Just another home build 2056 upgrade...but this one is mine!, Redux THrē: It's been so FUN lets do it again..... Options

[rfinegan]

intake valve

[rfinegan]

push rod (bent)

[rfinegan]

The other head is not a s bad but the same thing happened (same Lobe?)


here is the Brass/bronze oil slurry?

[rfinegan]

I will know more as I inspect the lower end in the AM

IS it possible the Howling dry bearing noise is the valve guide? possible too tight? Causing a tight valve not to close and hitting the piston as it comes up and is hanging open OR bending the the push rod as it tries to open the valve ? It did stall the engine


Lower end spins freely with the heads remove. One hand on the Fly wheel. IT will almost free wheels but it does have ring drag


What Do YA'll think is going on here? All theories welcome .o38 deck and 465 lift. I did check Piston to valve clearance and multiple valve lifts and recall it being good


IT will get fixed, but do not want a repeat performance

[barefoot]

Did you check for valve to piston clearance during the build ?
flat top pistons may not have sufficient valve relief
My pistons had fly cut relief.
I'm using WEB 494 cam with 0.465 valve lift. no problem

[rfinegan]

Case is split and checking bearings for dry bearing noise!

Checked the end play of the crank . This will confirm thrust bearing condition is ok



Bearing looked good too see video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHNoAnZ8rxE


Oil pump is out and cover had a little wear on the cover by the drive gear shaft. Sharp edge will get dressed down

[rfinegan]

here is the pump and cover:

[rfinegan]

@barefoot

Did you check for valve to piston clearance during the build ?
flat top pistons may not have sufficient valve relief
My pistons had fly cut relief.
I'm using WEB 494 cam with 0.465 valve lift. no problem

How deep of a fly cut did you have put in? I have it apart and would be a EZ fix to ensure it does not happen again. OR CC volume would be helpful

thanks

Robert

Also IF fly cut I can swap the cam to larger if needed later....

[BeatNavy]

Robert, this sucks (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sad.gif) Sorry to see you having to tear down the engine after all the work, but you're attacking the problem with determination.

It looks like a valve interfered on the surface of the piston. In reference to barefoot's question, one technique used to verify clearance is to put some substance like playdo on the piston surface, install the heads, and then rotate the engine through a cycle. Inspecting the playdo afterwards can help confirm that you have sufficient clearance between valve face and piston surface. I can't recall if you did something like that before final assembly. If you don't have sufficient clearance you'd need cylinder shims.

I hope that makes sense.

[ddire333]

Dam sorry to hear that has happened, all seemed to be going so well. hope you get it solved without too much heart ache

[rfinegan]

pulled the connecting rods for an inspection of the bearings as seen here:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCmZH5kp3v8


Any one have an opinion of the condition of the lower end after break in and less that 100 miles?

I have never been in a fresh rebuild after only a few runs

[930cabman]

Never good news, but keep your head down and do the detective work as necessary. It looks as though the valves/pistons had contact, hence the bent push rods. Also, oil pump appears not correct. Best of luck with the repairs.

[rfinegan]

Thank you every one who commented on the 2056 FAIL

Bottom end looks like everything is in good shape. Unless some on chimes in with comments on a failure i did not see I am going to reassemble the bottom end

The plan for the heads is to send them out to Gorge at EMW to get them ready to put back on. While I'm at it, I will send theKB pistons out with the heads and have them cut for valve reliefs . This is cheep insurance to keep this form happening again. and adult the rev limiter to about 6k...IM not making any power up above that. Double springs are good for way above that...so, Sounds like a good plan?

COST

2 push rods
2 Intake valves 44
Oil
Filter
assemble lube
Curl sealer
Piston Fly cuts
Weld 2 cracks in head by push rods. Bent pushups cam off rocker and punched through head


All in all, cheaper than the fix to my neighbors new F450 after hitting a deer at 70 mph
bumper 650
brackets 100
DYI

I guest Stuff happens, you just have to roll with it, fix it, and move on.. Things can always be a lot worse. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[rfinegan]

@930cabman

Never good news, but keep your head down and do the detective work as necessary. It looks as though the valves/pistons had contact, hence the bent push rods. Also, oil pump appears not correct. Best of luck with the repairs.

The pump is a type one 30 mm Shadeck modified for T4 from the type 4 store...if its good enough for Jake......

[barefoot]

@barefoot

Did you check for valve to piston clearance during the build ?
flat top pistons may not have sufficient valve relief
My pistons had fly cut relief.
I'm using WEB 494 cam with 0.465 valve lift. no problem

How deep of a fly cut did you have put in? I have it apart and would be a EZ fix to ensure it does not happen again. OR CC volume would be helpful

thanks

Robert

Also IF fly cut I can swap the cam to larger if needed later....

Here's image of my pistons, did not measure flycuts, sorry.

[BeatNavy]

I went back and looked at your thread and it looks like you had a deck height of .037. That should be sufficient (although most 1st timers shoot for an even .040 minimum). How did you measure that? You shouldn't have to have a relief cut in the pistons if you have a good, confirmed deck height measurement. Just keep in mind that relief will increase your combustion chamber and lower your overall CR.

I would also believe that the lower end is probably ok.

Whatever you end up doing, good luck!

[rfinegan]

@BeatNavy

I think I have a video of the Deck height...

I used a dial indicator on a magnetic base to measure. Used a .100 parallel to find the zero on the indicator and then run the piston up to TDC or the smallest reading.
Smallest reading - .100= Deck height

Also reality check of a straight edge and feeler gage, gave the same value.

I went back and looked at your thread and it looks like you had a deck height of .037. That should be sufficient (although most 1st timers shoot for an even .040 minimum). How did you measure that? You shouldn't have to have a relief cut in the pistons if you have a good, confirmed deck height measurement. Just keep in mind that relief will increase your combustion chamber and lower your overall CR.

I would also believe that the lower end is probably ok.

Whatever you end up doing, good luck!

[Cairo94507]

Oh man, I am so sorry to see you having to go through this after all your work. I like that you remain determined (immediately) to resolve this and get her back on the road. Good luck and I hope she is running again very soon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)

[barefoot]

What happened? I had Ben here on Tuesday and he too drove the car for a short spin and it was driving out fine...Like the video. I put about 20 mile on her and is now about 100 miles total and did a fresh oil change just before.

2 problems under investigation

1) Heavy spark knock from time to time after spirited driving. Happens on over geared low RPM on tip in of throttle . not so much on down shift. Maybe lean carb or sticking weights in Malory ?

2) Heard what sounded like a dry bearing howl on idle that started to pull the engine down to a stall. put a few revs to here and noise went away This happened 2 times


...but every things seems to be pretty good till THIS:

Pulled the distributor on Thursday night to see it its sticking.. Pulled it apart and weights was just a little sticky but springs back k OK.. cleaned and lubed and reduced the mechanical advance to about 18*... SO 10 initial + 18 mechanical =28.. I was about 30 before. Maybe this will help. Installed and set up...but will not start. I tried lots of things but only popping.. IT tuns out I must have clock the advance plate 180* off?

YEP went out today at lunch and flipped the plate and installed. Started right up
set initial timing to 10* seem to be running OK...Went to check the timing at 3k

I increased the engine speed to 3k and started to set timing light to 28. Before I could find the mark, the engines startle clanging and clacking like somethings was loose in the valve train. Then that howl can back and pulled the engine to a stall .Restarted and engine had a miss fire turned out to be #3 and oil leak under car.. been dry to this point and now puddles

I pulled the valve cover and confirmed that the #3 intake valve was not moving and was stuck open. and pushrod was bent

Pulled Engine
Pulled head
Valve smacked the piston and bent intake valve. WTF! 3k is not floating the valves with double springs and rev limiter @ 6500. Never hit rev limiter at 6500

WELL in in this far, its getting bulled down to see if a spun bearing or something is causing the Howl.
I pulled the other head and Guess WHAt? Same thing. #1 intake kissed the head, looks like one time and bent the push rod and broke a pieces of the head by the push rod tube(it was bent)off the rocker

I noticed oil in the cylinder 1 with brass of bronze flakes and in the combustion chamber. This is odd as I just changed the oil and no metallic seen only the moly beack in lube( pretty good investigation for 4 hrs)

Something really strange here, can't imagine vale float at 3K rpm & valves should be almost closed anytime the piston is anywhere near TDC. Only thing I can think of is If somehow the dual springs weren't seated properly and coil jammed and pushrod got bent then causing valves to hang open.
Really far out situations, only badly mis-indexed cam, or way off lash adjustment otherwise in play, but the engine certainly would not run under either of these conditions. Can't imagine that the camshaft is mis-ground as both collisions occurred off same lobe ????
Any other thoughts here ???

[ChrisFoley]

Those valve marks look like repeated hard contact.
If all the other setup dimensions were correct, you just didn't provide adequate valve/piston clearance.
When I set up an engine for a new cam, I replace my valve springs with rocker spacer springs and rock the engine near top dead center while repeatedly poking the valve against the piston. At some position before or after TDC, depending on which valve, it will reach the closest approach point. It's easy to measure piston/valve clearance from the outside that way.
I wouldn't go less than .080" and probably not less than .120" on intakes in most applications.
BTW, you can create the pockets you need with a hand held cutoff wheel worn down to valve head diameter. The location is well laid out already. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)