Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Any D Jet experts in Seattle?
914World.com > The 914 Forums > 914World Garage
Robson51
Looking for some help from an in person human being before going to Webers.

Anyone out in Seattle (actually just north) that wants to make some side money?

TIA
sixnotfour
@914werke millcreek area
Robson51
QUOTE(sixnotfour @ Sep 5 2020, 11:02 AM) *

@914werke millcreek area


Thanks-I know of him but he's pretty busy.
Jett
Redmond European... Monty has the right equipment to quickly root cause
Bleyseng
What's wrong with it? I am on Beacon Hill. Rich D has my Djet tester but let's hear the issues
rjames
I just spent the last 2 summers get my DJet back in running order and may be able to help.

That said, give as many details as you can and maybe with everyone's help here it can be a remote fix. smile.gif

Robson51
QUOTE(rjames @ Sep 5 2020, 02:17 PM) *

I just spent the last 2 summers get my DJet back in running order and may be able to help.

That said, give as many details as you can and maybe with everyone's help here it can be a remote fix. smile.gif



OK-here's the list.

Injectors rebuilt by Witchhunter, but one always left a plug wet, so it has recently been changed to a NOS one

AAV tests good, as does the MPC. New TPS set with an ohm meter. New gaskets and sleeves on the intake manifold, new vacuum hoses.

Fuel pump tested at 28 pounds. Compression over 125 on all cylinders. Valves set.

New Pertronix, cap, rotor and wires. Timing set properly at full advance. Trigger points looked really good and were checked that they were contacting. New connectors on injector wiring harness.

ECU is set 11 clicks from full stop left.

Car is hard to start, and seems to flood. Just put a clamp on the cold start injector and it seems to start easier. Need to get it out on the road to clear it out.

My latest thought is the cold start injector is on all the time or bad or leaking. Taking it out of the system seemed to help but the car is so loaded up with fuel it will take a while to get it to run clean.

Any other ideas? I'm really to the point where I think it needs fresh eyes on it.

Thanks-
Bleyseng
First- Is the Cylinder Temp sensor good? Test it per PB Anders site. So carefully remove it without losing the little washer. What the number? Ending in 003- 012 or 017? What ECU do you have?

Test the CHT cold (ohms resistance) and then in boiling water. That sensor controls the AFR depending on the engine temperature and usually if its hard to start and rich thats the problem. Or it mis matches with the ECU casing problems.

MPS is good. How did you test it? With a vacuum pump pulling 15hg and no leakdown after 5 minutes??
914werke
Sorry, been convalescing. But try & help anyway I can.
As Geoff mentioned I have a d-jet tester at my disposal
Robson51
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 5 2020, 04:26 PM) *

First- Is the Cylinder Temp sensor good? Test it per PB Anders site. So carefully remove it without losing the little washer. What the number? Ending in 003- 012 or 017? What ECU do you have?

Test the CHT cold (ohms resistance) and then in boiling water. That sensor controls the AFR depending on the engine temperature and usually if its hard to start and rich thats the problem. Or it mis matches with the ECU casing problems.

MPS is good. How did you test it? With a vacuum pump pulling 15hg and no leakdown after 5 minutes??


CHT is new, but will check the number. I've only seen one listed for sale for '74 2.0

Will check the number on the ECU.

Yes, MPS passed a leakdown test.
Bleyseng
MPS number is 043? ECU number is ending in 044?
So one plug is wet so I would test it by pulling it and putting in a glass see thru bottle. Disconnect the coil wires so there is no spark and with a assistant or remote start button look at the spray pattern and if it leaks. Heck check them all then you know they are good. Disconnect the cold start valve and bypass the fuel hose to it to get it out of the fuel system as here its really not needed.
Bleyseng
"ECU is 11 clicks from full stop left"
Do you mean it is turned CW or CCW? There should be a small notch at the idle mix knob so I would set it there. That is the Factory setting I am not sure how you have it set.
Robson51
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 5 2020, 05:46 PM) *

MPS number is 043? ECU number is ending in 044?
So one plug is wet so I would test it by pulling it and putting in a glass see thru bottle. Disconnect the coil wires so there is no spark and with a assistant or remote start button look at the spray pattern and if it leaks. Heck check them all then you know they are good. Disconnect the cold start valve and bypass the fuel hose to it to get it out of the fuel system as here its really not needed.


Already replaced the wet plug one with a new injector but will gather the part numbers and get back to you. Is there a compatibility chart somewhere?

Will plug cold start

Thanks!
Robson51
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 5 2020, 06:12 PM) *

"ECU is 11 clicks from full stop left"
Do you mean it is turned CW or CCW? There should be a small notch at the idle mix knob so I would set it there. That is the Factory setting I am not sure how you have it set.


I heard from Continental Motors to turn it all the way CCW then back to the right CW 11 clicks. It’s back to the factory setting.
Bleyseng
QUOTE(Robson51 @ Sep 6 2020, 08:07 AM) *

QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 5 2020, 06:12 PM) *

"ECU is 11 clicks from full stop left"
Do you mean it is turned CW or CCW? There should be a small notch at the idle mix knob so I would set it there. That is the Factory setting I am not sure how you have it set.


I heard from Continental Motors to turn it all the way CCW then back to the right CW 11 clicks. It’s back to the factory setting.


No, there is a tiny notch in the lip and that is the Factory setting. But the way to set the idle mix is to run the car until its hot say, 20 minutes of driving. Plug the AAR hoses to make sure no leaks and then adjust the idle screw on the ECU slowly till it runs the best. Wait 30 secs at each click for the engine to adjust to the new mixture setting. 11 clicks CW sounds really rich to me. I'll take a pic of the notch.
mightyohm
Cold start should not be operating this time of year. I don't think my car ever had a working CSV when it ran d-jet and I never noticed.

Once the car is warmed up does it run ok, or does it bog down and blow smoke?
rjames
Did the car ever run well with the parts it has installed? If yes, when did the issue started happening?

If running rich check:
MPS leaking or not set correctly for your engine (is it original to your car? Is the seal still in place?)
ECU knob in wrong spot (put it in the middle and go from there)
CHT sensor
Check injection harness grounds (they are grounded to the chassis at the back of the engine)
If you unplug the air temp sensor (on the plenum on the driver’s side next to the AAR valve) does it get better?

Ruling out your injectors since they were just serviced.

All the DJet info you could want:
https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/DJetParts.htm#parts
Robson51
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 5 2020, 05:46 PM) *

MPS number is 043? ECU number is ending in 044?
So one plug is wet so I would test it by pulling it and putting in a glass see thru bottle. Disconnect the coil wires so there is no spark and with a assistant or remote start button look at the spray pattern and if it leaks. Heck check them all then you know they are good. Disconnect the cold start valve and bypass the fuel hose to it to get it out of the fuel system as here its really not needed.


Plugged the cold start and still super rich. Runs with black smoke and won’t idle.

MPS ends in 043. ECU ends in 044. CHT is a new one from 914Rubber says conforms to 0 280 130 012 spec.

Robson51
QUOTE(rjames @ Sep 7 2020, 10:04 AM) *

Did the car ever run well with the parts it has installed? If yes, when did the issue started happening?

If running rich check:
MPS leaking or not set correctly for your engine (is it original to your car? Is the seal still in place?)
ECU knob in wrong spot (put it in the middle and go from there)
CHT sensor
Check injection harness grounds (they are grounded to the chassis at the back of the engine)
If you unplug the air temp sensor (on the plenum on the driver’s side next to the AAR valve) does it get better?

Ruling out your injectors since they were just serviced.

All the DJet info you could want:
https://members.rennlist.com/pbanders/DJetParts.htm#parts



Checked MPS and not leaking. It's a replacement from original as a spare was included with the car in a box of old parts.

ECU knob in the middle
CHT sensor new from 914Rubber
Harness grounds spotless.

Have not unplugged the air temp sensor.

The weird thing is that it was running and driving, not perfectly but OK. Drove it to a soccer game, wouldn't start and turned out to be a fuel pump relay. Changed out the relay, now really rich and not running well enough to drive.
Robson51
QUOTE(mightyohm @ Sep 6 2020, 05:26 PM) *

Cold start should not be operating this time of year. I don't think my car ever had a working CSV when it ran d-jet and I never noticed.

Once the car is warmed up does it run ok, or does it bog down and blow smoke?


Can't keep it running long enough to warm up, bogs down and blows black smoke.
rjames
QUOTE


Checked MPS and not leaking. It's a replacement from original as a spare was included with the car in a box of old parts


Very likely it needs to be tuned for your car. They aren’t always ‘plug and play’.
Might explain why it was running just ‘ok’ before.
Rand
Bypass the CSV, you don't need it and it's a problem point. Does behavior change if you pull the hose off the MPS?
Robson51
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 6 2020, 03:53 PM) *

QUOTE(Robson51 @ Sep 6 2020, 08:07 AM) *

QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 5 2020, 06:12 PM) *

"ECU is 11 clicks from full stop left"
Do you mean it is turned CW or CCW? There should be a small notch at the idle mix knob so I would set it there. That is the Factory setting I am not sure how you have it set.


I heard from Continental Motors to turn it all the way CCW then back to the right CW 11 clicks. It’s back to the factory setting.


No, there is a tiny notch in the lip and that is the Factory setting. But the way to set the idle mix is to run the car until its hot say, 20 minutes of driving. Plug the AAR hoses to make sure no leaks and then adjust the idle screw on the ECU slowly till it runs the best. Wait 30 secs at each click for the engine to adjust to the new mixture setting. 11 clicks CW sounds really rich to me. I'll take a pic of the notch.



Did you ever get around to taking a picture of your ECU and the notch?

Thanks-
Robson51
for an update-car is running and getting better all the time.

Blocked off the Cold Start, grounded the CHT and blocked off the Auxiliary Air Valve. Retraced all the vacuum hoses and found a PO mistake there. ECU set in the middle.

Fresh plugs and a long drive and it's running better.

Rechecked the MPS with a better vacuum gauge. It will not hold vacuum, so is being sent out for repair.

Once the MPS is back, I'll start adding components back in. Hopefully it will let it start easier!

Any other things to look for?
Bleyseng
I think I have a good used one if you want for reasonable
914werke
QUOTE(Robson51 @ Sep 14 2020, 10:42 AM) *
Rechecked the MPS with a better vacuum gauge. It will not hold vacuum, so is being sent out for repair.


A bad MPS will do it. headbang.gif
Rand
QUOTE(914werke @ Sep 14 2020, 02:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Robson51 @ Sep 14 2020, 10:42 AM) *
Rechecked the MPS with a better vacuum gauge. It will not hold vacuum, so is being sent out for repair.


A bad MPS will do it. headbang.gif

THIS is why i asked you to pull the hose from the MPS and report the difference. headbang.gif
Some clues point to obvious and when it only takes SECONDS to test....
Robson51
QUOTE(Rand @ Sep 14 2020, 02:44 PM) *

QUOTE(914werke @ Sep 14 2020, 02:22 PM) *

QUOTE(Robson51 @ Sep 14 2020, 10:42 AM) *
Rechecked the MPS with a better vacuum gauge. It will not hold vacuum, so is being sent out for repair.


A bad MPS will do it. headbang.gif

THIS is why i asked you to pull the hose from the MPS and report the difference. headbang.gif
Some clues point to obvious and when it only takes SECONDS to test....


Actually, it died when I did that. The leakdown takes a good minute to go to zero.
Robson51
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 14 2020, 01:10 PM) *

I think I have a good used one if you want for reasonable


Thanks but sent to Bowlsby already.
Rand
QUOTE(Robson51 @ Sep 15 2020, 02:43 PM) *

Actually, it died when I did that. The leakdown takes a good minute to go to zero.

Sorry about that, I took it too literal when you said it won't hold a vacuum. Holding for a minute isn't as bad as it sounded, and since it died when you pulled the hose it also shows it was holding some vacuum. Sounds like there's more going on than just the MPS diaphragm. Good luck, you're in good hands.
Bleyseng
QUOTE(Rand @ Sep 15 2020, 06:11 PM) *

QUOTE(Robson51 @ Sep 15 2020, 02:43 PM) *

Actually, it died when I did that. The leakdown takes a good minute to go to zero.

Sorry about that, I took it too literal when you said it won't hold a vacuum. Holding for a minute isn't as bad as it sounded, and since it died when you pulled the hose it also shows it was holding some vacuum. Sounds like there's more going on than just the MPS diaphragm. Good luck, you're in good hands.


That just means the diaphragm is cracked halfway and not completely blown apart.
Rand
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 16 2020, 07:21 AM) *

QUOTE(Rand @ Sep 15 2020, 06:11 PM) *

QUOTE(Robson51 @ Sep 15 2020, 02:43 PM) *

Actually, it died when I did that. The leakdown takes a good minute to go to zero.

Sorry about that, I took it too literal when you said it won't hold a vacuum. Holding for a minute isn't as bad as it sounded, and since it died when you pulled the hose it also shows it was holding some vacuum. Sounds like there's more going on than just the MPS diaphragm. Good luck, you're in good hands.


That just means the diaphragm is cracked halfway and not completely blown apart.

Clearly. Just saying there's probably more to it than just the diaphragm given it does hold that long. But hoping the returned unit is a fix.
thelogo
Stop me if you've heard this one ( i know you haven't)

A priest , a cop , and a witchdoctor walk into a bar sheeplove.gif

The priest says . anybody know how to fix a 914 with djet
The cop says those cant still be around . all have broken down or caught on fire. And even if they were still around nobody go's thru all that hassel for 81 horsepower

The witchdoctor says hey ill take a look . but pray for me

The preist says . i gave up praying and started drinking a long time ago . thats why im in a bar . ill just get some carbs instead sheeplove.gif so i wont always be operating on a wing and a prayer as djet although lasting well past its intended lifetime is no longer worth saving screwy.gif stirthepot.gif
rjames
@Rand Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the engine would run at all if the hose to the MPS is disconnected, with or without plugging the hose.
Not trying to be an ass, just want to understand what could be learned from removing the hose to the MPS in this situation if the above is true. Seems akin to disconnecting the fuel pump while the engine is running to try and determine if there is an issue with the pump not delivering enough fuel.

I'm also betting that a rebuilt MPS that is properly calibrated for Robson51's engine will solve the issue. An MPS that only holds vacuum for a minute could cause all of the issues described.
Rand
QUOTE(rjames @ Sep 16 2020, 03:35 PM) *

@Rand Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think the engine would run at all if the hose to the MPS is disconnected, with or without plugging the hose.
Not trying to be an ass, just want to understand what could be learned from removing the hose to the MPS in this situation if the above is true. Seems akin to disconnecting the fuel pump while the engine is running to try and determine if there is an issue with the pump not delivering enough fuel.

I'm also betting that a rebuilt MPS that is properly calibrated for Robson51's engine will solve the issue. An MPS that only holds vacuum for a minute could cause all of the issues described.

Pulling the vacuum hose from the mps causes a full-rich scenario, like if the diaphragm wouldn't hold any vacuum (which is why that 2 second test would have said a lot if it didn't change things). Correct, it should not run (unless there was a major vacuum leak below the flap in the throttle body). I was just going off the phrase "won't hold a vacuum" before I learned it was over a minute. I guess the semantics hold vs. pull were key. Hopefully the replacement MPS does the trick.
Bleyseng
QUOTE(thelogo @ Sep 16 2020, 03:18 PM) *

Stop me if you've heard this one ( i know you haven't)

A priest , a cop , and a witchdoctor walk into a bar sheeplove.gif

The priest says . anybody know how to fix a 914 with djet
The cop says those cant still be around . all have broken down or caught on fire. And even if they were still around nobody go's thru all that hassel for 81 horsepower

The witchdoctor says hey ill take a look . but pray for me

The preist says . i gave up praying and started drinking a long time ago . thats why im in a bar . ill just get some carbs instead sheeplove.gif so i wont always be operating on a wing and a prayer as djet although lasting well past its intended lifetime is no longer worth saving screwy.gif stirthepot.gif


I had Dual Dells on my car when I bought it in 1995 and that's what started me to install Djet back on the car as I couldn't stand the damn carbs.
Rand
logoman loves to stir the carb pot. I get it, it's his thing. Kinda stupid in modern times, and moreso by the post. But hey, to each their own.
When I was driving from sea level to Sierra summits, in all temps... I loved my djet. Robson will love his too.
Bleyseng
My has run so well since 1997 I can't bring myself to switch over to MS or some other more modern EFI. Even with cam changes and head improvements its been easy to adjust. I probably leave some hp on the table but its plenty the way it is now.
Rand
QUOTE(Bleyseng @ Sep 16 2020, 07:35 PM) *

My has run so well since 1997 I can't bring myself to switch over to MS or some other more modern EFI. Even with cam changes and head improvements its been easy to adjust. I probably leave some hp on the table but its plenty the way it is now.


thumb3d.gif

Nor should you. With a stock cam, you know you aren't leaving hp on the table. I guess some mega expensive options could fine tune it better. But the point is, all better than carbs when you consider the variety of conditions.

Carbs rock when tuned for specific full engine builds at specific altitudes, yada. But carbs are stupid and have to have manual changes that nobody wants to do when they have to deal with those changes. EFI just handles it. I know, preaching to the choir... well to those who can sing.

Sorry this got off topic.
bobforman
Try George at Porbug in Edmonds.
Bleyseng
There is also Denny Akers Porsche on Capital Hill.
rjames
@Robson51 Hopefully the rebuilt and recalibrated MPS will fix things and no adjustments will be necessary.
If the car runs rough after getting the MPS back, I'd recommend getting the tools to adjust the MPS from Tangerine Racing and installing an AFR gauge to dial it in.

Robson51
QUOTE(bobforman @ Sep 16 2020, 10:39 PM) *

Try George at Porbug in Edmonds.


Thanks-that's someone I haven't heard of.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2020 Invision Power Services, Inc.