable is already there.

Also I agree you don't need or want the wire to the coil.

KISS, don't add unnecessary complexity to the circuit.
SKL1
OK, I know we're beating a dead horse here, but what gauge wire for wires from new Ford solenoid to starter? The heavy should be 10 or 12? Ignition wire from solenoid to starter 14 or 16?

Gonna wire this up tomorrow...
euro911
The heavy wire needs to be a large gauge wire to carry the load current. I believe the OEM wire from the battery is at least #2 AWG. (Verify against the OEM wire gauge from the battery).

You can reuse the original (yellow) wire from the ignition switch (which I believe is a #10 AWG), attach it to the small 'S' terminal on the new relay.

I modified/annotated a diagram found in the WWW

Click to view attachment
Mark Henry
QUOTE(euro911 @ Apr 21 2017, 02:29 AM) *

The heavy wire needs to be a large gauge wire to carry the load current. I believe the OEM wire from the battery is at least #2 AWG. (Verify against the OEM wire gauge from the battery).

You can reuse the original (yellow) wire from the ignition switch (which I believe is a #10 AWG), attach it to the small 'S' terminal on the new relay.

I modified/annotated a diagram found in the WWW

Click to view attachment

Sigh.... I'll never understand why people need to make something simple more complex. rolleyes.gif
euro911
I think this diagram doesn't leave any unanswered questions for someone who has never done it.

Sigh ... The internet has a lot of wiring diagrams that don't show all the details poke.gif
Hans Jan
The ignition switch on my car is dying as well.
I have ordered the Amazon relay (although I just read here that it comes as a relay only, and not a complete kit (bummer)).

Also ordered a new ignition switch from AA.

One of the tech articles describes nicely how to install a new ignition switch in newer models. Is anyone here aware of such an article for the 1972 model year?

euro911
They're all the same
SKL1
OK, I'm wiring this thing up and don't want to fry anything. Looking at my set up, the big red wire from the battery AND the slightly smaller red wire from the wiring loom go to one of the big studs on the Ford part, correct?

Then a big red wire goes from the other big stud on the Ford part to the starter along with the big wire from the battery. Then the yellow ignition wire goes on the little stud?




Click to view attachment
Spoke
QUOTE(SKL1 @ Apr 22 2017, 08:12 PM) *

OK, I'm wiring this thing up and don't want to fry anything. Looking at my set up, the big red wire from the battery AND the slightly smaller red wire from the wiring loom go to one of the big studs on the Ford part, correct?

Then a big red wire goes from the other big stud on the Ford part to the starter along with the big wire from the battery. Then the yellow ignition wire goes on the little stud?


It's hard to say which wires go where since several schematics were shown on the previous page. Which one are you following? Please re-post the schematic you're following.

The schematic is your connection guide. Follow your schematic and you will complete the installation correctly. Make a paper copy of your schematic and as you make connections, trace the wires out on the schematic with a colored pen/pencil/crayon so you know you've made that connection. When all wires are colored in then you are done.

The heavy wire to from the battery must go directly to the starter, not the relay. This wire is the most crucial wire for the starter to have maximum power transfer. A wire the size of the wire going to the bendix can be run from the battery cable at the starter to the relay. The relay current in the bendix should be relatively low (less than 10A) whereas the starter current could be 100 to 200+ amps.

As Mark mentioned, something about this installation seems to be overly complicated for a relatively simple modification.
SKL1
Spoke- all the different schematics do get confusing, but I planned on Mark's. Just didn't know what to do with the other red wire from the loom that is currently on the starter solenoid with the big red wire from the battery.

Hope Mark chimes in again to help someone getting more confused the more he goes through this thread!!!


(I've enlarged the hole on the new bracket to mount on the lower starter bolt like Mark suggests. None of the new wires will need to go very far.)
euro911
The yellow wire comes from the ignition switch and connects to the small post on the Ford relay, marked 'S'

The smaller gauge red wire comes from the alternator and sends the charging voltage to the battery. It needs to stay connected to the '+' battery cable, so connect it to one of the large posts on the Ford relay along with the '+' cable from the battery (as shown in all of the diagrams posted).

There is some disagreement on how to connect the remaining large gauge cable from the other large post on the Ford relay to the starter and the smaller gauge wire to the starter solenoid ... take your pick ... either method will work.
Mark Henry
Ok...I have a solenoid in my bus and my /6 and trans on my lift cart, I'll do a complete install today and post a how to.
Spoke
Here's the entire starter circuit schematic with the Ford relay. There should only be 5 wires.

Wire Connections:

Existing 914 Wires:

o The heavy red cable from the battery goes directly to the large lug on the starter.

o The smaller red cable from the alternator goes directly to the large lug on the starter.

o The yellow wire from the ignition switch goes to the "S" terminal of the Ford relay

New Wires:

o Red (or any color) wire 12-16GA goes from large lug on the starter to one of the big lugs on the Ford relay; either lug will work.

o Black (or any color wire 12-16GA goes from one of the big lugs on the Ford relay to the Bendix Coil on the starter. either big lug on the Ford relay will work.


Mark Henry
Enough of the armchair experts....my way of installing the Ford solenoid.
http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?showtopic=308904
euro911
The starting issue stems from the ignition switch circuit (complete round-trip with the yellow wire). All the diagrams that have been posted address that issue.

The reason for utilizing a Ford relay is that it takes less current on the primary coil windings to complete the connection between the contacts (large studs) when energized. Those contacts are specifically designed to switch heavy amperage (current).

Whether one connects the battery cable directly to the starter's large stud or runs it through the relay, both methods cure the problem ... in other words, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

Retired electrical engineer (aka: armchair expert) rolleyes.gif
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