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Francesco
Hey all,
Planning on a water pumper engine swap for my 914, and I see most of the radiator mounts involve cutting the hood or venting air outwards someway involving that. I already have the floor cut for factory A/C (not there any more and don't plan on keeping A/C with the engine swap), and I was curious if I could mount a radiator horizontal, and direct air out of the bottom of the car. I know this will cause lift, but I'm unsure how much it will cause at speed, and if it will actually be an issue? I'd like to maintain as much as my trunk as I possibly can, that's why mounting it 100% horizontally is appealing to me.
Thank you for your critisim,
Francesco
SirAndy
Most car radiators are not designed to be run horizontally, you won't get the desired water flow and trapped air will be a major problem.

Look up "Renegade Hybrids", they have done water-cooled conversions since forever and their radiator setup simply works.

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A&P Mech
rnellums (Ross) is running his ez30 powered 914 with the radiator laying flat and the air exits out the hole for the OEM air condition just like you stated. Give him a shout. He is a great guy. His build thread is here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=145922&hl=
mepstein
QUOTE(A&P Mech @ Apr 10 2018, 07:52 PM) *

rnellums (Ross) is running his ez30 powered 914 with the radiator laying flat and the air exits out the hole for the OEM air condition just like you stated. Give him a shout. He is a great guy. His build thread is here: http://www.914world.com/bbs2/index.php?sho...=145922&hl=

Same with okieflyer with his Honda conversion.
tazz9924
You definitely could, you’d need some good fans as it’s gonna get worse air flow. If possible mount them so the pull air through instead of push so their more efficient. As for lift i cant attest to the amount of lift it may cause, you may consider and air dam for the front and/or a diffuser on the back to prevent/ evacuate some of the air under the car (only worry about this if you’re planning high speed not just freeway to 100mph)
smonigold
QUOTE(Francesco @ Apr 10 2018, 02:35 PM) *

Hey all,
Planning on a water pumper engine swap for my 914, and I see most of the radiator mounts involve cutting the hood or venting air outwards someway involving that. I already have the floor cut for factory A/C (not there any more and don't plan on keeping A/C with the engine swap), and I was curious if I could mount a radiator horizontal, and direct air out of the bottom of the car. I know this will cause lift, but I'm unsure how much it will cause at speed, and if it will actually be an issue? I'd like to maintain as much as my trunk as I possibly can, that's why mounting it 100% horizontally is appealing to me.
Thank you for your critisim,
Francesco

I used a radiator and fans out of 924. Inlet is the 916 oil cooler hole" fiberglass front bumper" made ducting with aluminum and exited out hole in hood. Runs too cool going down highway never overheat even in Los Angeles traffic. But mine has a SR20DET in it. Not too keen on idea of cutting tub. And it only ways 1800 lbs so power to weight ratio is excellent.
smonigold
QUOTE(Francesco @ Apr 10 2018, 02:35 PM) *

Hey all,
Planning on a water pumper engine swap for my 914, and I see most of the radiator mounts involve cutting the hood or venting air outwards someway involving that. I already have the floor cut for factory A/C (not there any more and don't plan on keeping A/C with the engine swap), and I was curious if I could mount a radiator horizontal, and direct air out of the bottom of the car. I know this will cause lift, but I'm unsure how much it will cause at speed, and if it will actually be an issue? I'd like to maintain as much as my trunk as I possibly can, that's why mounting it 100% horizontally is appealing to me.
Thank you for your critisim,
Francesco

I used a radiator and fans out of 924. Inlet is the 916 oil cooler hole" fiberglass front bumper" made ducting with aluminum and exited out hole in hood. Runs too cool going down highway never overheat even in Los Angeles traffic. But mine has a SR20DET in it. Not too keen on idea of cutting tub. And it only weighs 1800 lbs so power to weight ratio is excellent.
Chris914n6
Mine exits out of the A/C hole in the floor. Good cooling, sometimes too much on the highway. I'll look for pics later.
Can't say if it lifts or not, all I know so far is the rear end floats at 120mph. I think part of that is airflow thru the engine compartment since it's not sealed anymore.
Chris914n6
QUOTE(smonigold @ Apr 10 2018, 07:59 PM) *

But mine has a SR20DET in it. Not too keen on idea of cutting tub. And it only weighs 1800 lbs so power to weight ratio is excellent.

Another Nissan aktion035.gif I've got the VQ30de, with a VQ35de "upgrade" in the garage.
Mike Bellis
I had this in my first 914. I took a Ford van radiator and had the shop mount 90 degree fitting of the water inlet/outlet. I had them ad a long tube for the cap that stuck up almost to the hood. This is the high point fill.

I built a platform at about the bumper top height and carpeted it. Air flowed in from the bumper, under the platform and through the radiator. I had a large single fan pointing down to pull air out.

Observations:
1) Worked great for cooling and allowed me to have a little front trunk space.
2) On a dirt road the fan would blow dust all over the place and into the car.
3) In traffic, the hot air blowing out from the bottom of the car would make its way into the windows and cabin if they were down.
4) This adds air under the front of the car which will make it more unstable as speed increases.
5) I would do this again if I could devise a duct that pulls the air out to the side of the car.
6) My front mounted Celica GTS radiator works much better than the flat radiator from the past.
Francesco
I'm glad I received more than a no. Now I have another curious question: About how hot is the air leaving the radiator? What if the air came IN from below and was routed towards the front calipers, would this be too hot to cool them? Maybe I'm over complicating this, it's just a curiosity at this point.
Thanks,
Francesco
76-914
You are over complicating it. You want to go water cooled so do it however you like. If you re-invent the wheel your on your on so plan on many hours of R&D. If you want a proven cooling system then adopt one of the methods used by the rest of us. For flat installation study Ross' install. For upright install you can follow any of the Subaru or Audi installs. All are detailed in one of two forums here. beerchug.gif
Andyrew
First off we need to know how big of an engine your looking for. If its a v6 or 4cyl turbo you can run a Celica GTS radiator and have a VERY clean install. If its a v8 you might have cooling problems and need to go with something else.

For mounting, there are LOTS of threads. But your desired engine is critical to know.
tazz9924
QUOTE(Francesco @ Apr 11 2018, 06:35 AM) *

I'm glad I received more than a no. Now I have another curious question: About how hot is the air leaving the radiator? What if the air came IN from below and was routed towards the front calipers, would this be too hot to cool them? Maybe I'm over complicating this, it's just a curiosity at this point.
Thanks,
Francesco

Definitely not an issue considering most people vent the air to the wheel well directly on the caliper. The air is hot as hell tho on 100 degree days! Makes my legs very hot when the trunk air blows on em happy11.gif
Chris914n6
QUOTE(Francesco @ Apr 11 2018, 06:35 AM) *

I'm glad I received more than a no. Now I have another curious question: About how hot is the air leaving the radiator? What if the air came IN from below and was routed towards the front calipers, would this be too hot to cool them? Maybe I'm over complicating this, it's just a curiosity at this point.
Thanks,
Francesco

I measured this once a few years ago, it's little, like 30f over ambient. If you think about it, all front engine cars have the rad air blow on the engine and they are strictly cooled at 180-212f. Plus it doesn't blow directly on the brakes, it exits into the wheel house which is a high turbulence area.

Click to view attachment
jd74914
QUOTE(tazz9924 @ Apr 11 2018, 12:23 PM) *

QUOTE(Francesco @ Apr 11 2018, 06:35 AM) *

I'm glad I received more than a no. Now I have another curious question: About how hot is the air leaving the radiator? What if the air came IN from below and was routed towards the front calipers, would this be too hot to cool them? Maybe I'm over complicating this, it's just a curiosity at this point.
Thanks,
Francesco

Definitely not an issue considering most people vent the air to the wheel well directly on the caliper. The air is hot as hell tho on 100 degree days! Makes my legs very hot when the trunk air blows on em happy11.gif

Hot for brake pads is 500F+ so 80F ambient vs. even 150F radiator exit/ambient mix doesn't really matter. smile.gif
Francesco
The motor will be a Subaru 4 cylinder motor, so I'm sure not nearly as big of a radiator will be required as a V8 would.
A&P Mech
The first subaru motor I installed in my 914 was a 2.5L four cylinder EJ253. To be honest it was okay. It was more power than the stock type 4 but the acceleration was still a bit uninspiring. I would routinely get spanked on the freeway on ramps by aggressive soccer moms in mini vans.

I had the opportunity to drive a 914 with a 3.0 subaru 6 cylinder installed and after that I couldn't replace the 2.5L installed in my car fast enough. I truly believe the ez30 subaru 6 cylinder is a perfect match for the 914. The balance feel of the car along with a respectable amount of torque makes it a total kick in the pants to drive. driving.gif
Andyrew
QUOTE(A&P Mech @ Apr 11 2018, 08:01 PM) *

The first subaru motor I installed in my 914 was a 2.5L four cylinder EJ253. To be honest it was okay. It was more power than the stock type 4 but the acceleration was still a bit uninspiring. I would routinely get spanked on the freeway on ramps by aggressive soccer moms in mini vans.

I had the opportunity to drive a 914 with a 3.0 subaru 6 cylinder installed and after that I couldn't replace the 2.5L installed in my car fast enough. I truly believe the ez30 subaru 6 cylinder is a perfect match for the 914. The balance feel of the car along with a respectable amount of torque makes it a total kick in the pants to drive. driving.gif

Must have been something wrong with your engine.. I raced a fellow member with my v8 conversion who had a bare bones 2.5, it was a surprisingly close race till about 70 when I pulled away. My car was making about 240 whp then.

However I agree that any of the Subaru 6s is a solid choice.


Either of these engines will do just fine with a Celia GTS radiator. There are 3 or 4 good writeups on it. I know myself and Mike Bells have one in our building threads.
Francesco
QUOTE(A&P Mech @ Apr 11 2018, 10:01 PM) *

The first subaru motor I installed in my 914 was a 2.5L four cylinder EJ253. To be honest it was okay. It was more power than the stock type 4 but the acceleration was still a bit uninspiring. I would routinely get spanked on the freeway on ramps by aggressive soccer moms in mini vans.

I had the opportunity to drive a 914 with a 3.0 subaru 6 cylinder installed and after that I couldn't replace the 2.5L installed in my car fast enough. I truly believe the ez30 subaru 6 cylinder is a perfect match for the 914. The balance feel of the car along with a respectable amount of torque makes it a total kick in the pants to drive. driving.gif


Planning on a turbo EJ20 from Japan, with ~275 hp stock, should push 300 NO problem with a tune, I think I will get in more than enough trouble with that, lol.
76-914
300hp is the imagined critical number. I assume you will be doing the accompanying upgrades that come with 300hp+, i.e. tub & suspension re-inforcement, CV & 1/2 shaft upgrades, transmission...............just for starts. HP is fun, addictive and expensive. LMK when you finish and I'll send you VW/Subaru decal. beerchug.gif
tazz9924
QUOTE(76-914 @ Apr 12 2018, 09:36 AM) *

300hp is the imagined critical number. I assume you will be doing the accompanying upgrades that come with 300hp+, i.e. tub & suspension re-inforcement, CV & 1/2 shaft upgrades, transmission...............just for starts. HP is fun, addictive and expensive. LMK when you finish and I'll send you VW/Subaru decal. beerchug.gif

You have a vw subaru decal?! Why haven’t i heard of this earlier
Mike Bellis
Be careful with JDM motors. They sometimes have unique parts and gaskets. JDM gaskets are really hard to find some times.
Mueller
QUOTE(Mike Bellis @ Apr 12 2018, 08:44 PM) *

Be careful with JDM motors. They sometimes have unique parts and gaskets. JDM gaskets are really hard to find some times.



Specific ECU's as well from what I've read pop up once in a while, so another thing to think about and research.
Andyrew
I dont think I would go with a factory ECU anymore. I would only Microsquirt or Megasquirt a car... Just too much positives with too little negatives for doing it.
Francesco
I am planning on stiffening the trailing arms, sway bar mounts, rear fenders using the GT kit, and inner longs. Possibly also the trailing arm mounts. I've heard good things about flashing the Subaru ECUs from friends & from reading online as well, so I will attempt to use that before going with an aftermarket ECU. Also, I will do more research about JDM parts and the difficulties of finding them, I just assumed they were the same as USDM.
76-914
Sounds like you've done your homework. Are you using petrolicious to re-flash the ECU? I didn't need to re-flash anything for my 6 cylinder install. I have one USM and one JDM engine; both 3.0's. The only difference I found on this model was one of the 4 Molex engine connectors was different. Since I already had the US version harness it was only a matter of switching out the one small harness. beerchug.gif
914forme
Sway bar mount reinforcement 914Limitied, best design out there. Unless your trying to find something larger then MadDogs Mount is more than likely over kill. I have used both.

Inner Log - Maddog

Outer Log if you need a real stiff car 914LTD

RE-concole - Tangerine racing Chris stuff is the best

Things not to do:
Rear Trailing Arms - do not box them. Lots of info on here, better to put some tubes or add a plate into the arm. Tangerine does the arm with the plate in the middle, it costs a bit more, but worth it in the long run. Deluxe Trailing Arms

914 GT reinforcement kit, better to spend you more doing the console and tube to the firewall. Chris' stuff will do to the best for the money. Rear Suspension Inner Console Reinforcements and Rear Pickup Points Reinforcing Kit

If you feel like you need more, 914LTD does an outer rocker kit that goes all the way back to the suspension outer pickup point of the rear console.

Good luck with the build.
Andyrew
QUOTE(Francesco @ Apr 13 2018, 07:28 AM) *

I am planning on stiffening the trailing arms, sway bar mounts, rear fenders using the GT kit, and inner longs. Possibly also the trailing arm mounts. I've heard good things about flashing the Subaru ECUs from friends & from reading online as well, so I will attempt to use that before going with an aftermarket ECU. Also, I will do more research about JDM parts and the difficulties of finding them, I just assumed they were the same as USDM.



Rear fenders dont take the load you think(ALA GT kit is essentially useless in that regard). The suspension mount takes load, and trailing arm mount takes load. Its also good to put a bar between firewall and trailing arm ear after reinforcing the ear.

Longs need the most reinforcement. The inner reinforcement is the best, followed by an outer, and all superseded by a cage if you do that.

Sway bar reinf is a good idea in the front. Rear doesnt take much load if you even use a rear sway.
Andyrew
914 Forme said it all better than me smile.gif
Francesco
Thank you for all the advice. Will definitely be stiffening the inner longs & doing very minor rust repair, and then possibly outers as well, along with the sway bar. Will be ordering the engine in a couple weeks, may even start a build thread - I have a few plans to make this as track car as possible, while keeping it street still. Suspension is going out for powder coat as well. Here is a preemptive list of what to do to the body - let me know if I am forgetting anything:

TO DO LIST:
minor rust repair on hell hole, relocate battery to front
stiffen inner longs, GT kit, suspension console, sway bar, stitch weld rear coilover mounts on frame to prevent tearing.

Francesco
Also had another question, figured I'd ask it here. Car will obviously be raced on a track, and do not mind a stiff ride on the street. I was looking into the 23mm hollow torsion bars, but could not find anything on what that would equate in spring rate, as well as a proper matching rear spring rate to compliment that, and sway bar as well. Any ideas?
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