Anyone tried an aircooled Flat 8, With two fours? Options

[Bleyseng]

screw two motors! put four of them together!

[redshift]

QUOTE (Mueller @ Jan 28 2005, 08:13 PM)

considering thier 100 hp /4 motors cost $6000, I'd hate to see the price of that /8 motor (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) they do have some cool stuff...

Uhh... excuse me, but doesn't everyone's /4 run about $6k?

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)

Sounds CHEAP for FLYING.


M

[Bleyseng]

I am hoping to squeeze by with $5000,
buying that Passat stole the rest of my milk money!

[Jake Raby]

Here it cost 6K for a stock rebuild, but you can add 50HP for another 2500 in most cases.

5000 will go a long way really soon, especially in the beginning!

[r_towle]

how would you do oiling on the rear engine???

Seems like you would have to eliminate the oil pump on the rear engine and connect the two oiling systems in some way...

Rich

[Brando]

or connect them at the cranks...

if you're going that far, might as well go the route of merging two 911 cases...

[SpecialK]

Screw pistons...........someone stick a Huey Turbine in a 914 (hey...I saw an Allison V12 in a Opel GT once....."point and shoot" as someone put it)

[BigD9146gt]

QUOTE (Jake Raby @ Jan 28 2005, 01:47 PM)

Nah.... Can't make a statement with a 911 engine! Plus, they cost too damn much to play with at this level.. I'm using 964 heads though.. Engine will go in a mid engine 1961 VW Single cab truck, under the bed.....

911's cost too much to play with at this level??? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/chairfall.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/laugh.gif)

1) What would two used long blocks go for? $2000?... ya, possibly more, but my friend just picked up a complete 69 911E all original with minimal rust for $1000. Deals are out there if you keep your eyes open, and thats what we're talking about.

2) If you charge $6000 for your base motor, and i was paying you to build a flat 8, you would have to charge $50,000 to even think about braking even. Odds are, if someone is going to be making something of this magnitude, they would't be paying you or anyone else to do it, cause for that price lots of other things could be aquired.

3) Lets think about how the factory made larger motors. The 908 and 917's for example, have very close relations to the 901 engine being over head cams, single heads, etc. Porsche and his crew were very brite, and if they chose a design similar to the 901 for their larger motors, i'm gonna say it wasn't because they listed all the options on the table and played spin the bottle to choose? Think about whats already done? Dry sump, single heads-better flowing, overhead cams, stronger crank, just a better-overall design from the get-go.

4)This is a project for someone who can do all their own work (like you and me).

Jake, i respect your work, but stick to what you know. Last time you were on the 911 bird forum, you started out high and mighty, but had zero answers. If you actually worked with 6's, you wouldn't say what you do about them... and i wouldn't be typing right now.

Again, you are a phenominal VW aircooled 4 cylinder guru.

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

Yeah, deals are out there if you wanna WAIT for them and are constantly searching for them (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) Anyway...

After reading about the Ferrari's and Lambo's that have eight plus cylinders and how folks drool over the carbed versions of these engines I think it would be something neat. Heck, you wouldn't need monster big jugs, either, as these cars didn't, just lots o' cylinders. My initial guess would be getting two balanced STOCK engines and make sure the timing 'tween the two engines was spot on, then mate 'em (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif) From what I read, the older Ferrari eight cylinders run like two, four cylinder engines mated together, which also contributes to their distinct sound. I'm guessing their cylinder firing order is different than American V8's.

Now, getting a vehicle to accept the engine is another issue. But from my point of view I think it'd be neat and who gives a crap if it's already been done before? If you were successfull and DOCUMENTED it so others could follow you could develope a cult following (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

[jwalters]

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/biggrin.gif) Just do like the fiero / lambo conversion guys---stretch that puppy and put a flat 12 lambo in it!!!

THAT would be kool to say the least---- (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool_shades.gif)

[r_towle]

ok,

When if any was the earliest time that an overhaed cam was used on a /6 motor???

I have never taken one apart....yet...

Rich

[DuckRyder]

Thinking out loud:

Couldn't you slice one case disecting it between the bores (that would require an angle or zig zag) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sawzall-smiley.gif)

then slice the ends off of the other case to insert it in between the front and back of the other two halves. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/welder.gif)

That make sense? (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif)

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/burnout.gif)

[r_towle]

QUOTE (DuckRyder @ Jan 30 2005, 04:18 PM)

Thinking out loud: Couldn't you slice one case disecting it between the bores (that would require an angle or zig zag)  :sawzall: then slice the ends off of the other case to insert it in between the front and back of the other two halves.  :welder: That make sense?  :blink: (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)  :burnout:

ok, ill bite, why would i do that versus cutting the back off one and the front off the other.......

BTW It looks like the oil galleys can line up if it is cut in the correct place.

I would go with a dry sump.

Rich

[BigD9146gt]

Rich, before i start in on Air Cool'd, the 901 (911) was an overhead cam from the get-go. They had some drawings for a single cam like the TIV, but it didn't prove itself like the overhead cams. The first 911 was in '65, but the project started in about '60. It wasn't set in stone till '63 or so, because Porsche wasn't sure if they wanted to go with a 356 looking car or not. Granted the 911 is close to the 356, they had other designs that they were looking at. Also, there was the 356 Carrera engine, which was the 4 cam motor back in the early '50s (550 spider). They the 901 had its first twin cam race engine in '67 for a few of the 911R's, which were 2.0L with around 200bhp.

QUOTE

Yeah, deals are out there if you wanna WAIT for them and are constantly searching for them (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif)  Anyway...

Ok, whats your (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/rolleyes.gif) point? Isn't that the point of a "good deal", or are we thinking like typical americans who want a good deal 365 days with no effert or quality?

QUOTE

After reading about the Ferrari's and Lambo's that have eight plus cylinders and how folks drool over the carbed versions of these engines I think it would be something neat.  Heck, you wouldn't need monster big jugs, either, as these cars didn't, just lots o' cylinders.  My initial guess would be getting two balanced STOCK engines and make sure the timing 'tween the two engines was spot on, then mate 'em (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)   From what I read, the older Ferrari eight cylinders run like two, four cylinder engines mated together, which also contributes to their distinct sound.  I'm guessing their cylinder firing order is different than American V8's.

Ya, its called a 944 and a 928... The only difference is the crank and block. Same heads, pistons, rods, etc. But just because it has half the cylinders doesn't make it easy to make over. I too don;t know what the firing order is, but a 6/8 cylinder engine is WAY more naturally balanced than a 4 cylinder engine. In fact, the 6/8/12 cylinder engines are the the best for being balanced.

QUOTE

Now, getting a vehicle to accept the engine is another issue.  But from my point of view I think it'd be neat and who gives a crap if it's already been done before?  If you were successfull and DOCUMENTED it so others could follow you could develope a cult following (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/cool.gif)

Cults are for those who like Coolaid. If a project like this ever made it to production, there would be very few who would undertake it. Just like Mr. Polopulus (sp), the guy who took the 901 and chopped two cylinders off and made a 4 cylinder for the 356 croud. The motor is around $15000, but that croud spends more money than the 914 croud.

I'm not by any means saying use the 901 because its expesive, but to the same measure, don't use a TIV because its cheap. Your going to be spending money either way you look at it, so why not start with a better designed engine and parts?

[DuckRyder]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 30 2005, 08:37 PM)

QUOTE (DuckRyder @ Jan 30 2005, 04:18 PM) Thinking out loud: Couldn't you slice one case disecting it between the bores (that would require an angle or zig zag)  :sawzall: then slice the ends off of the other case to insert it in between the front and back of the other two halves.  :welder: That make sense?  :blink: (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/driving.gif)  :burnout: ok, ill bite, why would i do that versus cutting the back off one and the front off the other....... BTW It looks like the oil galleys can line up if it is cut in the correct place. I would go with a dry sump. Rich

Hey, I said I was thinking out loud. (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/unsure.gif)

I thought that it would match up better that way - possibly.

It has been a while (thank god) since I've seen one bare though.

[URY914]

Here's what you need...

[redshift]

QUOTE (Special_K @ Jan 29 2005, 07:18 AM)

Screw pistons...........someone stick a Huey Turbine in a 914 (hey...I saw an Allison V12 in a Opel GT once....."point and shoot" as someone put it)

That car was on Ebay..

LOL Paul! Is that your new class ride?



M

[r_towle]

QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 30 2005, 06:09 PM)

Here's what you need...

looks kinda heavy to me.

I know you looked at it and said, hey he could make it lighter if he did this and this and this....

Rich

[URY914]

QUOTE (r_towle @ Jan 30 2005, 06:14 PM)

QUOTE (URY914 @ Jan 30 2005, 06:09 PM) Here's what you need... looks kinda heavy to me. I know you looked at it and said, hey he could make it lighter if he did this and this and this.... Rich

I've been working like crazy on my car. I gotta get it back together enough to take it to Sebring in two weeks to get it weighed. My day job and family keep getting in the way (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/sad.gif)

Paul

[Air_Cooled_Nut]

QUOTE

Ya, its called a 944 and a 928... The only difference is the crank and block. Same heads, pistons, rods, etc. But just because it has half the cylinders doesn't make it easy to make over. I too don;t know what the firing order is, but a 6/8 cylinder engine is WAY more naturally balanced than a 4 cylinder engine. In fact, the 6/8/12 cylinder engines are the the best for being balanced.

(IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/blink.gif) Okay, ya lost me. What's yer point? My bit on the Ferrari wasn't a suggestion of how to fire it but as to a contribution to its sound.

QUOTE

Cults are for those who like Coolaid[sic]. If a project like this ever made it to production, there would be very few who would undertake it.

I meant it like people doing it themselves for fun, not to actually make a production engine that people would buy.

QUOTE

Your going to be spending money either way you look at it, so why not start with a better designed engine and parts?

I agree with this logic. But I guess my message was too subtle as I was thinking about the SOUND of a multi-cylinder, carbed air-cooled engine.

I'm not denying that a 901 engine is likely a better candidate from an engineering standpoint so here, this one's on me (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/beer3.gif) (IMG:http://www.914world.com/bbs2/html/emoticons/smile.gif)