 Vortex generators |
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| retrotech |
 Jun 12 2006, 11:46 PM
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#21
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retrotech  Group: Members Posts: 470 Joined: 2-November 03 From: Mosier, Oregon Member No.: 1,302  |
QUOTE(sww914 @ Jun 12 2006, 10:30 PM)  They're cute! Unusual observation for a Race Forum, reponse? |
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| sww914 |
Jun 14 2006, 08:58 PM
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#22
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Advanced Member Group: Members Posts: 2,439 Joined: 4-June 06 Member No.: 6,146 Region Association: None |
They look cool, I hope they have some benefit.
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| Rough_Rider |
Jun 15 2006, 08:50 AM
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#23
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Smurf Zone Group: Members Posts: 525 Joined: 16-August 04 From: Beaverton, OR Member No.: 2,547 |
So any word on the track testing?? Faster slower or just
There seems to be a couple of potential solutions, Subie rear window diverter, Mitsu vanes & these vortex generators. I wonder if any really work in our targa configuration? |
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| Joe Ricard |
Jun 15 2006, 09:50 AM
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#24
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CUMONIWANNARACEU Group: Members Posts: 6,811 Joined: 5-January 03 From: Gautier, MS Member No.: 92 |
Where can I find the Mitubishi vanes? at least a picture.
Subie window diverter? I imagine something in the middle size wise. Then test it old school tape a bunch of yarn on the deck lid and up the duck tail fin. I am sure the caw catcher air dam make my car more like a brick through the air anyway. |
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| race914 |
Jun 19 2006, 08:54 AM
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#25
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73 914-4 Group: Members Posts: 1,006 Joined: 31-October 05 From: Nipomo, California (Central Coast) Member No.: 5,027 Region Association: Central California |
Vortex Generator test this weekend!
Running Friday-Sunday @ Buttonwillow and will be running stock & the 'vortex' top to get lap times. Should be fun if the 4 holds up in 100 degree plus heat! |
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| Trekkor |
Jun 21 2006, 12:17 AM
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#26
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
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| Joe Ricard |
Jun 21 2006, 09:12 AM
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#27
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CUMONIWANNARACEU Group: Members Posts: 6,811 Joined: 5-January 03 From: Gautier, MS Member No.: 92 |
I was searching around and found Vortex generators used on airplanes.
They however wer putting them on the leading edge of the wing in an effort to keep air flow against the control surfaces. Little bitty things not more than an inch high and 2-3 inches long. My point is I guess the results or affesct depends on where you place it. |
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| race914 |
 Jun 26 2006, 08:53 AM
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#28
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73 914-4 Group: Members Posts: 1,006 Joined: 31-October 05 From: Nipomo, California (Central Coast) Member No.: 5,027 Region Association: Central California |
Results are in! 914 Vortex Generator Test, 6/23-25 Buttonwillow Raceway, Track Configuration #1, Clockwise Subjective results: Observation #1: Substantial difference in the rear end feel going clockwise around the Riverside turn. Previously the rear would get very 'light' and start twitching around through this turn, limiting throttle to about 50% in 5th. With the vortex generators I could actually feel the rear end 'squat' over 100 and could keep about 90-95% throttle through this turn! Appears that the vortex generators are helping reduce the air turbulence behind the back window and getting some air flow to the rear spoiler. Observation #2: Previously would only have to 'lift' exiting Riverside to make the R to L transition going up to Lost Hills. With the increased exit speed from Riverside, this is now a 'brake' (a 'tap' is not enough! Almost went farming the first time through (IMG:style_emoticons/default/blink.gif) ) I was not expecting this much difference. As a matter of fact with all of the feedback on why this wouldn't work, I was wondering if I would notice any difference at all. I'm very happy with the results (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Objective results: Times showed a 1/2 second improvement, or about 6 car lengths through this section. I'm sure there is more out there as I work with this new setup. Summary: Even if the times did not improve I'd keep the vortex generators just for the increased stability and confidence in high speed handling. The rear end skating was too much 'excitement' for me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/ohmy.gif) Question now is, will the increased drag slow me down on other tracks? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) More info on the AirTabs I used at: http://www.airtab.com/ Hope this test and results was of value to some of you! |
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| Trekkor |
Jun 26 2006, 09:06 AM
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#29
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I do things... Group: Members Posts: 7,809 Joined: 2-December 03 From: Napa, Ca Member No.: 1,413 Region Association: Northern California |
Thanks for the update.
I would like to try them. Are they adhesive applied? Removable? Thanks, again. KT |
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| race914 |
Jun 26 2006, 09:23 AM
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#30
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73 914-4 Group: Members Posts: 1,006 Joined: 31-October 05 From: Nipomo, California (Central Coast) Member No.: 5,027 Region Association: Central California |
QUOTE(trekkor @ Jun 26 2006, 08:06 AM) Thanks for the update. I would like to try them. Are they adhesive applied? Removable? Thanks, again. KT Hey KT, They come with double sided adhesive tape. Just a peel and stick installation. Definitely worth the $27.50. However I'm still wondering what the effect will be for the tracks where I did not have high speed issues. Buttonwillow is the only track I've run so far where there is a 5th gear sweeper. Most are just straights at that speed where the car was ok without the vortex generators.... Greg |
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| Chris Pincetich |
Jun 26 2006, 12:18 PM
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#31
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B-) Group: Members Posts: 2,082 Joined: 3-October 05 From: Point Reyes Station, CA Member No.: 4,907 Region Association: Northern California |
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smilie_pokal.gif) Awesome. They *should* increase top speed too by reducing all that drag in the rear end....keep us posted as you get more experience! Who's going to build a targa top with the smaller vortex fins??? (like on the Evo and another, yellow 914 racer I've seen a photo of) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/beerchug.gif)
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| race914 |
Jun 26 2006, 01:25 PM
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#32
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73 914-4 Group: Members Posts: 1,006 Joined: 31-October 05 From: Nipomo, California (Central Coast) Member No.: 5,027 Region Association: Central California |
The AirTab site has a new photo showing airflow off of a 'square back' roof configuration . Good pic of how it helps get air down to the rear spoiler on a 914..
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| byndbad914 |
Jun 26 2006, 09:01 PM
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#33
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shoehorn and some butter - it fits Group: Members Posts: 1,547 Joined: 23-January 06 From: Broomfield, CO Member No.: 5,463 Region Association: None |
Greg - it's good to hear they were working for you. Not to be too much of a devil's advocate, but did you swap the roof with the stock one from the Orange car to see if you could directly correlate the advantage being the tabs? Just asking as you mentioned you planned to do this...
This rules out any advantages possibly gained by track conditions that day v. previous days you have been there (tires stuck better, less/more wind velocity at a different direction, etc). I think they are bitchin' and intend to get some for my car, but just wondering if you did a direct comparison within the same day with/without. |
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| TimT |
Jun 26 2006, 10:03 PM
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#34
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retired Group: Members Posts: 4,033 Joined: 18-February 03 From: Wantagh, NY Member No.: 313 |
Im going to buy some...
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| race914 |
Jun 27 2006, 08:48 AM
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#35
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73 914-4 Group: Members Posts: 1,006 Joined: 31-October 05 From: Nipomo, California (Central Coast) Member No.: 5,027 Region Association: Central California |
QUOTE(byndbad914 @ Jun 26 2006, 08:01 PM) Greg - it's good to hear they were working for you. Not to be too much of a devil's advocate, but did you swap the roof with the stock one from the Orange car to see if you could directly correlate the advantage being the tabs? Just asking as you mentioned you planned to do this... This rules out any advantages possibly gained by track conditions that day v. previous days you have been there (tires stuck better, less/more wind velocity at a different direction, etc). I think they are bitchin' and intend to get some for my car, but just wondering if you did a direct comparison within the same day with/without. Good question! I did try both tops. With the stock top the rear end still gets light and twitchs. Next experiment is to see what happens to my times at tracks without a high speed sweeper. I'm thinking I might need to use the stock top at Laguna, Thunderhill, etc. if the extra drag of air to the rear spoiler slows me down. Probably only need the vortex generators at Buttonwillow, California Speedway, etc. Let me know how they work for you |
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| byndbad914 |
Jun 27 2006, 05:46 PM
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#36
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shoehorn and some butter - it fits Group: Members Posts: 1,547 Joined: 23-January 06 From: Broomfield, CO Member No.: 5,463 Region Association: None |
QUOTE(race914 @ Jun 27 2006, 07:48 AM) Good question! I did try both tops. With the stock top the rear end still gets light and twitchs. Next experiment is to see what happens to my times at tracks without a high speed sweeper. I'm thinking I might need to use the stock top at Laguna, Thunderhill, etc. if the extra drag of air to the rear spoiler slows me down. Probably only need the vortex generators at Buttonwillow, California Speedway, etc. Let me know how they work for you It will be a few months before I have my car back together, but I have 2 tops and will have a huge rear wing at roof height. I intend to try and see the difference on Willow thru T2 and especially T8 sweepers in terms of how they help/hurt airflow to my wing. I have never had a wing before to begin with, let alone tune the airflow to it. Considering the big difference they seem to make for you, I suspect that they may even reduce overall drag for you. The tabs add a little drag by punching into the air, but the fact they are apparently combatting the mess that typically happens in the area behind the rear window that wants to lift the back up, they may actually reduce overall drag. Hence why they work for semi trailers to begin with - they drag thru the air but fix the vacuum behind the rear that sucks the truck backwards, hence reducing overall drag and increasing mileage. For us, screw the mileage - we hold power constant (WOT (IMG:style_emoticons/default/burnout.gif) ) and go faster. At least that is the plan, right (IMG:style_emoticons/default/laugh.gif) Thanks for letting us all know how it worked out! This may help a lot of us fellow racers quite a bit. I removed my huge spoiler and went to a wing because of lift issues - maybe the spoiler would have been enough if it was actually working. Too late for me find out... BTW - nice looking car too! Both you and Trekkor have 2 of my favorite, great looking "non-flared" cars. |
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| 914forme |
Jan 9 2007, 06:06 AM
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#37
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Times a wastin', get wrenchin'! Group: Members Posts: 3,896 Joined: 24-July 04 From: Dayton, Ohio Member No.: 2,388 Region Association: None 
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Anybody tossed them under the car, say in front of the engine on each side and notice a reduction in head temps? If it works well up top, it should work down under so to speak.
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| Aaron Cox |
Jan 9 2007, 11:32 AM
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#38
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Professional Lawn Dart Group: Retired Admin Posts: 24,541 Joined: 1-February 03 From: OC Member No.: 219 Region Association: Southern California |
QUOTE(914forme @ Jan 9 2007, 04:06 AM) Anybody tossed them under the car, say in front of the engine on each side and notice a reduction in head temps? If it works well up top, it should work down under so to speak. essentially what the "flaps" do..... you thinking these would improve over the stock flaps? AA (IMG:style_emoticons/default/idea.gif) |
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| 914forme |
Jan 9 2007, 12:58 PM
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#39
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Times a wastin', get wrenchin'! Group: Members Posts: 3,896 Joined: 24-July 04 From: Dayton, Ohio Member No.: 2,388 Region Association: None
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Possibly YES, looking for any advantage I can find, if it helps at 7.50 a side I would do it in a heart beat, I have the stock flaps installed, but will be switching to a bigger engine, and want the additional cooling help any place I can get it.
I know Joe Ricard mentioned it somewhere between the 27 914 boards we now live on, but I have not seen numbers. You know with out flaps my head temps where 345, with them I am now running 325, with vortex generators, I now run head temps at 0 degrees Kelvin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Absolute zero could be fun brings up a whole new set of problems thou. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But I could stop paying to have parts cryroed! |
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| Aaron Cox |
Jan 9 2007, 01:01 PM
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#40
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Professional Lawn Dart Group: Retired Admin Posts: 24,541 Joined: 1-February 03 From: OC Member No.: 219 Region Association: Southern California |
QUOTE(914forme @ Jan 9 2007, 10:58 AM) Possibly YES, looking for any advantage I can find, if it helps at 7.50 a side I would do it in a heart beat, I have the stock flaps installed, but will be switching to a bigger engine, and want the additional cooling help any place I can get it. I know Joe Richard mentioned it somewhere between the 27 914 boards we now live on, but I have not seen numbers. You know with out flaps my head temps where 345, with them I am now running 325, with vortex generators, I now run head temps at 0 degrees Kelvin (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Absolute zero could be fun brings up a whole new set of problems thou. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) But I could stop paying to have parts cryroed! from a science/engineering standpoint.... thats way funny LOL |
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