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porschetub
Listed on there with 15K price and 123K miles thinking up there pricewise no leakdown or history,hopefully being a later motor issues may have been sorted,current trendy motor to fit in a 911 but no loom or ecu with that price....really.
SirAndy
I paid 7k for mine some 12(?) years ago.

They don't make air-cooled engines no more ...
shades.gif
Mueller
Pocket change for a 911 Singer owner that wants another motor smile.gif
sithot
Boat anchors
mepstein
not a great deal but in the ballpark.
If you had one, would you sell it cheap?
sithot
At a minimum it will need exhaust guides and a reseal.
Porsche used a *rare part on these cars which I've heard referred to as the "extra wear exhaust guide cover" (engine tray).


*Rare because few have survived biggrin.gif
JmuRiz
Good base for a 914 since it's the OBD1 and non-VarioRam intake.
The crazy part is that he wants another 700 for the DME.

I would think offering 12500 would be reasonable, seeing as it would need a checkup/top-end before putting in.

Friend of mine has a'95 in his 911 racecar...kept it bone stock and it always worked great. He added lightness to get performance out of the car.
Front yard mechanic
I think I saw a 2.7 with 10,000 miles on a rebuild for 20,000 confused24.gif
mepstein
There are deals out there and sometimes you get lucky but all the air cooled engines are going up in price. Just a fan and shroud are bringing what a whole core engine used to cost. It cost $5-6k just in parts and machine work to do a basic rebuild on a six. That’s separate from the $6-12k in labor.

Our shop is buying any 3.2 & 3.6 that’s reasonably priced. I think prices will be double in the next couple years.
pcar916
That seems high even now. I've had a '95 993 engine in Penelope since 1999. It's tired now so, a few months ago, I paid $13,500 (Parts Heaven) for a 60Kmi engine complete with DME and all of the peripherals that had very good leakdowns and compression. Didn't need the exhaust which would have been $1K more. Still have most of the old one I got with the original engine.

I haven't thought about it for years but the first engine I bought for $3K plus trading my 2.7L E engine that was in the car when I bought it in 1994. The 2.7L became a 40hr race engine and is still in a 1973 race car. Jerry Woods has rebuilt it a couple of times.

These things are ridiculously expensive... could'a had nearly as much fun with a spec Miata!!!!! Maybe not.
aggiezig
This thread just confirms that I'll never be able to afford a six beer.gif
bretth
Funny thing is it seems the selling is saying that the car was parted out because previous owner didn't like the body color.
amfab
QUOTE(pcar916 @ May 16 2018, 06:54 AM) *

That seems high even now.


I agree, seems a little high for a motor with no real data on condition, and non-varioram. 12-13k. seems more the ball park. But they are getting more rare...
amfab
QUOTE(mepstein @ May 16 2018, 06:40 AM) *



Our shop is buying any 3.2 & 3.6 that’s reasonably priced. I think prices will be double in the next couple years.


I was actually going to PM you and ask if you have seen any decent 3.2s that may be available...
r_towle
Why not just build a big /4 motor?
Should be a better investment .

smile.gif
porschetub
QUOTE(mepstein @ May 16 2018, 10:51 PM) *

not a great deal but in the ballpark.
If you had one, would you sell it cheap?

No I wouldn't sell it cheap,I just don't think that it is worth it due to mileage,no history ,no attempt by seller to check its condition and the fact it is missing loom and ecu,that was more my point.
A lazy seller and a potential grenade of a motor is the way I see it.
Travis Neff
It's both overpriced and that is a sign of the times. Makes me wish I didn't let my injected 3.2 go for $4,500.00 several years ago.
Mueller
QUOTE(Travis Neff @ May 16 2018, 04:34 PM) *

It's both overpriced and that is a sign of the times. Makes me wish I didn't let my injected 3.2 go for $4,500.00 several years ago.



I'll never be able to afford a /6 motor again myself theses days....

I sold a complete 2.2 (?) years ago for $800 I think. Worse was when my 964 was totalled with front end damage I could have bought the car back for $5,000. sad.gif
ConeDodger
My 3.2 needs a top-end rebuild, which is disappointing since it was advertised as 55K miles. I paid $5K for it 6-7 years ago. Erik Shea pointed out that currently a 3.2 in unknown condition sells easily for $15K. So I’m going to say, sign of the times...
Edward Blume
What would a 0 mile rebuild 3.0 go for?
mepstein
I think we can all agree that the air cooled engines aren’t going down in price.
Unfortunately, I don’t think the manufacture of new cases will reduce the price of these engines.
sithot
QUOTE(r_towle @ May 16 2018, 07:14 PM) *

Why not just build a big /4 motor?
Should be a better investment .

smile.gif


Agree. A friend had a 2.8 FAT in his 914 that wore out just about anything that got in his way at auto crosses culminating in an FTD at the Porsche Parade in 2008. It had as much torque as horsepower. Combined with a short gear box it was a potent combination.

I reckon the 3.6 dressed is close to 500# whereas the IV is around 300#.
Alois Ruf states in this video: Pick up at 5:40.

"There is no compensation for extra weight."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfYHCbyo6CE
ConeDodger
QUOTE(sithot @ May 16 2018, 09:57 PM) *

QUOTE(r_towle @ May 16 2018, 07:14 PM) *

Why not just build a big /4 motor?
Should be a better investment .

smile.gif


Agree. A friend had a 2.8 FAT in his 914 that wore out just about anything that got in his way at auto crosses culminating in an FTD at the Porsche Parade in 2008. It had as much torque as horsepower. Combined with a short gear box it was a potent combination.

I reckon the 3.6 dressed is close to 500# whereas the IV is around 300#.
Alois Ruf states in this video: Pick up at 5:40.

"There is no compensation for extra weight."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfYHCbyo6CE


I think r_towle might have been being facetious... a type IV with as much HP and torque as a 3.6 would be a grenade quite literally.

I’ve had two 200+ HP & torque Type IV motors. One blew up on me, the second blew up on the guy who bought it from me. They were well engineered, they were installed correctly. Somewhere around here there are pictures of the first one with a hole in the case top, still running with a rod flopping up and down. They don’t last.

Congratulations BTW, you managed to turn this into a 6 vs: 4 debate. Pretty much rule number 3 around here. huh.gif
r_towle
I love it when a plan comes together.
phillstek
Paid $4k for a complete running 3.0 from a guy in Santa Clarita in 2011. Traded it in for $8k and got a 3.2 for $11k in 2013. 3.2 needed valve guides soon after installation. Did a top end rebuild on it and added new p&cs at an all up cost of 12.5k. Swapped a trailer for another 3.2 which I was going to build into a 3.8 screamer but then decided that was crazy after finding that it would cost upwards of 30k to do. I sold that engine to a mate for 15k. That was in 2016. Also sold a 2.2T that needed a full rebuild around the same time for 6k that had no fan or housing.

Agree with others that if you want an air cooled 6 you'd better jump when you see one as these engines are not going to get cheaper.
Mark Henry
My 3.0 $2K core, full rebuild, twinplug, new high CR mahle pistons with replated cylinders, cams, webers, etc , with labour would have been about a $25K build 4-5 years ago.
I'm guessing worth almost $10k more today.

I have a 2.7 core that I couldn't sell for $1000 back then and it wasn't worth building. Now it's not for sale and one day I'll go at it as a spec engine.

sithot
QUOTE(ConeDodger @ May 17 2018, 01:56 AM) *


Congratulations BTW, you managed to turn this into a 6 vs: 4 debate. Pretty much rule number 3 around here. huh.gif


I think the crux of the thread is whether these 6's are good deals.

I won't pay $15-$20K for an unknown lump.

Mark Henry
QUOTE(sithot @ May 17 2018, 08:54 AM) *

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ May 17 2018, 01:56 AM) *


Congratulations BTW, you managed to turn this into a 6 vs: 4 debate. Pretty much rule number 3 around here. huh.gif


I think the crux of the thread is whether these 6's are good deals.

I won't pay $15-$20K for an unknown lump.


I agree, for that price I'd want a PPI, leak down, hear it running, etc.
But at the same time there's a 993 vram 90k miles, with DME and harness asking $22K.
Also a sorted low mile 3.0 for $10K, so the price is the sign of the times.

Thing with Porsche prices is they only made so many, you have all kinds of guys coming into inheritances or did well and a hot Porsche has always been their dream. The same thing is happening with the 914 prices.

As far as the debate a 180hp /4 is going run you around $10k+ done right. More once you count intake/exhaust, labour... you can easily get towards $20K on a nickies build.

Sucks for the budget/frugal Porsche owners, but it is what it is. We had a good run but those times are all but over.
No more poor man's Porsche, only a Porsche that made a man poor.
aggiezig
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 17 2018, 08:34 AM) *

No more poor man's Porsche, only a Porsche that made a man poor.


Cue the 944... Not air cooled, but another NARP in some eyes.
sithot
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 17 2018, 09:34 AM) *

No more poor man's Porsche, only a Porsche that made a man poor.


agree.gif
Rav914
QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 17 2018, 06:34 AM) *


Sucks for the budget/frugal Porsche owners, but it is what it is. We had a good run but those times are all but over.



Yeah it kinda does suck for the frugal guy and enthusiast. I enjoyed early 911's when they were cheap, old Porsches. I lived through watching my cars get stupid expensive (alas, I sold early). To me, it went from being an eccentric hobby into a dick measuring contest.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against money. I love money. The more the merrier. That's the upside. Money will be spent. People who make a living in restoration and other services will continue to do so. And I'm glad for them.

sithot
QUOTE(Rav914 @ May 17 2018, 11:48 AM) *

QUOTE(Mark Henry @ May 17 2018, 06:34 AM) *


Sucks for the budget/frugal Porsche owners, but it is what it is. We had a good run but those times are all but over.



To me, it went from being an eccentric hobby into a dick measuring contest.



Alas, the truth. agree.gif
Cupomeat
QUOTE(sithot @ May 16 2018, 09:08 AM) *

At a minimum it will need exhaust guides and a reseal.
Porsche used a *rare part on these cars which I've heard referred to as the "extra wear exhaust guide cover" (engine tray).


*Rare because few have survived biggrin.gif


happy11.gif
I have one of those RARE parts from my 993 C4... sitting in the garage and been off when I bought it in 2007. Must be worth at least 1/4 the lol-2.gif engine cost...
ConeDodger
QUOTE(r_towle @ May 17 2018, 03:35 AM) *

I love it when a plan comes together.


av-943.gif
Unobtanium-inc
I see a lot of big asks in terms of prices for motors, but actually selling one is a different story. We bought several truckloads of cars from one guy several years ago, one car was a 72 911 Targa with a 930 3.3 motor shoved into it. The car was running and driving but the engine was going to need a top end. Everyone said, "That motor is worth $25,000 all day long."
I wasn't sure, it's a lot newer than the stuff I normally deal in. I put it on ebay and it sat, and sat, eventually selling for $14,500.
Like I said, people ask a lot, but I find it more interesting to see what stuff actually sells for.

You can see a video here of the car driving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anc92Z3_WeU

somd914
I see a lot of high asking prices, and I see a lot of sixes being sold quickly... But I also see some sitting for quite a while...

No matter what they are really selling for, prices for engines and 911's are up, and to me it seems engine prices have gone up faster than car prices. It's hard to fathom that my 3.2 is 30-35% of the value of my 911 Carrera which is no concourse car but clean and well maintained.

My son recently bought an '82 SC with a 3.2 swap that underwent a top and bottom end rebuild, about 15k miles on the engine. In his case we figured buying a 3.2 and having it rebuilt would be about 70% the selling price of his car.
mepstein
An older turbo engine really only appeals to a guy who needs it for his old turbo chassis. It’s an expensive engine to rebuild and not nearly as much fun as a strong 3.6.
We’ve pulled a couple out of guys cars so they can run a 3.6/3.8 and a 5 speed 915, then mothballed the oem parts.
horizontally-opposed
Sign of the times, at some level—though it's probably useful to put today's (selling) prices into 2008, 1998, 1988, etc dollars to take the inflationary aspect out of it.

The 1997 Boxster was $39,980 when it debuted, which is $62,908~ in 2018 dollars.
The 2018 Boxster is $59,000 right now, which is $37,497~ in late 1996 dollars.

This engine's price, at $15,000 today, is $9,749~ in 1998 dollars and $12,834 in 2008 dollars. So...inflation + sign of the times. They aren't making more of these, and it isn't fun to see the engines become more precious. On the flip side, a lot of cars that would have been parted in the past are now being saved...and that is cool.
Beach914
82 3.2 motor with a top end rebuild for sale on LA Craigslist for $18k.
forrestkhaag
I can tell you from recent experience that full 3.0 rebuild including new valves, guides, springs, cam sprockets, one-piece chains, Carrera tensioners, all new gaskets, nuts & bolts, not including head studs cost me around 6K all in / most parts from Pelican.

My 3.0 core was 1K including everything but the shroud and the on-engine oil cooler. The core was well represented as a rebuildable core in need of valve guides or a top end freshening up. I went nuts for the fun of it and I took it down to every nut and bolt and carefully followed the book-advise on how to disassemble a 911 engine to prep for a rebuild.

The Vasek Polak trained mechanic in LA that guided me thru the rebuild process charged me a flat rate of 1000 bucks to make sure I didn't screw up anything. He was good for his word / he did not let me screw up anything. He also paid very careful attention to refitting things that needed to be in their original engine layout - back in their correct original place / His explanation was very detailed but simply put, engine things in race applications cause minute and separate wear and stress on every part in a 911 engine at one time or another. Put it back the way the factory assembled it, and it will go 400,000 miles before one needs to think about a "freshening up"... piratenanner.gif

He had a tank for the cleaning of the case halves etc. Everything was surgically cleaned then recleaned. We spent four two-hour sessions in his shop in the worse part of the nations worst city and survived to tell the story. once finished and the KEP Stage II clutch and flywheel was bolted up, 914Toy and I bolted the mill up to a Rich Johnson mount and throttle linkage that I installed in the car after shaving off the 4-mount tabs in engine bay.

The engine screams and is a well sealed, no leaker that just want to be run long and hard. And I do that almost daily for the fun of it.

Some of these cost quotes seem crazy to me but I am a simple man of simple means and cant afford or justify craziness in this car thing.

Sidebar: Speaking of crazy.... and looking, what should I expect to pay for a set of four decent 7x15 Fuch's wheels in useful condition sheeplove.gif .............

ConeDodger
Some of the numbers I've seen make sense in that I have been told 40 hours of labor to rebuild a Porsche 6. At $125 an hour which is the average around here, that's $5K in addition to $7K in parts and machine work. So, $12K is about average for a drop it off pick it up rebuild. My parts estimate comes from EBS...
mepstein
QUOTE(ConeDodger @ May 19 2018, 07:18 PM) *

Some of the numbers I've seen make sense in that I have been told 40 hours of labor to rebuild a Porsche 6. At $125 an hour which is the average around here, that's $5K in addition to $7K in parts and machine work. So, $12K is about average for a drop it off pick it up rebuild. My parts estimate comes from EBS...

That doesn’t include the 40 hours it takes to clean the parts.

And I’m being serious.
Mark Henry
QUOTE(mepstein @ May 19 2018, 08:04 PM) *

QUOTE(ConeDodger @ May 19 2018, 07:18 PM) *

Some of the numbers I've seen make sense in that I have been told 40 hours of labor to rebuild a Porsche 6. At $125 an hour which is the average around here, that's $5K in addition to $7K in parts and machine work. So, $12K is about average for a drop it off pick it up rebuild. My parts estimate comes from EBS...

That doesn’t include the 40 hours it takes to clean the parts.

And I’m being serious.

agree.gif
40 hours to rebuild a 6/ is pretty unrealistic.
Also I've rarely done a completely stock /6 rebuild, custom costs.


BTW just for comparison I'm getting a 996 block, JE pistons, Carrillo rods, Solution IMS, head gaskets, pump drive, sump kit from LN delivered on Tuesday. I think the total on that is close to $12K.
That doesn't include any other rebuild part, machining, headwork or labour...
somd914
QUOTE(ConeDodger @ May 19 2018, 07:18 PM) *

Some of the numbers I've seen make sense in that I have been told 40 hours of labor to rebuild a Porsche 6. At $125 an hour which is the average around here, that's $5K in addition to $7K in parts and machine work. So, $12K is about average for a drop it off pick it up rebuild. My parts estimate comes from EBS...

$125 an hour! Wow, around here you pay close to that for the run-of-the-mill crappy cut-rate national shops and everyday dealerships. Specialists, hmmm $$$.

As for parts, I just spent over $800 on engine fuel lines, $600 on sensors, $300 on oil supply/crankcase ventilation hoses, $50 on vacuum hoses, $85 on a cap/rotor, $800 on a clutch, and the list goes on even before getting inside the engine. Definitely not cheap engines to own/maintain in comparison to a Type IV, but cheap in comparison to the Italian boys...

MoveQik
These are the threads that I show my wife. "See honey, my 3.2 was a great investment even including the top end rebuild." I bought mine in 2005 for $5,500 and paid for the top end about 6 years later.
ConeDodger
That 40 hour figure comes from EBS (yes, they build motors) IPB Autosport (Ron is a member here) and Reno Rennsport...
Wayne at Pelican says 30-40 hours. Another shop in Seattle says 40-42.

Pick up the pace maybe? poke.gif av-943.gif
Mark Henry
QUOTE(ConeDodger @ May 20 2018, 02:44 AM) *

That 40 hour figure comes from EBS (yes, they build motors) IPB Autosport (Ron is a member here) and Reno Rennsport...
Wayne at Pelican says 30-40 hours. Another shop in Seattle says 40-42.

Pick up the pace maybe? poke.gif av-943.gif


If a customer quotes 40 hours to me I'll tell them they're to send it to EBS (or to Jake for 996), between shipping, brokerage and USD exchange let's see how much they save.

lol-2.gif

Really I don't haggle, if you don't like the price I'm sure someone else will do it cheaper.
I turn away jobs all the time because I can. I'm always booked minimum 3-6 months in advance on big jobs.
ClayPerrine
agree.gif

Mark is right. I probably have 20K in my motor alone. Not including labor or the custom work to hook up the Cayman trans. But that includes the cost of the ER visit to have my hand stitched up. biggrin.gif

964/993 engine rebuilds are not cheap in any way, shape or form. Heck, the plug wire set is approximately $600.00. But I wanted this for my car. It is going to be great when it is finished.


mepstein
I think you can do 40 if all the parts are laid out on the table. Cleaned, measured, pre fitted, ect. The tear down takes a while. Removing corroded nuts from heat exchangers. Removing head studs, cleaning the case (even after you send it out to be cleaned) and all the other parts. Measuring parts to check specs, ect.
sithot
Contact Jeff Gamroth-Rothsport, Marco @ TLG, Peter Dawes, The 901 Shop or JB Racing and get back to us on pricing. popcorn[1].gif

FWIW; here's Ollies price list à la carte! Mag cases should be checked and align bored if necessary. At a minimum head studs and case savers.
As for 3.0 and 3.2 engines, all of the head studs MUST be replaced. IMHO, any engine taken down to the case off should have them replaced as preventative maintenance.

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