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jfort
I doubt that there will be anything earth shattering or even beyond common knowledge, but if only to document this project, here goes:

This is a big, first time project for me, an attorney and mechanic wannabe. My factory six with a 2.5L engine was missing. Turns out there was only 75% compression in #1 and it was leaking through the inlet valve. Auto Assets in Powell OH diagnosed and my friend and mechanic, Jay Kjoller confirmed. Thankfully, Jay, an experienced air cooled engine builder and racer who lives nearby agreed to take on the project and to let me help. I got the engine out and delivered it to Jay last week.

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We started the disassembly yesterday.

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Learned some things about the engine. It has an early aluminum case with Mahle 90mm pistons and Nikasil cylinders. Pretty sure they are 2.7L. It has a later 3-ribbed oil pump, which Jay says is sufficient for what I do.

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The pistons have been lightened, which Jay said was unusual.

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We expected to see something that would explain the problem with #1. Other than some carbon accumulation on the head where the valve closes there was nothing. But, having gone this far, we decided to go from top end rebuild to a full rebuild and we split the case.

Considerations. I think the engine was built into a 2.5 in the early 70's given SCCA classes at the time, but it is just a guess. My prior owner was Jim Chambers in Oregon. He bought the car in 2001 from Werks 2 in in Burbank CA, which was started a long ago by Harry Bieker (Bieker Engineering) and continued by his son, Galen Bieker. I exchanged emails with Galen but he couldn't remember any details that would help us decide how far to go on the rebuild. But Jay said whoever built it did a good job and he can recognize the approximate build date from the materials used, e.g., paper gaskets and 3 thin copper seals at the bottom of the cylinders. What I would call the wear points, (bearings, cam lobes, valve tappets, etc.) looked to be in good shape. But I wanted to be sure.

Jays says he has had good experience with something other than the existing E cam, a Solex cam? that is a little more aggressive. So, we are going to either source that or investigate grinding the E cam.

Click to view attachment

Friday, I will wash all the oily parts. Heads, valves, piston rods go to the machine shop, which is nearby. What can go into a hot bath tank will go there. What can be powder coated will go there. The air shroud, which is green, needs something. Not sure what to do about that.
mepstein
Early aluminum case - score!
Optimusglen
Are you running MFI or carbs?

I ask because I'm rebuilding a 2.2T carb motor right now and was considering trying to source a set of E cams for mine. If you're going to be regrinding anyway, would you consider a cam swap with some cash on my end? My T cams are in perfect shape.
jfort
The engine has Weber carbs. Let me see what the plan for the carbs is. Either way at my end, perhaps we can work a deal.
krazykonrad
popcorn[1].gif

Looks like an interesting project. Good luck with it.

Konrad (fellow attorney and mechanic wannabe)
Perry Kiehl
There's a lot more cam options today, than there was in the early 70's.

You'll have a good time putting this together!
Edward Blume
Some additional HP sounds like its in your future. shades.gif
GeorgeRud
Lot's of folks used the 2.7 CIS pistons and cylinders with the 66mm crank to get 2.5 liters. Unless the pistons were changed, this combination had a very low compression ratio (7.5/1). Hopefully yours has some higher compression pistons, but might be worth checking while it's apart.
davehg
Another attorney and wanna-be mechanic also rebuilding, this time a 2.7l. My engine guru says to use a solex cam for what will be a street car, not an auto crosser.
Rob-O
Knew Jay way back in the late 80's. He built my engine. I bought it from a fella named Yalman Balta. I'll bet Jay would remember him.
burton73
QUOTE(jfort @ Oct 4 2017, 08:18 AM) *

I doubt that there will be anything earth shattering or even beyond common knowledge, but if only to document this project, here goes:

This is a big, first time project for me, an attorney and mechanic wannabe. My factory six with a 2.5L engine was missing. Turns out there was only 75% compression in #1 and it was leaking through the inlet valve. Auto Assets in Powell OH diagnosed and my friend and mechanic, Jay Kjoller confirmed. Thankfully, Jay, an experienced air cooled engine builder and racer who lives nearby agreed to take on the project and to let me help. I got the engine out and delivered it to Jay last week.

Click to view attachment

We started the disassembly yesterday.

Click to view attachment

Learned some things about the engine. It has an early aluminum case with Mahle 90mm pistons and Nikasil cylinders. Pretty sure they are 2.7L. It has a later 3-ribbed oil pump, which Jay says is sufficient for what I do.

Click to view attachment

The pistons have been lightened, which Jay said was unusual.

Click to view attachment

We expected to see something that would explain the problem with #1. Other than some carbon accumulation on the head where the valve closes there was nothing. But, having gone this far, we decided to go from top end rebuild to a full rebuild and we split the case.

Considerations. I think the engine was built into a 2.5 in the early 70's given SCCA classes at the time, but it is just a guess. My prior owner was Jim Chambers in Oregon. He bought the car in 2001 from Werks 2 in in Burbank CA, which was started a long ago by Harry Bieker (Bieker Engineering) and continued by his son, Galen Bieker. I exchanged emails with Galen but he couldn't remember any details that would help us decide how far to go on the rebuild. But Jay said whoever built it did a good job and he can recognize the approximate build date from the materials used, e.g., paper gaskets and 3 thin copper seals at the bottom of the cylinders. What I would call the wear points, (bearings, cam lobes, valve tappets, etc.) looked to be in good shape. But I wanted to be sure.

Jays says he has had good experience with something other than the existing E cam, a Solex cam? that is a little more aggressive. So, we are going to either source that or investigate grinding the E cam.

Click to view attachment

Friday, I will wash all the oily parts. Heads, valves, piston rods go to the machine shop, which is nearby. What can go into a hot bath tank will go there. What can be powder coated will go there. The air shroud, which is green, needs something. Not sure what to do about that.

I am an old friend and customer of Harry Bieker from 1978 and having Harry do the machining and balancing of my S engine back in that time, the rods where ground to weigh the same as well as the big buck balancing job. Galen and I where buddy’s and I used to ski with him. He builds a great engine. Back then in 1978 a 911 was 30 hours of labor at $30. = $900 Labor. Plus all parts and machine work and that cost a lot.

Bob B
mepstein
I think today's number is 40 hours but that doesn't take into account the 100+ hours for disassembly, cleaning, powder coating, sourcing parts, sending parts to the machine shop, etc.
Mark Henry
QUOTE(mepstein @ Oct 4 2017, 06:37 PM) *

I think today's number is 40 hours but that doesn't take into account the 100+ hours for disassembly, cleaning, powder coating, sourcing parts, sending parts to the machine shop, etc.

agree.gif Exactly, start adding up the total hours.
Mark Henry
I'd consider dumping the pistons, get the cylinders plated and put in a new set of JE 9.5CR pistons. Then match the cam to engine.

This would really wake the engine up.
gereed75
Highly recommend the mod Solex cam (DC30). Peak power around 6200 rpm, pulls hard to 7200 and makes very gratifying torque from 2500 up. Not sure if they can be ground on E cams or not. With those, S ported heads and 9.5 JE pistons you would probably be making 200 - 210 hp.

That is a favorite combo of Henry Schmidt at
Supertech Performance. Check his build threads on Pelican. Great motor in a six !!
jfort
Turns out I was wrong. It is a 70.4 mm crank with 2.7L pistons and cylinders. Not the short stroker I thought it was. Perhaps someone was making a 2.7RS - like engine with a milder E cam.
Dr Evil
Hey neighbor! Cool build. I didn't know people used CIS pistons for anything but CIS as someone stated. I like Mark's recommendations.
Mark Henry
QUOTE(jfort @ Oct 5 2017, 08:37 PM) *

Turns out I was wrong. It is a 70.4 mm crank with 2.7L pistons and cylinders. Not the short stroker I thought it was. Perhaps someone was making a 2.7RS - like engine with a milder E cam.


Trade the crank if you want a short stroke.
2.7 std/std magnifluxed crank is a easy sell on the bird.

jfort
Jay recommends staying with the German Mahle pistons and I’ll stay with the crank we started with. Will change to the Solex cams however.

Distributor needs rebuilt. It is too sloppy. The heads, piston rods, case halves and new valve guides delivered to the machine shop. Engine tin headed to body guy for blasting and black power coating. I’ll have him weld patches for holes in tin. Also going to have him make the shroud look as good as possible in red. Powder coating alternator strap and air filter covers black. Jay is ordering bearings, fasteners, etc. can’t wait to begin putting it all together.
Cairo94507
Excellent project. popcorn[1].gif
jfort
update on the build

got the engine tin and the engine shroud done, black and red, respectively and a big improvement.

after the Eric Shea/Jay Leno show, I started giving a twin spark ignition more thought. I was going to have to spend money to refurbish my OEM distributor and I was going to go to an optical trigger. more reliable, I think, but still a pain to get there being so close to the fire wall.

long story short, we are going to do a crank fire and twin spark. Jay has the jig to drill the hole. (Anyone have a suggestion as to who, east of the Mississippi can drill it?) I figure it will be reliable and easier to tune and it's what Jay has on his race car.

as for the cam, apparently there is one a little more aggressive than the Solex, an "S special" or something?, that Jay is going to look into.

can't wait to start the rebuild after the turn of the year
Mark Henry
On the twin plug carbs with a trigger ignition here's a couple more options.

Megajolt Jr uses common Ford EDIS components that you have to source from a scrapyard. missing tooth trigger
https://wiki.autosportlabs.com/MegaJolt_Lite_Jr.

SDS has an ignition only system, more money but it's new and more complete, IIRC it uses subaru coils. hall effect trigger
http://www.sdsefi.com/cpiauto.htm


A bit spendy but this company has a missing tooth trigger wheel that come with their pulley
http://www.goingsuperfast.com/FORPORSCHE.html



There's a few more of these type of systems on the market.
jfort
thanks, Mark!
jd74914
I believe you can also use Microsquirt now for 6 cylinder wasted spark control. It's a bit more expensive than Megajolt, but wouldn't require the super old EDIS components, or the specialized trigger of the SDS system. You'd just be running a few coils and basically whatever crank trigger you wanted.

A number of people on the Bird Board have been using Denso 90080-19016 COPs. They are relatively inexpensive on eBay and I believe have their own internal ignitors so you wouldn't need any coil drivers (**have to check my notes so this might not be 100% and they may need drivers**). Not the same look as the firewall mounted coils with long wires or 12 plug dizzy, but pretty clean/slick setup IMHO.

Just some more things to think about. smile.gif

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Larmo63
I have a 2.4 7R cased motor with Daugherty cams DC-30, we ported to 36mm and I'm using the Clewett crank-fire ignition.Click to view attachment
Justinp71
popcorn[1].gif

My uncle has a 2.5L in his '70 911, I was lucky enough to drive it a few times as a teenager. Man that is an awesome motor, so much instant power on demand. Got me hooked on flat sixes with webers.
gereed75
Assuming mean the hole for twin plugs, I bet Craig can do the twin plug heads. CGAR over on the pelican forums. He does excellent work, easy to work with and very reasonable. He is in Wisconsin or Michigan.

As I am sure you know, these things run fine single plug up to about 9.5 CR. But if you want it you want it.

Probably not your cup of tea, but I saw a novel twin plug set up built by some guys running a 914-6 in vintage events here in Pittsburg. They run one distributor in the normal hole and a second distributor run off the E cam. Kinda cool but you gotta time two dizzy's.

It s really not hard setting the stock timing once you do it a few times.
914forme
I have the SDS system here, and the extra coil packs ar pretty easy. Can also do the machining if need be. Just take it into work.

BTW, If I was building a 2.7L std / std, I would go with a set of Nickies if money no object. And that would get you to the 2.9L mark with better cooling and higher compression. For the cam, I have no idea as I am still debating that one, myself. shades.gif
Mark Henry
QUOTE(jd74914 @ Dec 6 2017, 05:13 PM) *

I believe you can also use Microsquirt now for 6 cylinder wasted spark control. It's a bit more expensive than Megajolt, but wouldn't require the super old EDIS components, or the specialized trigger of the SDS system. You'd just be running a few coils and basically whatever crank trigger you wanted.


Yeh who wants to put that super old 90's EDIS tech on a car designed in the 60's.
SDS comes with the trigger sensor and on a six it's fairly easy to do.

And the Toyota COP's don't ignite by magic, guys that use them are often using MS and a missing tooth trigger setup. Or hall effect... or optical....
jd74914
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 6 2017, 09:43 PM) *

Yeh who wants to put that super old 90's EDIS tech on a car designed in the 60's.
SDS comes with the trigger sensor and on a six it's fairly easy to do.

And the Toyota COP's don't ignite by magic, guys that use them are often using MS and a missing tooth trigger setup. Or hall effect... or optical....

I get using EDIS 10-15 years ago, but now it seems like there are better options with more trigger flexibility since you need another controller anyways; getting rid of the EDIS module just removes part of the system if you use coils with built in ignitors.

Like I said, just trying to give some more options. Obviously you need a trigger for any non-distributor system. It's pretty economical to run COP with an MS-based system and doesn't require a specific type of trigger like SDS. You could even likely use the SDS CDI you like with a COP setup. It doesn't have internal drivers to direct fire coils (as seen by the presence of the Hurco/Bosch ignitor modules on their website), so provided SDS allows you to tune dwell, you could wire any coils you wanted to the output of the ignitor module.
Mark Henry
Since the OP is running carbs the MS box is another controller, just like in any other ignition only system.
But a debate on this is getting into hijack territory, if you want to argue this please start a new thread.

QUOTE(jfort @ Dec 6 2017, 01:44 PM) *


after the Eric Shea/Jay Leno show, I started giving a twin spark ignition more thought. I was going to have to spend money to refurbish my OEM distributor and I was going to go to an optical trigger. more reliable, I think, but still a pain to get there being so close to the fire wall.

long story short, we are going to do a crank fire and twin spark. Jay has the jig to drill the hole. (Anyone have a suggestion as to who, east of the Mississippi can drill it?) I figure it will be reliable and easier to tune and it's what Jay has on his race car.

as for the cam, apparently there is one a little more aggressive than the Solex, an "S special" or something?, that Jay is going to look into.

can't wait to start the rebuild after the turn of the year


So now you're getting into the good ol' Slippery Slope biggrin.gif

There's absolutly no advantage in running twinplug ignition unless you are running high CR pistons. So you basically need a 10:1 to 11:1 CR

So Mahle's are likely off the table mostly due to availability, If you do find a set it will be around the same price as nickies if new.
The two other choices are JE pistons with replated stock cylinders, ballpark around $2400 or a set of nickies at $5500.

And that's not the end of it, with Nickies (IMO replated stock/JE's as well) you also need $6-700. worth of head studs, the twinplug labour to the heads and lower covers, add the cams, ignition, etc.
So you have now more than doubled (or tripled) your parts only bill.
mepstein
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 7 2017, 07:09 AM) *

Since the OP is running carbs the MS box is another controller, just like in any other ignition only system.
But a debate on this is getting into hijack territory, if you want to argue this please start a new thread.

QUOTE(jfort @ Dec 6 2017, 01:44 PM) *


after the Eric Shea/Jay Leno show, I started giving a twin spark ignition more thought. I was going to have to spend money to refurbish my OEM distributor and I was going to go to an optical trigger. more reliable, I think, but still a pain to get there being so close to the fire wall.

long story short, we are going to do a crank fire and twin spark. Jay has the jig to drill the hole. (Anyone have a suggestion as to who, east of the Mississippi can drill it?) I figure it will be reliable and easier to tune and it's what Jay has on his race car.

as for the cam, apparently there is one a little more aggressive than the Solex, an "S special" or something?, that Jay is going to look into.

can't wait to start the rebuild after the turn of the year


So now you're getting into the good ol' Slippery Slope biggrin.gif

There's absolutly no advantage in running twinplug ignition unless you are running high CR pistons. So you basically need a 10:1 to 11:1 CR

So Mahle's are likely off the table mostly due to availability, If you do find a set it will be around the same price as nickies if new.
The two other choices are JE pistons with replated stock cylinders, ballpark around $2400 or a set of nickies at $5500.

And that's not the end of it, with Nickies (IMO replated stock/JE's as well) you also need $6-700. worth of head studs, the twinplug labour to the heads and lower covers, add the cams, ignition, etc.
So you have now more than doubled (or tripled) your parts only bill.

agree.gif Twin plug doesn't make more power in its self. Just lets you use more CR and not have to use race gas.
JmuRiz
Another in agreement with the two above....I'm going the replated cyls with new higher CR pistons running single plug on pump gas.

Twin plug is cool looking for you'd nee more than 9.5:1 CR to make it worthwhile.

BUT those coil-on-plugs shown above are very interesting.
For now, I'm just going with my good carbs and dizzy (will check the curve to see if it's close enough to 2.7RS spec or send out for recurving) and running like that for a while. If I get flush with $ (haha) I'll do EFI and crank-fire ignition. But I figure doing changes in stages works well to not change too much at a time and feel if an upgrade is worth the $$.
brant
I agree with the above.
no need to go to twin plug (and spend anywhere from 1k - 5k on ignition) without changing to a high compression piston.

914Toy
Like Larmo, I have just installed single plug Clewett ignition on my 2.7 911 engine with Weber carbs and street cams, along with stock pistons and crank. Excellent outcome piratenanner.gif
Mark Henry
Nice wub.gif

But I'll raise you by 3.0 happy11.gif

IPB Image
jfort
beautiful! now we're talking. almost too beautiful to put back in a car. mine should look about like that.
Mark Henry
Brant and I are running TP dizzy's, Brant (like most) is doing it because certain race classes demand that you use a dizzy, I'm running it because a customer gave me a deal I couldn't refuse.

Don't get hung up on how beautiful the TP dizzy looks, because in a 914 you can't even see it, just a mess of snakes peeking out the top.
Like I said with TP you are going down the expensive slippery slope, you can make a very potent /6 with a single plug system at between 9 and 9.5CR. TP on it's own doesn't make a speck of HP, but it allows you up CR by at least a whole CR point, thus the HP gain of doing that.

A /6 engine is like a good recipe, there's a hundred different ingredients, but it only takes one bad ingredient to spoil the sauce.
mepstein
Unlike a 911, you see mostly see the back of the engine in a 914.
pete-stevers
I won't be running twin plugs in any engine builds...but I will definately will be watching this thread! happy11.gif
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