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ericoneal
I took my engine out (dual carburetors) awhile back to put in a new clutch. Reinstalled the engine and now it wont start unless I pump the accelerator pedal like crazy. Also, the tach is not working which seems to indicate maybe a coil problem?

I am getting plenty of fuel in the carbs and a spark on all for plug wires. I tried also rotating the distributor slightly each way to check that maybe it was a timing issue, but that did nothing.

Like I said, the car starts if I pump the gas pedal, but will not stay running if I do not.
Stumped. Any ideas guys? I'm sure its something simple, this thing ran great before...

Anything else to try would be helpful. THanks

dr914@autoatlanta.com
check the dwell angle and make sure it is good at 50. Also check the leads to the coil, green and black with purple on the 1 or negative side, and black on the positive or 15 side. After that check the fuel pump to make sure that it is delivering fuel by removing a the hose where it comes up into the engine bay and putting it into a bottle and turn the key on to start the pump running. It should deliver a steady stream.

You can also statically set the timing to get it close to where it should be by putting the car on number one top dead center on a compression stroke and the zero mark on the fan. Then put a test light on the negative side of the coil and move both ways a bit to where the light turns and then just turns off. When it just turns off that should be timing on zero degrees, good enough to start the engine. Beyond that you could have a carb problem where maybe after sitting the floats are sticking


QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 26 2018, 06:56 AM) *

I took my engine out (dual carburetors) awhile back to put in a new clutch. Reinstalled the engine and now it wont start unless I pump the accelerator pedal like crazy. Also, the tach is not working which seems to indicate maybe a coil problem?

I am getting plenty of fuel in the carbs and a spark on all for plug wires. I tried also rotating the distributor slightly each way to check that maybe it was a timing issue, but that did nothing.

Like I said, the car starts if I pump the gas pedal, but will not stay running if I do not.
Stumped. Any ideas guys? I'm sure its something simple, this thing ran great before...

Anything else to try would be helpful. THanks
ericoneal
Pretty sure the coil is wired correctly, I took pictures before I unhooked it, odd that the tach is no longer working though..
Fuel pump is running and fuel is squirting into carbs, will check to be sure its steady tonight. Also checked to be sure rotor was pointing are plug 1 when at TDC on fan. Test light is good idea, will check that as well.
Will Google sticky floats.

Thanks

QUOTE(dr914@autoatlanta.com @ Nov 26 2018, 10:19 AM) *

check the dwell angle and make sure it is good at 50. Also check the leads to the coil, green and black with purple on the 1 or negative side, and black on the positive or 15 side. After that check the fuel pump to make sure that it is delivering fuel by removing a the hose where it comes up into the engine bay and putting it into a bottle and turn the key on to start the pump running. It should deliver a steady stream.

You can also statically set the timing to get it close to where it should be by putting the car on number one top dead center on a compression stroke and the zero mark on the fan. Then put a test light on the negative side of the coil and move both ways a bit to where the light turns and then just turns off. When it just turns off that should be timing on zero degrees, good enough to start the engine. Beyond that you could have a carb problem where maybe after sitting the floats are sticking


QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 26 2018, 06:56 AM) *

I took my engine out (dual carburetors) awhile back to put in a new clutch. Reinstalled the engine and now it wont start unless I pump the accelerator pedal like crazy. Also, the tach is not working which seems to indicate maybe a coil problem?

I am getting plenty of fuel in the carbs and a spark on all for plug wires. I tried also rotating the distributor slightly each way to check that maybe it was a timing issue, but that did nothing.

Like I said, the car starts if I pump the gas pedal, but will not stay running if I do not.
Stumped. Any ideas guys? I'm sure its something simple, this thing ran great before...

Anything else to try would be helpful. THanks


Mblizzard
Because the Tach draws its signal from the coil, I have to think there is a problem in the way you put the wires back on the coil.
Tdskip
If you didn't move the distributor when the engine was out - and it ran fine before - leave it and focus on the wiring connections. Don't think the timing would change by itself.... One thing at a time!

Before moving on to anything else you may want to see if it will run well on ether.

EDIT - if the wiring is OK and it runs on ether then it might be floats / fuel level.

Keep us posted.
IronHillRestorations
Spark, air, fuel, compression. It's one of those.

Start with making sure your ignition is working right; timing (including dwell), firing order is correct, and make sure your all other ignition components are good. I have a spark tester where you can see the spark, and adjust the air gap to make sure you're getting a hot enough spark.

I'd pull your points and make sure they are good. Look at the distributor cap and make sure the center contact hasn't come out. Check the resistance of your coil. Replace the condenser if it's suspect at all.

Make sure your plugs aren't fouled and the correct heat range for a carb'd engine.

Make sure you are getting enough fuel. I personally have bent a rubber fuel hose enough to restrict fuel flow to cause a problem. Some fuel hose is more susceptible to this. I personally haven't used propane, but I've been told you can blow propane down the carb throats enough to get an engine to run.

I've put gas in a mist bottle and sprayed it in the carbs (using protective leather jacket and gloves) but I'd consider it a risky move if you aren't set up to do it (adult help, fire extinguisher, etc).
ericoneal
Still no luck, here is what I did:

1. I checked the fuel lines to both carbs, plenty of gas from the fuel pump.
2. put new connectors on wires to the coil, double checked they were wired correctly. Tach works now.
3. Set TDC to be sure rotor was pointing at mark on distributes (plug 1)
4. Checked connections on the relay board.
5. INspected distributor cap, all looked fine.
6. Checked for kinks in the fuel line
7. Checked firing order.
8. Checked for spark by connecting strobe to wires to see flash, did not check spark at plugs. Did do this when I was having issues a couple months ago and they were fine.
9. Points were also checked at that time and were fine.

I made a video of what is happening, maybe it will be obvious to one of you. Note crazy legs on the gas pedal just to keep it running.

POS 914 Sputtering Video



I really dont want to have this thing towed...

Thanks

Tdskip
That sounds like a P-51 Merlin warming up.

Seems like a fuel issue to me ( May well be wrong, make sure to get lots of other opinions)

Have you clean the carbs yet? I wonder if they got gunked up while they were sitting?

How long were they off the car?
second wind
I lost three months of run time with my car due to bad coil.....plugs would spark but not under compression.....worth a try to change coil....my two cents....
gg
Mblizzard
I have o say its fuel as well.

Do the standard spray starting fluid in carbs to see if it runs.

If it does run then check fuel pressure if it is low look for kinked line. next start the process of cleaning out the carbs.
ericoneal
I sprayed fluid in the carbs and it fires up easier, but still runs like the same, like crap...
Is there details or a walk through somewhere for cleaning these things? Do I need to tear them down, or can I just shoot some carb cleaner on them?
rhodyguy
Is it possible to maintain 2.7-3k rpm with a steady, not pumping, gas peddle? Points or A.M. Spark module?
mobymutt
QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 27 2018, 09:36 AM) *

I sprayed fluid in the carbs and it fires up easier, but still runs like the same, like crap...
Is there details or a walk through somewhere for cleaning these things? Do I need to tear them down, or can I just shoot some carb cleaner on them?


I also vote for gummed up carbs. When you press the accelerator like that, don't the carbs pump in extra fuel via a different circuit of some sort?

There are tonnes of videos on YouTube, see if you can find one you like. Here's a random link I found:

https://the-bug-club.webs.com/cleaningwebber44jets.htm

IronHillRestorations
How long did it sit? My guess is the fuel that was left in the carb float bowls evaporated down and has gummed them up.

Based on reading your replies, I'd start by pulling all the jets and soaking them in carb cleaner. That said, the best thing would be to pull the carbs, disassemble, clean/soak, put in a new gasket kit, put them back on the car.

I'd change the fuel filter too, regardless.
ericoneal
Sent the video to a local guy here who is very good and he also suspects the carbs, in particular the linkage, and whether it may be out of adjustment.
I have VERY good reason to think that the linkage was mucked with egregiously when I pulled the engine out.
What say you guys? Are these the symptoms of a badly adjusted dual carb linkage?

I double and triple checked all of the wires and I'm pretty sure my electrical connections are good and its getting plenty of fuel form the pump.
Mblizzard
QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 27 2018, 09:54 AM) *

Sent the video to a local guy here who is very good and he also suspects the carbs, in particular the linkage, and whether it may be out of adjustment.
I have VERY good reason to think that the linkage was mucked with egregiously when I pulled the engine out.
What say you guys? Are these the symptoms of a badly adjusted dual carb linkage?

I double and triple checked all of the wires and I'm pretty sure my electrical connections are good and its getting plenty of fuel form the pump.


Well the linkage would have to be seriously screwed to produce those results so it is possible. What type of linkage do you have?
ericoneal
Its a single hexbar between the two. Pretty sure it seriously screwed. At least im hoping its as bad as I think
Tdskip
You should be able to disconnect the bar and set each carb to idle and fire it up.

I'd try than and report back.

Mblizzard
QUOTE(Tdskip @ Nov 27 2018, 10:26 AM) *

You should be able to disconnect the bar and set each carb to idle and fire it up.

I'd try than and report back.



If this works seriously look into the CSP bell crank linkage. Some people have good luck with hex bar set ups but I have never been able to get them to stay set. Likely operator error I know!
TheCabinetmaker
Sounds like the engine is fighting itself to run from being out of time. Fried condenser might cause that too, but it sounds ignition to me!
Triaddave
It may sound stupid but maybe a kinked fuel line or clogged fuel filter.
marksteinhilber
You have unsteady firing from a number of cylinders, but there is fuel so the car runs. It could be a carb or ignition problem. How do you know you have a strong spark at each plug? How old are your plugs and plug wires? Are any of the plug wires arcing to metal where they are touching. Plug wires will show where they are discharging to metal grounds. For this reason I make sure none of my plug wires are touching metal or each other by looming them and by using zip-ties to make wire separators. Check for fouled plugs. They should not have excessive gap or wear, nor excessive deposits. A spark checker or an inductive timing light placed right before the spark plug can tell you if one or more of your plug wires is grounding out to metal. Once you are sure you have a strong spark at each plug, then you can start to look for erratic fuel delivery problems. If you have a dual carb set up, it may then be caused by clogged jets or an adjustment on one or more barrels. Might be a good time to check the balance of flow and re-tune.
ericoneal
I will double check the spark tonight by pulling the plugs and watching them. Previously just used timing light on plug wire to check for spark.
Fuel lines are not kinked, checked those. Will post back. THanks for all of the suggestions everyone.
cgnj
QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 28 2018, 02:35 PM) *

I will double check the spark tonight by pulling the plugs and watching them. Previously just used timing light on plug wire to check for spark.
Fuel lines are not kinked, checked those. Will post back. THanks for all of the suggestions everyone.


Watched the video. you are clearly running on pump jets, till you flood. I'm going to assume that you pulled the carbs off to drop the motor.
you have at least two problems, one you have already repaired (loose/ intermittent connection at coil).

Take off the engine lid if it is still on. Check the throttle stops and make sure that both carbs are on the idle stop. Clean the idle jets and replace. Take off air cleaners, operate the linkage and observe that each bore squirts. try to start car. two pumps on throttle, throttle close then twist key. If it fails to idle, seat each mixture screw counting the turns on each bore and write them down,observe if any are more than 2.5 turns. Seat the air bypass screws (only one should be open on each side). It's ok for all of theem to be closed, but not 2 open on a single side) Try to start the car using th method already described. You want to avoid using the pump jets two much, Let it stall if it wants to, it should run longer as it warms up.

hope this helps,
Carlos
sdoolin
Watched the video also. I think you have a linkage problem, engine is likely only running on one side or the other at idle.

I have a uni-syn tool and like 30 years of experience living with dual carbs running off of a hex bar linkage, and I am 20 mins away. PMd you and should be able to assist this weekend.
ericoneal
Thats why this website is great. PMed received, will call you at 5:00 to set up a time and to chat further.

Thanks all!

Also, and I may neglected to mention this. The reason that I took the linkage off was because I couldnt remove the throttle cable from the linkage. It appears that someone completely rounded out the set screw. I have a new cable on there, but it is likely not attached correctly. Anyway, there is enough slack so that the linkage returns to idle, so I really dont think that is a contributing issue, but be aware.

QUOTE(sdoolin @ Nov 29 2018, 08:33 AM) *

Watched the video also. I think you have a linkage problem, engine is likely only running on one side or the other at idle.

I have a uni-syn tool and like 30 years of experience living with dual carbs running off of a hex bar linkage, and I am 20 mins away. PMd you and should be able to assist this weekend.

Mblizzard
QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 29 2018, 09:30 AM) *

Thats why this website is great. PMed received, will call you at 5:00 to set up a time and to chat further.

Thanks all!

Also, and I may neglected to mention this. The reason that I took the linkage off was because I couldnt remove the throttle cable from the linkage. It appears that someone completely rounded out the set screw. I have a new cable on there, but it is likely not attached correctly. Anyway, there is enough slack so that the linkage returns to idle, so I really dont think that is a contributing issue, but be aware.

QUOTE(sdoolin @ Nov 29 2018, 08:33 AM) *

Watched the video also. I think you have a linkage problem, engine is likely only running on one side or the other at idle.

I have a uni-syn tool and like 30 years of experience living with dual carbs running off of a hex bar linkage, and I am 20 mins away. PMd you and should be able to assist this weekend.


This is exactly what this is such a great community! People will actually provide their knowledge and offer to roll up their sleeves, get their hands dirty, and help!


Tdskip
Making progress....please keep us posted and someone better buy @sdoolin a beer.
ericoneal
I got it covered..

QUOTE(Tdskip @ Nov 29 2018, 02:50 PM) *

Making progress....please keep us posted and someone better buy @sdoolin a beer.

cgnj
post a pic of your carbs and linkage as they are currently installed.
ericoneal
sdoolin rolled over this afternoon in his great looking blue 914. We didnt make alot of progress, but I got a nice crash course in cleaning carb jets.

We cleaned the the jets, looked at the linkage synchronization, and double-checked the timing, with no effect. We know its getting spark and fuel because flames shooting out of the stacks. biggrin.gif

Not sure what else to check. Carbs are clean and mostly synced. Timing was double checked. Anyone have ANY ideas before I have thing towed on Tuesday would be more than welcome. poke.gif
Maybe I'll start a bounty with a small cash prize...

I really miss driving this thing.
wndsrfr
QUOTE(ericoneal @ Nov 30 2018, 07:26 PM) *

sdoolin rolled over this afternoon in his great looking blue 914. We didnt make alot of progress, but I got a nice crash course in cleaning carb jets.

We cleaned the the jets, looked at the linkage synchronization, and double-checked the timing, with no effect. We know its getting spark and fuel because flames shooting out of the stacks. biggrin.gif

Not sure what else to check. Carbs are clean and mostly synced. Timing was double checked. Anyone have ANY ideas before I have thing towed on Tuesday would be more than welcome. poke.gif
Maybe I'll start a bounty with a small cash prize...

I really miss driving this thing.

Uhhhh....you're so close...if you're getting backfire flames then it's timing or just as simple as plug wires switched on the cap or the plug end....carefully go back over both...
sdoolin
As Eric said, not a fuel issue. We removed and cleaned idle jets and main jets (they were clean but we double checked). Oh, and for the record my Dellortos are MUCH easier to work on - but that is another story. All accelerator pumps pushing gas, and carbs are synched well from side to side. Certainly well enough to run. Impressive flames out of the tops of the carbs seems like a timing issue. We did double check and it seemed correct (but Eric had a shit selection of beer so who knows if the timing was right).

Removed the number 2 plug and it was sooty and black, but dry. Then we lost battery. I think Eric is gonna replace plugs and wires (and maybe battery) and give it another shot before towing it.
Tdskip
Well - look at it this way, the carb work sounds like it needed to be done anyway so not a loss of effort.

Press on!
cgnj
basics 101

At this point, I would jack it jp put in 5th and and confirm tdc ##1 but observing the valves. then confirm the rotor is point towards the index mark on distributor. Im anal, since I already dug in this far I would check the valve lash on all four any way.

If the timing is correct is mechanically correct, I'd target coil, points distributor, plugs wires.
injunmort
do you have access to a timing light? how are you sure timing is correct. sounds like you need to reset static timing get the engine running and then set it with a light. if you are getting flames out of the carbs, you have a timing issue.
ericoneal
QUOTE(injunmort @ Dec 1 2018, 02:29 PM) *

do you have access to a timing light? how are you sure timing is correct. sounds like you need to reset static timing get the engine running and then set it with a light. if you are getting flames out of the carbs, you have a timing issue.


We put the engine at TDC, according to the fan, and the rotor was pointing at plug wire #1. Is there something else more to it than that?
Wondering if one or two of the sparkplugs are not firing now when cranking. Of course the battery is dead (I hope thats what it is), so it will be until tonight before I can test that.... headbang.gif
I have no idea what else to try.

injunmort
yes, there is more to it than that. are you running points or electronic? with the engine on tdc on #1 compression, rotate distributor until points start to open. lock it down. put rotor/cap back on and start. warm up and then put timing light on #1. rev past 3500rpm and set your timing on the advance mark before tdc. done by loosening distributor and rotating until the marks align.
ericoneal
Thanks, I'm familar with timing the engine once its running, but at this point its only running for a split second unless I mash on the gas.
I think my next step is to be sure TDC is accurate although I have confirmed that the fan mark has the distributor pointing at plug wire one, then it should be. Going look at valves and mark on the fly wheel tonight as a double check.

QUOTE(injunmort @ Dec 6 2018, 10:27 AM) *

yes, there is more to it than that. are you running points or electronic? with the engine on tdc on #1 compression, rotate distributor until points start to open. lock it down. put rotor/cap back on and start. warm up and then put timing light on #1. rev past 3500rpm and set your timing on the advance mark before tdc. done by loosening distributor and rotating until the marks align.

injunmort
you must make sure points are opening when you set tdc. while in there you might want to gap points and clean them. your points plate could be out even with the rotor pointing at #1.
rhodyguy
Try turning the idle up using ONE idle speed adjusting screw. Just one. Dr side is most convenient. Now you have some weird linkage bind out of the equation and you can get a pretty high idle speed if needed. Did you go with the old carb to intake gaskets? I consider them a one time use item. Go thru the whole carb preinstall setup, Cb manual, air-cooled.net, etc. you'll be time ahead starting from scratch. Show us your linkage. How much does your cross bar shift side to side?
mobymutt
Are you sure the firing order is correct? My car initially had plugged up carbs, timing off and not well synced, and the thing still ran (not well, but it ran). Only time I had symptoms like yours was when I switched the plug wires around.
wndsrfr
QUOTE(mobymutt @ Dec 6 2018, 11:59 AM) *

Are you sure the firing order is correct? My car initially had plugged up carbs, timing off and not well synced, and the thing still ran (not well, but it ran). Only time I had symptoms like yours was when I switched the plug wires around.

agree.gif
However, I have seen a situation where the points rubbing block had worn entirely down due to no lube so the points were not really opening at all...be sure that they are actually breaking contact...check it with a test light, easy to do.
Rand
I haven't read the whole thread. But you know the basics. Assuming compression hasn't suddenly changed, how have you test for spark and fuel? If you put a plug on a wire and ground it, does it spark? Ten seconds. Fuel gets a little more timely, but not hard. You have to answer fuel and spark before this continues spiraling. Timing and tuning comes AFTER that.
Spoke
In the video, your first key turn resulted in the engine firing up and running strong for a second or 2. I'd guess that the timing is ok and the plugs are correctly routed.
second wind
For $50 I would buy a new coil to totally eliminate that possibility....when I finally did my car suddenly started on only three cylinders as I forgot to connect one. Plugs do weird things under compression.....jus' sayin'
gg
Rand
Coils have a VERY low failure rate. Test first.
Tdskip
QUOTE(Spoke @ Dec 7 2018, 07:48 PM) *

In the video, your first key turn resulted in the engine firing up and running strong for a second or 2. I'd guess that the timing is ok and the plugs are correctly routed.


With all of the changes might be a good idea to get a new video of how she sits as of now posted.
ericoneal
I got the new starter on today, so at least I am back at square one and she it turning over again. A new video woundnt be worth much as its still doing the same thing.
I set TDC again today with the fan and rotor pointing at plug one. THen got under the car and checked #1 valves. I could move the intake and exhaust rockers slightly and they were gapped perfectly, so that valve is closed(?), indicating true TDC. Also checked a mark I made on the flywheel for valve adjustments and it was there.

I tried a new distributor cap that I had in the basement, and nothing. I triple checked the plugs and even moved them 90 and 180 degrees to test.

So at this point we know:

The carbs are clean and somewhat adjusted
TDC is true and static timing should be on
I'm getting a spark on all four plug wires
Its getting fuel.

Next, I plan to check gap on the points. They were open at TDC, but maybe too much?
Also found a spare coil to try.

I have three more days to get this thing running..

Thanks for all of the suggestions guys, please keep them coming.
Tdskip
0.016", same as any other 914 or Type IV motor.

--DD

( via Google and Pelican)
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