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Mblizzard
I currently have a 2056 with a great top half. Big valve heads, Micro Squirt, and 96mm P/Cs. But I want more HP. I have set myself a $4K budget for building the bottom half, potentially going to 2.3 with a stroker crank, adding cam, balancing, and making some valve train improvements. But I started thinking, you know how dangerous that is, are there any other engine options in the $4K range that would provide reasonable HP increase. Not looking for 250 HP but just enough to keep it interesting.

Anyone got thoughts or suggestions? Open to most options but not sure that converting to water cooled is even remotely possible with the budget limit. Engine swap for proven HP increase seems the easiest option but thought I would see what the brain trust could come up with.

Racer
a 2056 is roughly 120hp? A nice 2.3 would be 150-170hp? Depending on use, at that much hp, its time to consider peripherals like suspension, brakes and possible chassis strenghtening, external oil cooler etc.

I've been away from prices, but going anything other than a Type 4 will laugh at your budget. not sure what the $$$$ runs for the mods you mentioned to begin with.
Mark Henry
Since you have already done all the hard work for a T4 I'd stick with it.

A stroker would fall in that range if DYI and using the goodies you have.
Pistons are a no go...
78mm crank with T1 rods journals, clearanced CB rods and KB pistons. You need a reduced circle cam.

I think all the WC options start around $5K minimum unless you are super handy in the fab department.

Also are you totally sorted in the handling dept? I'd take care of that first.
thelogo
I always thought you would drive your 2056
Until it needed a rebuild then go bigger

Not tear apart a healthy running engine for no reason

But as my mechanic told me when i told him to
Pry out the 1.7 and drop in the 2366

If you want to have fun then you should have fun sheeplove.gif



Edit :

A 2.3 is not very subtle
ALL it wants to do is go really fast

Where as your 2056 , you can still drive like cruiser

And if you want to pump water honda s2000
Motor with rad as the gt oil cooler cutout ???
Mblizzard
Should be sorted in the handling suspension part. Finishing installing Koni Adjstables on front. Have all new ball joints, A-arm bushing, and turbo tie rods on front. Adding the new 914 Rubber strut bushings. Stock sway bar With adjustable drop links.

Koni coil overs on rear and replacing trailing arm bushings with the 914 Rubber stainless kit and changing wheel bearings. Have rear sway bar to install but have not convinced myself i need it. Not much else left there.

I understand on the thought on taking apart a running engine but there has alway been a knock in this engine and I think the cam is worn. The case is stamped 0.25 over so it has been redone and likely had some major concerns when it was built.

So even if the 2.3 is not done I will still have the bottom done and replace the stock cam.

I have built several engines in the past and had access to my fathers machine shop. The DIY route on the floor of the garage is not as fun as it use to be!
Mark Henry
QUOTE(thelogo @ Dec 15 2017, 10:24 PM) *


A 2.3 is not very subtle
ALL it wants to do is go really fast

Where as your 2056 , you can still drive like cruiser



Wrong, sure if you over cam it and drive it like a 17yr/old, but the long stroke T4 with a sensible cam drives quite nice.
My 2.6 goes like stink if I'm heavy on the go pedal, but it's totally tame for normal driving.
thelogo
[quote name='Mark Henry' date='Dec 16 2017, 07:15 AM' post='2558247']
[quote name='thelogo' post='2558164' date='Dec 15 2017, 10:24 PM']

A 2.3 is not very subtle
ALL it wants to do is go really fast

Where as your 2056 , you can still drive like cruiser

[/quote]

Wrong, sure if you over cam it









I have no idea what it means but
The guy who had the motor built and sold it to me says

Its got the. (C25 / C35 ) grind cam ?


And yes the car will go tame for normal driving, but its always ready to go war emergency power at the snap of a finger
Mark Henry
The Scat C-25 and C-35 are carb cam designs from the late 70's, on a 2056 a C-25 doesn't give you any more performance than a stock D-jet IMHO.

On a stroker engine my favorite is the WEB 163/86a, hair lumpy,good idle and gobs of torque, but still drivable for busy highways. Con is you need to run dual springs and manton pushrods and it has poor vacuum signal for ITB fuel injection. Can be worked around and IMO worth it.

For a bit better vacuum maybe try the Web 494, but all ITB intakes suffer from poor vacuum signal with cams that have greater than stock durations.
Note, I can't remember if a 494 is a reduced base circle cam, a stroker you have to have this because one lobe will interfere with the rod.
whitetwinturbo
..................here's a bit more horsepower lol-2.gif

Click to view attachment
wndsrfr
I had a failed DPR crank on my 2316....cracked where oil passage was too close to the journal/web junction. I then went with FAT who uses new forgings on the 80mm stroker and he also put in 5 dowels to my flywheel & balanced it.....bulletproof! Check them out.....also used forged pistons (JB) as I was using it for DE events.
Using TPS only since the ITB's screw up the MAP signal for the SDS controller. Cruises fine using closed loop, seeks 14:1 at steady state automatically, nice. Still on "old" Raby 9550 cam & dyno's at reasonable HP & torque. Click to view attachment
Mblizzard
QUOTE(whitetwinturbo @ Dec 20 2017, 07:09 PM) *

..................here's a bit more horsepower lol-2.gif




May require some minor modification to install!
Mblizzard
QUOTE(wndsrfr @ Dec 21 2017, 05:51 AM) *

I had a failed DPR crank on my 2316....cracked where oil passage was too close to the journal/web junction. I then went with FAT who uses new forgings on the 80mm stroker and he also put in 5 dowels to my flywheel & balanced it.....bulletproof! Check them out.....also used forged pistons (JB) as I was using it for DE events.
Using TPS only since the ITB's screw up the MAP signal for the SDS controller. Cruises fine using closed loop, seeks 14:1 at steady state automatically, nice. Still on "old" Raby 9550 cam & dyno's at reasonable HP & torque. Click to view attachment


I am looking at numerous options and certainly getting to this point would be a dream! Love that torque curve. Much better than the stock 6!
IronHillRestorations
I'd start putting together parts for a 6 conversion, or your dream big 4, and run your current engine until it pops, which will probably be a very long time. I'm always amazed how long these things will run.
mepstein
agree.gif
It can make a lot of sense to build a second engine instead of modifying a good running engine.
Robnxious
QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 21 2017, 07:59 AM) *

agree.gif
It can make a lot of sense to build a second engine instead of modifying a good running engine.


That's what I did, for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is, the old engine runs fine, just it's the original 1.8, which didn't have enough get up and go. So I was able to drive my car the entire time that the engine was being built, which was great. Also, though it's not too big of a deal now, the original IS number matching for my car, so in 20 years, that will probably mean a bit more than it does now. Also, if the "worst" happens, while it's not the route I want to go, I will have a backup engine to throw back in it
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Robnxious @ Dec 21 2017, 08:11 AM) *

QUOTE(mepstein @ Dec 21 2017, 07:59 AM) *

agree.gif
It can make a lot of sense to build a second engine instead of modifying a good running engine.


That's what I did, for a variety of reasons. First and foremost is, the old engine runs fine, just it's the original 1.8, which didn't have enough get up and go. So I was able to drive my car the entire time that the engine was being built, which was great. Also, though it's not too big of a deal now, the original IS number matching for my car, so in 20 years, that will probably mean a bit more than it does now. Also, if the "worst" happens, while it's not the route I want to go, I will have a backup engine to throw back in it


It comes down to a number of choices and cost. I have a good 1.8 case, crank, and rods in addition to the running 2056. If I go the 78mm crank route I will use the 1.8 case, but new P/Cs, and use my big valve heads off the 2.0.

If I stick with the 2056 then I will have to pull the running engine to get the crank and rods.

Just a lot of options to sort through.
DaveO90s4
I have a full marching numbers 1956 356A. I think it likely that in 20 years time when my 914 is of the age my 356 is now, matching numbers might be important.

But I wanted more get up and go now.

So I removed the 1.8 engine and that will now never break a rod etc while tucked under my workshop bench.

And I installed a 140 HP air cooled chev Corvair reverse rotation engine. It fits with no body modifications what so ever. Front engine mount does not involve welding on firewall. So it is all 100% reversible back to stock - one day.

The acceleration is on par with my 3.2 L Carrera.

And engines and parts are cheap too - unlike a Porsche 6.

Worth thinking about maybe??

DaveO
JOEPROPER
I would slowly gather parts for a 6 conversion and drive it the way it is until you have all the parts, and you're finally ready to do the conversion. As a matter of fact this is exactly what I'm doing. For me, I don't see it as a good idea to take a part a fully functioning car until absolutely ready to complete the project. This is something that I've learned the hard way over the years. Good luck!
rhodyguy
What is the plan for cylinders?
Mblizzard
QUOTE(JOEPROPER @ Dec 21 2017, 01:33 PM) *

I would slowly gather parts for a 6 conversion and drive it the way it is until you have all the parts, and you're finally ready to do the conversion. As a matter of fact this is exactly what I'm doing. For me, I don't see it as a good idea to take a part a fully functioning car until absolutely ready to complete the project. This is something that I've learned the hard way over the years. Good luck!


Would love that but I blew up many 4s in my youth so I have a special disfunction to build them. Makes much more sense to do the 6 but I want a 4 that will keep up with a 6.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Dec 21 2017, 02:01 PM) *

What is the plan for cylinders?


Right now I am looking at keeping my 96mm. But I am struggling in not totally sink my budget and go with some LN Nickies 103 mm. I don't really need massive HP numbers I want usable torque. Lots of it!
Robnxious
QUOTE(DaveO90s4 @ Dec 21 2017, 12:54 PM) *

I have a full marching numbers 1956 356A. I think it likely that in 20 years time when my 914 is of the age my 356 is now, matching numbers might be important.

But I wanted more get up and go now.

So I removed the 1.8 engine and that will now never break a rod etc while tucked under my workshop bench.

And I installed a 140 HP air cooled chev Corvair reverse rotation engine. It fits with no body modifications what so ever. Front engine mount does not involve welding on firewall. So it is all 100% reversible back to stock - one day.

The acceleration is on par with my 3.2 L Carrera.

And engines and parts are cheap too - unlike a Porsche 6.

Worth thinking about maybe??

DaveO


The quote "never break a rod while tucked under my work bench" is precisely why I got a new case and had the 2.3 built from the case up and am keeping the other engine. I could just see going big w/ adding onto the engine, and "BAM" there goes my numbers matching engine
Mblizzard
QUOTE(DaveO90s4 @ Dec 21 2017, 12:54 PM) *

I have a full marching numbers 1956 356A. I think it likely that in 20 years time when my 914 is of the age my 356 is now, matching numbers might be important.

But I wanted more get up and go now.

So I removed the 1.8 engine and that will now never break a rod etc while tucked under my workshop bench.

And I installed a 140 HP air cooled chev Corvair reverse rotation engine. It fits with no body modifications what so ever. Front engine mount does not involve welding on firewall. So it is all 100% reversible back to stock - one day.

The acceleration is on par with my 3.2 L Carrera.

And engines and parts are cheap too - unlike a Porsche 6.

Worth thinking about maybe??

DaveO


Neat idea but not sure how available are thes engines? Not likely to find a rebuilt engine of this type ready to go.
DaveO90s4
If you're in the US these Corvair engines are plentiful. Pity I'm in Australia!

I bought my engine for US $4,000, used, complete with nice inlet manifolds and nice carbs. Proven chev pushed technology, no cam chains and tensioners to bother with, hydraulic lifters, no magnesium case and stud problems. With Kennedy adaptor mates to 914 gearbox.

I think this is an option worthy of serious investigation for anyone wanting more power cheaply.
Mark Henry
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Dec 21 2017, 06:00 PM) *

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Dec 21 2017, 02:01 PM) *

What is the plan for cylinders?


Right now I am looking at keeping my 96mm. But I am struggling in not totally sink my budget and go with some LN Nickies 103 mm. I don't really need massive HP numbers I want usable torque. Lots of it!

Nickies would blow your budget and IMO a waste of time if not doing a stroker, I don't even know if you can get them with the T4 24mm rod pin. I'd do a stroker with iron cylinder 96's before I'd consider a stock stroke 103 engine.

Mblizzard
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 21 2017, 05:55 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Dec 21 2017, 06:00 PM) *

QUOTE(rhodyguy @ Dec 21 2017, 02:01 PM) *

What is the plan for cylinders?


Right now I am looking at keeping my 96mm. But I am struggling in not totally sink my budget and go with some LN Nickies 103 mm. I don't really need massive HP numbers I want usable torque. Lots of it!

Nickies would blow your budget and IMO a waste of time if not doing a stroker, I don't even know if you can get them with the T4 24mm rod pin. I'd do a stroker with iron cylinder 96's before I'd consider a stock stroke 103 engine.


Yes you are right. Hope to go to a 78mm crank. Likely the iron is fine but the cool factor is immense.

I know it has been done but I would like to get some good performance on a budget. It seems that budget and performance don’t go together but I am looking.
BeatNavy
QUOTE(DaveO90s4 @ Dec 21 2017, 07:25 PM) *

If you're in the US these Corvair engines are plentiful. Pity I'm in Australia!

I bought my engine for US $4,000, used, complete with nice inlet manifolds and nice carbs. Proven chev pushed technology, no cam chains and tensioners to bother with, hydraulic lifters, no magnesium case and stud problems. With Kennedy adaptor mates to 914 gearbox.

I think this is an option worthy of serious investigation for anyone wanting more power cheaply.

There's at least one other person here currently doing a Corvair conversion (R3DPlanet, or something, I think?). Not sure how far he's gotten, but he's got a build thread on it here somewhere.

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 21 2017, 08:55 PM) *

Nickies would blow your budget and IMO a waste of time if not doing a stroker,

Slightly off topic, but has everyone else noticed that the Type 4 Store is ONLY selling Nickies now as part of their engine kits?
Mark Henry
I've built a bunch of nickies engines, /4, /6 and 996... I can tell you to do it right it's not cheap.
I'm an LN dealer, my '67 bug is a T4 conversion with a 78 x 102mm engine.

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Dec 21 2017, 09:11 PM) *


Slightly off topic, but has everyone else noticed that the Type 4 Store is ONLY selling Nickies now as part of their engine kits?

Likely they want you to use the correct parts and combo. I can get them without the kit.
Montreal914
As Mark mentioned, if you stay in the budget range and use the KB pistons, you will want to use different ones than the ones on your 2056. KB has the ones with higher pin location for stroker application.

Mark, when you mentioned Web 163/86a, did you mean 163/86b? confused24.gif

Sound like a very cool project, like your MS upgrade, I will definitely follow. popcorn[1].gif
Mblizzard
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ Dec 21 2017, 06:12 PM) *

I've built a bunch of nickies engines, /4, /6 and 996... I can tell you to do it right it's not cheap.
I'm an LN dealer, my '67 bug is a T4 conversion with a 78 x 102mm engine.

QUOTE(BeatNavy @ Dec 21 2017, 09:11 PM) *


Slightly off topic, but has everyone else noticed that the Type 4 Store is ONLY selling Nickies now as part of their engine kits?

Likely they want you to use the correct parts and combo. I can get them without the kit.

This is the problem us amateurs face. The engineer in me knows that the quality and long life of the Nickies are without question. But my car is not a daily driver. I put less than 1500 miles on it last year. While i am working my options i want to kick some but for $4K.

Saw a Boxster listed for $8k. Could do that swap and seel parts and have something epic and money left over. But I want to have people look at my 4 as they struggle to keep up and say that rocks. While I could spend much more, I want to do more with less. Optimistic? Yes but still a real goal.
Mblizzard
OK so after much work and with the help of a number of vendors I found a good already complete 2056 engine that was in my price range.

A few things I learned.

First in this range of about $4K to $5K, it is hard to beat what McMark at Original Customs can do.

I also checked with a lot of others and and got some interesting info. I don't recall all of the details on exchanges of cores and such but certainly there are some options in this range. Cant say if any of them are right or wrong but it is just the information I found.


SCAT

2366 cc long block using your 914 heads $4,800.00 - outright
2600 cc long block using your 914 heads $ 6,400.00
2056 cc long block using your 914 heads will cost you $ 2,995.00

Head Flow Masters

Stroker Type 4 $4K W/ New Heads And Web. Series Cam (I am assuming this would be a bus engine)

Mofoco
Type 4 Longblock (2000cc) $3.5K (Bus Engine)

Summit Racing
Long Block Engine 2056cc Long-Block (71mm Stroke x 96mm Bore) $3.5K
Long Block Engine 2366cc Long-Block (71mm Stroke x 103mm Bore) $5K
Long Block Engine 2600cc Long-Block (78mm Stroke x 103mm Bore) $6.4K

As a last note, I worked with the Type 4 Store and they are coming up with a list of parts that they could provide for a build that would fall under this range. I would have preferred to go with the LN parts but I just don't have the time to complete a build in my garage. When I get the final numbers I will post them.

I still have the running 2056 I removed, it is a possibility that I may go the LN path for that build as I will not be under any time limits.
mb911
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Jan 11 2018, 11:18 AM) *

OK so after much work and with the help of a number of vendors I found a good already complete 2056 engine that was in my price range.

A few things I learned.

First in this range of about $4K to $5K, it is hard to beat what McMark at Original Customs can do.

I also checked with a lot of others and and got some interesting info. I don't recall all of the details on exchanges of cores and such but certainly there are some options in this range. Cant say if any of them are right or wrong but it is just the information I found.


SCAT

2366 cc long block using your 914 heads $4,800.00 - outright
2600 cc long block using your 914 heads $ 6,400.00
2056 cc long block using your 914 heads will cost you $ 2,995.00

Head Flow Masters

Stroker Type 4 $4K W/ New Heads And Web. Series Cam (I am assuming this would be a bus engine)

Mofoco
Type 4 Longblock (2000cc) $3.5K (Bus Engine)

Summit Racing
Long Block Engine 2056cc Long-Block (71mm Stroke x 96mm Bore) $3.5K
Long Block Engine 2366cc Long-Block (71mm Stroke x 103mm Bore) $5K
Long Block Engine 2600cc Long-Block (78mm Stroke x 103mm Bore) $6.4K

As a last note, I worked with the Type 4 Store and they are coming up with a list of parts that they could provide for a build that would fall under this range. I would have preferred to go with the LN parts but I just don't have the time to complete a build in my garage. When I get the final numbers I will post them.

I still have the running 2056 I removed, it is a possibility that I may go the LN path for that build as I will not be under any time limits.


Mofoco is a bad idea.. Lots of experience with them and the owner. Lots of fishy stuff going on there.
matthepcat
The 2.6 liter turbo motor from this car is available for purchase out of the PNW.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=257971&hl=

I have the current owners contact info smile.gif
Mblizzard
QUOTE(matthepcat @ Jan 12 2018, 02:07 PM) *

The 2.6 liter turbo motor from this car is available for purchase out of the PNW.

http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=257971&hl=

I have the current owners contact info smile.gif



Likely well beyond my budget! But AWESOME!
Mblizzard
Something evil is coming!

Click to view attachment

Crap I have a lot of work to do!
JamesM
QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Jan 16 2018, 05:25 PM) *

Something evil is coming!

Click to view attachment

Crap I have a lot of work to do!


What is difference about this one? Thought you already had a 2056?
Mueller
Fan is in the wrong location, should be on top and belt driven smile.gif

Mblizzard
QUOTE(JamesM @ Jan 16 2018, 04:57 PM) *

QUOTE(Mblizzard @ Jan 16 2018, 05:25 PM) *

Something evil is coming!

Click to view attachment

Crap I have a lot of work to do!


What is difference about this one? Thought you already had a 2056?


Might be a little more than a 2056. This morning one has the 78mm crank, a good cam, ported big valve heads, balanced, and a few other nice goodies. Don’t know that there is that much more HP but I am hoping for better torque and power band.
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